Article: New Tolls on National Roads?

Motor tax, not road tax.

Danno

JayeL wrote: »

Besides, our petrol and diesel is on the cheaper side of the EU average so there's scope for a rise.

Kill one last competitive strand we have? We have feck all alternative in the country to go to work... why make it more expensive?

JayeL

People would give out about the price of fuel but still pay because they need to get around. But tolling roads would not affect everyone and lead to people going through towns and routes that were bypassed with good reason.

icdg

Tolling only works on limited-access routes like motorways. Doing it on normal roads is a logistical nightmare:

1) On the Irish network, which is very dense, they are too easy to get around. There will always be another way to go or a way to dodge the toll.

2) Access. There is private housing on almost every non-motorway route in the country, thanks to our rather lax planning controls. People living in these houses need a way out of them and shouldn't be hit with tolls just to get in and out of their home.

3) For reasons related to 2) it is very politically unpalatable.

It won't happen. Most you will possibly see is tolls on existing free motorways (yes, they do exist - the M2, M9, M11, M18, and M20 are all free). Consideration should possibly be given to one of the TWO motorways going to Waterford (M9/M11) being tolled, for instance.

Stark

icdg wrote: »

2) Access. There is private housing on almost every non-motorway route in the country, thanks to our rather lax planning controls. People living in these houses need a way out of them and shouldn't be hit with tolls just to get in and out of their home.

I beg to differ. Screw the feckers in the one off houses

ICE HOUSE

The whole idea of it just sickens me. Tax, Tax, Tax, Tax, Tax, Tax, Tax, Tax, Tax, Tax this, Tax that....... when is it going to stop??:mad::mad::mad:
This will mostly effect those already who are Taxed out of living in the cities where they work like Dublin for example and have no alternative but to commute from outside the city daily and use these roads to get to work. Now they want to Tax these roads.......Jesus.
Its just disgusting whats been allowed go on in this country.

steve-o

heyjude wrote: »

This has all the hallmarks of a kite flying exercise, throw out a few crazy ideas for new tax raising ideas to the media, don't deny they are seriously being considered and then announce you've reconsidered and hit the old reliables again.

It reeks of it. And it's already working...

marathont wrote: »

Would it not be easier to put a few pence on fuel ?

JayeL wrote: »

Surely a 5c tax on a litre of fuel would be a more equitable and stable form of getting more revenue?

Isn't it great how they can make a tax increase seem attractive?

JohnC.

icdg wrote: »

It won't happen. Most you will possibly see is tolls on existing free motorways (yes, they do exist - the M2, M9, M11, M18, and M20 are all free). Consideration should possibly be given to one of the TWO motorways going to Waterford (M9/M11) being tolled, for instance.

M11 doesn't go to Waterford Unless you are using the Ryanair definition of going "to" a place being over 60KM away. You could be most of the way up the M9 before you even get to the start of the M11 from Waterford.

Bards

Kahless wrote: »

M11 doesn't go to Waterford Unless you are using the Ryanair definition of going "to" a place being over 60KM away. You could be most of the way up the M9 before you even get to the start of the M11 from Waterford.

yep totally agree

http://www.aaireland.ie/routes_beta/

Enniscorthy (M11) is 59.71 KM from Waterford - 56 Minutes away

Cahir (M8) is 65KM from Waterford - 1Hour 6 Minutes away

so if people are assuming that the M11 serves waterford then surely they must also agree that the M8 serves Waterford too - after all there is just over 5 KM difference between the two routes???????????


this also screams of this old classic when asking for directions in Ireland "I wouldn't start from here if I was you, I'd go about 60 Km down the road then start my journey from there"

Stark

Dublin - Enniscorthy : 120km
Dublin - Cahir: 180km.

The Cahir route involves going 60km out of your way.

The total distance from Dublin - Waterford via Enniscorthy is 180km. The total distance using the M9 route is 165km so only 15km in the difference there. And of course that depends on what part of Dublin you're leaving from. For someone living in the south east of the city, the M11 route would be more attractive.

By the way, if you were to use the warped reasoning above, you could say that Paulstown - Waterford is 60km, therefore the M9 doesn't serve Waterford either...

JohnC.

Stark wrote: »

By the way, if you were to use the warped reasoning above, you could say that Paulstown - Waterford is 60km, therefore the M9 doesn't serve Waterford either...

The obvious difference being that you don't have to go to Paulstown to get to the M9. What a stupid comparison to make from someone who claims someone else is using warped reasoning. The M9 is right on the city's doorstep. The M11 is 60KM away by N road with lower speed limit and single lanes along the way. Like I said, you could be most of the way up the M9 in the hour it would take to get to the start of the M11.

invinciblePRSTV

Kahless wrote: »

The obvious difference being that you don't have to go to Paulstown to get to the M9. What a stupid comparison to make from someone who claims someone else is using warped reasoning. The M9 is right on the city's doorstep. The M11 is 60KM away by N road with lower speed limit and single lanes along the way. Like I said, you could be most of the way up the M9 in the hour it would take to get to the start of the M11.

And you've just proved the argument about the M9 being a waste of money by duplicating resources. How mad is it that the choice to build a new build 120km length M-way was taken when the area could easily have been accomodated via shorter new build connections to pre-existing M-ways.

Waterford could have been connected to Dublin via the M/N11. This alternative would have been significantly shorter in length to build then the M9 and also fulfilled strategic objectives of filling in the gaps on the M11 and delivered a bypass of Enniscorthy & brought M-way access closer to Rosslare super port.

Instead the M11, like other important national routes, which weren't lucky to benefit from the political patronage of the Celtic Tiger years are in the NRA project planning wasteland whilst the high cost and low trafficed M9 & N25 Bypass stand as testaments of our terrible transport & planning policies of the Ahern years.

Stark

Kahless wrote: »

The obvious difference being that you don't have to go to Paulstown to get to the M9. What a stupid comparison to make from someone who claims someone else is using warped reasoning.

Yes you do. Paulstown is between Dublin and Waterford along the M9, just as Enniscorthy is between Dublin and Waterford along the M11/N30/N25 route. Your argument seems to hinge purely on wanting a route that has the same road number on the whole of its length. If we're to follow that line of reasoning, then Waterford is 120km from Kilcullen, near the start of the M7. So it's nearer the M11 than it is the M7.

Kahless wrote: »

The M9 is right on the city's doorstep.

So is the N25..

Kahless wrote: »

The M11 is 60KM away by N road with lower speed limit and single lanes along the way.

The N25/N30 could have been upgraded and likely will be upgraded (Enniscorthy bypass/New Ross bypass) resulting in duplication of resources

Kahless wrote: »

Like I said, you could be most of the way up the M9 in the hour it would take to get to the start of the M11.

And you're still about 110km from Dublin either way.

Both routes are approximatley the same distance (within about 15km depending on what part of Dublin you're heading from/to), the only difference is the numbers on the signs change as you're driving along one route.

JayeL

Tolling the M2 would be a disaster; it's used by commuters from south Meath only who would simply clog up the R135 back 4 miles from the M50 as we did before the M2 was built. It's too easy to avoid - tolls only work when they're the only way.

JohnC.

Stark wrote: »

Yes you do. Paulstown is between Dublin and Waterford along the M9, just as Enniscorthy is between Dublin and Waterford along the M11/N30/N25 route. Your argument seems to hinge purely on wanting a route that has the same road number on the whole of its length. If we're to follow that line of reasoning, then Waterford is 120km from Kilcullen, near the start of the M7. So it's nearer the M11 than it is the M7.

I'm not talking about numbers. I'm talking about a motorway versus non-motorway and the disadvantages that brings. You don't have to go to Paulstown to get on a motorway. I don't care if the motorway number changes every 100 meters in between, it's still a motorway versus 60km of non-motorway with lower speed and the potential to get stuck behind others.

It's amazing you are actually claiming you have to go to Paulstown to get to the M9.
"The obvious difference being that you don't have to go to Paulstown to get to the M9."
"Yes you do."

Stark

Kahless wrote: »

I'm not talking about numbers. I'm talking about a motorway versus non-motorway and the disadvantages that brings. You don't have to go to Paulstown to get on a motorway. I don't care if the motorway number changes every 100 meters in between, it's still a motorway versus 60km of non-motorway with lower speed and the potential to get stuck behind others.

There was a choice. Build a motorway to the M7 or build a motorway to the M11. The M11 is nearer.

JohnC.

M9 also covers Kilkenny and Carlow.

M9 is 116km.

Join Waterford to M11 takes 60km
As I've seen proposed elsewhere, joining Kilkenny to N8 is another 25km
Then Carlow...??? M7 is about 50km away. I suppose the plan is to just forget about that little inconvenience then. Otherwise there is no saving to make the M9 look like a bad idea.

Amtmann

These will murder the motorist if they all go through:

NEW TOLLS on Dublin’s M50, a second toll on the Dublin to Waterford motorway and a handful of tolls in the midlands and west are to be considered under Government plans to raise additional revenue from roads.

While new tolls on national roads are being seen as long term and politically and practically difficult, a number of “obvious opportunities” have been mentioned by transport sources.

These include extending barrier-free tolling to additional sections of the M50, and the installation of a second toll on the M9 Dublin to Waterford route.

The M9 is to be the only one of the State’s inter-urban motorways that has just one toll – that on the Suir bridge close to Waterford city – when all the motorways are completed this year.

Other possibilities include tolling stretches of the Limerick to Cork route, the Jack Lynch tunnel and a range of bypasses such as Youghal and Ballincollig in Co Cork. Others include parts of the N52 around Tullamore.

The Gort to Tuam road in Galway, part of which is already under construction, is to be a tolled motorway and a new toll on the Limerick to Gort section is a possibility.

A second toll on the N4, near Mullingar, would depend on major work at level crossings at the Downs near Mullingar, while significant additional land would be required to build a toll plaza on the Roosky/Dromod bypass.

A Government source compared towns like Drogheda and Wicklow, commenting that while they were roughly equal in distance from Dublin, there were two tolls on the Drogheda route, on the M1 and at the Dublin Port Tunnel, but none on the Wicklow route. However, he said putting a toll on the M11/N11 to Wicklow would be extremely difficult, both politically and practically.

But transport sources said the proposals that “leapt off the page” were the Waterford route and extending the toll area on the M50. “Road pricing” had been mentioned as a “demand management measure” as far back as the Platform For Change report, published in 2001.

Currently, only vehicles that cross the West-Link bridges on the M50 are subject to a toll, but with the upgrade of the motorway between the airport and Sandyford and the construction of overhead gantries, extending barrier-free tolling is now possible.

The move has the double benefit of including significant additional volumes of traffic without being either too practically or politically difficult, sources said.

Extending the toll range from a single point where vehicles cross the bridge to all users of the M50 “could be seen as being more fair”.

Similarly it was thought the absence of a toll on the M9 between Dublin and the Suir bridge was out of step with the State’s other inter-urban motorways, each of which will have two tolls.

The working group that Minister for the Environment John Gormley has said he will set up to advise Government on implementation of revenue-raising measures is now expected to consider these options.

The extension of the Republic’s network of tolls as a measure for generating additional income was proposed in the report of the local government efficiency review group, published last week.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0726/1224275468010.html

I've never read such bs in my life. We are looking at going back to the days of turnpike yore in the 1700s by the looks of things. Tolling the Jack Lynch Tunnel?? Fix Dunkettle first! The Tullamore and Youghal Bypasses?? Are they serious? A second toll on the N4 in addition to the fattest one in the state at Kilcock? Bah! And the most outrageous of them all - MORE M50 tolls! This is absolutely opportunistic and deserves to be thrown out absolutely. By all means, toll the M9 and the M18 somewhere south of Galway if they must PLUS one on the M11 - but Dromod Roosky and the Youghal Bypasses? Are they for real? And the Jack Lynch Tunnel? The EU threw that out in the 90s. Such unmitigated shight.

L1011

The M50 toll zone being extended a junction either side was suggested ages and ages ago, if anything I could see it being done...

I can't see some of those suggestions ever returning the capex to set up the toll - Youghal Bypass for instance.

Amtmann

MYOB wrote: »

The M50 toll zone being extended a junction either side was suggested ages and ages ago, if anything I could see it being done...

I can see why they would do it, but they really shouldn't. More instances of Dublin paying for the rest of the country. A tax on one-offs (per the number of cars that park there at night), which contribute to the disrepair of thousands of kilometres of L and R roads, would be more equitable and would also have the added advantage of educating people about how to live more sustainably. I think adding further M50 tolls would have to mean a reduction in the price per toll down to at least €1.60.

Tech3

Wow that article is baffling. This current sad lot running our country cant steep any lower than this.

The only extra tolls just about bearable are:

• M7 at Nenagh
• M18 south of Rathmorrissey
• M9 (possibly 2)
• M11
• N25 Ballincollig

And even at the above I would be disgusted. The M4/M6 and the M8 have been tolled enough. S2 bypasses being tolled is just bs. Mentioning the N20 as a possible toll is just below the belt, where will they fit the toll plaza maybe upgrade the road first would be a good idea.

EurasiaEndtoEnd

Furet wrote: »

Youghal Bypasses? Are they for real? And the Jack Lynch Tunnel? The EU threw that out in the 90s. Such unmitigated shight.

When I left Ireland in 1985 it was an era of huge budget deficits and national debt and despondency about the future. My first trips abroad had been to West Germany where I worked 3 summers at a fruit canning factory.Coming from Cork city, where I cycled everywhere, it was a revelation to see roads without potholes, neat verges and a sense of neatness. People swept in front of their houses and shops in the mornings and I don't think I saw anyone throw litter. Japan,where I live now, has its faults and problems but there is a similar Germanic sense of neatness and lack of tolerance for slapdash, second-rate and an it'll-do approach. Things work and pride is taken in them working.
I love to drive and have been an avid follower of these infrastructure and commuting threads since I found them a few years ago. The Celtic Tiger gave me hope and a sense of pride that Ireland was finally graduating to the top of the class as a small, rich, liberal Western European country. I could see that the housing bubble would end in misery and was not at all surprised when it burst. But one legacy of the Tiger is the new infrastructure Ireland has been able to afford. I took a long road trip on the shiny new motorway network this May when I was home for holidays.
I know the economy is bad and I know times are dire again but it depresses me to see the old 1980s-style panicky, stop-gap attitudes coming back.
Here we are in 2010 without the simplest, LOW-tech solutions to issues that have been solved elsewhere 20, 30 or 40 years ago.
The M-way network built without MSAs.
The bus service in a small city like Cork (I can't speak for Dublin) is still a shambles. If people are going to pay cash bring conductors. Or else bring in strip-tickets for people to pre-pay. It is so simple. Not even electronic !!
But this proposal to toll the N25 or N22 and other bypasses !!! Without flyovers of Sarsfield-Bandon Rds? It will just drive people into towns and cities which will not cope with the traffic.
Tolls should be taken OFF roads which are now underused like the Waterford N25.
Politics in Ireland has never been ideological or grounded in any philosophy. It is all for-the-moment, without rationale, without thought of consequence, without logic, without rigour, without COMMON sense. The moneys raised from drivers are already enough. Go after somebody else ... like a 60% tax band for the well-heeled.

dowlingm

Lads, you had your chance when Iceland threw their kleptocrats out to take to the streets and do likewise. Not a single govt minister has lost their job for performance, the fella in charge of banking at the time of the guarantee is now SG at Finance. They will tax this country to death to "save" the banks and once they are finally ousted (and given the alternatives even that isn't guaranteed) they will flee to Brussels or some other sinecure.

Ireland is in more danger now than it was during the Arms Trial -the rest of the world is watching amazed that Cowen and Co. are continuing their sleepwalk over the cliff and that the people are letting it happen.

Pete_Cavan

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The M50 is the most profitable road in the country and accounts for the vast majority of income from tolls every year (€96.5 million in 2009!). But with only one toll there must be a huge number of vehicles that use it every day but do not pay the toll. Why not introduce a second barrier free toll. Relax before you lose it and just hear me out. The second toll could be at junction 9 (with the N7). With the system they have in place (most of it done by computer) surely it would be too difficult to set it that you only get charged for one toll if you pass through both within say half an hour. So you would still pay the same €3 you currently pay even if you pass through both. But also a lot of people who currently pay nothing will have to pay €3 as well. Alternatiely, if that doesnt work, introduce two tolls but make both of them to €1.50 so you would still pay €3 for passing both tolls but more people would be contributing. What do people think?

I posted that last week. I think changing the way the M50 is tolled is a great idea. After all the main aim of the proposals are to increase government revenue and this can bring in more money at little extra cost. At the minute there are a lot of people who use the M50 who do not pay for it, if we can charge people who currently pay nothing while keeping the cost the same for those who are already paying it definitely should be done.

KevR

So they want to put a toll on Gort-Tuam and Limerick-Gort?! I would reluctantly pay one toll between Galway and Limerick, no way would I pay 2 tolls; I'd use the old N18 instead out of principle.

Anyone know what's happening with the parking tax thing that was proposed over a year ago but deferred? That's something I hope we never see.

I don't mind paying my fair share of tax but I feel like I'm being raped financially at times because I am a motorist. :mad:

Stark

KevR wrote: »

Anyone know what's happening with the parking tax thing that was proposed over a year ago but deferred? That's something I hope we never see.

Don't think it's going to happen. It's too awkward to determine who has use of a particular car parking space in cases with shared parking.

Amtmann

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I posted that last week. I think changing the way the M50 is tolled is a great idea. After all the main aim of the proposals are to increase government revenue and this can bring in more money at little extra cost. At the minute there are a lot of people who use the M50 who do not pay for it, if we can charge people who currently pay nothing while keeping the cost the same for those who are already paying it definitely should be done.

Do you not think it places a disproportionate burden on the motoring citizenry of Dublin? I think it does. Councils across the land spend so much on road maintenance for several reasons, one of which is the irresponsible and unsustainable habit that many people have of building one-offs outside towns and villages. Each of these has at least two or three cars on average, making multiple journeys each day on roads that were built to carry packhorses and carts. Dublin motorists on the other hand tend to live as efficiently as possible because they are in a concentrated urban area. Hence the greater numbers of traffic on the M50. I really don't see why Dublin motorists should be Dick Turpined only to have their money transfered to utterly unproductive regions. A tax per car in one-offs would be far fairer. The M50 toll is already pricey enough in my opinion.

Stark

If they want to save money, they should start by returning boreens with one off houses to the property owners so the council doesn't have to waste money maintaining them. Too many of these were transferred into council hands in exchange for votes.

Tech3

KevR wrote: »

So they want to put a toll on Gort-Tuam and Limerick-Gort?! I would reluctantly pay one toll between Galway and Limerick, no way would I pay 2 tolls; I'd use the old N18 instead out of principle.

If they stuck a toll on the Ennis bypass then that would be hard to take. The alternative route is very bad going through a large congested town by Irish standards.

I have no problem sticking a toll on the Gort-Tuam future motorway personally once it's built ASAP. It will link Galway and Limerick finally with DC/motorway standard road and if it requires a toll so be it.

Pete_Cavan

Furet wrote: »

Do you not think it places a disproportionate burden on the motoring citizenry of Dublin? I think it does. Councils across the land spend so much on road maintenance for several reasons, one of which is the irresponsible and unsustainable habit that many people have of building one-offs outside towns and villages. Each of these has at least two or three cars on average, making multiple journeys each day on roads that were built to carry packhorses and carts. Dublin motorists on the other hand tend to live as efficiently as possible because they are in a concentrated urban area. Hence the greater numbers of traffic on the M50. I really don't see why Dublin motorists should be Dick Turpined only to have their money transfered to utterly unproductive regions. A tax per car in one-offs would be far fairer. The M50 toll is already pricey enough in my opinion.

I agree with you that one off houses are unsustainable and a drain on resources but I dont think that is a reason not to put a toll on the M50. Just because the M50 is in Dublin does not mean only Dubliners use it. It is the busiest road in the country and is used by many people from outside Dublin. I would imagine (although I have no proof) that a very large percentage, if not the majority of people using the M50 come from outside Dublin. In fact Im sure a lot of the Dubliners who use the M50 do not go over the bridge and do not pay the toll so they get all the benefits without any of the cost. It may well be the case (but again I cant prove it) that it is mainly people from outside Dublin that pay the toll and are therefore paying for an extremely vital piece of infrastructure for the city itself. Either way Dublin motorists are not "Dick Turpined" by adjusting the toll on the M50.

Like I said, the objective here is to raise revenue for the government. The M50 is the most profitable road in the country by a long way but yet the current system of collecting the tolls is very inefficient and many users pay nothing. The tolling arrangement on the M50 could be changed quite easily to catch more people and therefore it would produce more money. The cost of doing this would be quite low when compared to building toll plazas on existing motorways (not that Im saying that shouldnt be done as well). The tolls could be structured in such a way to prevent people from being forced to pay huge amounts and a maximum toll can be set (the current €3 prehaps) and people have to use the road anyway (going through town wont be an option when they start digging for MN). So this is the cheapest solution that would also generate the most revenue - it has to happen.

The other thing this has going for it is that it is acceptable to the voting public. The road is already tolled anyway and my suggestion just makes it fairer because more people contribute. A tax per car in one-offs will never happen because it would be political suicide.