Street Fighter III - Third Strike Online Edition-released

Ramza

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

Doom played this game in arcades before you even knew your hadoukens from your shoryukens

DooM is not an active/3s player

Placebo wrote: »

so only people who make movies have a say on sequels and remakes?
only people who are programmers have a say on how the next OS should operate ?

i can draw a hundred analogies, why do you keep bringing this silly point up

Can't compare different platforms, movies/OS/games, all different. Those analogies are irrelevant

It's only sense that the people who know and play the game get proper says in the matter, if you don't play why would you care?

As far as movies go I believe the people who have seen the movies get say over those who don't? Is this not common sense? (even though ultimately it is the director choice)

Now that I look those analogies are agreeing with me :pac:

And OS and software is all based on user feedback

Voa

I demand this thread be renamed to Ramza VS Forum; Fight for the future (of the online edition)! 'cause now even I'm gonna bite.


* Those who currently play the game will keep playing as they want. For newer players who feel certain elements are an issue, these could be fixed/altered/whatever and it could get an appropriate mode name, like say, Scrub Mode. Personally, I quite like the game as is. But maybe enough people who might consider buying the game if certain things were changed would fork out the cash, resulting in step 4 (profit)? And isn't that the point of any business? It's not about keeping the hardcore fans happy, it's about the money, Lebowski (to quote an awesome film).

Ramza

Yeah but to me why would they rebalance it? It doesn't need it. Does no one understand what I am saying? New players will be attracted either way IMO if it gets a revamp and enough media coverage. Not that it will revive the game or whatever. If you don't play the game or ever did before then why would you care/mind? Newer players can't feel certain element are an issue because they don't play the game

Like I said a million times it does not need a total rebalance. It wont make a difference. Id people wanna play they will play. If anyone thinks 3s is broken I have to laugh, I'm sorry

hmm how about common sense vs irrelevant points :pac:

I can see where people are coming from trust me but rebalancing a game for cash is silly. Esp ones that don't need it. The game never was too popular and only for a while afaik. I had never even heard of 3s when I did, but I thought it looked cool so I learned it. That's what I mean when I say newer players have no universal standard because they never played it. I didn't look at a match of Yun and go I'm not learning this game

Placebo

Ramza wrote: »

DooM is not an active/3s player



Can't compare different platforms, movies/OS/games, all different. Those analogies are irrelevant

It's only sense that the people who know and play the game get proper says in the matter, if you don't play why would you care?

As far as movies go I believe the people who have seen the movies get say over those who don't? Is this not common sense? (even though ultimately it is the director choice)

Now that I look those analogies are agreeing with me :pac:

And OS and software is all based on user feedback

nobody here said they wont play the game. [infact they said they would if it got rebalanced]
your argument was that only the experienced/elitist people have a say

thus my RELEVANT analogies.

ALSO everyone here has played the game I.E watched the film :pac::pac::pac:

Ramza

Placebo wrote: »

nobody here said they wont play the game. [infact they said they would if it got rebalanced]
your argument was that only the experienced/elitist people have a say

thus my RELEVANT analogies.

Nothing wrong with people playing the game but as it stands now if you don't play the game properly you shouldn't get a say in the whole. how can one comment on what they never experienced? the whole yun chun thing is annoying and i would welcome nerfs to their supers np. it's easy to comment on what you dont like as broken though, esp if you dont play the game

dont see whats stopping people from learning now, tell me what is? at this moment in time? nothing. so why wait for a rebalance to learn. i dont get it

my argument was that people who are exp with the game deserve credibility. never mentioned elitist. obviously the consensus will not be 100% , and that everyone has their own ideas about what is fine and what is not, in the whole playerbase but i bet it would be 90% plus, like i said a few pages back

Placebo wrote: »

ALSO everyone here has played the game I.E watched the film :pac::pac::pac:

not to a decent extent. only me and you to be honest

Also,, just talking to Azza now, I'd like everyone to read this paragraph. He posed the question to me, would I mind, if say it was around 1999 or afterwards and 3s was getting a sequel with the obvious nerfs and buffs, new features etc, like all new additions get, (WW-CE-HF, SFIV-SSFIV etc), I said not at all, I wouldn#t mind because it would just be the next installment and no one would know better. Because the game would of only been out for a year or two. I think that as it stands now 3s is out since like what, 1999? It already has/had a solid playerbase and is pretty much accepted. To me changing the game now is silly and pointless, just because of the time frame and since the game is not very popular anymore

I want people to understand my harsh opinions stem from my love of the game and because like I said the game is already established at this stage. You can't hold anything against me for having that point of view. I feel at this stage after its out so long only the players should get a say in the rebalance. But tbh we all know that is not going to happen. But to be perfectly honest with everyone in my heart of hearts a rebalance might actually help to attract new players but all I can see is bad things at this stage. Just because it's 11 years on since it's release, it's a little sketchy. But to be perfectly honest I wouldn't mind if Capcom somehow discussed with the playerbase and released a rebalance and wanted feedback? Would it really be worth it at this stage is all I am saying? I think it should be left alone personally as I have so argued but a rebalance at this stage now that I think of it might not be a bad thing but to me not the best thing either.

When 2nd impact got 3s people didn't complain. But say if 2nd impact was accepted as the standard and last game for 11 years then decided to be changed you can see the negative response already. I just think because of where it stands now a rebalanced is silly. All in all I mean change is good but at this stage you're really taking a giant risk Capcom. I mean the game isn't very popular anymore so I guess nothing bad can really come from it. I don't know tbh now that I think of it

I know the game is flatout dead at this stage bar GGPO maybe, and I do think now that a rebalance would maybe help attract new people. But if new players saw the game for the first time they wouldn't know anyway, that's all I was saying. It's just the principal I don't like a little

Dunjohn

In Ramza's defense, SF3 isn't anywhere near as unbalanced as SF1. Same two characters hog 50% of top-flight play each there, it's madness.

Ramza

I personally don't think it needs a rebalance is all I'm saying. But I dunno if I really would mind. My point was can't people just play the game now?

chopperbyrne

Ramza wrote: »

I personally don't think it needs a rebalance is all I'm saying. But I dunno if I really would mind. My point was can't people just play the game now?

They can, but choose not to.

Ramza

chopperbyrne wrote: »

They can, but choose not to.

Hmm yeah, exactly, but why? This is all I'm saying and the logic seems weird to me but whatever

UberPrinny_Baal

Ramza wrote: »

Capcom want to remake 3s? My answer is why? One simple word ; why?

Mine would generally always be "Why not?"

As I said I think we're kind of exactly opposite in mindsets.

Ramza wrote: »

Why did ST need HDR? No game is perfect but I'll be damned if 3s or ST or any other game is broken! 3s as a whole does not need a complete remake.

I think bringing "need" into this is kind of a non-point, considering we're talking about recreational computer games. None of us "needs" that. We didn't need HDR, that's true, we also didn't need ST, CE, WW or Street Fighter 1. We need air, food and water and that's it.

Really this comes down to "want". Some people "wanted" HDR, you didn't. What I don't get is why it makes you so mad that their wants were fulfilled.

You would have essentially been happier had they been disappointed, and you were non-changing. This just seems kind of mean.

Ramza wrote: »

It's a matter of principle to me ; why fix what's not broken?

Why not try to improve what's not perfect? You already said that no game is

Ramza wrote: »

I don't agree with the "you still have the original" idea.

I don't see how you could possibly disagree. Can you check to see if it's missing for me? :P

Ramza wrote: »

There should always be one standard.

Absolutely. Except for SF2:CE, SSF2, SSF2T, SF2HDR, SA2, SA3, SF EX2,
SF EX2 Plus, SF EX3, CvS2, CvS2 EO, TvC:UAS, SF3 2I and SF3 3rd Strike.

Ramza wrote: »

Making two games will ultimately **** everything up for a lot of reason, generally 3s HDR is not 3S, it will be a different game altogether. You'll then have a clique, like you can see now, of experiences players who prefer original 3s and new players who like HDR 3S.

Kneecaps said something similar, and I don't actually see any point or reason here.

"It will piss people off."
"Why?"
"Because it will split the community."
"Why?"
"Because it will piss people off"

So on and so forth.

Ramza wrote: »

My question is why can't everyone just play original 3s as it's been around ten years now and there's no reason not to. It's just madness to me.

I empathise with you here. Smash Melee is my favourite fighting game, but it's old and we don't have a scene here. My game still has tonnes of leveling up to do before I could consider myself great, but I can't do that in stagnation. There is absolutely no reason for people to not go back and play these old games, but there's also really no reason why they should bother. Large amounts of people don't just spontaniously decide to pick up old games and get awesome at them, that's not how the human mind works. They need hype, or a re-release, or news of a sequel.

HDR got me back into Street Fighter, plain and simple. I wouldn't be posting on this forum if it wasn't released. A remixed game WOULD bring in new players, as you already said. You want new players, but you don't want to make any concessions to achieve that, even if that concession is to only allow a game mode to exist you never have to play.

Ramza wrote: »

A lot of top players or hardcore players don't use GGPO ... I know I, and personally loads others who play on GGPO a lot would pay for this game!

Okay, that's a fair reason.

Ramza wrote: »

You don't need a rebalance to attract new players, how would they know the difference

You're sort of underestimating the instant accessibility to a lot of information the internet gives people. I know very little about 3S, but I know if I wanted to get anyway decent, I'd have to overcome the fairly significant skill barrier involved, and I know if I actually got to end game, there'd be nothing but Chuns, Yuns and Kens waiting for me. There are people posting in this very topic that have played it way more than me and longer than you that are complaining about it's accessibility. It's massively discouraging to be at the pre-newbie stage of a game, and already know the path laid out ahead of you and know you don't like the sounds of the destination. If 3S was simply rereleased I know it wouldn't be my thing.

Even YOU who are steadfastely against the very NOTION of a rebalance, have said you would be happy with a couple of changes. So you're more in favour of it than you're willing to admit.

A remixed version would be like a big journey reset button. The metagame wouldn't be already decided before we started, we'd get to discover it for ourselves.

THAT'S appealing.

I'd buy that.

I know we have opposite opinions, and you're absolutely entitled to yours; but you haven't presented (or quoted from SRK) a single actual reason for being against this other than "I don't like change"

In fact, deep down, you sound like you might be a little bit in favour of it.

Ramza

UberPrinny_Baal wrote: »

Mine would generally always be "Why not?"

As I said I think we're kind of exactly opposite in mindsets.


I think bringing "need" into this is kind of a non-point, considering we're talking about recreational computer games. None of us "needs" that. We didn't need HDR, that's true, we also didn't need ST, CE, WW or Street Fighter 1. We need air, food and water and that's it.

Really this comes down to "want". Some people "wanted" HDR, you didn't. What I don't get is why it makes you so mad that their wants were fulfilled.

You would have essentially been happier had they been disappointed, and you were non-changing. This just seems kind of mean.



Why not try to improve what's not perfect? You already said that no game is



I don't see how you could possibly disagree. Can you check to see if it's missing for me? :P



Absolutely. Except for SF2:CE, SSF2, SSF2T, SF2HDR, SA2, SA3, SF EX2,
SF EX2 Plus, SF EX3, CvS2, CvS2 EO, TvC:UAS, SF3 2I and SF3 3rd Strike.



Kneecaps said something similar, and I don't actually see any point or reason here.

"It will piss people off."
"Why?"
"Because it will split the community."
"Why?"
"Because it will piss people off"

So on and so forth.



I empathise with you here. Smash Melee is my favourite fighting game, but it's old and we don't have a scene here. My game still has tonnes of leveling up to do before I could consider myself great, but I can't do that in stagnation. There is absolutely no reason for people to not go back and play these old games, but there's also really no reason why they should bother. Large amounts of people don't just spontaniously decide to pick up old games and get awesome at them, that's not how the human mind works. They need hype, or a re-release, or news of a sequel.

HDR got me back into Street Fighter, plain and simple. I wouldn't be posting on this forum if it wasn't released. A remixed game WOULD bring in new players, as you already said. You want new players, but you don't want to make any concessions to achieve that, even if that concession is to only allow a game mode to exist you never have to play.



Okay, that's a fair reason.



You're sort of underestimating the instant accessibility to a lot of information the internet gives people. I know very little about 3S, but I know if I wanted to get anyway decent, I'd have to overcome the fairly significant skill barrier involved, and I know if I actually got to end game, there'd be nothing but Chuns, Yuns and Kens waiting for me. There are people posting in this very topic that have played it way more than me and longer than you that are complaining about it's accessibility. It's massively discouraging to be at the pre-newbie stage of a game, and already know the path laid out ahead of you and know you don't like the sounds of the destination. If 3S was simply rereleased I know it wouldn't be my thing.

Even YOU who are steadfastely against the very NOTION of a rebalance, have said you would be happy with a couple of changes. So you're more in favour of it than you're willing to admit.

A remixed version would be like a big journey reset button. The metagame wouldn't be already decided before we started, we'd get to discover it for ourselves.

THAT'S appealing.

I'd buy that.

I know we have opposite opinions, and you're absolutely entitled to yours; but you haven't presented (or quoted from SRK) a single actual reason for being against this other than "I don't like change"

In fact, deep down, you sound like you might be a little bit in favour of it.

I'm kind of in the middle of the why and why not thing at the moment to be honest, maybe was a bit too stern before. Check my latest post

I'm just talking in terms of one game, and I know need really has no relevance here but just in this here one example ultimately imo 3s doesn't need a rebalance but I guess at the end of the day the people get what the people want

I'm not mad that people's wants were fulfilled, I'm not mad HDR either, I'm just a little annoyed over the principle is all and I guess it's just these feelings that cause me to post like I do. I don't see a point in making HDR when the game was how many years old? It's just that giant time frame I don't get

I wouldn't of been happier if HDR turned out terrible it'd just be a "told you so" moment.

Like the why and why not arguments the "try rebalance a game which is not perfect" and "leave a game alone that is not broken" are really the same thing. It just goes in a circle pretty much and it's all personal preference.

I guess if they do rebalance it having the original is ok given A).The playerbase is not big atmo/mainly on GGPO (3S doesn't get a lot of arcade play these days contrary to popular belief) and Having the original as a backup or personal preference for others. The big question is how the rebalance will be accepted and which one will become a standard?

I mean one standard as for each game series/platform to use. SF2 = ST, SF3 = 3s, Marvel = MVC2, Alpha = A3. Nothing wrong with playign the others, and they do get play, but for tourneys etc there always needs to be one standard I think you missed my point. I just fear the rebalance would make arguments like with ST about which is best

You can empathise with me so do you see my point? It's not a harsh point at all. I guess it's different with Smash Melee but I don't agree with the "I really want to play this game, but, even though it's on PS2/Xbox/Dreamcast, AND emulated online for free with GGPO netcode, a good enough playerbase and tonnes of resources online to learn, I just don't want to! I want a rebalance". This is all I'm trying to say, people can learn it now. If Capcom release an arcade perfect port to XBL/PSN, they are giving everyone a chance to get into this game, even though it's mad old I still think it is the best FG ever made. Bringing it to the spotlight like this on PSN/XBL also removes issues people may have with GGPO, ports etc, you know the like

3s has no significant skill barrier to be honest Dave and it's that idea I'm trying to stomp out. It's like any other FG and just takes dedication. I again disagree with the Yun/Chun/Ken thing, I don't know what you mean by "got to the end game", could you elaborate? That kind of attitude is lazy talk to me (not saying you!), but that approach annoys me and I think it's said people with that approach pushing for a rebalance. People are over thinking and not playing is all

I am for a few changes yes, wouldn't mind like I said top tier super buffs, Genei Jin too strong/builds too quick and Chun needs one stock on her super.

You can discover the game for yourself right now. The idea of the journey ahead already being laid out is silly imo. If everyone thought that way there would be no players at all who get stomped on all the time

There are people posting in this very topic that have played it way more than me and longer than you that are complaining about it's accessibility

Who are these people? DooM doesn't play 3s on a serious level as he knows himself and if he played before it was maybe only dabbing. Farz is playing since what year (correct me please farz), 2004? In around same as me (2003 offline and I was crap). I remember playing with farz a lot back in the day. The things farz complained about, are as he knows I have stated, silly (bar the Yun/Chun issue I agreed with). Same goes for DooM and he knows my stand on his claim on the game. I can't take credibility from someone who doesn't play and lists something like that, sorry DooM (no offence personally)

I have posted several reasons why I am against it (or seemingly maybe was 100% against it). I feel changing the game now will make no difference at all to accessibility, people can play it now as is. It might upset a lot of players like you can see here yourself and on SRK. It's also just the principle that matters, 11 years on and they want to change it? Little silly to me. Will rebalancing it really make a difference?

I'd buy it too

Also, to expand on my latest post, I have had a little change of heart on the whole topic. It's between, for me, if the game rebalance gets more people that is awesome and I am all for getting the game more hype and noticing, but I don't want to see what happened with HDR happen to 3s. It will kill me. I believe the game is fine input wise. I don't want to see easy inputs for 3s. I'm afraid Capcom will completely butcher some things that don't need butchering. It's a risk I personally wouldn't take and I seem quite defensive of it as you can see. It also brings me back to my point of if Capcom want to make a rebalance who will they listen to? New players can't really give an input their tbh, they should ask exp tourney players and world class players imo. I'm not trying to sound elitist but if Capcom want to rebalance 3s to the best of their ability they should go about it the right way.

To be completely honest with everyone a rebalance does sound interesting, I would like to try one out and maybe give feedback if it was possible. The idea of changing the game sounds cool, but not changing it to make it easy mode, if you get me. Keep the game mechanics and inputs the same. And Capcom take input from best sources if they can

Scavenger XIII

UberPrinny_Baal wrote: »

A remixed version would be like a big journey reset button. The metagame wouldn't be already decided before we started, we'd get to discover it for ourselves.

This is a very good point, and probably the reason we want a rebalance whether we realise it or not.

Sisko

Uber you need to read this thead :

http://shoryuken.com/f2/why-hate-hdr-230262/


Its massive but anyway yeah. I don't play ST. I mean I've played it, but not 'properly' ie not spend hours playing it online/offline against people that know how to play.

So yeah, heres me thinking HDR would be great and all the ST people will love it and generally it'd be the go to game for some SF2 ness (I rather 3s and SF4 so I never really play it )

But look around you. All our SF2 fans in this community even, its always original ST. Never HDR.

Elitism? Maybe I dunno , but its there. The same will happen with 3s. Unfortunately.

Just look at ramza's posts. Truth is a lot of people will have his reaction. Even if they make the perfect 3s and its fantastic. People will react like that. Especially if they're regular SRK posters.

I don't really have any answers to your why questions though but its a pattern and its there. I don't fully understand it either.

Personally I love 3s. Always will. Its unbalanced alright. And I don't like how whiffing normals gives you meter. If they tweaked the balance and changed that aspect of it. Personally I'd like that.

But in truth I know people will go apeshit. I know Ramza's veins are popping reading what I just said about removing meter gains from wiffing from normals


I see where both sides are coming from , I mean ramza's being overly SRK by the way he posts but its not unreasonable to say you should at least be an experienced player before having such a definite opinion on it.

And by experienced I mean play the damn game the way you play sf4. For a few weeks. Not play it 3 times and try to play it like its a different SF game and make your judgments from that.

But anyway

GorySnake wrote: »

Im gonna stop posting in this thread til this debate is over, everyone is debating, Rebalance: Yes/No. I was debating whats the point in releasing this at all.

Well I see your point in that, PC is the best place to play online games. And 3s is already playable on pc in a better online environment then a console can provide. So why bother playing it on a console?

Well theres still many people out there who are fucking retarded when it comes to PC's to be blunt. So it'll get attention from them for one.

Two its the ease of access. It'd be very handy to have 3s on your console of choice there and ready and theres the hope that it'll have some graphical tweaks that make it look nicer.

You won't have to download a dreamcast emulator to play training mode.

I'll certainly be buying it. its one of my fav games of all time and chances are if I get into it I'll prob still end up mostly playing on GGPO but it'll complement that nicely.

DooM wrote:

Often times playing 3S I have felt I have been beaten by the mechanics of the game itself.

You have gotten some really odd impression of 3s. Honestly I don't think you've really played 3s yet. I think you need to give it a better chance.

Btw every time I jump over a guy cause I know he's going to ultra and the game auto corrects him and he still gets me, I feel that regarding SF4.

I then instantly think "well this is just sf4, I should have known it'd auto correct me and kill me and not done it"

The reason I do this though is cause for 2 years I was getting people with this in 3s.

And before the non 3s players jump up and say "but auto correct was in 3s" no it was not like that, not like sf4.

So you wanna talk about a game doing things that the player did not input, being beaten by the mechanics of a game, sf4 is much worse.

3s is a rush down game , there is room for zoning , just like there is room for rush down in sf4. When I moved from 3s to sf4 I had to learn to zone more and rush down less, you have to apply that the other way around when playing 3s.

Owwmykneecap wrote: »

I've no real interest in a rebalancing as I feel that would split the sf III scene especially from the jap players.

Imo in the end this is the best, anti tweaking argument I've read cause its pretty much the case. Even though I'd still rather the tweaks I said before.

Placebo wrote: »

Well let me tell you this, i've been playing 3S before you and when 3S was only available on XBL, i was a regular on that part of SRK. Matchmaking and general drivel talk, strategy section was pretty active.
That part of the forum has been dead for a few years now ! The old threads dont even show until you change the option.

That's cause online play on pc kick the **** out of it all and it moved to there. Not cause 3s died.

If anything, its only really been in the past year that 3s got a lot less popular. It was sf4.

With 2df and ggpo it was at the stage where if you were new to street fighter or new to playing online, 3s was the game you played. It was only the 'elitists' that were playing SF2 etc. 3s was actually the most accessible game.

Then HDR and SF4 came out and it changed all that.



I

Owwmykneecap wrote: »

A straight port onto 360 would see a massive player base boost, whether it is completely remade or not.

Agree.

UberPrinny_Baal wrote: »

If a game company was to say to me "Hey dawg! We is remaking your favourist game EVA! And we gonna put some new stuff in there, and change up some of the old stuff!"
I would say "That's awesome! There is a chance, however slight, you might just make my favourite ever game better! If you mess it up, that doesn't matter either, because I still have the original."

You seem to be of the opinion though, that if Capcom made "3S HDR", not only would this be terrible, but it would somehow ruin the original 3S.

This is what I don't understand.

I think the worry from people from Ramza's point of view is this:

If 'my' 3s comes out the way it is now , on the consoles , then it'll be great cause there'll be loads of new and returning players to play and it'll generally boost the population of players, playing the game I love, giving it more life.

If its not 'my' 3s and rather a modified 'dumbed down version' (anything but what I'm playing now) then I won't play it, I'll keep playing 'my' one. However now any new or returning player won't come to play my 3s , they'll play the other one. And I'll even LOSE players from my scene, who'll move to the other 3s, and I'll only be left with like minded players, a number that'll diminish over time, as numbers grow higher for the new 3s. Ultimately doing a lot of damage to 'my 3s scene'.

---

At least that's how it seems to me.

Azza wrote: »

The whole HDR is filth is abit bizzare.

It is to me too but thats the way it is. I don't play ST enough to understand it so I don't argue. But I would have assumed if we were gonna play SF2 in this community it'd be HDR. Yet I know all the SF2 heads here will go mad and demanded ST, but not only ST but some other crazy argument that I don't understand involving different feckin versions of ST :confused


(remembers the 1st DOC thread)

UberPrinny_Baal

Glad to hear you're coming around to my way of thinking Ramza.

I'm feeling too lazy right now to methodically quote your points, so I'm going short hand on this one:

"Got to the end game" I guess is MMO terminology I shouldn't use on a FG forum, but it means what there is to do in the game after you hit the level cap (raids mostly). The metagame of 3S doesn't sound very appealing to me because it's largely set in stone. Games that old don't have very big shake-ups in their metagame this far down the line, unless they get a sudden big influx of new players, which is unlikely without a rerelease/rebalance.

I can't comment on who is qualified to confirm/refute the "Chun/Yun/Ken" claim, because as I mentioned I know nothing about this game. You clearly do, so you're allowed to disagree with me, but the internet has definitely given me the impression this is the case.

I don't see the problem with easy inputs. It's the same thing as adding a rebalanced mode. It would be a 'concession' you don't want to make to attract the new players you desperately want. I don't see any reason why it's bad. Street Fighter at it's highest level isn't about being able to do the moves, it's knowing when to do them.

TvC has a SUPER easy input mode, which are similar to the Smash Bros special move commands, so I was able to teach it to my girlfriend (because she's played smash but not SF) and have fun matches with her. She even went on to destroy my nephews (who are GOOD at SF) using the easy inputs. How is more accessibility bad?

It's also just the principle that matters, 11 years on and they want to change it? Little silly to me. Will rebalancing it really make a difference?

It did in HDR (which I still don't understand why you dislike).

A pad Zangief just won Evo 2010 and shook up the metagame like whoh. People on SRK are bitching that the character they placed at bottom tier is overpowered. It's awesome.

On a smaller anecdotal level, Sirlin's design philosophy in HDR was to remove the mindless abusable stuff.

In our recent ST tourney, I won the first match of all my sets. In the two sets I lost my opponents switched to other characters, and then beat me with Balrogs Throw Loop and Vega's Walldive/knockdown mixup. It was frustrating to lose to them and both of these were toned down in HDR to make them less dominating.

I might not have won if it was HDR, but I definitely think I would have done a little better.

The fact that the top winning strategies in 3S are all set in stone, and will be done to perfect new players on day 1 of release I think will be MASSIVELY discouraging to them getting into the game.

I DO agree with you that only the top of the top players should be involved in the balancing, were it to happen, because they'll find the things that need nerfing.

But I disagree they should be the ones to decide if a remixed mode NEEDS to exist, because gamers on the whole are a bunch of whiny bitches who don't like change.

Sisko

3s isnt flooded with tin and ramza style players btw. Back when I played it I ended up at the stage where I generally would beat more people I played. And I wasn't very good.

Its not this game where theres billions of Tins and only 10 new people. :P

Also from what I understand people were discovering new **** in 3s up till pretty recently.

Scavenger XIII

On the matter of whether Chun/Yun/Ken really dominate play, just watch any random 3S ranbat, tournament, whatever.

Sure there's maybe 1 in 5 or so using a character from the second highest tier and the occasional heroic individual representing someone below that, but boy are they a rarity.

Sisko

Yeah its true, although I'm not seeing as much of a spread of characters in ssf4 in tournies as I'd like to see considering its a more balanced game , so I guess pointing out characters used in tournies is not the case closer in terms of rating a games balance.

UberPrinny_Baal

Sisko wrote: »

Uber you need to read this thead :

http://shoryuken.com/f2/why-hate-hdr-230262/

But look around you. All our SF2 fans in this community even, its always original ST. Never HDR.

I would far FAR prefer HDR, but I didn't want to bitch about it because I was new, and Ramza was very vocal about being against it.

I had a quick look at your thread, I got about 6 posts down before I closed it again. If there are any actual gems of wisdom, I'm going to make you find them yourself, not send me off looking for them. :P

I disagree with you that I "Need to go and play the game for 3 weeks" before I'm allowed have an opinion. I've said multiple times I know nothing about the game, but I'm in favour of the idea of a rebalance in theory and I'm amazed that people can be SOOOOO bitterly against it when it hasn't even been officially mentioned.

Sisko

I don't think you see where I'm coming from. I was like you, I too would prefer HDR and assumed it was a great thing for the sf2 crowd etc, then I read that thread (of which is amusing cause sirlin gets involved)

From reading it I'm no longer amazed.

I'm not saying agree with the reaction, I'm saying I'm no longer surprised by it and indeed expect it.


btw I never said anything about people not having an opinion. I was referring to some peoples misconceptions of the game. I'm just saying its better to have an informed opinion is all

UberPrinny_Baal

I'm not too interested in SRK drama, especially not 11 pages long.

Sirlin comes across as a jerk most of the time, even when I'm talking to him first hand in a chat, complimenting him on his card game and trying to give him more money he can act like a jerk. I don't think his people skills are very good, but I definitely love his design.

I don't think my argument needs my opinion to be more informed in order to be any more valid.

I'm not saying I think 3S is broken, but I do think a remixed version would draw in a lot more new players.

All I'm really arguing for is the concept that change isn't always bad.

Ramza

UberPrinny_Baal wrote: »

"Got to the end game" I guess is MMO terminology I shouldn't use on a FG forum, but it means what there is to do in the game after you hit the level cap (raids mostly). The metagame of 3S doesn't sound very appealing to me because it's largely set in stone. Games that old don't have very big shake-ups in their metagame this far down the line, unless they get a sudden big influx of new players, which is unlikely without a rerelease/rebalance.

I can't comment on who is qualified to confirm/refute the "Chun/Yun/Ken" claim, because as I mentioned I know nothing about this game. You clearly do, so you're allowed to disagree with me, but the internet has definitely given me the impression this is the case.

I don't see the problem with easy inputs. It's the same thing as adding a rebalanced mode. It would be a 'concession' you don't want to make to attract the new players you desperately want. I don't see any reason why it's bad. Street Fighter at it's highest level isn't about being able to do the moves, it's knowing when to do them.

TvC has a SUPER easy input mode, which are similar to the Smash Bros special move commands, so I was able to teach it to my girlfriend (because she's played smash but not SF) and have fun matches with her. She even went on to destroy my nephews (who are GOOD at SF) using the easy inputs. How is more accessibility bad?



It did in HDR (which I still don't understand why you dislike).

A pad Zangief just won Evo 2010 and shook up the metagame like whoh. People on SRK are bitching that the character they placed at bottom tier is overpowered. It's awesome.

On a smaller anecdotal level, Sirlin's design philosophy in HDR was to remove the mindless abusable stuff.

In our recent ST tourney, I won the first match of all my sets. In the two sets I lost my opponents switched to other characters, and then beat me with Balrogs Throw Loop and Vega's Walldive/knockdown mixup. It was frustrating to lose to them and both of these were toned down in HDR to make them less dominating.

I might not have won if it was HDR, but I definitely think I would have done a little better.

The fact that the top winning strategies in 3S are all set in stone, and will be done to perfect new players on day 1 of release I think will be MASSIVELY discouraging to them getting into the game.

I DO agree with you that only the top of the top players should be involved in the balancing, were it to happen, because they'll find the things that need nerfing.

But I disagree they should be the ones to decide if a remixed mode NEEDS to exist, because gamers on the whole are a bunch of whiny bitches who don't like change.

I still don't get what you mean lol. Fighting games as you know don't really have an end. You pick a character you like and you learn/use them. If your'e passionate and dedicated you can be the best

Easy inputs are silly for a game that already has them (3s reversal window is insane but 3s doesn't revolve around reversals, they suck in 3s). Input leniency is much much greater compared to SF2. Only things which are hard to do in 3s are specific stuff like Yun's Kara Palms/advanced Genei Jin combos, SJCs, Urien's combos, standing 720 and Makoto's kara fugigake, imho. Everything else is improved on since ST . Inputs are fine and don't need changing. If people are complaining about it in 3s well then I have to say it's quite silly

HDR Zangief is boooo. HCF 360s is too silly. 360ing in ST is maybe a little tough but it's just a think you have to learn as it revolves totally around Hawk and Gief's game. I got it down to a very comfortable level. What's stopping anyone else? I believe it is fair to say HDR Zangief is easy. If people still can't 360 after 20 or so years then I don't know tbh. 360 ticks need a reversal to escape and you need to be very good with your execution. Dumbing down 360 inputs and reversal windows make it silly

In the case of Boxer and Claw in ST they are hard to overcome and you really need to know what you are doing. Again I can't help but reply that you need to know the matches. I will agree and say that Boxer's throw loop and Claw's wall dive are a little silly, but still, not enough to make a whole new game fix for

Well what can you expect with a game that is 11 years old? If you play someone better than you, you will lose. It will be the same on GGPO too. You really need to start at your own pace and work up. A rebalance won't help that. Regardless of game, someone outplays you they outplay you. This is where the matchmaking aspect and who you play with to get better matters. You can't jump in at the deep end. This is one reason why I maybe disagree with the rebalance

It's discouraging getting into a game that is 11 years old and being tossed about. But do you know what is more encouraging to me? Having the courage to man up and just get better at the game. If you're willing to do it then the resources are out there. A rebalance isn't needed again in this case. People are talking and not doing I'm afraid. It's easy to say "I can't learn 3s because it's too late/too hard, give me a rebalance". It's harder to actually get up and do it

I'll probably be HUNG for saying this but it seems to me like the standard has really been lowered lately in FGs. Are people afraid to play the game as is? Pre SF4 games all had normal learning curves. IMO SF4 has a simple learning curve to appeal to new players. and it's not a bad thing but it's not a great thing either. HDR made the learning curve easier. To new players any other game seems to have a "hard" learning curve when it's quite simple. A part of me wants to tell people to just deal with it and play the game as is. Doesn't need a rebalance to be accessible

TBH not a lot of things need nerfing it's just what people want nerfing. IMHO there are a handful of things that do stick out but are not game breaking. Again it's easier for people of course to complain about it than train harder. Bringing me back to the mentality aspect of things

The only possible reason a remix mode would be needed is to attract new players, maybe. But even if it does, won't they still get stomped on by the things which are "set in stone"? Will it really change anything?

Scavenger XIII wrote: »

On the matter of whether Chun/Yun/Ken really dominate play, just watch any random 3S ranbat, tournament, whatever.

Sure there's maybe 1 in 5 or so using a character from the second highest tier and the occasional heroic individual representing someone below that, but boy are they a rarity.

Again it's easy to say that because for the most part it is true. But so what, people are playing because they like those characters and it's not tier whoring like in a certain game :rolleyes:

People don't play the lower tiers to be heroes, they play it because they enjoy the characters style. Tiers are for queers. Over the years look through the archives and you will find tonnes of players, nearly just as much as the "Yun/Chun/Ken" thing, who play other characters and absolutely dominate. You don't seem to be clearly informed on the matter and like I said it's easier to follow the herd and complain than open your eyes and see what's really there or try and work against it. Pushing for a rebalance for something not broken/wrong, which you and loads other say is, rather than easily work against it in your gameplay is silly

UberPrinny_Baal

I don't agree that making some inputs easier is "dumbing it down". The guy who won Evo CRUSHED all the top ST players. In a casual rotation he beat every single one of them without losing a game, and then did it all again. He made the best ST players in the world look free.

He didn't just do that because "HCF 360s is too silly", and it's ridiculous to claim otherwise.

Ramza wrote:

I will agree and say that Boxer's throw loop and Claw's wall dive are a little silly, but still, not enough to make a whole new game fix for

Well what can you expect with a game that is 11 years old? If you play someone better than you, you will lose.

You're kind of all over the place here Ramza. You agree they're silly, but you don't like that they've been changed. You want people to get into 3S, but you don't think they should have any reasonable expectation of winning in a game that old.

I did say that I had won all my matches and rounds up until the Balrog/Vega counterpicks. It didn't feel like I lost because I was worse (as I do when I lose in SSFIV), but I feel like I lost to the throw loop and wall dive themselves, and that was kind of frustrating.

Ramza wrote:

The only possible reason a remix mode would be needed is to attract new players, maybe. But even if it does, won't they still get stomped on by the things which are "set in stone"?

No, because the remix would theoretically take out whatever 3S's equivalent to the wall dive and throw loop were. Or at least make them something else. The main point being so people who have been playing it since the arcades don't automatically know what the best winning strategies are before the game launches.

Ramza wrote:

I'll probably be HUNG for saying this but it seems to me like the standard has really been lowered lately in FGs.

You can tell me to "man up" if you want Ramza, it doesn't affect any of my points :P

Ramza

UberPrinny_Baal wrote: »

You're kind of all over the place here Ramza. You agree they're silly, but you don't like that they've been changed. You want people to get into 3S, but you don't think they should have any reasonable expectation of winning in a game that old.

No, because the remix would theoretically take out whatever 3S's equivalent to the wall dive and throw loop were. Or at least make them something else. The main point being so people who have been playing it since the arcades don't automatically know what the best winning strategies are before the game launches.



You can tell me to "man up" if you want Ramza, it doesn't affect any of my points :P

I do agree they are silly and needed changing but not the whole game, inputs, and every character

I don't mind if players get into 3s or not If they do it's cool and if not then it's no loss. No, I don't mean it like that. I'm saying you should have no expectation of winning against someone who is clearly better than you. This is where the cries of "rebalance" are coming from. Any game if someone is better than you, you will lose

Okay, let's say Yun's Genei Jin has longer meter(harder to build) but depletes at same rate. Let's say Chun's SA2 now has one stock. Someone new to the game faces a really good Yun/Chun player and they walk all over them, which is to be expected. What is there to say other than the player was clearly better than you? What are people going to derive next? Player skill is the biggest and last factor here. No matter what we change it's still going to happen. You lose you lose and you learn to get better.The game is eleven years old and there are gonna be reurning players whether we like it or not, who are much better than the newcomer. The newcomer has to put in the time to get better like everyone did before. That being said there should be no split between who is good and who is bad. You have to start on your own too feet

It seems to me you can only go so far with these things which are supposedly set in stone until you break it down to player skill, which is what I have been debating since page one.

Even if they rebalance it the players will still know the winning strategies. It wont affect anything. Things will change but people are still going to be just as good and still going to win if they are better than you. This is a fact of life I'm afraid. More time and input yields better results. Playing with the right people is how you level up. Which is why online is a blessing for people who have/had no scenes, like me and farz and countless others. Anyone can do it

Nah I'm not directing the "man up" statement at you Just speaking in generals

Scavenger XIII

I'm getting closer and closer to just wanting to post a big "FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF" image macro... :pac:

UberPrinny_Baal

Ramza wrote: »

I do agree they are silly and needed changing but not the whole game, inputs, and every character

I'm just happy I've gotten you to admit that something in HDR was needed.

Needed!

I might just put this quote in my sig.

Your basic point here though, is that "Changes are retarded, unless I personally agree with them. Those ones are cool."

Which is a wildly inconsistent point of view.

Ramza wrote:

It seems to me you can only go so far with these things which are supposedly set in stone until you break it down to player skill, which is what I have been debating since page one.

Player skill will absolutely decide things at the end of the day, but twirling a stick 360 and hitting punch doesn't constitute skill any more or less than doing it F>HCF.

I can't argue with you about specific 3S changes, but I think changing up the metagame would be cool.

I'm for change on the basis that the end result might be better. That's what I've been debating since I threw my two cents in here.

I seem to have dented your steadfast resolve enough that I'm pretty happy overall though.

Dreddybajs

UberPrinny_Baal wrote: »

I can't comment on who is qualified to confirm/refute the "Chun/Yun/Ken" claim, because as I mentioned I know nothing about this game. You clearly do, so you're allowed to disagree with me, but the internet has definitely given me the impression this is the case.

If others are pointing out informal fallacies in Ramza's arguments I feel like I may as well point out stuff like blatant arguments from authority in the people arguing against him.

I don't feel like there's much I can add to the debate here, as I think this whole thread is a circus of people posting, then ignoring other people's points and creating new ones, et cetera, while most lack a fundamental understanding of the subject they're arguing about.

I think I know more about and play 3rd strike better than most posters in this thread and I wouldn't dream to think I had a valuable opinion on whether it should be rebalanced or not.

Honestly I think most of you are just arguing for the sake of argument, but I guess that's the point of the internet.

K.O.Kiki

Just FYI, 360 done as HCF, UF has LESS motions than HCF, N, B.
The only difference is the player doesn't have to worry about the jump coming out by accident, or DUE TO ST'S WILDLY VARIABLE INPUT SYSTEM.

Also, ST was broke as hell, and needed fixing -- certain Supers can't reverse, certain moves are punishable BETWEEN hits, certain moves don't knock down when they should. Stuff like that needed fixing, and you know it.

Dreddybajs

UberPrinny_Baal wrote: »

Player skill will absolutely decide things at the end of the day, but twirling a stick 360 and hitting punch doesn't constitute skill any more or less than doing it F>HCF.

It absolutely does as you don't need to worry about jumping accidentally, you can buffer the latter input all day safely. Please think about this stuff before you post.

Ramza

UberPrinny_Baal wrote: »

I'm just happy I've gotten you to admit that something in HDR was needed.

Needed!

I might just put this quote in my sig.

Your basic point here though, is that "Changes are retarded, unless I personally agree with them. Those ones are cool."

Which is a wildly inconsistent point of view.



Player skill will absolutely decide things at the end of the day, but twirling a stick 360 and hitting punch doesn't constitute skill any more or less than doing it F>HCF.

I can't argue with you about specific 3S changes, but I think changing up the metagame would be cool.

I'm for change on the basis that the end result might be better. That's what I've been debating since I threw my two cents in here.

I seem to have dented your steadfast resolve enough that I'm pretty happy overall though.

I admitted things which are needed in ST/3S other games a lot. This thread is an example as you can see

Isn't that only right for a game this old though? Capcom need to ask the skilled players around the world for opinions. Then make a general consensus of agreement. Nothing wrong with saying something is retarded when it's your opinion, and when, maybe it may seem silly to some

That's the thing because it does. Tonnes of people can't 360 but some can. In ST it took work. You're seeing it different. There's loads other examples of things which will take the same form if changed

Is just as easy then surely you're for not changing stuff? :pac:

I'm all for change but change done right, in the right places and done properly I guess. I'm just very sensitive on the issue but you can't blame me for my approach

Azza's question he posed to me was the one which really made me consider my position. It's all debating and everyone is entitled to their say. Ultimately I feel a rebalance will do close to nothing if nothing, and only upset more people it will make happy.

3s is no different to ST. Look at the negative response HDR got and for the right reasons. Also though we need to consider the positive response it got to be ultimately fair. I don't want the same thing to happen to 3s and it doesn't need it. A whole entire autopsy of the game is not needed. Changing some stuff would be cool but at the end of the day the main trump card people seem to play is that it gets people into the game. These people had no standard anyway and can learn as is now. Even if they get into the game now with these honest to goodness changes people talk about, you're still going to lose to better players

What's next to blame?

Ramza

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

Just FYI, 360 done as HCF, UF has LESS motions than HCF, N, B.
The only difference is the player doesn't have to worry about the jump coming out by accident, or DUE TO ST'S WILDLY VARIABLE INPUT SYSTEM.

Also, ST was broke as hell, and needed fixing -- certain Supers can't reverse, certain moves are punishable BETWEEN hits, certain moves don't knock down when they should. Stuff like that needed fixing, and you know it.

ST as a game had a huge random factor. Ken, Sagat and Sim can't reversal super. All this was changed in the DC version and there was no need for a HDR imo. Not broken imo but not perfect either. No game is. Deal with it