Article: New Tolls on National Roads?

marmurr1916

According to a report in today's Irish Times, the cabinet has approved a set of cost-cutting and tax-raising proposals worth around €500 million per year.

The tax-raising proposals include the introduction of tolls on national routes, the introduction of handling charges for people who don't pay their road tax online, and the scrapping of off-road declaration exemptions from road tax:

The measures, contained in a report by the Local Government Efficiency Review Group, and approved by the Cabinet at its meeting in Farmleigh on Wednesday, will be published today.

The group is informally called An Bord Snip Eile and is chaired by Pat McLoughlin, the former Health Service Executive (HSE) deputy chief executive and now chief executive of the Irish Payment Services Organisation. In all, it has made 106 recommendations totalling €511 million in efficiencies.

The group has also recommended that tolling charges be extended from motorways to national roads. It has argued this would be consistent with Government policy on the environment by incentivising road users to use other transport. It would also allow a stream of revenue for local councils to invest in local roads.

While the group has said the distribution of the tolling booths should be equitable, placing them on national roads as well as motorways would be seen as controversial and politically unpopular. The report has also suggested that a handling fee be introduced for processing motor tax payments that are made in person or by post rather than online. This, the report concluded, would recognise the much higher staff costs of manual processing.

It has also called for an end to the “off-the-road” facility in respect of motor tax, which allows car owners to self-declare vehicles as not in use.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2010/0723/1224275297847.html

I'm not totally against the idea of handling charges for people who don't pay their road tax online, although I think there should be exemptions and reductions for pensioners etc.

The introduction of tolls on national routes is going to be very unpopular. Which national routes are going to be targeted?

Most of them are nowhere near a high-enough standard to justify the payment of even modest tolls, and most of them have so many access points that toll-dodging would be relatively easy.

The only national route where I can see tolls being easy enough to implement in practice is the N18 between Limerick and the start of the M18 (close to junction with N19).

Presumably this also means an end to the toll-free status of the M9, and the introduction of tolls on some motorway section(s) of the N/M11.

Quite frankly, it's a daft idea, ill-thought out with little or no thought given to the likely consequences and the practical difficulties of implementation.

Stark

Well they're just recommendations so far. It also looks like the proposals are aimed at generating cash for local governments. Given that I'm told many TDs view local governments as parasites and given how politically unpopular the move to tolling existing national infrastructure would be, my money's on it not happening.

marmurr1916

Stark wrote: »

Well they're just recommendations so far. It also looks like the proposals are aimed at generating cash for local governments. Given that I'm told many TDs view local governments as parasites and given how politically unpopular the move to tolling existing national infrastructure would be, my money's on it not happening.

According to the report, the recommendations have been approved by the cabinet for implementation.

The report's headline is:

Cabinet approves more road tolls in €500m cost-saving plan

Amtmann

The only sections of non-motorway routes that can realistically be tolled in the conventional sense are... short stretches of HQDC?

I think what they might have in mind is something rather different to conventional tolling, such as a levy imposed per car on the basis of mileage done per year. Granted, plazas might be placed on the M18, M9 and M11; but honestly, where else could they go (bar, maybe, the Cork South Ring Road)?

Son of Stupido

If they want to get more tolls then they need a fairer system, such as tolling per km, as is the case in Italy, for example.

It would mean toll booths at every exit, so quite a bit of redesign, but it is the fairer system.

At least people pay for what they drive, and the government can set the price.

Problem is nobody has the balls to implement such a change!

marmurr1916

Furet wrote: »

The only sections of non-motorway routes that can realistically be tolled in the conventional sense are... short stretches of HQDC?

I think what they might have in mind is something rather different to conventional tolling, such as a levy imposed per car on the basis of mileage done per year.

Surely that's already catered for by taxes on fuel? The more you drive, the less fuel-efficiently you drive, the more fuel you use and the more tax you pay.

If they're going to introduce a Dutch-style system, it'll effectively mean that all roads are tolled, not to mention the privacy implications....

Furet wrote: »

Granted, plazas might be placed on the M18, M9 and M11; but honestly, where else could they go (bar, maybe, the Cork South Ring Road)?

The only way they could toll the Cork SRR is to have barrier-free tolling like on the M50. If there was a physical toll plaza, the traffic congestion would be a nightmare. Any revenue from an SRR toll should be ringfenced to get rid of the Sarsfield Road and Bandon Road roundabouts, to add an extra traffic lane from the Lee Tunnel all the way to the junction with Sarsfield Road, plus junction improvements in the vicinity of the Mahon Point Shopping Centre.

Stark

Son of Stupido wrote: »

If they want to get more tolls then they need a fairer system, such as tolling per km, as is the case in Italy, for example.

It would mean toll booths at every exit, so quite a bit of redesign, but it is the fairer system.

At least people pay for what they drive, and the government can set the price.

Problem is nobody has the balls to implement such a change!

Having toll booths at every exit would probably cost more money than it would make in terms of the personnel needed to man those booths. If we had barrier free tolling everywhere like we had on the M50, then it might be feasible.

veryangryman

Anyone missing an important point

It is illegal to toll a route already purchased with EU money

Not that it stopped them doing it to Watergrasshill

I think the 1c text tax would be far more lucrative, easy to implement and above all, acceptable

dubhthach

veryangryman wrote: »

I think the 1c text tax would be far more lucrative, easy to implement and above all, acceptable

Supposedly 6billion text messages sent a year in Ireland. 1c tax would net the gov 60million euro. almost as effective as the tax on second homes and you wouldn't have to chase people to get it as it's automatically on the bill.

Tech3

I'be mentioned several times that more routes will end up being tolled. The ones certain of that are: The M7 at Nenagh, The M9, M18 possibly on the the Gort-Tuam scheme as anywhere closer will be too near the tunnel toll. N25 possibly as there is a large amount of traffic on it at Cork it will need to be Barrier free though.

Jayuu

veryangryman wrote: »

Anyone missing an important point
I think the 1c text tax would be far more lucrative, easy to implement and above all, acceptable

Agreed. It also counts as a usage charge.

Realistically apart from the motorway network it simply isn't possible to barrier toll the current national network. There are too many alternative routes around any possible toll locations. There would be large costs and disruption involved with the building of the plazas. There would be all sort of charges of political bias in the locations and the negative publicity would be a public relations disaster for an already unpopular government.

Expect to see the M9 tolled though, probably at both ends as per the M3 and probably somewhere on the M18 as well.

Does anybody know if the governemnt can take a slice of the toll money currently collected or is there some way they can add an extra levy on the PPP companies who run the tolls? If they can do that then those companies can then pass on the charge to the motorist in the form of higher tolls. If this is possible then expect all the tolls to increase sometime in the near future.

marmurr1916

The AA are on the case:

Dear XXX–


Thanks for your email. I have to say this is an absolutely ridiculous idea. The notion of peppering the N-road network with tolls is absolutely ridiculous. I can’t say it strongly enough.


Even if we accept that they want to raise more money from motorists (which is the only purpose here) there are much more efficient ways of doing so. An extra cent per litre on petrol and diesel would raise more money for the exchequer than tolling the N-roads.


Your road safety point is also valid, and strengthens the case against this ridiculous idea.


The AA takes the view that this proposal has to be stopped in its tracks, immediately, and we are going to work very hard with the support of Irish motorists to do just that.


Regards,


Conor Faughnan

Director of Policy

Thanks to Super_Sonic on the Motors forum: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=67073763&postcount=34

BluntGuy

While the group has said the distribution of the tolling booths should be equitable, placing them on national roads as well as motorways would be seen as controversial and politically unpopular.

I'd add a few more rather unkind adjectives to that list.

This is an underthought reactionary idea that just won't work.

Did anyone stop for even 5 seconds to think about how much it would cost to implement, to run, to maintain. How will toll dodging be stopped? How much traffic uses the routes they are going to toll? And how on Earth is it going to incentivise people to use "other transport"? If by "other transport" they mean guzzling more petrol taking their cars on far more circuitous routes to avoid the toll, then perhaps.

marathont

Would it not be easier to put a few pence on fuel ?

ardmacha

I think the 1c text tax would be far more lucrative, easy to implement and above all, acceptable

There is nothing remotely acceptable about a tax on texts, which would be luddite proposal only found in the most backward of third world regimes. It was a complete disgrace that anyone suggested this. VAT is payable on mobile phone services and that should be that.

I doubt this toll proposal. With prices in NI as they are 10c could easily be added to diesel and a few cents on petrol.

The only tolls I see might be one around Newbridge to fund the widening of the M7 to 3 lanes.

A more useful charge would be a Singapore style charge in Dublin or other city centres. or make the M50 toll variable by time of day.

And of course all of this gymnastics is to ensure that even the biggest mansion won't have to pay a property tax.

Amtmann

Interview on RTE here: http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0723/economy_av.html

Pete_Cavan

Tolling N roads will not work for a number of reasons and I doubt it will happen. Tolls on all motorways is fair enough though, imo, so they should put barrier free tolls on M9 and M18 anyway and the M2 also. I cant understand why they didnt install barrier free tolls on the M3 when they were building it. The technology is obviously available and Im sure it would have been cheaper then building the toll booths, with there big steel and concrete structures - two extremely expensive building materials, plus the extra cost of the plaza - more lanes so bigger land take, more road pavement, surface, etc. And then theres the cost of the people in the booths.

The M50 is the most profitable road in the country and accounts for the vast majority of income from tolls every year (€96.5 million in 2009!). But with only one toll there must be a huge number of vehicles that use it every day but do not pay the toll. Why not introduce a second barrier free toll. Relax before you lose it and just hear me out. The second toll could be at junction 9 (with the N7). With the system they have in place (most of it done by computer) surely it would be too difficult to set it that you only get charged for one toll if you pass through both within say half an hour. So you would still pay the same €3 you currently pay even if you pass through both. But also a lot of people who currently pay nothing will have to pay €3 as well. Alternatiely, if that doesnt work, introduce two tolls but make both of them to €1.50 so you would still pay €3 for passing both tolls but more people would be contributing. What do people think?

Danno

What money was wasted in preparing this shyte report?

amen

considering we already pay road tax why should we now pay for access to roads we already pay to use?

ardmacha

What money was wasted in preparing this shyte report?

The report has some useful stuff on amalgamating local authorities. Instead of people talking about these sensible ideas there they've also included this off the wall stuff. McCarthy was careful to only have doable things in his report, some of these may not suit politically, but all made some sense. These guys obviously have no sense.

Zoney

This has to be one of the dumbest ideas from Fianna FAIL yet... even the existing tolls are a fairly dubious means of collecting money from taxpayers to finance projects (M50 toll is ridiculously inefficient - so much money spent on operating it), and tolling existing ordinary roads is hideously inefficient compared to just extra taxation. Taxing fuel is even better than a tax on road usage, as it taxation is related to consumption and in general, vehicles consuming more, are either travelling more or causing more wear to roads.

I am against taxing motorists more, but we probably have to live with it given the circumstances. This toll plan however is absolutely unacceptable.

Zebra3

veryangryman wrote: »

I think the 1c text tax would be far more lucrative, easy to implement and above all, acceptable

Why a tax on texts instead of phone calls?

What about those who need to text cos they're not able to talk/hear through a phone?

popebenny16

tolls on NPR's are such an off the wall notion that it is an obvious stalking horse for something else they have planned.

how could a toll on the N62 work, for example? one between every town? Sure go back to the 1700's build a wall on each town boundary and charge there? nuts. :rolleyes:

Stonewolf

ardmacha wrote: »

The report has some useful stuff on amalgamating local authorities. Instead of people talking about these sensible ideas there they've also included this off the wall stuff. McCarthy was careful to only have doable things in his report, some of these may not suit politically, but all made some sense. These guys obviously have no sense.

Maybe it's a tactic, in order to ensure the good stuff gets passed they included all sorts of rubbish so the politicians could say they made some decisions.

Danno

If they load on any more tax on motoring, it will become more attractive to sit at home on the dole than drive to work as people will have more money left in their pocket at the end of the week.

heyjude

This has all the hallmarks of a kite flying exercise, throw out a few crazy ideas for new tax raising ideas to the media, don't deny they are seriously being considered and then announce you've reconsidered and hit the old reliables again.

However, taken on face value, if tolling national roads is being considered, then it totally destroys the governments' long held defence for the introduction of tolls on our road network, namely that they are being built by public private partnerships and the tolls fund the costs of building these roads or in the case of the M50, paying off the cost of buying out the owners of the toll booths. The national road network was built over many decades though, using money from the exchequer and in many cases, EU grant aid, so how can they justify, using their existing argument, introducing tolls of roads that have had no private involvement in funding their construction and which have in most cases being in existence for many years.

veryangryman wrote: »

Anyone missing an important point

It is illegal to toll a route already purchased with EU money

Hopefully this is true and the EU stop them, though I wouldn't bet on it. As I recall Vehicle Registration Tax was also against EU law, but the legal process is so slow, that they can get away with things for years, even if the EU seeks to stop them.

veryangryman wrote: »

I think the 1c text tax would be far more lucrative, easy to implement and above all, acceptable

Lucrative yes, easy to implement(not too sure, would it apply to visitors or only to Irish registered phones ? ), as for acceptable, well yes I can see how the government might see it that way. They have several thousand owners of second homes(age profile - mainly middle aged and older that aren't too happy paying tax on their second home) and you have billions of text messages each year, the majority sent by those under 30(an age group that historically vote in lower numbers), so you divert the tax from older voters to younger non-voters and children :rolleyes: Is levying taxes on children(under 18s) preferable ?

There was also speculation in the newspapers that among the other measures being considered is a doubling of the prescription charge for medical card holders from 50c to 1 Euro per prescription, which if implemented would represent a 100% increase or doubling of the fee, just a year after it was introduced. I'd be watchful that any toll charges on national roads or a text message tax would similarly be introduced at a low rate and once introduced, then be rapidly increased. So a 50c toll charge would become a 1 Euro charge in just a couple of years, while a 1c text tax would quickly become 5c.

Also, exactly how does introducing dozens/hundreds of extra road tolls throughout the country, fit in with a supposed policy of improving our national competitiveness ? Surely making it more expensive to move goods/people around the country is the opposite of what we need.

highlydebased

How many million would it cost to build toll plazas, staff and manage them? Before they even start turning a profit......madness.

Carawaystick

Neon-Circles wrote: »

How many million would it cost to build toll plazas, staff and manage them? Before they even start turning a profit......madness.

cui bono?

Roaches?
westlink

Zoney

Irish Times online have a poll on the proposal - weirdly it is currently 57% support at the moment. Even though some past polls have clearly shown the prevailing bias of Irish Times readership rather than general population, in this instance I have to suspect that something is amiss. Perhaps someone is gaming it for some reason?

JayeL

Surely a 5c tax on a litre of fuel would be a more equitable and stable form of getting more revenue?

People will just start avoiding all this shiny new infrastructure we needed years ago.

Besides, our petrol and diesel is on the cheaper side of the EU average so there's scope for a rise.

L1011

heyjude wrote: »

As I recall Vehicle Registration Tax was also against EU law, but the legal process is so slow, that they can get away with things for years, even if the EU seeks to stop them.

You recall wrong.

Many EU countries have identical taxes to VRT, its not just us, and its ENTIRELY legal.