Meteor; Change of billpay terms; get out of contract?

Covey

cojomo2 wrote: »

Cancelled/voided by them, not you..you signed a contract..they then alter the conditions...you fail to agree to these new conditions, so they cancel/void the contract( as in effect, it no longer exists once the new charges come in)...it's not like you have the option to proceed with the original contract you signed , so the phone should remain yours.

I think you'll find the contract was altered by them and cancelled by you. In any case it's irrelevant as the cancellation does not give you ownership of the phone.

cojomo2

Covey wrote: »

I think you'll find the contract was altered by them and cancelled by you. In any case it's irrelevant as the cancellation does not give you ownership of the phone.

Once it is altered by them, it's voided, there is nothing to cancel.

You are confusing 'cancelling' with simply failing to move on to their new contract with updated terms.

When the contract comes to an end, be it after 12 months, or prematurely, by them voiding it, as long as you kept your side and didn't break any terms of the contract, the phone is yours. That's how I see it anyway.

Covey

adrian522 wrote: »

So what was the €180 for?

The payment was in consideration of the contract.

This can be clearly seen as the passing of ownership is clearly stated in the contract (apparantly!) and the fact that the phone was far more expensive when purchased outright (i.e no attaching contract)

Covey

cojomo2 wrote: »

Once it is altered by them, it's voided, there is nothing to cancel.

You are confusing 'cancelling' with simply failing to move on to their new contract with updated terms.

Altering a contract does not automatically void a contract. An altered contract is not a new contract.

hobochris

Covey wrote: »

Altering a contract does not automatically void a contract. An altered contract is not a new contract.

Likewise it is not the same contract that was originally agree'd upon by both parties, therefor can be treated as a new contract with the terms of the previous contract carried over where not amended provide both parties agree to the revision in terms and conditions.It is the failure to honor the original contract(in this case by meteor) that voids it.

jbwan

The exact wording in the contract is -

"The Meteor SIM Card remains our property at all times. All other Equipment (excluding the Meteor SIM Card) shall remain the property of Meteor until the expiry of the Minimum Period."

where the following terms are defined -

"Equipment" - The Customer's handset or other terminal (e.g. PDA/dongle for Mobile Broadband), the Meteor SIM Card and/or any other equipment which is pursuant to this Agreement in connection with the Services.

"Minimum Period" - The period of 12 months (or such other period as stated under the Application Form executed) commencing on the date of the Customer's connection to the Network, or from any re-execution or new execution of this Agreement or written acceptance of new terms.

Therefore it's quite straightforward IMO. For any minimum period to be extended as per Meteor's own terms in the original contract, they require a written acceptance of such. This doesn't mean that the contract ends if you don't write to them to accept the changes but it does mean that they cannot extend the minimum period. The pricing changes being introduced on August 22nd are sufficient to break the contract as governed by the EU legislation and thus bring about a premature end to the original minimum period as per the contract. So, on August 22nd the minimum period will end officially because the provider has breached the contract (as long as customers inform them that they are not willing to accept the new terms as per the EU legislation) and thus the contract will have expired, releasing the Equipment from any contractual ties. The Customer cannot be forced to suffer because the Provider chooses to significantly alter the terms of a binding contract. There is no provision for repayment of the Equipment under rental or hire/purchase agreement within the contract and all other ties have been severed, releasing the Equipment to the Customer without prejudice.

Irishdudedave

I rang them today and they said I could cancel no problem but I would have to return the phone. When I asked if my initial upfront cost would be refunded they said no.
I told them that they were clearly wrong as in that case they were taking my money for nothing.
The girl insisted that the contract would not be cancelled until I returned the phone along with a letter of cancellation to them (via post or to a store).

What do you think I should do?

cojomo2

jbwan wrote: »

The exact wording in the contract is -

"The Meteor SIM Card remains our property at all times. All other Equipment (excluding the Meteor SIM Card) shall remain the property of Meteor until the expiry of the Minimum Period."

where the following terms are defined -

"Equipment" - The Customer's handset or other terminal (e.g. PDA/dongle for Mobile Broadband), the Meteor SIM Card and/or any other equipment which is pursuant to this Agreement in connection with the Services.

"Minimum Period" - The period of 12 months (or such other period as stated under the Application Form executed) commencing on the date of the Customer's connection to the Network, or from any re-execution or new execution of this Agreement or written acceptance of new terms.

Therefore it's quite straightforward IMO. For any minimum period to be extended as per Meteor's own terms in the original contract, they require a written acceptance of such. This doesn't mean that the contract ends if you don't write to them to accept the changes but it does mean that they cannot extend the minimum period. The pricing changes being introduced on August 22nd are sufficient to break the contract as governed by the EU legislation and thus bring about a premature end to the original minimum period as per the contract. So, on August 22nd the minimum period will end officially because the provider has breached the contract (as long as customers inform them that they are not willing to accept the new terms as per the EU legislation) and thus the contract will have expired, releasing the Equipment from any contractual ties. The Customer cannot be forced to suffer because the Provider chooses to significantly alter the terms of a binding contract. There is no provision for repayment of the Equipment under rental or hire/purchase agreement within the contract and all other ties have been severed, releasing the Equipment to the Customer without prejudice.

This is correct...but you may as well be talking to the wall when saying it to meteor..their cs reps were probably just sent an email stating something like " if customers want to leave, demand the phone back, if this is questioned, tell them we have checked with our legal department and we may request the phone back with no refund being issued"

You can keep at them, reading out extracts of their own contract contradicting this but they will just keep repeating what they have been told to say...

cojomo2

Irishdudedave wrote: »

I rang them today and they said I could cancel no problem but I would have to return the phone. When I asked if my initial upfront cost would be refunded they said no.
I told them that they were clearly wrong as in that case they were taking my money for nothing.
The girl insisted that the contract would not be cancelled until I returned the phone along with a letter of cancellation to them (via post or to a store).

What do you think I should do?

Tell them you are sending a registered letter to them outlining that you don't agree to their updates terms, so you will be opting out. Also, state they may have the phone back if they refund you what you paid. Then cancel your direct debit. I'm pretty sure that should cover everything.

mlmcelligott

It doesnt matter what excuse they come up with regarding Meteor's regulations or conditions. Long story short - they broke their side of the bargain by changing the terms of the contract.

Just keep stating exactly what it says on their website:

"Meteor wishes to notify its customers of Bill Pay price changes effective as of 22nd of August 2010. The current default rate for Mobile Internet Browsing of 2c per KB (€20.48 per MB) will change to a daily pricing structure. Customers will be charged 2c per KB up to 49KB i.e. 98c. Usage will then be zero rated from 50KB to 50MB. After 50MB has been consumed, usage will be charged at out of bundle rates of 2c per KB (€20.48 per MB). This pricing applies to daily usage from midnight to midnight. Under Regulation 17 of the European Communities (Electronic Communications Networks and Services) (Universal Services and Users' Rights) Regulations 2003, an operator shall, not less than one month prior to the date of implementation of any proposed modification, notify its subscribers to that service of the proposed modification in the conditions of the contract for that service and their right to withdraw without penalty from such contract if they do not accept the modification."

It looks like meteor are getting alot of calls from people requesting cancellation and have gotten spooked.

When you buy the phone you have to sign one contract that states all the spiel about returning the phone and sim, losing your deposit etc. but if they break one of their conditions on that piece of paper surely all the other conditions are null and void also, no?

Irishdudedave

cojomo2 wrote: »

Tell them you are sending a registered letter to them outlining that you don't agree to their updates terms, so you will be opting out. Also, state they may have the phone back if they refund you what you paid. Then cancel your direct debit. I'm pretty sure that should cover everything.

Thanks...

That was my plan. Does it have to be registered letter? or can I fax it in... Im thinking the letter probably would be best because I have a written record that I sent it.

Padraig Mor

jbwan wrote: »

The exact wording in the contract is -

"The Meteor SIM Card remains our property at all times. All other Equipment (excluding the Meteor SIM Card) shall remain the property of Meteor until the expiry of the Minimum Period."

where the following terms are defined -

"Equipment" - The Customer's handset or other terminal (e.g. PDA/dongle for Mobile Broadband), the Meteor SIM Card and/or any other equipment which is pursuant to this Agreement in connection with the Services.

"Minimum Period" - The period of 12 months (or such other period as stated under the Application Form executed) commencing on the date of the Customer's connection to the Network, or from any re-execution or new execution of this Agreement or written acceptance of new terms.
.

Would I be correct in reading these terms as meaning "Meteor own the phone for 12/18 months after connection to the network"? Nowhere is the Minimum Period defined as being related to the actual contract. (Not taking "Meteor's side" BTW...)

Irishdudedave

Well I tried faxing them but their fax number is ringing out and not answering!

Covey

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Nowhere is the Minimum Period defined as being related to the actual contract. (Not taking "Meteor's side" BTW...)

Yes it is, the Minimum Period is the initial length of the contract.

Padraig Mor

Covey wrote: »

Yes it is, the Minimum Period is the initial length of the contract.

The Minimum Period is defined as "The period of 12 months......commencing on the date of the Customer's connection to the Network".

Covey

Padraig Mor wrote: »

The Minimum Period is defined as "The period of 12 months......commencing on the date of the Customer's connection to the Network".

Yes and that refers to the minimum period of the contract i.e. 12 months or whatever thereafter.

Padraig Mor

Covey wrote: »

Yes and that refers to the minimum period of the contract i.e. 12 months or whatever thereafter.

That's my point. The min period is effectively defined as 12 months, and this is not defined as being related to the existence of a contract. Again, not taking Meteor's side, just wondering....

Covey

Padraig Mor wrote: »

That's my point. The min period is effectively defined as 12 months, and this is not defined as being related to the existence of a contract. Again, not taking Meteor's side, just wondering....

What you're quoting is the definition of a term of the contract. Of course it's part of it.

cojomo2

So, anyone planning on fighting this?:D

Covey

cojomo2 wrote: »

So, anyone planning on fighting this?:D

Not fighting it. Maybe a different approach. Will phone to cancel as is my right and offer to move to Lite Pay (same income for them).

If they ask for the phone back I'll say well without a phone I won't be able to go to Lite Pay even. If they ask for it back I'll say fine, could they arrange for a suitable time to pick it up and to bring a cheque for my €169. (I doubt the last bit is according to the contract though).

Lets see if common sense prevails. If not well we'll see.

cojomo2

Covey wrote: »

Not fighting it. Maybe a different approach. Will phone to cancel as is my right and offer to move to Lite Pay (same income for them).

If they ask for the phone back I'll say well without a phone I won't be able to go to Lite Pay even. If they ask for it back I'll say fine, could they arrange for a suitable time to pick it up and to bring a cheque for my €169. (I doubt the last bit is according to the contract though).

Lets see if common sense prevails. If not well we'll see.

Tried this today..said I wanted to move straight to bill pay lite smart, they said I could but I would need to supply my own phone for this plan and return my current one...I was very polite but firm in that I said if I was returning my phone, I would expect a refund, but she was having none of it..

Covey

cojomo2 wrote: »

Tried this today..said I wanted to move straight to bill pay lite smart, they said I could but I would need to supply my own phone for this plan and return my current one...I was very polite but firm in that I said if I was returning my phone, I would expect a refund, but she was having none of it..

Ok. But how are they going to force you to give the phone back? Sue you? Having read the contract it does seem the phone is part of it, which is fine.

But having paid a certain amount for the phone and not receive it back would appear to go against Regulation 17 which clearly states without a penalty.

cojomo2

Covey wrote: »

Ok. But how are they going to force you to give the phone back? Sue you? Having read the contract it does seem the phone is part of it, which is fine.

But having paid a certain amount for the phone and not receive it back would appear to go against Regulation 17 which clearly states without a penalty.

I made the point that if I'm being asked to give the phone back without being refunded for it, then that's hardly without penalty...she said that there is no early termination fee, but that the phone was a separate issue, and was theirs until completion of the minimum term..I tried to explain that me not accepting their new altered terms and conditions of the contract means that the minimum term is now over, and that I didn't break any terms or conditions of the contract I signed , only they did, but she just kept repeating herself ..

Covey

cojomo2 wrote: »

I made the point that if I'm being asked to give the phone back without being refunded for it, then that's hardly without penalty...she said that there is no early termination fee, but that the phone was a separate issue, and was theirs until completion of the minimum term..I tried to explain that me not accepting their new altered terms and conditions of the contract means that the minimum term is now over, and that I didn't break any terms or conditions of the contract I signed , only they did, but she just kept repeating herself ..

So lets say the phone is theirs until completion of the minimum term (and it appears to be). They'll probably argue that depreciation covers the fact that you get back nothing of what you paid for it

The question remains how are they going to get it back and whats to stop you going to someone else?

Fresh Pots

I'm going to give it a couple of days and see what the NCA and comreg say about it. Whatever about returning the phone, not getting a refund of the money you spent on it surely should be considered as a penelty.

When meteor say that they got legal advice, they may have got it in regards to people cancelling contracts under regular circumstances and not where people are leaving as a result of a change in their terms and conditions. I guess we'll find out in the next few days if they make a u-turn or not.

Covey

squared wrote: »

I'm going to give it a couple of days and see what the NCA and comreg say about it. Whatever about returning the phone, not getting a refund of the money you spent on it surely should be considered as a penelty.

When meteor say that they got legal advice, they may have got it in regards to people cancelling contracts under regular circumstances and not where people are leaving as a result of a change in their terms and conditions.

Why ever would you assume something like that? It's a lot of money we're talking about and I'd expect any company to get proper advise.

Enforcing that advise, even if correct though, may not be worth it !

Fresh Pots

Covey wrote: »

Why ever would you assume something like that? It's a lot of money we're talking about and I'd expect any company to get proper advise.

Enforcing that advise, even if correct though, may not be worth it !

Don't get me wrong, I would expect them to get the proper advice too. I just think they might have started asking people for the phones back when they realised how many people where ending their contracts.

Covey

squared wrote: »

Don't get me wrong, I would expect them to get the proper advice too. I just think they might have started asking people for the phones back when they realised how many people where ending their contracts.

I'm sure you're right. I also think they're right. Just not sure how practical that will be and eventually a compromise might be a better solution for all :P

Fresh Pots

Covey wrote: »

I'm sure you're right. I also think they're right. Just not sure how practical that will be and eventually a compromise might be a better solution for both :P

Exactly, I know I'm just repeating whats already been said but how do they expect to keep customers if they take their mobile phones. If they just thought about it for a minute they might see how silly they're being!

adrian522

ok, can someone answer this, according to the reg, all you have to do is confirm to meteor in writing that you are not happy with the new T&C's and that you wish to be released from your contract.

Now Meteor are saying that you must return the phone but surely once youve sent this letter they are obliged to release you from the contract and the ownership of the phone is a separate(but related) issue which they must pursue separately. They cant hold you to the contract one youve indicated that you are not happy with the new T&C's after august 22nd.

Secondly what would meteor do if you had lost your phone since you signed up? Do you have to buy a new one(unsubsidised) in order to get out of your contract.