To rush..or not to rush?

DeadlyByDesign

So in every RTS i have played I have always been anti rush strat. What is the view here? Is it a valid tactic or a cheap sucker punch?

Kirby

There is no such thing as a cheap tactic. There are winning tactics and losing tactics.

Burgo

Kirby wrote: »

There is no such thing as a cheap tactic. There are winning tactics and losing tactics.

and the cheese tactic, don't forget the cheese :pac:

DeadlyByDesign

so we are settled on cheese then?

gearoidof

what's an anti rush strat?

If you scout your opponent, see he's rushing, and go for a build to counter that, gratz, you win. If you go anti rush strat without knowing what he's doing, you'll probably end up losing on econ.

If you mean turtling, turtling involves making a quarter of the map unassailable, but giving up a claim on the other 3 quarters. A question of whether to sketch out a swathe of territory, or ensure a small bit of it. If you play go (and SC2 and go have crossover), then you'd know this is a bad idea, because your opponent, while not having as great a claim on the land, can still use the land, and as such, has a much bigger econ, and thus a much bigger army, and thus he wins

Jonny7

Its really quite complex..

You can hold off any cheese/rushes if you scout well and see it coming..

Then it comes down to your micro vs his micro in the ensuing fight, who comes out of the situation better, the counterattack, who keeps applying pressure at the right time, the better macro, the better unit composition, the continual scouting

If you are new to the game, then yes, you will be in fear of a rush, however as time passes and you learn to scout then you'll become more knowledgeable and less afraid of what lurks in the darkness beyond..

If you intend playing the game to a higher level, then I would probably suggest playing random for a bit, it gives you a feel for all races and their capabilities, but most importantly you get to grasp each races' limitations and weaknesses

Gummy Panda

You could also force your opponent to have to produce certain units by going down a certain tech yourself. Going early void rays against a terran so he has to stop producing mauraders and make marines. Also terran would more then likey go engineering bay and missle turrets to defend.

While terran is doing this you could be massing speed zealots and stalkers with some dark templars.

DirkVoodoo

You can rush any type of unit, like gearoidof says it's about seeing his build order and designing a counter.

I haven't much experience in SC2 rushes (yet!) but SC1 rushes were very much map dependent.

Obviously if you know the map, you can guess what might be the rush without having to scout. Bit of a gamble, yes, but I like the maps with the destructible terrain which makes early unit rushes difficult.

I spammed a whole load of warp rays against a friend, he didn't really have a counter and it swung the game in my favour. I used to just go straight for a carrier spam with hallucination and maybe dragoon backup in SC1.

Essentially, if we start some games on here, I would like to know beforehand is it rush or no rush. It's just good manners

Dustaz

As a complete rts noob one of the hardest things i had to learn in the beta was dealing with rushes. I was at least a week or two in before i stopped just gg'ing and quitting after a quick zergling or 4gate rush.

From my experience in the beta, roughly 50% of the games youll play will involve some sort of early pressure rush but most times its straightforward enough to hold it off. Theres a couple of 'all in' strats that each race can do and these are very hard to hold off, but if you can youve more or less won.

I have no idea how all this differs from BW but i'm pretty sure sc2 is a different beast and it will find its own equilibrium after release.

Agreeing to rush/no rush before games sounds a bit lame if you ask me:)

DeVore

If someone asks me if I am going to rush or not, I'll giggle and most likely lie.

Its a part of the game for me, rushing isnt free you know, you end up hurting your econ in the long run because you divert resources early on which should be going into your econ, into troups.

I played Zerg in SC1 and rushing was a definite tactic for Zerg, in fact if the game got to the midpoint, Zerg were in trouble as they had few hard hitting late game troups. dont get me wrong, Zerg could still win, but the longer the game went on the more the odds swung against Zerg.


Rushing is a high risk strategy. If it fails, it hurts, baaad. If it succeeds, its crippling and often fatal. It is risk/reward and part of the game, imho.

DeV.

gearoidof

Aye, if someone asks me to play no rush, I lol.

Though, this said, terrans just block their chokepoint and lol @ the zerg rushers.

DirkVoodoo

Smiley face people.

Nody

Rush? Never... *jedi mind trick* That was not a baneling nest you saw in my base; that was not the baneling nest you were looking for*

Jonny7

Some of the rushes so far in Starcraft 2 - feel free to add some more

Zerg

-6 pool (6 workers then build a pool) then produce 6 zerglings as fast as possible

-8 pool, same as above but actually has some sort of economy after the 6/8 zerling rush

-Baneling bust; go straight for banelings, when 5 or 6 + zerglings, destroy the Terran wall

Terran

-Hellion rush; build a barracks + reactor, then factory, when done lift and land factory on reactor and lay waste to his mineral lines with hellions

-Reaper rush; wall off your base and go straight for a few reapers, when done harass

-Marine pushes; just build barracks and pump marines, can push with 30 - 35 marines at 6 min mark which will crush almost anything if done well (marines one of the best damage/cost/

-Banshee rush; 4 mins 30 secs for 2 cloaked banshee's.. demolishes zerg if they don't have overseers or sporecrawlers


Protoss

-Zealot pump, just get gateways up and pump those zealots, surprisingly strong

-Voidray rush, hide a pylon and build 2 stargates somewhere on the map close to his base, save chrono boost for the Voidrays, really effective against Zerg


Am in work, can't focus, there's plenty more

Dacian

Rushing is a viable strategy in SCII. When myself and mates played SCI we often had a rule of no attacks for 10 minutes, we wanted mass carriers/cruisers/muta battles. But unless its a mate and you particularly want to play a long game asking for no rushes seems a bit lame.

Why not pick a 4-6 players map and that will prevent very quick rushes. You still need to have a defense rush or no rush.

Jonny7

Just remembered, there's also newbie maps, which are same as originals but with destructable rocks blocking the chokes in the bases

DeVore

gearoidof wrote: »

Aye, if someone asks me to play no rush, I lol.

Though, this said, terrans just block their chokepoint and lol @ the zerg rushers.

If the Terran player turtles in a choke point, I just back right off immediately and park outside his base. Terran players love to turtle but it's terrible strategy IMHO. I haven't played SC2 yet so it might not be the same.
if the Terran player turtles like that , I consider it a successful rush!!!!

DeV.

RoyalMarine

ive come up against some excellent tactics, and some amazing cheese

one dude landed a command centre and build a fortress with a few scv's repairing.

almost killed me

myself and brother share control, and sometimes go reaper rush. if we both go terran, we can double the amount of reapers we have and it anilates them most of the time.

Dacian

RoyalMarineComm wrote: »

ive come up against some excellent tactics, and some amazing cheese

one dude landed a command centre and build a fortress with a few scv's repairing.

Love the audacity of the Planetary Fortress Rush!

c0rk3r

Copper league cannon rushers

RoyalMarine

c0rk3r wrote: »

Copper league cannon rushers

a dreadful tactic that can easily win, but if countered properly, can be very very costly to the one who tries it.

TheDoc

Rushing is pretty much part and parcel of every single RTs game and its usually dont in two ways.

a)A terrible player who only knows how to rush
b)A player whose scouted you thinks he can overpower you early

As said above if you overcome a rush its pretty much a win for you unless your terrible.
If you fail to fend it off its a loss for you.

Rushes can be straight forward to defend, you are best having something outside on a wide permiter to scope out if the enemy is rushing, then try engage outside your base, this gives you time to keep economy flowing and resupply along with getting up some cheap quick defences.

The goal of the rush is not really to win outright, it is to cripple the enemies ecnomony early on, to gain the upper hand.

Overheal

Gummy Panda wrote: »

You could also force your opponent to have to produce certain units by going down a certain tech yourself. Going early void rays against a terran so he has to stop producing mauraders and make marines. Also terran would more then likey go engineering bay and missle turrets to defend.

actually that just pushes me to build Vikings which are an impressive unit either way. I can honestly say i haven't built that many turrets in ladder matches.

Gummy Panda

Overheal wrote: »

actually that just pushes me to build Vikings which are an impressive unit either way. I can honestly say i haven't built that many turrets in ladder matches.

Unless you went early air, you won't have enough Vikings out in time.

Jonny7

bog standard marines are nearly the best antiair in the game, they'll even rip down carriers

Put it this way you could just produce marines during a game and still be able to win

Overheal

Gummy Panda wrote: »

Unless you went early air, you won't have enough Vikings out in time.

You wont have enough out before he has say 2-4 prisms at your back door but if you're going straight to vikings you have a lot of excess mineral to be building marines with in the meanwhile, and thats what consists of your early-hit counter.

@Johnny they're just too squishy in the early-mid game for my liking. Im much happier with them when you can get a medivac out.

Oh and here's to the guy who didnt rebuild his Medivacs after 2 of my vikings hit them: sent an army of marines and marauders at my cousin and kept stimming them up like a damn fool

Einstein

Brand new to SC since Tuesday, and am terrified to meet any of you peeps online

Overheal

you'll be grand, the ladder system seems to take into account your wins, losses, and scores: how many units you're producing, minerals you're gathering, kills you're making, etc. And then places you in a division and chapter of similar skillset players. I'm already getting familiar with 1 or 2 opponents on my ladder.

Gummy Panda

Overheal wrote: »

you'll be grand, the ladder system seems to take into account your wins, losses, and scores: how many units you're producing, minerals you're gathering, kills you're making, etc. And then places you in a division and chapter of similar skillset players. I'm already getting familiar with 1 or 2 opponents on my ladder.

It checks APM as well i think. So it knows who is using one hand and who is rapidly using keybinds. Nothing worse then going up against some with really good micro.