How much lip service do you play to your family's religion?

rantyface

I have to play a lot of lip service to my family's religion. I don't care because it means nothing to me and it keeps the peace.

Some atheists are shocked when I say I'll probably have a church wedding if I do get married. As far as my family are concerned, you're not married if it's not in a church. My getting married would also be lip service to their beliefs.
I also go to church weddings, christenings and funerals.

I don't see any point kicking up a fuss or being pointedly different.

Wacker

I'd be disgusted by any atheist who did not attend a close friend or relatives funeral due to religious connotations TBH. Time and place for protesting and whatnot.

bad2dabone

I go to church for my wifes family occasions just to support her family (My family have no interest in the church) but i don't get involved with the service in any way as i feel it would be hypocritical and possibly disrespectful to do it.

If someone were to ask me why i don't take communion, bless myself etc I just tell them that i'm not-religious and leave it at that. If they try to argue with me I just bite my tongue. No point in arguing about it.

Ickle Magoo

I keep hearing the "I go to church wedding, funerals and christenings" line being trotted - does anyone actually know anyone who boycotts weddings, funeral or christenings of their nearest and dearest because they are held in a church? Do any theists refuse to attend weddings, funerals or blessing that are not held in a church? Same difference, isn't it?

As for paying lip-service, the majority of my family are atheist or agnostic - my other half's are not practising and bordering on agnostic so it's just not an issue - I'm struggling to remember any church related occasions, even for older relatives. I have been to plenty of weddings and funerals in churches, never been to a christening though, not out of choice, I'm not close enough anyone that's had one to get an invite.

We very deliberately did not get married in a church and nor did we christen our kids (I'm not christened, again, not the done thing in my family). We felt it would be hypocritical and lessen the vows we were making to each other to turn it into a theatrical display, full of stuff we have no interest or belief in, just to make sure it was a universal crowd pleaser. Same with the kids - they can get christened if and when they ever want to be, signing them up to a religion because a great auntie might be offended just wasn't going to happen.

I appreciate other peoples families have stronger ties to religion and so the alternative would be a bigger issue. Thankfully, not something we have/had to deal with. :cool:

MikeC101

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I keep hearing the "I go to church wedding, funerals and christenings" line being trotted - does anyone actually know anyone who boycotts weddings, funeral or christenings of their nearest and dearest because they are held in a church? Do any theists refuse to attend weddings, funerals or blessing that are not held in a church? Same difference, isn't it?

I stand outside and protest with a large sign!

But seriously, I don't know, or know of, any atheist who wouldn't go to a friends wedding because it was in a church. I have a friends wedding coming up, I'll go, sit at the back of the church and zone out for the 45 minutes of whatever it is. I probably won't do the kneeling / standing / call and response stuff though. Which, now that I think of it, might be considered somewhat disrespectful?

I don't go to funerals, unless it's someone very close to me - been lucky with very few of those to date, or christenings. Potentially there'll be more of those later on in life, but it's not really an issue.

However, I wouldn't be offended or annoyed with an atheist not attending those things if they didn't want to.

Dr. Loon

MikeC101 wrote: »

I probably won't do the kneeling / standing / call and response stuff though. Which, now that I think of it, might be considered somewhat disrespectful?

If you don't believe in it why would you do it? I wouldn't think it's disrespectful to not participate in something that you don't believe in. Even before I was an atheist, I didn't participate in religious ceremony, kneeling, standing etc. Then again, now that I think of it, I really wasn't a believer ever.

In any case, I attend all these religious things because they're family and friends. It's not paying lip service, it's being there. But I don't do the kneeling, and droning chanting and all that. I try not get into arguments also.

Daftendirekt

None.

liamw

MikeC101 wrote: »

But seriously, I don't know, or know of, any atheist who wouldn't go to a friends wedding because it was in a church. I have a friends wedding coming up, I'll go, sit at the back of the church and zone out for the 45 minutes of whatever it is. I probably won't do the kneeling / standing / call and response stuff though. Which, now that I think of it, might be considered somewhat disrespectful?

I don't go to funerals, unless it's someone very close to me - been lucky with very few of those to date, or christenings. Potentially there'll be more of those later on in life, but it's not really an issue.

However, I wouldn't be offended or annoyed with an atheist not attending those things if they didn't want to.

I don't have a problem going to weddings or funerals. The kneeling and standing bit is obvious when you don't do it at funerals, but I just can't bring myself to do it anymore. It's just a cultish ritual to me.

Christenings - I won't go to. They make me cringe even looking at pictures of them.

Only christening I've been to is for my 1st cousin, am close with my uncle so of course I'd go. Next one is in a few weeks.
I would do the standing/sitting but I would sit in place of kneeling. That way it's not too obvious and I'm just being polite.

Mother isn't religious (I think), everyone else is. I think they've grasped I'm not part of it anymore and don't intend to be, though my grandmother still utters piously once in a while "of course you'll come back to the church" or "god will strike you down if you don't!". I just keep my mouth shut

cavedave

I quite like church ceremonies. The hymns are nice and I like the smell of the candles. You also get some top notch stained glass in some churches.

Having said that how much support is my willingness to sing hymns giving the church? I am not willing to financially support the catholic church to any great extent. I just keep quiet and head along to celebrate my friends and families day. But I have handed over my own cash to the catholic church in a long time.

Boxoffrogs

I suppose I am one of the bigger hypocrites as I detest the church in many ways. I very recently attended my nephews christening and actually did a small reading on the altar. My brother is well aware of my views but there was so much pressure applied that I relented (emotional blackmail). Funnily enough he doesn't believe either and admitted to me that the only reason he was having the little guy christened was to get him into their school of choice.

My 12 year old, who is a lot more militant than I saved me from the majority of the service by insisting that he needed to go to the loo. He hadn't been the least happy to be there and was very vocal about it.

So in answer to your post, I attend, I'm not entirely happy to do so, but with my family it would be very rare to have everyone together unless it involved a church function of some sort.

magicbastarder

Dr. Loon wrote: »

I wouldn't think it's disrespectful to not participate in something that you don't believe in.

took me a couple of seconds to parse that.

Kooli

I'd go to any family/friend event in a church and I've always done a reading when asked. I'll do the standing and the sitting (because I think it's just drawing attention to myself otherwise and the day's not about me) but I don't join in the call and response stuff or the singing.

Much as I detest the idea of a christening, I would act as godmother if asked - is that very hypocritical?
I suppose I feel it's an honour to be asked to be a child's godmother, and my godmother was very important to me. I know the role is officially one of moral guidance, but sure I can do that anyway without being religious!!

But I imagine it won't come up as anyone who is serious enough about religion to baptise their child would probably not choose an atheist to stand beside them at the font!

Do we have a secular version of a godparent? Because if I have kids I would like them to have a 'special adult' in their lives apart from their parents.

cavedave

Kooli

Much as I detest the idea of a christening, I would act as godmother if asked - is that very hypocritical?

That depends would the following exchange be a lie?

Celebrant: Do you reject Satan?
Parents and godparents: I do.
Celebrant: And all his works?
Parents and godparents: I do.
Celebrant: And all his empty promises?
Parents and godparents: I do.

I know the role is officially one of moral guidance

Is it? Canon law seems to imply it is one of Christian initiation not of spiritual guidance.

According to the Code of Canon Law, "Insofar as possible, one to be baptized is to be given a sponsor who is to assist an adult in Christian initiation, or, together with the parents, to present an infant at the baptism, and who will help the baptized to lead a Christian life in harmony with baptism, and to fulfill faithfully the obligations connected with it"

panda100

rantyface wrote: »

I have to play a lot of lip service to my family's religion. I don't care because it means nothing to me and it keeps the peace.

Some atheists are shocked when I say I'll probably have a church wedding if I do get married. As far as my family are concerned, you're not married if it's not in a church. My getting married would also be lip service to their beliefs.
I also go to church weddings, christenings and funerals.

I don't see any point kicking up a fuss or being pointedly different.

I understand where your coming from,as my family is very religious. I always go to mass with them when I'm home and would never ridicule their beliefs, even though they do it me constantly.

However, I don't understand how you could have a church wedding just to please your family?!

My wedding day will be about me and my husband feeling comfortable and making a commitment to each other. It would be hypocritical of me and mocking to my marriage vows If I did this in a church.
Your wedding day has nothing to do with your family imo. As religious as my parents are I think they will respect my choice to have a civil ceremony.

sonicthebadger*

I go to church weddings if I'm asked but I'm usually highly offended by what the priest has to say about the couple. The last one I was at he went on and on about one of my best mates being a sinner and unworthy and stuff, I was fit to box the old hypocrite by the end of it. I hadn't been in a church in years and clearly had become much less indoctrinated in that time.

My sister has asked me to be godfather to her baby so I'll have to lie a bit for that. Yeah sure, I reject Satan no worries, I'll teach the kid all about the church no worries, Christian life etc... hmmmm...

Kooli

cavedave wrote: »

That depends would the following exchange be a lie?


Is it? Canon law seems to imply it is one of Christian initiation not of spiritual guidance.

Yes, it would definitely be a lie!! (or would it? I do reject Satan, but not in the way they mean!)

I wouldn't lie to the parents themselves, but if they knew my position and still wanted me to play an important role in the kid's life as godparent, then I'd happily say all that stuff on the day.

I imagine very few parents actually see the role as Christian initiation (or even know that's what it's supposed to be!)

I guess it depends on prioritise. I'd hate to miss out on a role that is probably fairly secular in practice these days anyway, just because I didn't want to say the stuff I don't mean on that one day.

Marriage, on the other hand, I agree with panda100 - I want everything I say during that ceremony to be something I absolutely mean, so I would never agree to a church ceremony.

magicbastarder

i'm a godfather to my nephew, and was told by my brother to just nod and smile if the priest said anything to me. in the end, all i had to do was look good. my brother has no problem with me being an atheist godfather, my role has been more along the lines of letting the kid absolutely soak me at the weekend with a fire hose, rather than tell him about the glory of the lord.

panda100

magicbastarder wrote: »

my role has been more along the lines of letting the kid absolutely soak me at the weekend with a fire hose, rather than tell him about the glory of the lord.

And thats the way it should be

Dades

panda100 wrote: »

However, I don't understand how you could have a church wedding just to please your family?!

Don't forget in every situation there may be a bride or groom involved that is 'catholic' in some sense (speaking from experience ).

Two non-religious getting married in a church would, however, be a bit thick.

panda100

Dades wrote: »

Don't forget in every situation there may be a bride or groom involved that is 'catholic' in some sense (speaking from experience ).

I guess Its difficult imagining it all my last few boyfriends have been atheists. I still don't think I could get married in a church,no matter how religious my partner was. It just would be so fake of me.

However,my idea of a wedding day is very different to how others imagine theres to be. There'll most certainly be no white dress and dad walking me down the aisle!

checkyabadself

I try to be polite towards my families religous beliefs, as I would any of their or anyone else beliefs on any subject. Neither of my parents are practicing Catholics per se, but my father and I had a terrible falling out when he found out I was an atheist.
He was unaccepting of it and told me I wasnt welcome in his home anymore. I was really dissappointed by this incident and was mostly shocked at how religion could make someone operate sp far outside of their regular rational thinking.

Even so, I wouldn`t view my attendance of a wedding to be in any way religious. To me a wedding is a partnership of a loving couple towards each other. A funeral attendance is to pay my respects to the bereaved family members and friends.

I`ll happily sit at the back of a church if there is adequate seating or stand to facilitate those who wish to be able to kneel.

I wouldn`t say a reading or carry a coffin at a religous wedding/funeral as I believe it`s best left to those who belong to the religion to participate in the ceremony.

I wouldn`t attend a christening as to "celebrate" the christening of a child would be a lie.
I wouldn`t "stand" as a Godfather either as (A)I left the Catholic church and am not a member and(B) my only sibling/really close friends already know I`d be there for their children should the worst happen, without any need for an oath to a deity.

Kooli

checkyabadself wrote: »

I wouldn`t say a reading or carry a coffin at a religous wedding/funeral as I believe it`s best left to those who belong to the religion to participate in the ceremony.

I wouldn`t attend a christening as to "celebrate" the christening of a child would be a lie.
I wouldn`t "stand" as a Godfather either as (A)I left the Catholic church and am not a member and(B) my only sibling/really close friends already know I`d be there for their children should the worst happen, without any need for an oath to a deity.

Would you explain why you declined if you were asked to do any of those things? (be godparent, do a reading at a wedding, carry coffin at a funeral)

I guess I feel that any of those things are an honour to be asked to do, so I'd be happy to do them for the people involved if that's what they wanted.

There was talk of asking me to be godparent to my baby cousin. Grandmother anyway told me they realise they couldn't - she didn't say why as we got sidetracked, but I can only imagine it's that we're 1st cousins?
Anyway if they had asked I would have had to say it was an honour but I couldn't in good conscience accept. After sitting through the ceremony I was doubly sure of this.

panda100

checkyabadself wrote: »

He was unaccepting of it and told me I wasnt welcome in his home anymore. I was really dissappointed by this incident and was mostly shocked at how religion could make someone operate sp far outside of their regular rational thinking.

Exact same happened to me, Its very upsetting,especially when you have been so respectful to their beliefs for so long.
My whole family are nuts when it comes to religion. My brother,whose a GP. actually defended the pogroms in Limerick the other day when I said it was a Redemptorist priest who called for the attacks against the Jewish people.
Religion really does make people completely irrational.

liamw

Kooli wrote: »

Would you explain why you declined if you were asked to do any of those things? (be godparent, do a reading at a wedding, carry coffin at a funeral)

I guess I feel that any of those things are an honour to be asked to do, so I'd be happy to do them for the people involved if that's what they wanted.

From my perspective, it would be hypocritical of me to be a godparent. It's totally meaningless to me, even if the modern connotations are purely secular. I also do not want to partake in anything that promotes (or goes along with) a bronze age cult. I also feel it to be somewhat my 'duty' to promote a secular, religion-free society so I would not want to contradict that.

I would definitely not do a reading. I do not wish to partake in those rituals. If I really had to do a reading at a funeral, I would give my own fond memories of the deceased, rather than read some meaningless, impersonal drone material from an old book.

Kneeling or standing.. no. Carrying the coffin, I would probably just go along with this if it was a direct family member. I'm not chanting anything, or kneeling before my creator so it doesn't bother me that much.

PeterIanStaker

I helped carry my grandfather's coffin. I did it for him and not for anyone imaginary or any organisation.

checkyabadself

Kooli wrote: »

Would you explain why you declined if you were asked to do any of those things? (be godparent, do a reading at a wedding, carry coffin at a funeral)

I guess I feel that any of those things are an honour to be asked to do, so I'd be happy to do them for the people involved if that's what they wanted.

1) I wouldnt be a godparent as I dont believe in god. I dont agree with the teachings and what it stands for. I would be a liar to say that I would uphold the instructions and I value my word more than feigning respect to satisfy others. I am an atheist and hope that anyone in the position to consider asking me to be a godparent, would be close enough to me to respect that fact, also that it goes without saying that I`d look after their children if they were to die. They`d also know that I`d look out for their children regardless.

2) I wouldn`t read from the King James bible and say it was the word of God to people I respected. Surely it`s considered blasphemy by any religous person on top of being hypocritical by myself.

3) I wouldnt carry a coffin as I dont have any respect for religous tradtions or ceremonies. I can have respect for the people there without having to participate in their traditions.( also I`m 6`3" and that always rules me out in our family)

I`m guessing (from re reading my post) that I might be coming across as an a55h0l3, but it is not my intention I can assure you. My general point is that I can respect that someone holds a belief without having to respect that belief itself.
I also loathe ceremonies in general, I find them immensely impersonal.

Ickle Magoo

Kooli wrote: »

I guess I feel that any of those things are an honour to be asked to do, so I'd be happy to do them for the people involved if that's what they wanted.

Same.

Barring the godparent bit which would involve some kind of religious promise I couldn't keep, I would take it as an honour to be asked to be part of someone's funereal or marital ceremony. Presumably if you are close enough to be asked to be a pall bearer or best man or what-ever they are well aware of your beliefs and the invite is because they want you to be a part of the proceedings rather than for any religious reason. I wouldn't boycott a christian ceremony any more than I'd refuse to take part in a bar mitzvah because I'm not jewish.

liamw

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Same.

Barring the godparent bit which would involve some kind of religious promise I couldn't keep, I would take it as an honour to be asked to be part of someone's funereal or marital ceremony. Presumably if you are close enough to be asked to be a pall bearer or best man or what-ever they are well aware of your beliefs and the invite is because they want you to be a part of the proceedings rather than for any religious reason. I wouldn't boycott a christian ceremony any more than I'd refuse to take part in a bar mitzvah because I'm not jewish.

What about christenings in general? I couldn't go along to one, let alone partake in it for reasons of principle. Do you not cringe at the thought?

Kooli

liamw wrote: »

What about christenings in general? I couldn't go along to one, let alone partake in it for reasons of principle. Do you not cringe at the thought?

I was at one yesterday, and yes they are totally ridiculous and cringey. But for the most part my friends and family are more important to me than my atheism, so if they want me to be part of what is clearly a special and exciting day for them, I'm not going to refuse them.

Ickle Magoo

liamw wrote: »

What about christenings in general? I couldn't go along to one, let alone partake in it for reasons of principle. Do you not cringe at the thought?

I've managed to avoid the issue thus far, I think anyone who knows me knows that I wouldn't enjoy it so I don't really expect any invites any time soon. If someone I really care about was christening their child and wanted me there then I would go for them, the child gets christened anyway - I don't think refusing to attend would serve any purpose bar damaging my friendship, they are asking for my company not my approval. :cool:

magicbastarder

if i was religious and a friend refused to attend my child's christening, i would re-evaluate my friendship with them.

Shenshen

I've no problems attending weddings and funerals, if the people are close friends.

Christenings is where I would draw the line, though. I don't think it's right to make the decision about which religion a person should belong to without ever stopping to consider what that person might eventually think about it.
So unless we're talking adults getting baptised, I don't think I would attend.

But then I happen to be in the uniquely happy situation of not living in the same country as my family, so I don't get asked very often anyway

checkyabadself

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I've managed to avoid the issue thus far, I think anyone who knows me knows that I wouldn't enjoy it so I don't really expect any invites any time soon. If someone I really care about was christening their child and wanted me there then I would go for them, the child gets christened anyway - I don't think refusing to attend would serve any purpose bar damaging my friendship, they are asking for my company not my approval. :cool:

I`m in the same boat (highlighted part). I like the point you make about not attending damaging your friendship. My thoughts are that I dont really have any practicing religous friends and I certainly dont have any friends that would thinjk less of me for not complying with their religous practices or not attending their religous ceremonies.

goingpostal

sonicthebadger* wrote: »

..... The last one I was at he went on and on about one of my best mates being a sinner and unworthy and stuff, I was fit to box the old hypocrite by the end of it. ......

Quote of the thread so far The only time I usually set foot in a church is for my Dads anniversary mass (he was a de facto atheist too) because my mother is quite devout and likes us all to be there. I refused to go one year when I was younger, and it was more hassle than it was worth refusing to participate. Like a lot of people said, it usually just causes strife with those who are nearest and dearest. It is easier just to play along, it is only 45 minutes usually and I can tune out, and some times even get a kick out of how ridiculous all the religious mumbo jumbo is. I have avoided the whole christening thing so far, that is definitely the creepiest one for me, inducting a tiny baby into a disgusting, organised-crime style cult, I just couldn't ignore that. I hate it that people who don't really believe still go along with this because if they don't their kids won't be able to get into a school. That is one example of church-state collaboration that has to be dismantled immediately. Someone's religious beliefs or lack-thereof should have no bearing whatsoever on their chances of getting a good education. And I never hold back when discussing any religious scandal related topic, even with devout members of my family.

magicbastarder

goingpostal wrote: »

I hate it that people who don't really believe still go along with this because if they don't their kids won't be able to get into a school.

granted, but you can hardly blame the parents for playing along if they want what's best for their kid?
between choosing to make a stand about baptism and the scope of educational choices they'll have with that child, most parents would choose pragmatism over principle, and i can't fault them on it.

Malari

My immediate family isn't religious, but I've been to a christening of an extended family member. I just went and took lots of photos, so I probably looked a bit separate, like a photographer at a wedding!

I've never been to more than a removal really, but that's definitely to show my support to the family and I leave before they do all the mumbly prayers. I declined going to the full funeral of the father of a friend of my boyfriend's.

I've been to weddings too, just don't do all the jumping up and kneeling down nonsense.

I would be astonished if someone close to me asked me to actively participate in a ceremony.

rantyface

panda100 wrote: »

However, I don't understand how you could have a church wedding just to please your family?!

They won't consider me wed unless it's in a church. For most people, a wedding is a vow to God to stay together "for better for worse til death us do part" and "What God has bound, man cannot separate" or whatever that line is.

For me, it's just a public confirmation that we're serious about each other. It doesn't mean a huge amount to me, I don't need that ceremony or piece of paper, it won't change how I feel.

I suppose it's not really as meaningful when you don't believe in God because you can just get a divorce if it doesn't work out! Getting married in any case would be lip service to their faith, with a tax bonus

mikhail

My parents still believe I'm a non-practising Catholic. I'm in my late twenties. I and my (also atheist) brother had a hard enough time with them when we refused to attend mass on the grounds that the church, having facilitated and covered up child abuse, is utterly devoid of moral authority. (Their arguments were interesting, from appeals that the church needs young people to crying about us having "lost our faith" to threatening language just short of kicking us out of the house.) I have no reason at this time to undergo the hassle involved in fully 'coming out' to them as an atheist.

I've attended weddings and funerals since. I've carried a coffin of a close relative. (As someone else said, I did this as a mark of respect for the relative, not for any other person or organisation.) As for any marriage of my own, I'll cross that bridge when I come to it - many women have strong ideas about their marriage, but I would not be at all happy about having to lie outright throughout a ceremony where I swear my commitment to someone.

liamw

magicbastarder wrote: »

if i was religious and a friend refused to attend my child's christening, i would re-evaluate my friendship with them.

If I was non-religious and a friend started to 're-evaluate' our friendship, becuase I didn't want to partake in or attend one of his belief system's indoctrination rituals, I would have to re-evaluate our friendship.

magicbastarder

liamw wrote: »

I didn't want to partake in or attend one of his belief system's indoctrination rituals

i suppose it's an easy one, i can't see the friendship developing in the first place.

eblistic

magicbastarder wrote: »

if i was religious and a friend refused to attend my child's christening, i would re-evaluate my friendship with them.

Your hypothetical, religious, alter-ego wouldn't appreciate a bit of honesty from a friend?

I know this is easier said than done, though.

I find the whole idea of Christening innocent infants objectionable on a very basic level. But how can you say this to someone in the run-up to their big day?

Kooli

eblistic wrote: »

Your hypothetical, religious, alter-ego wouldn't appreciate a bit of honesty from a friend?

I know this is easier said than done, though.

I find the whole idea of Christening innocent infants objectionable on a very basic level. But how can you say this to someone in the run-up to their big day?

I suppose it depends on how important it is to you. Is it more important to stand up for your principles, or to be there for friends and family's big events?

For me, on this one, my friends and family come before my atheism. If they're having a big day out to welcome their baby (which let's be honest is what a christening is used for these days) I'm not gonna sulk at home when it's really important for them to have me there.

And as for the 'bit of honesty from a friend', I imagine any close friends or family would already already be aware of my feelings on christenings. But like any big event (wedding, funeral, christening) it's not my day, and it's not about me. So I don't choose those days to 'make a point'.