Article: Government to outline €39.4bn capital plan

Pete_Cavan

I am sick to death of all this talk of the east getting everything at the expense of the west. I would like to point out to people from the west that there are other regions in this country who get less than you. In the Cavan, Roscommon, Longford, Leitrim region there has been very little capital investment over the past decade. A bit of the M6 passes through Roscommon, but this is because the shortest route between Athlone and Ballinasloe is through Roscommon, and thats more or less it. After that we have the worst roads network and poorest public transport in the country (Im not saying that we should get loads of motorways, just read on before jumping to conclusions). The west has got the M6, M18, Shannon Tunnel and WRC with M17, M20, Galway orbital and WRC extension in the pipeline. And why do they get more than us? Because we are a sparsely populated rural area. Basically we dont have the critical mass to justify such projects and so the Galway - Limerick region gets more investment than us. For the exact same reason Dublin should get more investment than the west. People have to realise that, with the motorway network nearing completion, there is no projects, apart from Metro North and dart underground, that can justify spending billions of euro on. Navan rail line and WRC are luxuries, MN and dart underground are necessities and will benefit the extire country.

Sponge Bob

The fact is that most of the Motorways are built and the only places where new motorway is required is Galway-Cork, M11 gap, Mullingar - Longford. Short near urban bits near Cork and Sligo Limerick Galway Bypass.

These are largely left in bar Mullingar - Longford and north of Sligo.

As for the rest of the country there should be a plan to mix regular 2+2 overtaking sections with longer S2 sections but everyone thinks they are getting a motorway or 2+2 and as this is crazy .......there is no plan.

Until there is a realistic plan there should be no expenditure on these N roads . More minor roads deserving only of S2 are a clearer case IMO.

liammur

People don't seem to realise that the country is bust.

DWCommuter

The Irish Times strikes again.

Jokers!:D

Empire o de Sun

"Forced to use their cars" well let's provide a bus service along all the regional roads in the country with one off housing. And see how long before the country goes bust.

tharlear

The investment in motorways has been biased towards the south an east of the counrty.
There is the m6 and m1 north of the Dublin Gaway line.

There boarder region and northwest still rely on 1980/90 roads at best.

Population density are reflect in this basis. The roads go where the population centers are, the jobs to where the access is and people go where the jobs are (overseas nowdays). This creates a loop which repeats itself.

No access, no jobs

Access, attracts jobs

Access is not just roads, communication, electricty, water.

Wild Bill

tharlear wrote: »

Population density are reflect in this basis. The roads go where the population centers are, the jobs to where the access is and people go where the jobs are (overseas nowdays). This creates a loop which repeats itself.

Soooooo.....the solution is to build the motorways, electricity lines and so forth to where there is little or no population? :cool:

(and, given limited resources, that means not building them where the people actually need them. Brilliant! Nobel Prize coming up.....)

runway16

tharlear wrote: »

The investment in motorways has been biased towards the south an east of the counrty.
There is the m6 and m1 north of the Dublin Gaway line.

There boarder region and northwest still rely on 1980/90 roads at best.

Population density are reflect in this basis. The roads go where the population centers are, the jobs to where the access is and people go where the jobs are (overseas nowdays). This creates a loop which repeats itself.

No access, no jobs

Access, attracts jobs

Access is not just roads, communication, electricty, water.

There's also the M/N4 which is improved, the M3 which extends to Cavan, besides the M1 and M6. The N2 isnt a bad route either around the borders. Please dont try and pretend the area got nothing.

I understand your point about the loop, but its not as if there were no plans to put decent roads in place for the region. The problem we now face is funding to complete the task... A quick look at the NRA website shows the scale of plans to redevelop border / NW routes. Lets hope these do one day come to fruition.

tharlear

[the solution is to build the motorways, electricity lines and so forth to where there is little or no population

I would never would suggest such a thing!:) It suggests a wast of resources.

I'm just pointing out the cause and effect of access to infastructure.

Like the film says "Build it and they will come"

If you have infastructure then you get development, if you don't the development goes where the access is, population, jobs go where there is access, low taxes etc.

I'm merely pointing out that contrary to the perception of the pale v the rest of the country that investmant follows investment.

Goverment (which ireland lacks) needs to decide where investment will take place. While lots of silly schemes have had money throw at them to keep "ray=healy" types happy, the motorways system has made sense and has seen investment from dublin out to the major population centers. This will result with development along the motorways from dublin outwards. Only a green belt policy( which no m50 region TD CC will back) will stop this.

I would point out that concentrating development in Dublin requires investment in roads, rail, communication, electricty in an already semi urbanzed area with high land costs. Building infacstructure around cork, limerick, waterford, galway, sligo would be cheaper as it allows for planning/development on open space. Dublin was semi-urbanised without the necessary infastructure being put in place in the 1960 to 1990.
(by semi urbanised I mean low population density radiating along access roads) To bring dublin up to par with outer modern cities will require a massive investment in rail and communications and water.

Example N4, N7 out of dublin cannot be coverted to m7 without high cost CPO to buy out all the access along these routes

tharlear

I understand your point about the loop, but its not as if there were no plans to put decent roads in place for the region. The problem we now face is funding to complete the task... A quick look at the NRA website shows the scale of plans to redevelop border / NW routes. Lets hope these do one day come to fruition

I would hope these one day come to be, however I suspect that desperately need investment in Dublin "hueston connnely" and "metro north" will get priority. A couple of bones will be thrown to the "rae healy's down the country, but in ten years we will have limited access to the regions and a capatial that is still clogged.

My alternative is that by investing in the regional centers at lower cost (cork, waterford, limerick, galway, sligo) one can ease the further congestion in dublin, which will allow time for the expensive investment required in Dublin

BluntGuy

tharlear wrote: »

My alternative is that by investing in the regional centers at lower cost (cork, waterford, limerick, galway, sligo) one can ease the further congestion in dublin, which will allow time for the expensive investment required in Dublin

Investing in other cities != Less congestion in Dublin

I'm sorry, but it's true. I'm not saying we shouldn't look at focussing regional investment in the cities, but that isn't going to change the fact that Dublin is our prime city, and its critical mass is, well, critical in Ireland's overall economy. It still requires big investment.

Some opinion on the capital budget:

http://www.mayonews.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=10546:wanted-250-metres-dart-in-the-west&catid=81:defacto&Itemid=100038

I'll let this one speak for itself.

I bet the figures wouldn't be so generous if you compared the number of projected passengers and divided by the cost.

Wild Bill

It stifles the best and most sensible project that has been laid before the Government in years, namely the Western Rail Corridor. It is the sole project that ticks all the boxes

As the WRC is perhaps the shiniest dazzling white elephant proposed since the foundation of the State I'll assume the magic mushroom season comes a bit earlier in Mayo!

Sponge Bob

Ah sure the ink is not even dry and Dempsey is already weaseling and welshing on this capital spending fiction


http://www.independent.ie/national-news/dempseys-secret-meeting-with-the-important-people-2297983.html

It is believed Mr Parlon referred to analysis that showed the Government was well behind on its own capital spending commitments set out at the end of June.

Mr Dempsey is said to have revealed that much of the €5bn promised for next year will not be used to start any new major projects, but will be used to pay off projects already under way.

Mr Parlon was highly critical of that, saying following the completion of major projects like the Limerick Tunnel, the Aviva Stadium and the Convention Centre, there is nothing left but "Mickey Mouse" developments.

"There is a real famine for decent work out there," he said.

According to sources, the normally combative Dempsey eventually agreed with much of what Mr Parlon was saying.

Mr Dempsey's spokeswoman said the meeting was "convivial but productive".

runway16

tharlear wrote: »

I would hope these one day come to be, however I suspect that desperately need investment in Dublin "hueston connnely" and "metro north" will get priority. A couple of bones will be thrown to the "rae healy's down the country, but in ten years we will have limited access to the regions and a capatial that is still clogged.

My alternative is that by investing in the regional centers at lower cost (cork, waterford, limerick, galway, sligo) one can ease the further congestion in dublin, which will allow time for the expensive investment required in Dublin

But money has been invested in those places! Why do people suggest otherwise? The road network around Limerick and Cork has been transformed, there has been investments in Rail in these cities.. their transport systems are far less congested than Dublin's, but of course we are expected to go without the normal requirements of a large capital city just so people in Mayo can feel less hard done by!

Cork, Limerick, Galway are all attractive places to do business now. They have good road links to each other (and improving) great motorway access to the major population centre of the country (the Dublin area), Decent airports with flights to the main centres... I could go on!

They are Dublin in minature and have exactly what Dublin has! Now, Dublin needs some decent urban transit, because its, what? 10 times the size of the regional cities, but we are being denied it because Mayo and where ever else doesnt want to see "those bastards in the pale" get something that they dont have!

That's all most of the infrastructure debates in this country are REALLY based on: Parochialism - not common sense.

If Dublin doesnt work, this country doesnt work. People need to realise that. The City generates over half this country's wealth, and more than spreads its around.

Aidan1

The roads go where the population centers are, the jobs to where the access is and people go where the jobs are (overseas nowdays).

Whether population centers attract jobs, or vice versa (both, is a more rational answer - critical masses of population create employment and economic growth, all else being equal) is almost irrelevant in this case - the critical issue is that infrastructure is an enabler of further economic growth, but only where critical masses of population and economic activity exist. These strange entities are known as 'cities'. We have 5 in the State. However some of them (3 to be precise) are too small and too spread out to benefit from heavy duty infrastructural improvements (apart from the Galway bypass, but that should also be accompanied by strict controls on zoning). Better bus services perhaps, but anything else will need years of proper planning and zoning before they have that mass. Cork is on the cusp of being large enough to justify more capital investment, and some proposals make good sense in terms of 'leading' development, and in terms of the creation of a growth pole of sufficient size to act as a counter to Dublin (in time).

Dublin, on the other hand, is where the majority of the economic activity in this State takes place. It, and by extension the State, badly needs investment in public transport and other infrastructure in order to maintain it's competitiveness. Failing to do so would be a retrograde step of monumental proportions - and if that decision was taken on the grounds that development needed to be 'spread around', a step of monumental idiocy.

Chris_5339762

runway16 wrote: »

Cork, Limerick, Galway are all attractive places to do business now. They have good road links to each other (and improving) great motorway access to the major population centre of the country (the Dublin area), Decent airports with flights to the main centres... I could go on!

I'd argue that Galway is a very unattractive place to do business, unless you live in Doughiska. Anywhere else is a nightmare to get at without the bypass.

runway16

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

I'd argue that Galway is a very unattractive place to do business, unless you live in Doughiska. Anywhere else is a nightmare to get at without the bypass.

Forgive me, I have not been to Galway in a while, so perhaps I overestimated the improvements!

In any case, I think we all agree that this notion of Dublin getting everything in terms of infrastructure is totally false. Ive seen huge improvements in Limerick and Cork, Waterford, and even Galway! ;-)

There is only so much you can do to try to re-balance the Dublin / Rest of Ireland divide. I believe this government, for all its faults, has had a fair crack at the whip, and has delivered big improvements in the regional cities too. Of course, we need more (i.e public transport), an area which is lacking in the whole country.

I'm sorry, im going to stick my neck out - Dublin needs it first.

donvito99

It pisses me off when people like Michael O Higgins TD or whatever the mad fookers name is come out and say that 'Metro North will cost €300 million per km, the WRC will only cost €3 million'. The mind boggles...

Cool Mo D

The regional cities lag Dublin in a very important way: their bus services are badly lacking (and it's not as if Dublin is brilliant), and this should change. However, the biggest reason for this is the total lack of will on the part of local councillors to implement bus priority measures which would remove on street parking, or slightly delay motorists. Look at Limerick - no bus lane on most of the Ennis road - and the bit that exists doesn't come into operation till 10am!

westtip

donvito99 wrote: »

It pisses me off when people like Michael O Higgins TD or whatever the mad fookers name is come out and say that 'Metro North will cost €300 million per km, the WRC will only cost €3 million'. The mind boggles...

The comparisons are so stupid and dim witted it makes many in the west cringe. Dublin needs to funtion well as an economic unit so the rest of hte country can also do so. The parish pump brigade just don't understand the concept of modern socio-economics and never will.

westtip

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I. Navan rail line and WRC are luxuries,.

Pete I agree with a lot of what you say - I don't think the Navan link is a luxury but it won't happen as the M3 has been allowed to carve through its alignment - read much of the stuff written by DWcommuter on this issue - the WRC is not a luxury it is an embarrassment that a small group in the west has been allowed to hi-jack public opinion and claim to speak for the silent majority - most people out west couldn't give a tuppenny foook about this project

---

and it won't go further than Athenry anyway tis a dead duck.

Godge

Aidan1 wrote: »

Whether population centers attract jobs, or vice versa (both, is a more rational answer - critical masses of population create employment and economic growth, all else being equal) is almost irrelevant in this case - the critical issue is that infrastructure is an enabler of further economic growth, but only where critical masses of population and economic activity exist. These strange entities are known as 'cities'. We have 5 in the State. However some of them (3 to be precise) are too small and too spread out to benefit from heavy duty infrastructural improvements (apart from the Galway bypass, but that should also be accompanied by strict controls on zoning). Better bus services perhaps, but anything else will need years of proper planning and zoning before they have that mass. Cork is on the cusp of being large enough to justify more capital investment, and some proposals make good sense in terms of 'leading' development, and in terms of the creation of a growth pole of sufficient size to act as a counter to Dublin (in time).

Dublin, on the other hand, is where the majority of the economic activity in this State takes place. It, and by extension the State, badly needs investment in public transport and other infrastructure in order to maintain it's competitiveness. Failing to do so would be a retrograde step of monumental proportions - and if that decision was taken on the grounds that development needed to be 'spread around', a step of monumental idiocy.

I agree completely with you. What makes this country even more stupid is that we are building roads to nowhere, railways to nowhere (WRC), rural broadband etc. when we really need investment in Dublin (and to a lesser extent Cork).

We also need to decide whether Waterford, Galway, Limerick or the Midlands Gateway are the third city and prioritise investment accordingly.

Zebra3

donvito99 wrote: »

It pisses me off when people like Michael O Higgins TD or whatever the mad fookers name is come out and say that 'Metro North will cost €300 million per km, the WRC will only cost €3 million'. The mind boggles...

It pisses me off, but doesn't surprise me.

Wild Bill

Godge wrote: »

What makes this country even more stupid is that we are building roads to nowhere, railways to nowhere (WRC), rural broadband etc. when we really need investment in Dublin (and to a lesser extent Cork).

No sure where these "roads to nowhere" are and I can't see any objections to rural broadband. On the other hand, railways connecting empty space to empty space are crazy. Trendy pseudo "environmentalism" gone berserk. :mad:

WRC ticks that box and unless Navan doubles in size it is hard to see why a spur off the Belfast line wouldn't do for now.

westtip

Godge wrote: »

I, rural broadband etc. .

Now this is actually very important for the west. Yes I agree with you about mad schemes like WRC but rural broadband really does open up business opportunities in remote areas and is very important.

BluntGuy

westtip wrote: »

Now this is actually very important for the west. Yes I agree with you about mad schemes like WRC but rural broadband really does open up business opportunities in remote areas and is very important.

We really need to get broadband in our cities and towns up to scratch first though. That said, if we'd had a half-competent government for the last, we could've had far better speeds and far more coverage even in rural areas. Rural areas were never gonna have mega-fast broadband any time soon, but the current situation in many rural towns is pretty abysmal. For a country of our size, our broadband speed and penetration rate is pathetic.

dubhthach

BluntGuy wrote: »

We really need to get broadband in our cities and towns up to scratch first though. That said, if we'd had a half-competent government for the last, we could've had far better speeds and far more coverage even in rural areas. Rural areas were never gonna have mega-fast broadband any time soon, but the current situation in many rural towns is pretty abysmal. For a country of our size, our broadband speed and penetration rate is pathetic.

It's been estimated that give every premise in Ireland FTTH would cost between 2 and 3 billion euro. The govermenet however isn't interested in spending any money on telecoms, they think it's something the private sector should build-out.

When you consider all the money been wasted on Anglo a FTTH project would actually do some good for all this talk they do of a "Knowledge economy" pfff :rolleyes:

Sponge Bob

Rural areas can be sorted to universal 2mbits at decent quality. When the ( only univesal mobile network ) Voda 900mhz licence runs out next year and goes into the Digital Dividend licencing pot along with other frequencies then ensure that all operators share masts and pool spectrum.

Currently we have 4 mobile networks of which one is good , one is pretty good but incomplete, and the other two are cack. We only need one good one in rural areas. Competition is not by coverage where a new masts only covers 100s of households, it is by packaging if at all. Also bring in two new operators to rattle the cartel. But above all share the masts in rural areas.

Digital Dividend spectrum will be used to deploy 4g ( known as LTE ) which is vastly better than 3g and at vastly better frequencies than 3g ....which is too high a frequency.

However the towns and cities should get universal fibre as a matter of extreme urgency.

Our cack telecoms and electricity networks are losing us jobs.

BluntGuy

Do we actually have some sort of thought-out plan to benefit from the digital switchover?

Comreg has this as its latest:

http://www.comreg.ie/_fileupload/publications/ComReg1059.pdf

I think that's a follow up to another much-longer report they published last year but I can't be bothered to find it.

Regardless, that stuff is all well and good and as far as I know RTE have been given the money to get the physical work done, so what we need to see is best possible use made of the opportunity. Needless to say, I don't really trust those with the responsibility, Eamon Ryan has seldom mentioned it and considering what a mess has been made of our communications to date I have my doubts.

Comreg have around the right idea. We're a far cry from this though:

http://www.siliconrepublic.com/comms/item/11536-digital-dividend-is-a-once

If Ireland leads by example in the debate for digital dividend and wireless spectrum in Europe, fast decision-making could enable the country to transform swiftly into the Celtic Tiger of wireless Europe.

Sponge Bob

BluntGuy wrote: »

Do we actually have some sort of thought-out plan to benefit from the digital switchover?

The Dept of Finance does and they will drive the entire issue no matter what comes out of Comreg or out of the 'smart green' pixiedust machine and his dysfunctional department.

We have no thought out plan to provide universal good quality services to all stakeholders and certainly not universal very good quality services. When it comes to dealing with service providers in Ireland the end user is hung out to dry.