Should the Air Corps be scrapped?

Steyr

Anybody see Saturday's Irish Independent Colum about the IAC in "Weekend Review"??


And i quote:

"Based at Casement Aerodrome in Co Dublin, the Air Corps employs 850 people, including 120 Pilots, It has 29 Aircraft."


120 Pilots?? Really? Or did they mean Crew and Pilots and Instructors/Cadets??

Klunk001

Interesting figures there. I'm open to correction here but I believe 65 helo pilots too, for ehh how many helo's. Hhmmmm, 850 people for 29 aircraft:eek:, how many of those assets are available 24/7.

Avgas

Great reply Klunk...v. interesting and informative...any views on Eurocopter 725 merits/demerits versus the S92 for the Irish situation........is there life and value left in the auld (super)Puma frame yet? Would the 725 not be a bit more proven and a bit better as regards range/endurance?

There seems to be consensus here over a few posts that the AW139 purchase was...yet again.....a wrong purchase........:(

xflyer

I imagine the the 120 'pilots' referred to actually means officers. Not all of whom would be pilots. As for the pilots many would now be flying a desk, an occupational hazard in any military. So active pilots would be fewer in number.

Gilligan.Mark

xflyer wrote: »

I imagine the the 120 'pilots' referred to actually means officers. Not all of whom would be pilots. As for the pilots many would now be flying a desk, an occupational hazard in any military. So active pilots would be fewer in number.

First time posting here, but as for number of officers in the AC, it was 149 as over 31st May 2010. so I doubt there was a mass exodus from then to now to drop to 120.

The way I'd see it is there's 120 officers retaining pilot status, maybe 29 doing desk related work, therefore 149. As for what you said about active pilots, I'd agree with you in that they would be fewer in number. Not all 120 would be flying regularly.

(Once you're a qualified pilot, you only need to log 12hrs a year/2years to retain your licence, if i'm not mistaken)



Breakdown of officers in the DF
http://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2010-07-07.2211.0&s=strength+male+officers#g2213.0.r

Klunk001

Apolagies for the thread drift. As I understand it the EC225 (civilian cousin of the 725) was tendered by a different company. The figures were close, where the EC 225 gained in one area the S-92 gained somewhere else.

I believe part of the requirement on the contract was that two paramedics could work on two seperate casualties at the same time in relative comfort. The height inside the S-92 is six foot, thats the difference between been able to do this work standing or kneeling.

The S-92 fitted with a long range tank or tanks will give it a serious range, there are figures floating around, its impressive. I hope the crews have strong bladders:D. There is a S-92 out there which came into service a few years back with 9000 hrs already on the frame. Personally I have found american made helos take more abuse and are not as soft as the european counterpart (Germany been the exception). After sale service for parts and the likes is second to none from across the pond looking west.

Klunk001

Internal photo's of S-92 and EC 225.

xflyer

(Once you're a qualified pilot, you only need to log 12hrs a year/2years to retain your licence, if i'm not mistaken)

Interesting, thanks for your input. Just to put it in perspective this weekend alone, I put in 7 hours. On a good weekend, can do 12. hours. On a crazy weekend 16. In a quiet week 30.

There is no way you can remain current by doing 12 hours a year.

I wouldn't expect those numbers week after week. It would kill me anyhow. But that put's some perspective on the pressures or lack therof on the Air Corps.

RedneckHamster

Personally, I would recommend the purchase of 4-6 HH-60H Rescue Hawk airframes. With these, you're looking at an extremely flexible platform that can be used for search-and-rescue, COIN, and troop transport. They can carry a squad of troops, have a built-in rescue hoist, and are able to carry a variety of door-mounted weapons as well as an M299 launcher with 4 AGM-114 missiles. Their cost is similar to that of an AW139, and they're navalized so maritime operations shouldn't cause much undue wear and tear. These are full mil-spec birds, so they would be operated by the IAC or NS. If the NS ever invested in another light helicopter carrier, the HH-60H also has a RAST system allowing for it to securely fasten itself to the deck if the ship is properly equipped. If the Rescue Hawk is too expensive, I would stick with the AW139s, since an HH-60J (USCG variant) doesn't have the massive leap in flexibility that the Rescue Hawk gives you.

As for air defense, procure a handful of military radars and SLAMRAAM systems to defend urban areas. They're far less expensive to operate than interceptor aircraft and use a proven missile (AIM-120).

Stovepipe

Hi there
Some of the Don's alleged pilots are permanent desk jockeys, who maintain the legal minimum hours to keep the wings and flying pay. Also, aircraft like the Casas and Garda aircraft and MATS aircraft use a lot of pilots and aircrew per day/shift/flight. Being Military, pilots must also rotate into ground jobs after a tour on an aircraft type, so they only fly to maintain currency during their ground tour. All Militaries operate like this. Apart from that, you have people out sick, people on detachment inside and outside of Ireland, people on leave,etc,etc, so the actual number who are hands-on as pilots is considerably less than the actual total. The same applies to the technical personnel, a significant amount of whom are not always directly engaged in or on an aircraft. Apart from that, probably a quarter of all Air Corps personnel exist to run the system, such as storemen, drivers, cooks, clerks, soldiers,etc,etc. and just like Militaries everywhere, it is overmanned by comparison to civilian equivalent.
regards
Stovepipe

Leonidas BL

[QUOTE=As for air defense, procure a handful of military radars and SLAMRAAM systems to defend urban areas. They're far less expensive to operate than interceptor aircraft and use a proven missile (AIM-120).[/QUOTE]

Why not mount ATA missiles on the PC-9's like Brazil do with great effect with there Super Tucanos???

Delancey

Air Corps seems to be little more than a very expensive ( to the taxpayer ) Flying Club.

No Air Defence assets , no SAR functions , ministerial Transport that could be outsourced to a civilian operator , helicopters unsuitable for overseas deployment , the list of deficiencies is endless and its value / service to the nation has to be questioned.

I would love to see it done away with and the savings used to improve the Naval Service which for an island is very poorly equipped ( but then again neglect of National Defence seems to be have been Government policy since the foundation of the state ).

goldie fish

Delancey wrote: »

Air Corps seems to be little more than a very expensive ( to the taxpayer ) Flying Club.

No Air Defence assets , no SAR functions , ministerial Transport that could be outsourced to a civilian operator , helicopters unsuitable for overseas deployment , the list of deficiencies is endless and its value / service to the nation has to be questioned.

I would love to see it done away with and the savings used to improve the Naval Service which for an island is very poorly equipped ( but then again neglect of National Defence seems to be have been Government policy since the foundation of the state ).

Yeah, but no.

• Air Defence assets? What threat is there?
• SAR function? Not a military task, should not be, for a small force. We saw it in the past when the air corps dedicated all its efforts into providing 24 hr SAR, and the military skills sufferred.
• Overseas deployment? I don't see how they are unsuitable, apart from the number of them. Again the type was chosen to provide training to troops who would be operating overseas from other nations aircraft. In addition it needs to be capable of doing air ambulance, and the types are quite effective at this.

That said, recent management of the AC has been uninterested in promoting a proper military role, and was happy enough to take whatever crumbs fell from the government table, leaving us with the best equipped VIP transport fleet we can't afford..

I would be in favour of increasing the maritime patrol ability. We are an island nation, and the real threat to us is from smuggling of drugs/arms/explosives. The MPA can provide eyes on an incident off our coast faster than surface assets, but has the ability to monitor all activities from a safe distance until a surface asset gets on scene.
A possible scenario would be similar to the indian terror attacks of a few years back, where Al Quaida operatives attacked from the sea.
This capability is equally useful should the land border come under threat.
The helicopter situation is a skill that needs to be rebuilt before any capability expansion is considered. Learn the tactics first, then perhaps procure a deployable aircraft. The real problem though is some behind the blue fence are reluctant to leave their cosy dublin homes. If they won't deploy to shannon, what hope is there to move them to lebanon or elsewhere?

gbee

[*]SAR function? Not a military task, should not be, for a small force. We saw it in the past when the air corps dedicated all its efforts into providing 24 hr SAR, and the military skills sufferred.

However, the SAR budget is impressive and the IAC provides Top Cover for same routinely. IMO it would make more sense to have SAR Ops a military function and it would give a sense of duty and accomplishment and a morale booster too.

As well as getting the best equipment, we buy helicopters from Canadian Helicopters for SAR, we could just as easily buy them for the military.

goldie fish

gbee wrote: »

However, the SAR budget is impressive and the IAC provides Top Cover for same routinely. IMO it would make more sense to have SAR Ops a military function and it would give a sense of duty and accomplishment and a morale booster too.

As well as getting the best equipment, we buy helicopters from Canadian Helicopters for SAR, we could just as easily buy them for the military.

What CHC are commiting to the SAR contract is an amount never before spent on SAR. Remember we were relying on the RAF and our own 30 year old single engine, daytime only machines until the Private Coast guard contract took over. Of course, morale boosting exercises in waterford, cost the lives of 4 crewmen.
To go back to military sar would be a backward step, and we would again see , in 2022 the air corps attempting to do SAR with AW139s... Remember CHC are providing helicopters and Crew, not just helicopters.

gbee

[QUOTE=goldie fish;76245876 SAR with AW139s... Remember CHC are providing helicopters and Crew, not just helicopters.[/QUOTE]

Why would you suspect this? And BTW CHC operate this type as well. But the superior aircraft is a version of the Eurocopter going forward.

Men can be trained and I did watch the R117 & R115 RTE productions and I do appreciate that CHC crew training is above current military training but men are men and women are women they can be trained or they fail.

Equipment is part of the CHC contract, I don't envisage the IAC getting the budget and not getting the best aircraft for the job too.

The Tramore accident was sad and a valid case of political interference over operational viability.

omg a kitty

2011 for the Air Corps

Just thought this should be in here, for people asking why we have the Air Corps if we're neutral, they dont provide air defence blah blah..they don't need to

Stovepipe

Hi there
In a lot of the cases that required air ambulance by the AC, the punters involved either hadn't the insurance cover required or the treatment was being paid for by the NTPF. The AC air ambulance effort consumes a lot more manpower and money than any civilian equivalent, so it isn't efficient in raw terms.
GF, the AC, as you know, had to be dragged kicking and screaming to give the Army the use of aviation assets it has asked for for years and in fairness to Ralph James, he got the ball rolling and continued his longtime policy of not being afraid to disturb local empires and to shout at people uintil the job was done to his satisfaction.
regards
Stovepipe

hippyrod

Why not incorporate the helicopters and maybe the pc-9's into the army and outsource the base maintenance and maybe some of the basic flying training and start using them to properly support the army and start sending them abroad. The casa's could be incorporated into the navy and the same thing done with the base maintenance and basic flying training. Scrap the glorified taxi's for government. Outsource the air ambulance and set up a dedicated air ambulance service. If all this was done you would also save on pay because presumably there would be no need for the higher ranks of the air corps anymore.

Irish_PC9

Corsendonk wrote: »

Well I think if you read the Lisbon Treaty it included a clause that allowed for member states to come to a member state aid in the event of a terrorist attack. So pick up the phone and ring the French or English if we have a hijacking in Irish airspace.

Are you dumb? The Irish Army Ranger Wing would be called in they would take over the plane and arrest possibly kill the suspects hijacking the plane.The Navy would do the same with boats and smugglers.

And yes,the Irish Air Corps have the grey coloured jet's have Anti-Air Missile Systems and Heavy Machine Guns.

And possibly more jet's that I wouldn't know of.I've been training with the Ranger Wing in plane hijackings and the ARW would definately go after the terrorist's.So there's a little lesson for you.;)

muppet01

Irish_PC9 wrote: »

Are you dumb? The Irish Army Ranger Wing would be called in they would take over the plane and arrest possibly kill the suspects hijacking the plane.The Navy would do the same with boats and smugglers.

And yes,the Irish Air Corps have the grey coloured jet's have Anti-Air Missile Systems and Heavy Machine Guns.

And possibly more jet's that I wouldn't know of.I've been training with the Ranger Wing in plane hijackings and the ARW would definately go after the terrorist's.So there's a little lesson for you.;)

Should i laugh or cry????:eek:

KickstartHeart

Irish_PC9 wrote: »

Are you dumb? The Irish Army Ranger Wing would be called in they would take over the plane and arrest possibly kill the suspects hijacking the plane.The Navy would do the same with boats and smugglers.

And yes,the Irish Air Corps have the grey coloured jet's have Anti-Air Missile Systems and Heavy Machine Guns.

And possibly more jet's that I wouldn't know of.I've been training with the Ranger Wing in plane hijackings and the ARW would definately go after the terrorist's.So there's a little lesson for you.;)

Are you trying to tell us that your'e an active or past member of the Irish Army Ranger Wing?

The Irish Air Corps do not own any grey coloured jets. The only jets the IAC own are Lear Jets for ministerial transport, and the PC-9 trainer planes have a jet-powered propeller engine. They do not own any aircraft that is something that people would not know about.

However, you are right when it comes to do with the Ranger Wing and hostage situations. In Ireland, hostage situations are of first, responsibilities of An Garda Siochana and their Emergency Response Unit. The Emergency Response Unit, or ERU, is a force made up of serving members of the Gardai that train in what would be easily described as SWAT style operations. If the situation is too much for the ERU to handle, the ARW take on the responsibility upon the request from the Gardai. Its the same as in the UK if something happens that the Police can't handle, they hand over responsibility of the situation to the SAS. The idea that Ireland would turn to another country to help us with a basic hostage situation is bordering on insulting to the capabilities of the country.

goldie fish

I also trained with the Rangers and I'm tellin you he's talkin crap :P

Delancey

Irish_PC9 wrote: »

Are you dumb? The Irish Army Ranger Wing would be called in they would take over the plane and arrest possibly kill the suspects hijacking the plane.The Navy would do the same with boats and smugglers.

And yes,the Irish Air Corps have the grey coloured jet's have Anti-Air Missile Systems and Heavy Machine Guns.

And possibly more jet's that I wouldn't know of.I've been training with the Ranger Wing in plane hijackings and the ARW would definately go after the terrorist's.So there's a little lesson for you.;)

Delighted to hear the Air Corps have such awesome weapons - means they can shoot down balloons at least , because they can shoot down f**k all else

Cardinal Richelieu

Irish_PC9 wrote: »

Are you dumb? The Irish Army Ranger Wing would be called in they would take over the plane and arrest possibly kill the suspects hijacking the plane.The Navy would do the same with boats and smugglers.

And yes,the Irish Air Corps have the grey coloured jet's have Anti-Air Missile Systems and Heavy Machine Guns.

And possibly more jet's that I wouldn't know of.I've been training with the Ranger Wing in plane hijackings and the ARW would definately go after the terrorist's.So there's a little lesson for you.;)

Pschophysiological Intense Military Training in the Phoenix Park is not part of Rangers training.

BigDuffman

Is this national walting week or what is happening?!

Owryan

"Anti Air missiles" can they only be kept in a vacuum ???

discus

BigDuffman wrote: »

Is this national walting week or what is happening?!

So it would seem!

goldie fish

Owryan wrote: »

"Anti Air missiles" can they only be kept in a vacuum ???

Use them under water...


Duh!

cruasder777

If anyone did hijack a plane mid air these days theres a good chance it would be shot down if it would not land as ordered. Also lots of airlines have sky marshalls on long flights and lots of airport security.

Terrorists rely on the element of suprise.

A cinema or theatre being taken, with hundreds of people and few exits, no windows is a more likely situation, no security going in and an easy target or the murder of soft targets as the recent French situation has shown.

Leonidas BL

Irish_PC9 wrote: »

Are you dumb? The Irish Army Ranger Wing would be called in they would take over the plane and arrest possibly kill the suspects hijacking the plane.The Navy would do the same with boats and smugglers.

And yes,the Irish Air Corps have the grey coloured jet's have Anti-Air Missile Systems and Heavy Machine Guns.

And possibly more jet's that I wouldn't know of.I've been training with the Ranger Wing in plane hijackings and the ARW would definately go after the terrorist's.So there's a little lesson for you.;)

You joined and wrote that for the craic didnt ya??? :pac:

Owryan

goldie fish wrote: »

Use them under water...


Duh!

then they be torpedos




Duh ! :P

Cardinal Richelieu

KickstartHeart wrote: »

The Emergency Response Unit, or ERU, is a force made up of serving members of the Gardai that train in what would be easily described as SWAT style operations. If the situation is too much for the ERU to handle, the ARW take on the responsibility upon the request from the Gardai. Its the same as in the UK if something happens that the Police can't handle, they hand over responsibility of the situation to the SAS. The idea that Ireland would turn to another country to help us with a basic hostage situation is bordering on insulting to the capabilities of the country.

Actually my original post was to do with Air Support from our fellow EU partners and I don't recall the Rangers being part of the Air Corps since this thread is about the Air Corps.:rolleyes: So if a hijacked plane required fighter escort over Irish Airspace has Ireland the fighter jets to do so within the Air Corps, Rangers, Garda? Or do they just pickup the phone and request Air Support from our EU partners so enacting the terrorist clause in the Lisbon Treaty?

RMD

Cardinal Richelieu wrote: »

Actually my original post was to do with Air Support from our fellow EU partners and I don't recall the Rangers being part of the Air Corps since this thread is about the Air Corps.:rolleyes: So if a hijacked plane required fighter escort over Irish Airspace has Ireland the fighter jets to do so within the Air Corps, Rangers, Garda? Or do they just pickup the phone and request Air Support from our EU partners so enacting the terrorist clause in the Lisbon Treaty?

AFAIK there's essentially already an agreement in place of some form that if a hijacked jet poses a threat to Ireland the RAF will look after it since we can do nothing.

cruasder777

RMD wrote: »

AFAIK there's essentially already an agreement in place of some form that if a hijacked jet poses a threat to Ireland the RAF will look after it since we can do nothing.

It would be an incredible dilemma though, imagine the Irish govt having to give the British military permission to shoot down an Irish airliner.

The political consequences and MI5 conspiracy theories from such an event would be incredible.

Maybe_Memories

Unless there's some other unreleased secret of Fatima we probably wont have a highjacked plane on our hands for a while.

But shur what harm anyway. I mean obviously the ARW could just borrow some air-to-air link up vehicle from Ireland's world-famous space program and transit to the highjacked plane undetected. Wouldn't that do like?

:pac:

Border-Rat

darkman2 wrote: »

It's funny when you listen to a representative of the Air Corps on a radio program and then they are asked "what do the Air Corps do?" - the response is often stuttering and frankly cringe worthy as they struggle to explain what the usefulness of the Air Corps is. They have no jet fighters and only a handful of helicopters (which act as a taxi service for when a GAA club needs opening by a Minister).


So what is the point in a: continuing the delusion that the Air Corps is little more then a bad joke? and b: wasting money on it? Why are these pilots being trained in propellar aircraft and for what? It's all a delusion really.


In my view it would be better for esteem just to get rid of it. What do you think?


(also just want to say it's not the fault of the pilots or staff that this accurate perception is there, they are fine individuals - but rather it's the imbiciles that run the country)

What do we want with jet fighters? :rolleyes:

goldie fish

Border-Rat wrote: »

What do we want with jet fighters? :rolleyes:

Klingons.
You never know...

Uncle Fester

The Irish Army is a frequent target of begrudgers, but when push comes to shove, it often performs better than our health service, writes Dr Anthony O’Connor

There are some days at work that you don’t forget in a hurry. I had one such recently. At 3pm on the day after one of those horrible sleepless Monday nights that January can bring, I got a call asking me to accompany a gravely ill young man to a hospital in London. Tran-sport was to be arranged courtesy of the air corps and the much maligned government jet.

The journey was mercifully uneventful, apart from passing the Prime Minister of Spain on the runway. We arrived at King’s College Hospital in London and safely delivered our patient.

King’s itself is a magnificent, brooding old London building. With its high ceilings, long corridors and foreboding wooden panels I found it reminded me of the Mater Hospital. An ambience enhanced by the fact that our welcoming committee at the doors of the emergency department included an elderly Dubliner with a large gash on his forehead performing a drunken serenade with his eyes shut. We turned around and made for home in London’s slowest ambulance. A 19-mile journey from the hospital to the RAF airbase took 90 minutes on this NHS charabanc. My journey was punctuated by several anxious phone calls enquiring of our progress from the airfield which had to stay open for a few hours beyond its usual time to accommodate our departure. You know you ha-ve seen it all in a medical SpR career when you find yourself getting grief from the RAF at the end of an on-call shift. Earbashings from surly radiologists and highly-strung surgeons will never hold quite the same cachet of fear when you have incurred the displeasure of a man who could turn a squadron of Typhoon euro-fighters on your sorry ass. I eventually flopped into bed at 1am, 41 hours after starting work.

The military in this country are frequently held up for derision. There is a broad consensus among the commentariat that our armed services are unfit for purpose and an unnecessary expense. As with most majority opinions in this little island of ours, however, it is wrong. Every year this country asks its armed forces to do a lot of things. Many of them are difficult, many are dangerous. I cannot recall them making a mess of any of them or letting the country down. Neither can I think of a single other branch of the public service or Irish public life of which the same can be said. We send them into war ravaged countries to wage peace. We ask them to confront unexploded bombs from dissident terrorists and gangsters. We command them to rescue survivors and recover the dead from our freezing waters. We order them to deal with natural disasters like floods and fires and social ones like drug smugglers and curious, inquisitive doctors on windy approaches to Baldonnell. When luminaries like the Queen, Barack Obama and the Chinese vice-premier come they are gladhanded by taoisigh, presidents, celebrities and Jedward before being handed hurleys and pints of Guinness. However, it is the barely-noticed men and women in uniform that do the heavy lifting to make it happen.

That day when we went over to King’s College Hospital in London, nothing was too much effort for the air corps personnel that brought us over. When the call came, they just got on with it and did everything they needed to do with no fuss whatsoever. They showed professionalism, kindness and humanity and I am extremely proud that they bear our flag on their uniforms. Their sole concern at all times was the safe transfer of our patient, regardless of inconvenience to themselves; this is an attitude all too unfamiliar among many of us employed in the delivery of health services.

It is a sad but true irony that many of our so-called caring professionals could do with taking a leaf from the book of the fighting men and women. I am sure our army, navy and air corps are not perfect organisations, but those in them do their difficult and dangerous jobs without complaint or rancour in the face of frequent opprobrium from the airwaves. The four-star critic-in-chief of our army is Ivan Yates, for-mer TD turned radio presenter from Wexford. This man retired from public li-fe in his early 40s and receives a government pension of €74,800 per year (according to the Wexford People newspaper) for sitting on his well-appointed backside and decrying servicemen earning significantly less than that, to the delight of his own army of public-service bashing radiostation-texting monkeys. Actually, forget that. Monkeys are noble, intelligent animals; these fellas are eejits, not monkeys.

The catchcry of that crowd when hearing of any government expenditure is a sneering, sarcastic ‘Isn’t it a great little country?’

It actually is, but that’s in spite of them.

Border-Rat

goldie fish wrote: »

Klingons.
You never know...

We already have a contingency for that - drinking them under the table.

Maoltuile

Uncle Fester wrote: »

The four-star critic-in-chief of our army is Ivan Yates, for-mer TD turned radio presenter from Wexford. This man retired from public li-fe in his early 40s and receives a government pension of €74,800 per year (according to the Wexford People newspaper) for sitting on his well-appointed backside and decrying servicemen earning significantly less than that, to the delight of his own army of public-service bashing radiostation-texting monkeys.

Not to mention apparently declaring himself a UK resident back in 2010... nothing to do with escaping his debts by declaring himself bankrupt in the UK, of course.

BostonB

There seems to be a lack of clarity on what the primary/secondary roles of the AC, and thus no one seem to know what equipment they need.

But I can't think of any scenario to which PC9's is the answer.

OS119

BostonB wrote: »

There seems to be a lack of clarity on what the primary/secondary roles of the AC, and thus no one seem to know what equipment they need.

But I can't think of any scenario to which PC9's is the answer.

i'd certainly agree with your first premise, and it goes to the heart of the problem - if you don't know what an organisation is supposed to achieve, how can you tell whether it has succeeded or not and whether it has the right establishment and equipment to allow it to succeed?

i'd dispute the second wrt the PC-9M's - there is a role they could undertake well within the current doctrine/operations of the Irish military (that of overwatch, ISR and CAS/Interdiction on Peace Support Operations) but for some reason they, like the LU/ML helicopters, stay at home while the Army goes overseas and sub-contracts either a commercial operator, or a military partner to provide the same capability as is sat on the tarmac at Baldonnell.

BostonB

OS119 wrote: »

...i'd dispute the second wrt the PC-9M's - there is a role they could undertake well within the current doctrine/operations of the Irish military (that of overwatch, ISR and CAS/Interdiction on Peace Support Operations) ....

The PC9 is not best suited to Overwatch and ISR. That would be its primary role so its mis matched there. Its debatable if CAS/Interdiction is something we need.

OS119

BostonB wrote: »

The PC9 is not best suited to Overwatch and ISR. That would be its primary role so its mis matched there. Its debatable if CAS/Interdiction is something we need.

i'd agree that its not best suited to the role, but there's no denying that it can do the role - as for CAS/interdiction, when the IA deployed to Chad they needed access to the French Air Force and Artillery to provide back up should they have needed it, indeed the DoD required it in order for the op to go ahead - the 'safe' debacle. thankfully they didn't need it, but the fact is that when the IA goes abroard someone is ready to support them should they need that support, the IA is likely to be better served when that support is provided by another Irish asset, local to the IA's AOR, and having trained with the IA previously.

both the FAF and the IA are good, well trained forces, but i wouldn't have bet my life on the 100% success of the first CAS mission requested by IA soldiers from FAF Mirage F1's - as far as i'm aware no Irish soldier has ever brought in a fast jet CAS mission, no Irish soldier has ever brought in a CAS mission that used 500lb guided weapons, and no CAS airstrike has ever been helped by one of the parties not having done it before.

BostonB

Thats an argument of not doing roles we are not equipped for, or have the budget to sustain.

Do our PC9 have any of the targeting systems required of a COIN aircraft, or indeed anything else COIN aircraft might have in terms of protection.

OS119

BostonB wrote: »

Thats an argument of not doing roles we are not equipped for, or have the budget to sustain.

Do our PC9 have any of the targeting systems required of a COIN aircraft, or indeed anything else COIN aircraft might have in terms of protection.

how can it be a role the IAC isn't equipped for when it has the aircraft, the crew, the weapons - as regularly seen on the DF flickr page - and the ground crews to suuport them, what kind of bizarre reasoning is that?

the IAC PC-9M's certainly have the targetting systems for unguided rockets and the .50 guns - other systems like Hellfire and Paveway are 'bolt-on' capabilties, the IAC at baldonnel has the tech capability to install them, and it could probably do them in the field. as far as i'm aware the IAC aircraft are not fitted with a DAS, but again there are 'bolt-on' systems available.

its not a big job, it wouldn't require a re-build, its just a metter of buying the kit (or asking partners to donate them) and attaching it. thats it.

Morpheus

if you can call in an aircraft whilst under fire, give it a target and that aircraft can find and strafe that target, destroying it, then you have a basic COIN capable aircraft, the rest is just a matter of affordable upgrading. we already have the above.

BostonB

Sure and it would likely end up an expensive crater.

Hellfire and Paveway LOL we couldn't afford them. Considering in the environment you'd need it, everyone and their brother is going to fire all sorts of weapons at it, lets consider what you'd have to add to it. IR suppression, armour, drop tanks, Chaff, Flare, A2G. Are the hard points rated for the weight, I suspect only two are and then marginal at best. None of it is wired for these and you have to install targeting systems for it. Probably need an uprated engine for all the weight. The you have the cost of all this, the modification, and the associated training. Then the cost of operating all this somewhere else.

Ultimately you're taking about taking on a role that its not equipped for and don't have the budget for.

OS119

BostonB wrote: »

...Ultimately you're taking about taking on a role that its not equipped for and don't have the budget for.

err... no, you're talking about operating over Helmand province (deliberately probably), i'm talking about operating over a Chad-like environment.

no radar guided threat - therefore no RWR, ECM, chaff or decoys required. IR/flares, yes, but thats about it - also, if theres no RG threat there's no need for longer ranged weapons than the current Unguided Rockets and .50 Guns.

the one thing they would need is a flare dispenser, thats it. everything else is in place - and yes, the inner hardpoints are 'wet' for external fuel tanks, they, and the next pair are rated at 250kg, and the outer pair (that IAC aircraft are 'fitted for, but not with'), are rated at 110kg.