Are teachers taking the p!ss?

poodles

slainte1 wrote: »

I have been listening to the same mis-informed, misguided and prejudiced comments about teachers and their working conditions for most of my career.
The DES consider that teachers spending five days during their holidays attending a CPD course, which entitles them to three days leave, represents good value for money. It is important to bear in mind that just over 50% of those EPV days are never availed of.
Irish Primary teachers work in the second worst pupil-teacher ratio in the EU and our combined spend on first and second level education is third from the bottom in the EU.
Irish primary teachers at induction and qualification have the highest requirement in Europe except for Finland.
The myths about teachers' hours abound. Lay people should bear in mind that you could require teachers to work 12 hour days if you like but who would benefit ? Certainly not the children.
I am aware that more and more parents want teachers to be in school not to teach but to babysit.
Irish society has been well served by a cohort of teachers that are highly trained. If any of you that can provide an example from anywhere in the developed world of an educational system that excels while not valuing its front line practitioners I would be more than surprised.
I should declare my background. I worked as a Primary School Principal in a deprived inner city school. I also worked as a DES inspector and in latter years I lectured in a College of Education.

How do Irish teachers compare to other european countries to wages do you know off hand?

Carlos_Ray

I say fair play to the teachers. Most people wouldn't dream of doing their job. Teaching brats and dealing with idiot parents on a weekly basis?? No thanks.

Even the holidays wouldn't attract me into the profession. If so many people actually do believe teachers have an easy time, why don't they become teachers?? Oh sorry, forgot. On top of the daily grind, the pay is crap.

How many teachers are in a position to post on Boards during working hours?? None, because unlike many of the office workers who spend 30% of their working day checking facebook, posting on forums etc, Teachers are .... actually doing their job.


Holidays are a small consolation

astra2000

I'm sure there's no other job on the same pay that requires the same amount of work outside work hours. I come from a family of teachers, you wouldn't believe the mental distress it causes.


Teachers, like many other professions, don't get anywhere near the respect they deserve.

I dont think there are many professions out there who get the respect they deserve thats life especially when you deal with members of the public. There is no denying it is a stressful job but there are lots of other jobs that are stressful and some even more so and they do not get even half this amount of holidays. When it comes to days off for funerals weddings etc a large part of our work force can not get time off for these events they have to work around it and go to funerals eve befoe and attend what ever is left of wedding/function after work should it be on a working day. primary school teachers hae 9 weeks of summer 2 at christmas 1 at halloween 2 at easter bank holidays and other days for half terms secondary school teachers get a lot more surely some of your ocasions fall during these times. There is no justifying this amount of time off . Also teachers are on excellent salaries probaly too high!
Slainte1 I do not want my kids in school for 12hrs the current day is long enough and I send my kids to school to be taught not baby sat you have obviously been disillusioned after teaching in an inner city school and see all parents in the same light . Teaching is like every profession it has plenty of great workers and plenty of not so great.

poodles

Carlos_Ray wrote: »

I say fair play to the teachers. Most people wouldn't dream of doing their job. Teaching brats and dealing with idiot parents on a weekly basis?? No thanks.

Even the holidays wouldn't attract me into the profession. If so many people actually do believe teachers have an easy time, why don't they become teachers?? Oh sorry, forgot. On top of the daily grind, the pay is crap.

How many teachers are in a position to post on Boards during working hours?? None, because unlike many of the office workers who spend 30% of their working day checking facebook, posting on forums etc, Teachers are .... actually doing their job.


Holidays are a small consolation

The pay is crap?

Tell the truth - you havn't a clue what your talking about.

goose2005

super_furry wrote: »

Anyone that can stand up in front of a group of 30 screaming ****s, teaching them when they don't want to learn, deserves all the time off they can get.

Lots of jobs are hard. Do surgeons, miners, firemen, soldiers etc. get 80 days off per annum?

brummytom

poodles wrote: »

try anything up to 3 free periods a day. And anytime a teacher would 'fill in' for an absent teacher - they would usually sit at the desk and let the students study or do their homework.

stop trying to pull the other one - we all went to school.

Three periods a day is not even close - may I ask where you get your knowledge of teachers' workdays?

If teachers have to use their supply lessons to do work then surely they have a lot of work to do?


Merely 'Going to school' gives you no insight into a teacher's actual work. I've been to hospital a fair few times, I've no idea what doctors' days are like.

Catari Jaguar

Hahah! I did a dance course and learned the Thriller routine, did some yoga & Irish dancing and watched So You Think You Can Dance? on Youtube. Can't wait for my 3 days off. Suckah!















Course content was actually very useful and relevant and I look forward to implementing it with gusto in my classroom come September

poodles

brummytom wrote: »

Three periods a day is not even close - may I ask where you get your knowledge of teachers' workdays?

If teachers have to use their supply lessons to do work then surely they have a lot of work to do?


Merely 'Going to school' gives you no insight into a teacher's actual work. I've been to hospital a fair few times, I've no idea what doctors' days are like.

I already mentioned a couple of times that my dad was a teacher (38 years I think) He often got a free periods to run errands for the house.

Two of my brothers are teachers - although they are not full time - one of their wives is a full time teacher.
My flat mate's mother is a teacher as is my friends girlfriend (currently getting paid to swan around south east asia for 2 months)

poodles

cherub rock wrote: »

Hahah! I did a dance course and learned the Thriller routine, did some yoga & Irish dancing and watched So You Think You Can Dance? on Youtube. Can't wait for my 3 days off. Suckah!


Course content was actually very useful and relevant and I look forward to implementing it with gusto in my classroom come September

So how much did your course cost?

Catari Jaguar

poodles wrote: »

So how much did your course cost?

None of your business.





Nah, just kidding. It was €75. I was gonna do an art course in Marino but that was €90 so I thought "sod that!" Last year I did an online course on Emotional & Behavioural Disurbances in children but it was such a hard slog, and quite intense and depressing. It was €120! :eek:

gymfreak

No, we are not "taking the piss" and I really don't see what is wrong with us doing these courses. I'm doing a child psychology course and I don't see anything wrong with us getting 3days off in lieu of it. In fact 50% of these 'course days' are not even used by teachers. I do the course for two reasons a) because I am highly interested in the content and b) because these days are needed to attend weddings, funerals, appointment or engagements that occur within the school day.

Also, people often forget the amount of time teachers spend preparing lessons, getting resources and putting together a plan for the education of these children. All this does not happen within in the school day, I'm LUCKY if I manage to get a 20min break in the school day.

McNulty737

Right so after 5 pages to summarise:

With their incredible sense of entitlement, extremely generous pay & benefits, not to mention pension and annual leave....and also at times worryingly poor grammar....yes teachers in ireland are indeed, taking the piss.

Shocking to think that Irish children are being taught by people so delusional and out of touch with reality, we can thank Bertie and his love for social partnership once again.

Catari Jaguar

McNulty737 wrote: »

Right so after 5 pages to summarise:

With their incredible sense of entitlement, extremely generous pay & benefits, not to mention pension and annual leave....and also at times worryingly poor grammar....yes teachers in ireland are indeed, taking the piss.

Shocking to think that Irish children are being taught by people so delusional and out of touch with reality, we can thank Bertie and his love for social partnership once again.

Yay! You are so right sir, so right! Well done! I'm glad we've gotten this sorted and can get on with our lives.

parker kent

brummytom wrote: »

Exactly. Anyone who whinges that teachers 'have it easy' are obviously ignorant.

I'm sure there's no other job on the same pay that requires the same amount of work outside work hours. I come from a family of teachers, you wouldn't believe the mental distress it causes.


Teachers, like many other professions, don't get anywhere near the respect they deserve.

+1 Teachers have one of the most important jobs in any country. Other people can be crap at their job and it makes no real difference to anybody. However, a good or a bad teacher can change somebody's life. Something that important needs to be shown respect.

I don't really mind teachers getting a few perks if it gets the best people involved in teaching. Pay peanuts and you get monkeys. I'm not saying we have it perfect here (the education system could be improved) but I don't blame teachers who have to put up 30 disinterested kids every day. That is a job I know I would not want or be able to do. Fair play to them.

McNulty737

cherub rock wrote: »

Yay! You are so right sir, so right! Well done! I'm glad we've gotten this sorted and can get on with our lives.

Excellent, glad you agree.

So lets move forward from this, and bring our teachers pay in line with their European counterparts. With the MASSIVE savings generated, we can reduce the teacher to pupil ratio by hiring unemployed graduate teachers aswell as providing funding for improved facilities for our students.

Incredible to think 75-80% of money spent on education goes on teachers salaries isnt it? :eek: Good old INTO....sure they must think the population are a bunch of ignorant gob****es

Ollchailin

Ugh. Bit of originality would be nice instead of the same blaaaaaaah: "teachers are overpaid & lazy"/"no they're not, you try it if you think it's that easy".

Blah.

slainte1

McNulty737 wrote: »

Right so after 5 pages to summarise:

With their incredible sense of entitlement, extremely generous pay & benefits, not to mention pension and annual leave....and also at times worryingly poor grammar....yes teachers in ireland are indeed, taking the piss.

Shocking to think that Irish children are being taught by people so delusional and out of touch with reality, we can thank Bertie and his love for social partnership once again.

Well done ! A balanced response. It must help when you have a chip on both shoulders.

parker kent

Ollchailin wrote: »

Ugh. Bit of originality would be nice instead of the same blaaaaaaah: "teachers are overpaid & lazy"/"no they're not, you try it if you think it's that easy".

Blah.

OK....teachers are aliens come from the planet Kandoo here to implant their secret agenda in our children. Somebody must stop them soon!!!

appleb

Can I suggest that those who think teaching is such a cushy number go and train to be a teacher? Fed up hearing complaints. If I want to get the benefits of being a surgeon/ Barrister/ etc then I would go and train to do so. No point in me sitting complaining!

Catari Jaguar

McNulty737 wrote: »

Excellent, glad you agree.

So lets move forward from this, and bring our teachers pay in line with their European counterparts. With the MASSIVE savings generated, we can reduce the teacher to pupil ratio by hiring unemployed graduate teachers aswell as providing funding for improved facilities for our students.

Incredible to think 75-80% of money spent on education goes on teachers salaries isnt it? :eek: Good old INTO....sure they must think the population are a bunch of ignorant gob****es

Hahahahahah. You know nothing. Go back to school.

Carlos_Ray

poodles wrote: »

The pay is crap?

Tell the truth - you havn't a clue what your talking about.

Tell the truth-You tried to get into teacher training and failed. Your posts ooze with envy.

Terri26

Firstly - we do not get paid for our free classes, our lunch hours, our breaks etc. We are contracted and paid only for our teacher student contact time.
Secondly to the poster who said we should not get paid for correcting state exams. I am correcting exams now and it is hellish. I normally have to do it for 10 hours a day and the pay isn't good as obviously we are taxed a lot due to getting paid already. I hate it with a passion but I do it as it benefits my students in the long run.
Finally I have never taken a sick day or even a day off, not all teachers take "a week of for the common cold".
Secondary teachers do not get to take days off if we do a course. Primary school teachers need to do these courses incase something come up like a funeral.

Catari Jaguar

Don't justify yourself. Anyone with half a brain knows that the job is hard & the conditions are tough. Just some jealous, clueless mongs here with chips on their shoulders that wanna believe the Irish Independent.

I'm just looking forward to sleeping in til 1:30 tomorrow. Ironically, that's the time when my junior infants used to feck off home.

Ollchailin

parker kent wrote: »

OK....teachers are aliens come from the planet Kandoo here to implant their secret agenda in our children. Somebody must stop them soon!!!

Well if that's the case, we should give them more holidays, to keep them away from the children!!

More holidays I say!!

poodles

Carlos_Ray wrote: »

Tell the truth-You tried to get into teacher training and failed. Your posts ooze with envy.

I'm a civil engineer made redundant last Jan actually.

twinytwo

astra2000 wrote: »

Yep it is a p**s take but you cant blame the teachers they do the course they are entitled to whatever their employer(our government) decides they get. I think all these courses should take place outside term time and should be compulsary with no other time off for doing them, likewise I think paying secondary school teachers extra for supervising and correcting state exams is ludicrous!!! this should be part of their job. Dont get me wrong I believe they have a very stressful and important job (as plenty of people in other occupations do to) and I value the job they do very much but I do believe that 5/6 weeks during the summer is ample holidays!

at least they dont ahve it as cushy as the government does when it comes to hols

Ollchailin

poodles wrote: »

I'm a civil engineer made redundant last Jan actually.

Ah. I understand now....

poodles

Ollchailin wrote: »

Ah. I understand now....

Do explain..

Whats your job?

parker kent

Ollchailin wrote: »

Well if that's the case, we should give them more holidays, to keep them away from the children!!

More holidays I say!!

They can be spotted when they refer to "Kandoo Spirit". The secret password. Crap...I've said too much

brambo

poodles wrote: »

As regards Secondary school teachers - yes they do.

And if they don't, then their argument that they do lots of preparation work and corrections at home goes out the window.

A full time teacher will not work a full 9-16:30 as mentioned above - they'll get 'free periods' - WHICH THEY GET PAID FOR

poodles wrote: »

Primary school teachers are able to do a course during the summer which enables them to take an extra 3 days (atleast) personal annual leave. Have they not enough days off a year paid as it is?

Surely if these courses are worth putting on for our teachers then it's a good idea to make them compulsory during mid terms or the like?


Some of the online courses over on http://www.cpdcollege.com/site/summercourses.htm seem a bit 'simple'.



"EPV day is extra personal vacation, although they're usually called course days. If a teacher does a week's inservice course during the summer holidays s/he is entitled to 3 days off during the school year. If they do a 2 week course, they get 4 days and a 3 week course gives 5 days. No sub cover is provided for these days and so the children are usually divided up through the other classes."

Poodles, are you talking about Primary or Secondary school teachers?

Can I just add, as someone who is about to qualify and start teaching his own class in September, as soon as the bell goes in the morning, there is very little down time (especially with the juniors). It is very intense, but also extremely rewarding. I'm not saying that no other profession has this, but just to let you know we aren't sitting around reading fairy tales all day.

Catari Jaguar

poodles wrote: »

I'm a civil engineer made redundant last Jan actually.

Misery loves company...

poodles

brambo wrote: »

Poodles, are you talking about Primary or Secondary school teachers?

Can I just add, as someone who is about to qualify and start teaching his own class in September, as soon as the bell goes in the morning, there is very little down time (especially with the juniors). It is very intense, but also extremely rewarding. I'm not saying that no other profession has this, but just to let you know we aren't sitting around reading fairy tales all day.

Sorry yea, the thread moved from Primary to Secondary :>

Obviously the free periods are about secondary teachers.

I'd imagine primary teachers are run off their feet moreso than secondary counterparts (and they get a months less holiday!)

but I suppose schools finishes at what, 2:30? Sweet init?

QuiteInterestin

Does it matter what kind of a course they do?

A teacher I know commented recently that they would be doing a course over the summer to get their 3 course days during the year, but that it shouldn't be too hard as it was much the same as the one they had done last year.

If the whole point of these courses are upskilling and learning whats new in education, how come they can get away with doing simalar type of courses every year?

lily09

Seriously fellow teachers and those few that don't think we are evil warlords don't even bother trying to reason with some of these posters! No matter what you say they won't be happy until we are paying them for the privledge of teaching their little darlings for 20 hours a day. I say build a bridge and get over it, meanwhile we can enjoy the pleasure that is no alarm clock for 5 more weeks !!!:D

shampon

****ing Envious ***** in this thread. If you think they have it handy **** off and get a job as a teacher...it's not that ****ing difficult...maybe during the boom you should have refused to buy two grands worth of coke every weekend. SPAS.

Ollchailin

Oh I'm a teacher. I'm not permanent (been qualified for almost 7 years now) and I don't have full hours. But that usually doesn't stop people giving me the usual speil about how easy I have it.

All I meant in my post is that generally the people who are complaining about teachers have no experience of the classroom beyond being a student themselves and they often lash out not knowing all the facts. I absolutely agree that there are changes needed in our system. I love having time off- any teacher that says otherwise is a liar. But it ultimately cannot be the reason why someone becomes a teacher, or you will literally go out of your mind. Someone earlier, for example, suggested that teachers could do courses over the Halloween break. If that was the case, we would not get any break, bar weekends, for 4 months. I know that might be ok in some jobs, but not in teaching. In fact, I would imagine the standard of teaching would suffer as a result. At least the anti-teacher brigade might ease off a little on the whole holidays issue, and let's not let that get in the way of effective teaching.

As regards wages- I just about live comfortably. I drive a small car and just about afford the mortgage on my small mid-terraced home. I'm happy with my lot. But I'm not loaded. I won't be taking a holiday this year, but sure maybe next year. However, in this country, it seems that if your finances aren't falling apart at the seams & your bank knocking at your door- others think "well isn't it well for ya with your job and your stuff and your government job". Well, it is actually, yeah. I'm bloody lucky and I really wish everyone was as lucky as me. But I will NOT be made feel like I don't deserve what I have.

Honestly and genuinely poodles, I'm sorry about you not having work. And I do believe and agree with you that some things need to change about teaching in this country. Possibly many things, even. But saying that teachers are "taking the piss" makes it sound like we're all sitting back pointing and laughing at the rest of the country. We're not. At least most of us aren't- and I just wish people could see that.

poodles

shampon wrote: »

****ing Envious ***** in this thread. If you think they have it handy **** off and get a job as a teacher...it's not that ****ing difficult...maybe during the boom you should have refused to buy two grands worth of coke every weekend. SPAS.

Haha,

Maybe teachers shouldn't have gotten into so much debt buying houses they couldn't afford?

poodles

Ollchailin wrote: »

Oh I'm a teacher. I'm not permanent (been qualified for almost 7 years now) and I don't have full hours. But that usually doesn't stop people giving me the usual speil about how easy I have it.

All I meant in my post is that generally the people who are complaining about teachers have no experience of the classroom beyond being a student themselves and they often lash out not knowing all the facts. I absolutely agree that there are changes needed in our system. I love having time off- any teacher that says otherwise is a liar. But it ultimately cannot be the reason why someone becomes a teacher, or you will literally go out of your mind. Someone earlier, for example, suggested that teachers could do courses over the Halloween break. If that was the case, we would not get any break, bar weekends, for 4 months. I know that might be ok in some jobs, but not in teaching. In fact, I would imagine the standard of teaching would suffer as a result. At least the anti-teacher brigade might ease off a little on the whole holidays issue, and let's not let that get in the way of effective teaching.

As regards wages- I just about live comfortably. I drive a small car and just about afford the mortgage on my small mid-terraced home. I'm happy with my lot. But I'm not loaded. I won't be taking a holiday this year, but sure maybe next year. However, in this country, it seems that if your finances aren't falling apart at the seams & your bank knocking at your door- others think "well isn't it well for ya with your job and your stuff and your government job". Well, it is actually, yeah. I'm bloody lucky and I really wish everyone was as lucky as me. But I will NOT be made feel like I don't deserve what I have.

Honestly and genuinely poodles, I'm sorry about you not having work. And I do believe and agree with you that some things need to change about teaching in this country. Possibly many things, even. But saying that teachers are "taking the piss" makes it sound like we're all sitting back pointing and laughing at the rest of the country. We're not. At least most of us aren't- and I just wish people could see that.

The whole taking the p!ss thing was that teachers were able to take another 3 days holidays on top of what they already have.

Catari Jaguar

poodles wrote: »

Haha,

Maybe teachers shouldn't have gotten into so much debt buying houses they couldn't afford?

I sleep in the PE hall. I pitch a tent. It's grand. No rent, and I use the school washing machine and the staff room cooker/ kettle. Don't even have to pay the TV licence, cos schools are exempt. It's class! All at the tax payers expense... :cool:

brambo

poodles wrote: »

Sorry yea, the thread moved from Primary to Secondary :>

Obviously the free periods are about secondary teachers.

I'd imagine primary teachers are run off their feet moreso than secondary counterparts (and they get a months less holiday!)

but I suppose schools finishes at what, 2:30? Sweet init?

Yes, at roughly 2.30 the children go home. And yes, for some teachers, this also means home time. But from my own experience, most teachers would stay longer, correcting homework, putting up new displays, preparing for the next day etc. Personally speaking, I find it very difficult to "switch off" from teaching mode. I'm always on the look out for new resources or ideas for the classroom.

****ing Envious ***** in this thread. If you think they have it handy **** off and get a job as a teacher...it's not that ****ing difficult...maybe during the boom you should have refused to buy two grands worth of coke every weekend. SPAS.

Good one.

Oafley Jones

poodles wrote: »

The whole taking the p!ss thing was that teachers were able to take another 3 days holidays on top of what they already have.

Out of curiosity, why teachers and why start a thread on it. You seem very animated over it, afterall this isn't a new practice?

Catari Jaguar

Oafley Jones wrote: »

Out of curiosity, why teachers and why start a thread on it. You seem very animated over it, afterall this isn't a new practice?

He just heard of it and is spreading the word. Teachers trading in up to 3 weeks of holidays to learn some new skills that would benefit the children (and paying for the courses themselves) and in return getting (less than) 1/2 the days back (at no expense to the state) is something to be very animated about.

OP is redundant and bitter it would seem. And sure, if all the teachers are working for free 24/7 it'll make his situation better.

Makes sense to me.

poodles

cherub rock wrote: »

He just heard of it and is spreading the word. Teachers trading in up to 3 weeks of holidays to learn some new skills that would benefit the children (and paying for the courses themselves) and in return getting (less than) 1/2 the days back (at no expense to the state) is something to be very animated about.

OP is redundant and bitter it would seem. And sure, if all the teachers are working for free 24/7 it'll make his situation better.

Makes sense to me.

If you took time to read back through the thread and weren't so lazy to jump in you'd know otherwise to your first scentence.


Oafley Jones,
The reason I started a thread was that a friend who's a Primary School teacher posted on her facebook asking for a "cheap and easy summer online course" to fellow primary teachers

Blah

Catari Jaguar

poodles wrote: »

If you took time to read back through the thread and weren't so lazy to jump in you'd know otherwise to your first scentence.


Oafley Jones,
The reason I started a thread was that a friend who's a Primary School teacher posted on her facebook asking for a "cheap and easy summer online course" to fellow primary teachers

Blah

I read the thread. It's 90% garbage.

Did you take it up with her that she's taking the piss etc?

poodles

poodles wrote: »

If you took time to read back through the thread and weren't so lazy to jump in you'd know otherwise to your first scentence.


Oafley Jones,
The reason I started a thread was that a friend who's a Primary School teacher posted on her facebook asking for a "cheap and easy summer online course" to fellow primary teachers

Blah

One of her friends replied with "INTO equal rights is only €25 most ppl doing that one"

She even got the name wrong.
Am I not allowed be sceptical here?

Oafley Jones

poodles wrote: »

If you took time to read back through the thread and weren't so lazy to jump in you'd know otherwise to your first scentence.


Oafley Jones,
The reason I started a thread was that a friend who's a Primary School teacher posted on her facebook asking for a "cheap and easy summer online course" to fellow primary teachers

Blah

No, I wanted to know why this was a topic you decided to engage in. Let's face it, there's plenty of juicier targets e.g. CB/FR, NAMA, BOI, Anglo etc. and you've never commented on any of them. So I wondered what was it about teachers that has got you so riled up that you had to start a thread on it. Your answer pretty much confirms my initial read on this, and that all this isn't motivated by any civic notions but by simple envy.

lily09

Sceptical is thing but you started a thread saying are teachers taking the piss?I presume you can honestly say in your whole career you have never once taken an easier option...

johnpawl

poodles wrote: »

If you took time to read back through the thread and weren't so lazy to jump in you'd know otherwise to your first scentence.

Hahahaha you would have benifited greatly from more contact time with your english teacher

poodles

lily09 wrote: »

Sceptical is thing but you started a thread saying are teachers taking the piss?I presume you can honestly say in your whole career you have never once taken an easier option...

Yea, taking the p!ss as in they apply for MORE days of in the year when it would seem that they have the most holoidays of any job in the country.

Ollchailin

Oafley Jones wrote: »

No, I wanted to know why this was a topic you decided to engage in. Let's face it, there's plenty of juicier targets e.g. CB/FR, NAMA, BOI, Anglo etc. and you've never commented on any of them. So I wondered what was it about teachers that has got you so riled up that you had to start a thread on it. Your answer pretty much confirms my initial read on this, and that all this isn't motivated by any civic notions but by simple envy.

People comment on teachers because everyone has experience of being in front of one for a significant amount of time. People talk about teachers because most people know a teacher- either a friend or a relative.

But mostly people talk about teachers because there's a part of them- sometimes only a tiny part, sometimes a big part- that thinks they could give it a go themselves.

And sometimes what they have to say is fair enough, and sometimes what they have to say, is as you say- envy. Depends on the person, depends on the argument.

It'll always be this way, I'm sure of it.