Senna feature on Top Gear tonight

G-Money

Apparently Clarkson is doing a feature on Senna tonight. I hope it's good.

G-Money

Great feature. Top Gear is repeated at 7pm on BBC 2 tomorrow night.

PrettyBoy

After watching the Senna segment earlier I feel a little sick over what went on in todays GP

FrostyJack

I thought it was great up until the end when they introduced his "biggest fan ever", I immediately let out a massive F off to the tv.

After watching the Senna segment earlier I feel a little sick over what went on in todays GP

You must have missed some of it selectively so.............

Myrddin

FrostyJack wrote: »

I thought it was great up until the end when they introduced his "biggest fan ever", I immediately let out a massive F off to the tv.



You must have missed some of it selectively so.............

TG isn't really meant to be taken for gospel, the "biggest fan ever" was celebrety cr@p but he IS a big fan, nonetheless.

The action clips they showed were brilliant, looked like REAL racing, I wasn't around back then but they looked so on the limit I could have watched it all night.

G-Money

I thought it was a nice touch letting Hamilton drive the car. He's a huge Senna fan and always has been.

Kersh

He's a huge Senna fan and always has been

No better man to drive that car. Anyone that says any different is a shortsighted fukwit :mad:

He has been a fan all his life, and has always said as much. Im delighted it was him who did. He currently drives for the team Senna took his 3 titles with, his lid looks the same as Sennas, he is the best man in the world to drive that MP4-4.

Great feature, gave the Great Man his just dues.

Ghost Train

grandmaster wrote: »

I thought it was a nice touch letting Hamilton drive the car. He's a huge Senna fan and always has been.

Watched the video of Button and Hamilton earlier today in the motorsport Video thread. It was nice to then see him get to take the car out after seeing him enjoy just sitting in the car.

FrostyJack

No better man to drive that car. Anyone that says any different is a shortsighted fukwit

I think a guy called Rubens might say differently....:rolleyes:

Kersh

Rubens didnt grow up admiring Senna, and openly saying he was a great fan, nor did he drive for McLaren, which is an important part of the priveledge to take the car out. So I think you are wrong there. Absolutely wrong :rolleyes:

furiousox

Really enjoyed that segment, saw Senna race twice in Silverstone (91/92) and in Spa the year Barrichello put the Jordan on pole (95?)
I was shouting for the Jordans and I think Senna ran out of fuel at both the Silverstone races!
I remember the day he died too (bit of a JFK moment) so I found that whole segment mesmerising...brought back a lot of good memories.

EvilMonkey

I cringe every time Hamilton mentions Senna, it doesn't seem genuine to me. Good for his carer though.
If it is genuine i don't get why he hams it up for tv why not keep it personal?

johnmcdnl

I was too young to remember senna but have always heard his name mentioned as one of the greats and seeing some of that footage this evening was mesmerising... it's probably the first time I've seen why he was regarded as the greatest..... watching him take those bends it really did look like he didn't break at all... what an amazing driver - just always in control

I really wish I could have seen him drive because no one will ever drive like that again I don't think...

Really unfortunate that he had that accident

RIP Aryton Senna

frostie500

Kersh wrote: »

Rubens didnt grow up admiring Senna, and openly saying he was a great fan, nor did he drive for McLaren, which is an important part of the priveledge to take the car out. So I think you are wrong there. Absolutely wrong :rolleyes:

Rubens was 11 or 12 when Senna started in F1 and Senna helped him immensly through his career with the two becoming firm friends so he would have been well placed to drive the car. But lets be honest the most fitting driver of that car was Bruno Senna when he took it up the Goodwood hill last year.

EvilMonkey wrote: »

I cringe every time Hamilton mentions Senna, it doesn't seem genuine to me. Good for his carer though.
If it is genuine i don't get why he hams it up for tv why not keep it personal?

I think he's very genuine, but can understand why you think it should be more of a personal thing. The main reason I think its genuine it is that I'm only 12 days younger than Lewis and Senna was one of my childhood heroes as well, with my first ever memories of Senna crashing in Monaco while comfortably ahead in 88.

I can recall so many races of his from before he died and those memories formed a great deal of what I believed racing and F1 was all about. After he died I then gravitated towards Schumi seeing the obvious parallels between the pair. Hamilton was racing karts when Senna was still alive so I can easily understand how a, lets say, four-nine year old Hamilton saw Senna as his hero, and also how no other driver was able to replace Senna as his hero

PrettyBoy

FrostyJack wrote: »

You must have missed some of it selectively so.............

No mate, I watched it all but, despite being an avid Ferrari fan, I can't help but be disappointed with the way the sports gone in recent years as opposed to the way it was 20 years ago.

EvilMonkey

PrettyBoy wrote: »

No mate, I watched it all but, despite being an avid Ferrari fan, I can't help but be disappointed with the way the sports gone in recent years as opposed to the way it was 20 years ago.

In 20 years they will be saying the same things. Thanks to Ferrari today we have a 5 way fight for the drivers title and a 3 way fight for the constructors championship

@frostie500 Bruno drove it at Goodwood this year too. I imagine TopGears main audience would prefer Hamilton.

Maybe Hamilton is Genuine but he is the only driver who constantly talking about him on TV. Schumacher crying in the press conference felt way more genuine to me.

frostie500

EvilMonkey wrote: »

In 20 years they will be saying the same things. Thanks to Ferrari today we have a 5 way fight for the drivers title and a 3 way fight for the constructors championship

@frostie500 Bruno drove it at Goodwood this year too. I imagine TopGears main audience would prefer Hamilton.

Maybe Hamilton is Genuine but he is the only driver who constantly talking about him on TV. Schumacher crying in the press conference felt way more genuine to me.

I think he drove the MP4-4 last year and he drove the 93 car this year, could well be wrong, but yeah having Lewis drive was much better for the audience.

I think your'e right in that Hamilton does talk about Senna too much, to be honest it must be tough for Bruno to hear so much. If you didnt know you'd think it was Lewis who was his nephew! Schumacher crying was one of the most surprising things Ive ever seen, it was so out of character and the fact that Schumi never really spoke of Senna made it even more shocking. Ive always thought that with Schumi being the driver immediatly behind Senna at Imola was the reason for it and he was afraid of opening such a wound in public but that day he couldnt help himself and everyone saw into his soul that day in a way that we've never seen again

PrettyBoy

frostie500 wrote: »

But lets be honest the most fitting driver of that car was Bruno Senna when he took it up the Goodwood hill last year.

Agree 100% but Top Gear is British, so....

amacachi

Kersh wrote: »

No better man to drive that car. Anyone that says any different is a shortsighted fukwit :mad:

That put me in my place, I thought a young man named Bruno would've been better to put in the car.

LIGHTNING wrote: »

That is quite funny considering Senna did some truly shocking things in F1, things that would get a driver a nice long ban these days.

Aye, there's some glasses being worn of the rose-tinted variety.

I dunno if I thought that much of the video tbh, seen most of it before and there was one particular video on youtube which gave me goosebumps every time I saw it til FOM got it removed. It had bits of everything, the race weekend with Barrichello's miraculous escape, Ratzenburger's crash and the build-up to the race, Ayrton sitting in the car looking not right. It's probably stupid to say now that we know what happened, but he just looked like he was at some kind of peace or something, he didn't look as intense as he usually did. One clip I always thought was great was Prost at the funeral, he must've felt so odd, this man he always hated was gone just a few months after he'd retired. There were parts of the weekend that they didn't or barely mentioned at all. One detail I think should've been mentioned was the Austrian flag he had with him to pay tribute to Ratzenburger once he'd won the race.
I suppose I'm most likely looking at this from a different perspective than it was intended to be viewed from.

FrostyJack

The only person in the World less genuine than Hamilton is his girlfriend. I would not believe anything out of his mouth. I'm sure he did like Senna but I doubt he went to McLaren to follow in his foot steps, if he had of went to Williams he would have said the same, "I wanted to be in the last car he was raced in", If he went to Red Bull "I wanted to be in the car ran by his favourite beverage" etc etc.

Forgot all about Bruno, but I still think Rubens would have been a better choice, Bruno would have been so young when he died, Rubens idiolised him so much.

In recent weeks I was complaining about Top Gear going boring now (though I enjoyed yesterdays one), and should go back to the original format of actually reviewing cars rather than stupid "challenges". Everything from start to finish is so staged and predictable, even the last few seasons they have placed all the good looking girls at the front to add more to the eye candy

Frank Bullitt

Great tribute,just showed the amazing talent,skill and ruthlessness he possessed,only a few drivers have that today.

Wasnt a fan of the Hamilton part though,would have suited the overall mood better if Bruno or maybe Schumacher drove an older car of his,but hey we can always wish and we all have our own opinions.

Kersh

That put me in my place, I thought a young man named Bruno would've been better to put in the car

If you were paying attention over the years you would know that Bruno already drove it.

I dont believe anyone that Senna competed against should drive his car. That just what I personally think. It would just sit wrong with me. Rubens included.

maybe Schumacher drove an older car of his

That would be the worst thing ever. IMO, its his illegal car (and we already know Flavio will cheat when he can) that forced Senna to stretch as much as he did in trying to beat it. I hold Schumacher partially responsible for Sennas death in this regard. And dont start going on about that nothing was proven etc . . Flavio now has form in the cheating game, and he will cheat when he can, and he did in 94 with that Benetton. And Schumacher knew and used the illegal aids on that car, and stretched Senna to breaking point. Senna would have beaten Schumacher on an equal basis that year. But the Benetton was outside the rules.

FrostyJack

That would be the worst thing ever. IMO, its his illegal car (and we already know Flavio will cheat when he can) that forced Senna to stretch as much as he did in trying to beat it. I hold Schumacher partially responsible for Sennas death in this regard. And dont start going on about that nothing was proven etc . . Flavio now has form in the cheating game, and he will cheat when he can, and he did in 94 with that Benetton. And Schumacher knew and used the illegal aids on that car, and stretched Senna to breaking point. Senna would have beaten Schumacher on an equal basis that year. But the Benetton was outside the rules.

In all the years of being on boards, this has to be the worst thing I have ever read. Fair play mate :eek:

BoardsRanger

FrostyJack wrote: »

In all the years of being on boards, this has to be the worst thing I have ever read. Fair play mate :eek:

+1000000!!! Seriously- how do people come up with such tripe!

Kersh

In all the years of being on boards, this has to be the worst thing I have ever read. Fair play mate

Take your head out of the sand, bet you think Ferrari are the only team who use team orders these days too :rolleyes: , look at the bigger picture

Cookie_Monster

That piece was nothing but filler material, the whole TG episode was ****e

Frank Bullitt

Kersh wrote: »

I
That would be the worst thing ever. IMO, its his illegal car (and we already know Flavio will cheat when he can) that forced Senna to stretch as much as he did in trying to beat it. I hold Schumacher partially responsible for Sennas death in this regard. And dont start going on about that nothing was proven etc . . Flavio now has form in the cheating game, and he will cheat when he can, and he did in 94 with that Benetton. And Schumacher knew and used the illegal aids on that car, and stretched Senna to breaking point. Senna would have beaten Schumacher on an equal basis that year. But the Benetton was outside the rules.

**SNIP*

Kersh

Are you all that short sighted? That you think the Benetton had no bearing on where F1 arrived at on May 1st 1994?Mmust be a load od schumi fans on here. For sure he is at least 5-10% responsible for what went on that year.

*SNIP*

Frank Bullitt

Kersh wrote: »

Are you all that short sighted? That you think the Benetton had no bearing on where F1 arrives at on may 1st 1994? must be a load od schumi fans on here.



*SNIP

Sorry mate,your delusional if you honestly believe that, your honestly trying to shift the blame onto Schumacher over the death of Senna, get a grip.

Kersh

Absolutely not, im saying he was a factor in the accident, (and thus not qualified to drive an Mp4-4)and everything leading up to it. The fact that Senna died is just bad luck, but read the books, Senna knew the benetton was illegal, he had to drive out of his skin tio beat it, and that lead to pushing too hard on cold tyres, stalled the diffuser on the Williams and sent him off.

Frank Bullitt

Kersh wrote: »

Absolutely not, im saying he was a factor in the accident, (and thus not qualified to drive an Mp4-4)and everything leading up to it. The fact that Senna died is just bad luck, but read the books, Senna knew the benetton was illegal, he had to drive out of his skin tio beat it, and that lead to pushing too hard on cold tyres, stalled the diffuser on the Williams and sent him off.

Your a confused person.

Kersh

You havent given any valid reason whatsoever to eliminate the illegal benetton as being a factor in Sennas mindset Come on . . . you tell me why Senna was under so much pressure at Imola to score points or win . .

Read the 1st paragraph, and the end part of the "initial allegations" paragraph , Senna knew he was up against it , and just stretched to far.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_cheating_in_the_1994_Formula_One_season

Cookie_Monster

Kersh wrote: »

You havent given any valid reason whatsoever to eliminate the illegal benetton as being a factor in Sennas mindset Come on . . . you tell me why Senna was under so much pressure at Imola to score points or win . .

Read the 1st paragraph, and the end part of the "initial allegations" paragraph , Senna knew he was up against it , and just stretched to far.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_cheating_in_the_1994_Formula_One_season

and in that very same first paragraph it state the FIA couldn't find proof of cheating... so drop the "Benneton was illegal" crap will you.

The team were alleged to have been using illegal software to their advantage in races; however, this could not be sufficiently proven by the FIA

Kersh

Oh right then, cos they couldnt prove it they mustnt have been using it :rolleyes:

Like Lightning has said, its my opinion, that I have come to, over the past 15 years, gradually I might say, but thats where Im at with it. When the whole tragic day is looked at, I believe that Senna would have comfortably beaten a legal Benetton . . and maybe, just maybe he might not have pushed as hard on cold tyres and had the accident. I actually dont hold anyone responsible, or blame anyone, for the accident, but there were a lot of factors that brought F1 to that incident that year.

G-Money

Jeepers. I just started this thread to let everyone know the feature was on as I figured the Senna fans (like myself) might enjoy it.

I didn't think it would turn into full scale war!

Kersh

Ah this always comes up when you mention Senna, and Schumacher creeps into the thread

In the end, we all have our opinions, mine gathered over many years of thinking about it, and the many reasons.

Frank Bullitt

Kersh wrote: »

You havent given any valid reason whatsoever to eliminate the illegal benetton as being a factor in Sennas mindset Come on . . . you tell me why Senna was under so much pressure at Imola to score points or win . .

Read the 1st paragraph, and the end part of the "initial allegations" paragraph , Senna knew he was up against it , and just stretched to far.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_cheating_in_the_1994_Formula_One_season

I would say the main reason he was pushing was because he was racing, its what Senna did all the time.

Was there not allegations of the steering column breaking in his hands as well???

Cookie_Monster

Kersh wrote: »

Oh right then, cos they couldnt prove it they mustnt have been using it :rolleyes:

that's not what I said

they may well have been using it. but unless they're caught all allegations are groundless and immaterial and the car was fully legal. End of.

Kersh

Like I said, I dont know what caused the accident, I have arrived at the best conclusion I can, taking into account everything in the 94 season up to that point.

To take the accident on its own and deal with it is wrong i think. Many many factors are involved - Sennas mindset, knowing what he was up against, the bumpy track, the safety car, the Williams suffering all year with the stalling diffuser, etc - and this is the conclusion i reached.

If by some miracle they released footage showing the column breaking I would change my opinion in a flash, or showed evidence of a sudden puncture, again I would change it.

Call me what you want, say what you like, but please look at 1994 as a whole before you arrive at Imola that afternoon. Take into account absolutely everything.

FrostyJack

Oh right then, cos they couldnt prove it they mustnt have been using it

The issue I had with your statement was associating Senna's death to Benneton/Schumacher. By that logic you could say anyone who died during Senna's era would make him a murder because they were trying to keep up with him?? Frank Williams had more to blame than anyone else, he should be your first port of call.

Going on about cheating and traction control is slightly off topic.

Kersh

IMO its still a mitigating factor in the accident.

I love Schumacher, so dont think im anti Schumi.

Like I said, I have slowly put all this to where its at for me.

For those that dont think or believe about the 94 Benetton, ask why Schumi was DQd from Silverstone that year . . could it have been his launch control kicking in on the warm up lap instead of the race start??? Hmmmmmmm (he then ignored the black flag etc etc . . ) but what caused his car to catapullt off the line like it did?

frostie500

Apart from the legalities of the Benetton its worth remembering Senna's mental state on that day, he had no points heading to Imola after spinning out at home in Brazil and being punted off at the first turn at Aida(by Larini?) and he came to Imola knowing that it was win or bust for his title charge.

Rubens had a massive crash and was lucky to survive on the Friday and Senna was in the medical centre with him for most of the evening. He then arrived on Saturday having called a drivers meeting to discuss safety. Then when Ratsenburger crashed Senna was visibly unstable in the paddock and didnt know what to do. He openly talked to people like Sid Watkins about not competing(Watkins has confirmed this in numerous interviews) and had plans to leave Imola and return to Brazil on the Saturday night-Jo Rameriz convinced him to sleep on it and if he still felt that way in the morning a jet was waiting in Bologna for him.

His mind was in turmoil that weekend and obviously while the Benetton was centre to that at the start of the week, there were already allegations at that point of the season, its worth remembering that the Williams was a poor car at the start of that season and that Senna openly admitted to struggling to get it competitive. They had a redevelopment package planned for Imola but i think it didnt end up on the car until Barcelona(could be wrong, its a long time ago!) But by the time the race started his mind was cluttered by seeing his friend nearly die and a colleague die. Senna had never experienced a death at a track and it clearly affected him very strongly.

In my view it was the circumstances of the weekend that had more to do with Senna's mental state than the Benetton's legality but as I said in the run up to the race his mind was full of that issue and his teams problems with their own car. His was clearly a cluttered mind as he started the race with so many emotions flying through him and ultimately (in my view) this was the main contributory factor to his accident.

BoardsRanger

Kersh wrote: »

I hold Schumacher partially responsible for Sennas death in this regard.

Kersh wrote: »

I actually dont hold anyone responsible, or blame anyone, for the accident, but there were a lot of factors that brought F1 to that incident that year.

Perhaps you should get things clear in your head and then come back with a defined opinion!

Also- the love/hate of schumacher/senna does not have anything to do with people ridiculing your view point.

FrostyJack

I would mainly go along with what Frostie said above.

For those that dont think or believe about the 94 Benetton, ask why Schumi was DQd from Silverstone that year . . could it have been his launch control kicking in on the warm up lap instead of the race start??? Hmmmmmmm (he then ignored the black flag etc etc . . ) but what caused his car to catapullt off the line like it did?

It is also alleged that he got the 2 race ban by the FIA for having traction control, as in, it was their way of punishing them without the proof, but we will probably never know though.

amacachi

Senna would've been pushing full blast no matter what.

Ghost Train

Don't see the reason launch control would would make him lead the parade lap, it happened twice on both parade laps, just looked like gamesmanship.

smooch71

PrettyBoy wrote: »

After watching the Senna segment earlier I feel a little sick over what went on in todays GP

Take off the rose tinted glasses my friend.

Senna was no more of saint than Alonso, Schumacher et al

Kersh

Perhaps you should get things clear in your head and then come back with a defined opinion!

Also- the love/hate of schumacher/senna does not have anything to do with people ridiculing your view point

I said partally, as in it contributes a part to what happened that day . . The safety car was partially responsible too - ie I dont hold any 1 thing RESPONSIBLE for the crash.

Ridicule away, makes no odds to my opinion. Like I said, I have carefully looked at everything, and this is what makes sense to me, I have aportioned blame to the various factors and it sits well with me. Some people on here probably havent even read up on everything surrounding the accident.

Dont think for 1 second that an illegal competitor was far from the front of Sennas mind. He may have been in turmoil, but he had the option to not race, which he didnt take. On that grid, beating that (unfairly advantaged) Benetton was number 1 on his mind.

If I had an illegal competitor up against me, I would pull every trick to try beat him. Every single one.

just looked like gamesmanship

He paid a hefty price for it. IMO the system malfunctioned, and launched the car twice.

Kersh

I would mainly go along with what Frostie said above

Did he not also say the illegal Benetton (driven by MS) might be a factor, taking into account everything, inc Sennas state of mind.

Thats my point . . . :rolleyes:

De Hipster

Partially blaming anyone for the death of Senna based purely on speculation of what may or may not have been going through his head at the time is far-fetched at best.

There are many factors which could be attributed to causing some or other partial knock-on effect in the events that unfolded but to list them out as mitigating factors is ludicrous.


Senna's demise was tragic, infact that weekend was undoubtedly the darkest F1 has ever seen IMO.

amacachi

Kersh wrote: »

Did he not also say the illegal Benetton (driven by MS) might be a factor, taking into account everything, inc Sennas state of mind.

Thats my point . . . :rolleyes:

Oh for ****sake everything was a factor, the bastard who owned the company who supplied the asphalt should be jailed, the inventor of carbon fibre should be dug up and jailed and the inventors of transistors who made the previous electronic aids which the cars were originally designed for and struggled without should be jailed if they're still alive.
Or maybe, just maybe, Senna pushed his luck and got caught out in this instance?