Are teachers taking the p!ss?

Strata

cherub rock wrote: »

Strata wrote: »

Who's fault is it that the govt can't pay our salaries? Teachers??? Making us do extra work won't change the pay we get. We've been cut & frozen. You can't complain. What'll you do if teachers realise they're better off on dole and quit?

It really doesn't matter who's fault it is/was. The fact is that the government can't afford to pay you. Your employer can't afford your wages anymore.

I'm sure there will be plenty of unemployed graduates willing to take their place.

What's wrong with working to rule? My Union told us t do it. We have to. Do you do extra work that you're not paid for in your line of work? Can't do work to rule next year when all the new measures are introduced.

Working to rule is a form of industrial action and you've already said that you are working at 67% of what you were before the cuts.

Yes I work overtime regularly in my job and I'm not paid extra for it.

We don't know what the inspectpors are looking for. They'll have an agenda based on not wanting to fund schools or give teachers their increments. So things like the roll book being in blue pen & not black. Do you not think that dealing with 30 crazy junior infants and trying to settle them is hard enough w/o fearing that some one is gona barge in and disrupt it all. I had to go through 2 years with an inspector. She's was a dragon. I was so stressed I was on antibiotics 4 times a year but couldn't take sick days as I needed to be available for her visits.

Was your 2 years of inspector visits as part of your teacher training? Without departmental visits how else do you propose your preformance be evaluated?

Any teacher worth their salt knows that "class preparation" doesn't equate to a satisfactory inspectorate visit.

No it's not a cost to the state for EPVs because we already worked them in the summer and paid to do them.

You clearly know NOTHING about the practicalities or day-to-day life in the teaching profession. Pie in the sky ideas.

Why are my ideas pie in the sky?

Strata

parker kent wrote: »

Obviously not. But there are bigger problems in Ireland. This issue is like worrying about a paper cut when there is a bullet wound elsewhere.

I am not even that sure that this is a real example of an inefficiency. Deciding here on the basis of two wildly opposite viewpoints is not much help.

So just because there are bigger problems we should forget about the smaller problems? Why can't the "paper cut" and the "bullet wound" be treated at the same time.

And I think it's an inefficiency because teachers are entitled to time off during term when they are being paid to teach.

Strata

cherub rock wrote: »

I did, look up ^^^

LST = learning support teacher/ language support teacher

What would the LST be doing if they weren't supervising your class while you're off for the day?

hamsterboy

Also another thing that has also puzzled me about teaching in Ireland.
How feckin easy it is to get into.
Not that I'd be interested in it....
Do an "Arts Degree" and learn about all different types of useless stuff that will in no way aid you in a future career as a teacher.
Next...... apply to Mary Immaculate.... or where ever.
If you don;t get in, do the online course on the web.....
BANG
Guess what??
You're useless ass is now a teacher.
Now go start planning your long summer months off!!

Funny, I've have a B.Sc and an M.Sc, both directly connected with the job I do (I.T.) and yet these wasters are getting paid more than me with a ton of benefits and loads of paid time off...... something's really wrong with this picture.

HB

Catari Jaguar

Strata wrote: »

cherub rock wrote: »

Why are my ideas pie in the sky?

ARGH! FFS I can't even quote your questions.

I'm not sitting here playing tennis of stupid questions that thinks that our boss can't afford to pay us anymore. Ok Boss, I'll just work for free then!

Wtf does unemployed graduates will do it even mean? What are you talking about?!

67% of what I was working at is still 100% of what is neccesary for me to do. Can't expect anymore. Yet everyone does. I came off a red eye flight from NJ into school on the airport bus with my suit case because I couldn't miss a day in my dip (probationary) year. Could have taken a course day - but no, in case inspector arrived.

The inspectorate year is the probabtionary year. Meant to be 1 year, mine decided that she wouldn't be happy until all the soul was sucked out of her bunch of NQTs (newly qualified teachers) and kept some of us for 2 years. Getting an inspectorate report (based on the opinion of ONE person on ONE day) in your frst year out when you have zero experience, and your inspector offers no advice just criticisism, that will be judged in interviews for 40 years is pretty stupid.

If you bothered to research you would see that a complete overhaul has been planned by the INTO for the probationary year as it is bull**** the way it is.

I'm pretty sure the class, parents, colleagues and principals are in a better position to evaluate teacher performance over some random inspector that knows nothing about you, your school policies, your methods or your class.

If you're not paid overtime for your extra work, then it's just regular time I guess. I'm not paid overtime either.

Day is shared between principal and LSTs based on their timetables. If not feasible class is split up and sent with work into other classrooms. Again, no one loses out because of course days. You can try to say it anyway you like. It just DOESN'T HAPPEN.

Like I said, you are contributing no new ideas, just pissing and moaning for the sake of it. Sniping away at the teaching profession and I'm not gonna humour you aymore. Go bitch on educationposts.ie. See how far you get over there.

Il Trap

hamsterboy wrote: »

Also another thing that has also puzzled me about teaching in Ireland.
How feckin easy it is to get into.
Not that I'd be interested in it....
Do an "Arts Degree" and learn about all different types of useless stuff that will in no way aid you in a future career as a teacher.
Next...... apply to Mary Immaculate.... or where ever.
If you don;t get in, do the online course on the web.....
BANG
Guess what??
You're useless ass is now a teacher.
Now go start planning your long summer months off!!

Funny, I've have a B.Sc and an M.Sc, both directly connected with the job I do (I.T.) and yet these wasters are getting paid more than me with a ton of benefits and loads of paid time off...... something's really wrong with this picture.

HB

Arts Degrees are not 'useless'. There are many different types and its unfair that you tar all with the same brush. That was your choice to pursue a career in IT, obtaining the necessary qualifications along the way. You knew the type of salary that you would earn and still persevered. Your rant at teachers pay and benefits suggests a mixture of bitterness and pig ignorance.

RolandIRL

nipplenuts wrote: »

Which three months in summer? 30 June to 30 August this year. Let me count...oh, I get a total there of two.

i was actually referring to secondary school teachers' holidays (end of may to end of august). but it roughly works out the same when you consider that primary school teachers finish earlier in the day but work an extra month.

but i'm confused about this thread now. are we talking about primary or secondary teachers?

Strata

cherub rock wrote: »

Strata wrote: »

ARGH! FFS I can't even quote your questions.

I'm not sitting here playing tennis of stupid questions that thinks that our boss can't afford to pay us anymore. Ok Boss, I'll just work for free then!

So you think that other civil servants should take pay cuts just not teachers because "it's not the teachers fault!". You're happy enough for the government to cut front line health services because again "the teachers didn't cause the recession". You sound the same age as one of the Junior Infants you teach!

Wtf does unemployed graduates will do it even mean? What are you talking about?!

I'm fairly confident unemployed graduate teachers would take your job in a heartbeat were you leave teaching.

67% of what I was working at is still 100% of what is neccesary for me to do. Can't expect anymore. Yet everyone does. I came off a red eye flight from NJ into school on the airport bus with my suit case because I couldn't miss a day in my dip (probationary) year.

Good for you but I think most people turn up for work when it's they're in employment. It's usually a requirement of the job.

The inspectorate year is the probabtionary year. Meant to be 1 year, mine decided that she wouldn't be happy until all the soul was sucked out of her bunch of NQTs (newly qualified teachers) and kept some of us for 2 years. Getting an inspectorate report (based on the opinion of ONE person on ONE day) in your frst year out when you have zero experience, and your inspector offers no advice just criticisism, that will be judged in interviews for 40 years is pretty stupid.

She is qualified to evaluate you. I suppose would you prefer to be let loose on the student population even if you weren't adequately qualified.

If you bothered to research you would see that a complete overhaul has been planned by the INTO for the probationary year as it is bull**** the way it is.

I'm pretty sure the class, parents, colleagues and principals are in a better position to evaluate teacher performance over some random inspector that knows nothing about you, your school policies, your methods or your class.

So you think you should be evaluated by a group of people who are not in the least objective and who could very easily be influenced by their relationship with you?

What has the schools policy got to do with you being evaluated as a teacher?

If you're not paid overtime for your extra work, then it's just regular time I guess. I'm not paid overtime either.

Day is shared between principal and LSTs based on their timetables. If not feasible class is split up and sent with work into other classrooms. Again, no one loses out because of course days. You can try to say it anyway you like. It just DOESN'T HAPPEN.

So basically you taking one day off disrupts the LST or the principal.

So the teachers to whose classes your students are allocated to - does this not lead to overcrowding? I think you'll find that overcrowding in a classroom is not conducive to learning.

Like I said, you are contributing no new ideas, just pissing and moaning for the sake of it. Sniping away at the teaching profession and I'm not gonna humour you aymore. Go bitch on educationposts.ie. See how far you get over there.

I suspect you realise that you're fighting a losing argument!

Catari Jaguar

Strata wrote: »

cherub rock wrote: »

I suspect you realise that you're fighting a losing argument!

Yea, you have all the answers... *head beats wall* :rolleyes:

Don't you straw man my arguements or make sweeping statements and put words in my mouth, Having to resort to that surely means that you are fighting a losing argument.

There's nothing to argue anyways. What is your experience of teaching and school? (apart from being in school many moons ago) Please enlighten me. You seem to think you know an awful lot (your answers are ill-conceived and unrealistic btw)

You don't even know the significance of school policy!! Stop. You're embarrassing youself.

I don't know if you have ANY iota of how frustrating it is to hear the same old sh1t day in and out from people that haven't a clue what they're talking about and think that no matter how tough your job is it's all a walk in the park & they have a right to say whatever it is that pops into their head because "teachers get holidays - rabble rabble rabble".

hamsterboy

Il Trap wrote: »

You knew the type of salary that you would earn and still persevered.

Woah... Typical.
Least we know what is uppermost in prospective teacher's minds going through college.
I knew what my salary would be (cept for the bloody income levy pushed on everyone but thats another rant )
Thing is I have always ENJOYED working with technology..... how many people choose teaching as a profession because they like doing it.... easy.... NONE.... cos none of them have ever done it..... unless you count babysitting.
Most just see the salary (as shown above) and holidays, not to mention the increments (though they may be gone now I admit)

Il Trap wrote: »

mixture of bitterness and pig ignorance

Now now, could it be I'm being talked down to by a teacher..... well it's not the first time I guess, but I don't see the need for personal attacks. I'm as entitled to my opinion as you are.

HB

Catari Jaguar

hamsterboy wrote: »

Funny, I've have a B.Sc and an M.Sc, both directly connected with the job I do (I.T.) and yet these wasters are getting paid more than me with a ton of benefits and loads of paid time off...... something's really wrong with this picture.

How much time off did you get for your M. Sc.?

What do you earn?

hamsterboy

cherub rock wrote: »

How much time off did you get for your M. Sc.?

What do you earn?

Not sure what you're asking there
I went straight into an M.Sc. after my degree.
It's was only partially funded so I had to take on some hours in a call centre...... that was fun

Also, asking what I earn???? 37K in my present job after 3 years here.... not that it's any of your business.
How much do YOU earn?????

HB

Strata

cherub rock wrote: »

Strata wrote: »

Yea, you have all the answers... *head beats wall* :rolleyes:

Don't you straw man my arguements or make sweeping statements and put words in my mouth, Having to resort to that surely means that you are fighting a losing argument.

There's nothing to argue anyways. What is your experience of teaching and school? (apart from being in school many moons ago) Please enlighten me. You seem to think you know an awful lot (your answers are ill-conceived and unrealistic btw)

Because only a teacher can identify improvements so the taxpayer can get better value for money?

You don't even know the significance of school policy!! Stop. You're
embarrassing youself.

Do enlighten me.

I don't know if you have ANY iota of how frustrating it is to hear the same old sh1t day in and out from people that haven't a clue what they're talking about and think that no matter how tough your job is it's all a walk in the park & they have a right to say whatever it is that pops into their head because "teachers get holidays - rabble rabble rabble".

As a matter of interest how do you think the Government should cut costs. I'm genuinely curious as you seem to think pay cuts to its employees aren't the way to go.

Catari Jaguar

hamsterboy wrote: »

Thing is I have always ENJOYED working with technology..... how many people choose teaching as a profession because they like doing it.... easy.... NONE.... cos none of them have ever done it..... unless you count babysitting.
Most just see the salary (as shown above) and holidays, not to mention the increments (though they may be gone now I admit)

I wanted to teach since I was 5 years old.

I spent my 4th year work experience with my old junior infants teacher. I even went back every day of June to help out when I was on my summer holidays.

My LC was geared towards getting the points for teaching college. I put 3 teaching colleges down as my CAO choices.

I got such a hard time in teaching college from staff and I had to take a year out. In this year out I looked at other options, and filled in a back up CAO form. I did everything I could to ensure I would be going back to college (art classes, drama classes, TEFL course, working with kids). I even had to change my whole demeanour & appearance to "fit" with what a teacher is in their mind. (This is not uncommon)

A teacher has quoted back to me that I told her in my first year out "I can't believe I get paid for this". And that was in a year with a really ****ty inspector that made me feel like the worst teacher in the world and made me want to quit the profession.

My salary is nothing special (not with my pay cuts). I know I'll never have a huge house, fancy wedding and new car. I don't have much job advancement to try for. We've been frozen anyways. So even though I'm going back to college part time now to do my higher degree, I won't be going up on the pay scale.

Catari Jaguar

Strata wrote: »

cherub rock wrote: »

As a matter of interest how do you think the Government should cut costs. I'm genuinely curious as you seem to think pay cuts to its employees aren't the way to go.

School policy determines what happens in that particular school. Everything from the homework, to the lunches, to the parental involvement, discipline, uniform, break times, school books and programs e.g. (one school has Maths Recovery one doesn't) My inspector made us change our break timetables (even though we have a shared school yard!) Clueless bitch.

Better value for money?! We've been cut and frozen. What more do you want? Money shouldn't be taken out of the public sector because the govt ****ed up. Take the money from the embezzelors and corrupt politicians. Look to the bankers & the builders. Take back their property and jail those responsible. Look to the fat cats at the top, not the workers at the bottom. Jesus even in RTE, Ryan Tubridy & Pat Kenny get huge salaries. How can cutting education and health do any good for ANYTHING?

Do you HONESTLY think that me doing summer camps and correcting exams is gonna get us out of this reccession?!

South Dublin council just spent €170,000 on a bus stop. Try looking elsewhere for solutions.

Catari Jaguar

hamsterboy wrote: »

Not sure what you're asking there
I went straight into an M.Sc. after my degree.
It's was only partially funded so I had to take on some hours in a call centre...... that was fun

Also, asking what I earn???? 37K in my present job after 3 years here.... not that it's any of your business.
How much do YOU earn?????

HB

So you got funded time off for your degree AND you earn more than a teacher with the same experience. What was your problem again?!

Stark

A full time teacher with a masters and 3 years experience earns a lot more than 37k.

Strata

cherub rock wrote: »

So you got funded time off for your degree AND you earn more than a teacher with the same experience. What was your problem again?!

Third level education is free in this country. Did you have to pay for your degree?

spurious

Strata wrote: »

Third level education is free in this country. Did you have to pay for your degree?

You must be young.
'Twas not always so.

hamsterboy

Still haven't answered me re: YOUR salary.......fair is fair... I gave mine
Don't forget to include time off.... I get 21 days......YOU???


HB

hamsterboy

cherub rock wrote: »

Add yard duty €700

Sorry now and excuse my ignorance but what is that??
How can you claim €700 a year (well much less than a year actually :P) for standing in a yard????

Laughable....

HB

Stark

cherub rock wrote: »

Basic Pay scale level 7? = €37,929

Academic qualification (masters 1st/2nd hons) = €5496

= €43425

Pay cut of roughly 25% = €10 856

Add yard duty €700

Total = €33 269

That pay cut of 25% is a lie.

Basic pay scale following paycut: €37,929
Academic qualification following paycut: €5,496
Yard duty: €700

Total = €44,125

I took those figures from your union's website:
You can subtract pension levy if you will although most private sector workers have to make their own pension contributions anyway so there's not much point in taking it into account.

I'm not begrudging because it is possible to earn that kind of money in the private sector if you play your cards right but where are you getting that 25% paycut figure from?

Also, your statement that your pay has been frozen and you won't be moving up the scale seems to be a lie also as public servants are still receiving their increments.

Catari Jaguar

Sorry after 3 years you'd only be on pay scale 4 (can another teacher clear this up?)

Stark wrote: »

A full time teacher with a masters and 3 years experience earns a lot more than 37k.

Basic Pay scale level 4 = €34,113

Academic qualification (masters 1st/2nd hons) = €5496

= €39, 609

Pay cut of roughly 25% = €9902

Add yard duty €700

Total = €30, 407

Stark

Rather than repeat information which blatantly contradicts the information given by your own union, maybe you can clarify where this 25% paycut on top of the standard public service paycuts comes from?

cherub_rock wrote:

Sorry after 3 years you'd only be on pay scale 4 (can another teacher clear this up?)

Teachers with degrees start at point 3 on the scale.

Doc

hamsterboy wrote: »

Sorry now and excuse my ignorance but what is that??
How can you claim €700 a year (well much less than a year actually :P) for standing in a yard????

Laughable....

HB

Do you supervise people on your lunch brake? Laughable...

hamsterboy

Can't call it you lunch break if you're getting paid for it... standing in a yard or not.
I dont get paid for my lunchbreak... few people do.....


HB

Catari Jaguar

Stark wrote: »

That pay cut of 25% is a lie.

If you say so

Strata

Doc wrote: »

Do you supervise people on your lunch brake? Laughable...

You really think a teacher should be paid extra for this? Really?

And on a slightly different note but still OT I think: Teachers get three days paid leave if they get married during school term?

Christ on a Bike it's worse I'm hearing!

Source: http://www.into.ie/NI/Teachers/LeaveofAbsence/BriefAbsences/

Catari Jaguar

Strata wrote: »

You really think a teacher should be paid extra for this? Really?

And on a slightly different note but still OT I think: Teachers get three days paid leave if they get married during school term?

Christ on a Bike it's worse I'm hearing!

Source: http://www.into.ie/NI/Teachers/LeaveofAbsence/BriefAbsences/

You do realise it's not standing in a yard, it's a yard full of children and you miss your lunch break. You get taxed about 2/3 of yard duty anyways.

It's SEVEN consectutive. Hah!

Strata

cherub rock wrote: »

You do realise it's not standing in a yard, it's a yard full of children and you miss your lunch break. You get taxed about 2/3 of yard duty anyways.

So it's standing in a yard full of children then? Ah, I see, that makes it much more difficult.

It's SEVEN consectutive. Hah!

Seven days if you get married? Are you for real? Does that depend on the school?

Catari Jaguar

Strata wrote: »

Seven days if you get married? Are you for real? Does that depend on the school?

Blame DeV

Ollchailin

I had said before on this thread that I wasn't going to post again, but I've been keeping an eye on it nonetheless and I'm so sick of hearing the crap that's coming from both sides.

There are valid points being made by everyone, but the amount of people here who don't have a clue of the facts is astounding. I understand that fora like boards are here for people to air their concerns and discuss them. But I would ask that people refrain from making big sweeping statements without the facts to back them up.

Here's the situation: As regards wages- I think in fairness people have to realise that teachers are hardly rolling in the big bucks. As I said before, it's a decent wage, but given the cuts that are now in place- I don't think people can complain about this area too much.

As regards value for this money (which basically is the crux of most people's issues I think, and it's fair enough)- aside from the fact that there may have been teachers in your past (or at present teaching your children) who are not pulling their weight- can those complaining about teachers honestly hand on heart say that we have a poor standard of education in this country? Can you honestly say that it is completely flawed/corrupt/ineffective? I do believe personally that if there was a better system of inspection in this country, there would be less of a chance that there would be, teachers who do not give value for money- and THIS I believe, is where the problem lies in our education system. However- this is not just a problem in teaching: I am aware of many people working in the private sector who spend their day on the internet instead of working. Accountability is a problem all over this country.

And hamsterboy- I don't know how familiar you are with the actual figures of teachers wages but it can be found here: http://www.asti.ie/pay-and-conditions/pay/salary-scale/ and on many other sites. Your 37,000 is fairly on a par with a teacher who is qualified for 3 years... and that'd only be if that teacher had full teaching hours, which many (including myself) don't. (Bear in mind this page shows the cuts that were made- I'm not complaining or saying they weren't necessary-because I believe they were- but they were made & people seem to forget this).

Anyway, I'm not here to argue: my point is that honestly, if us teachers did an extra few weeks attending courses & doing the other things people suggested- I feel that this would merely serve to get people off our backs as opposed to achieving anything educationally. Maybe it'd be worth it for that in itself. But I believe we have a good education system in this country, and perhaps with a few changes, it could be really great. It just seems that people who don't understand how the system works think that cutting our holidays & cutting our pay are the answers, when they are not. Personally, I believe major work needs to be done in the area of discipline in order to increase the effectiveness of teaching. But that wouldn't be noticed by people, whereas us being in school/on courses in July would- and hey, so long as people see we're not on holidays, surely that's enough, eh...

Good luck everyone arguing this one, it's been done to death...

hamsterboy

"Attendance at Graduation Ceremony involving teacher or near relative. - 1 days leave with pay, but where extensive travel is involved up to 2 days may be granted."

Anyone else find that (and some others) totally messed up?

HB

Unwilling

I don't believe the teachers should gain time off during the school year if they part take of a course during the holidays.
In other disciplines you can also improve your skillset doing courses, but in most cases they are at your own expense. The upside being that hopefully going forward you would be compensated in your payscale,bonus or career path for having improved yourself.
I know in my job if I need to take a day or two off for a course - - TOUGH _ _ it's out of my holidays. Unless the BUSINESS are paying for it and SENDING me on the course.

parker kent

hamsterboy wrote: »

Also another thing that has also puzzled me about teaching in Ireland.
How feckin easy it is to get into.
Not that I'd be interested in it....
Do an "Arts Degree" and learn about all different types of useless stuff that will in no way aid you in a future career as a teacher.
Next...... apply to Mary Immaculate.... or where ever.
If you don;t get in, do the online course on the web.....
BANG
Guess what??
You're useless ass is now a teacher.
Now go start planning your long summer months off!!

Funny, I've have a B.Sc and an M.Sc, both directly connected with the job I do (I.T.) and yet these wasters are getting paid more than me with a ton of benefits and loads of paid time off...... something's really wrong with this picture.

HB

Getting a hDip is not easy. You honestly have not got a clue about how most people become teachers. Then also factor in the undergrads doing primary teaching and the relatively high CAO points required to get into those courses in St.Pats etc. Certainly higher than science or other similar courses. It requires hard work to get those points and get into the course.

Given the amount of properly trained teachers, online courses are not going to preferred to those with a hDip. Then add in the year or two spent subbing trying to build up experience to get the necessary points to qualify for a hDip. People with 1st class honours degrees can often be turned (I know one girl with a first in maths and economics in UCD who had such an experience)

Do you actually know anybody that has become a teacher recently? It is not all rosy in the garden.

Edit: You also show zero knowledge of arts degrees

Catari Jaguar

hamsterboy wrote: »

"Attendance at Graduation Ceremony involving teacher or near relative. - 1 days leave with pay, but where extensive travel is involved up to 2 days may be granted."

Anyone else find that (and some others) totally messed up?

HB

How else are you meant to receive your own degree? You start to teach in Sept, your grad is in November. I didn't know I could go to relatives grads though. Sweet!

onlyrocknroll

pablo_escobar wrote: »

Majority of teachers in Ireland provide a mediocre standard of education and are grossly overpaid for it.

Their sincerity in teaching lacks credibility and it's really benefits and salary of the job which are of higher priority to them.

I'd put a reasonable offer on the table to each teacher in this country with the clear understanding if it wasn't satisfactory, feel free moving to another country.

bon voyage!

Whatever job you do, you do it very badly. You are unprofessional and apathetic. Your commitment is questionable and other people in other countries can do you job far better then you.

I have no way to substantiate any of these claims and I know nothing about your profession, but I can still confidently assert the above as if my word has God given authority.
If you have any grievances in your workplace you should simply leave Ireland forever.
Bon voyage.

Seriously though, as a newly qualified teacher I do agree that sometimes teachers defend the indefensible. Course days are obviously unfair, teachers should do these courses out of a sense of professionalism and a desire to further their careers, not for more time off when we already have plenty.

It's not an easy job, and the the stupid bland criticism we receive is usually way off mark, but more time off is clearly not something we should be pushing for. In my experience most teachers are very motivated and would do these courses without the incentive.

Strata

Ollchailin wrote: »

I had said before on this thread that I wasn't going to post again, but I've been keeping an eye on it nonetheless and I'm so sick of hearing the crap that's coming from both sides.

There are valid points being made by everyone, but the amount of people here who don't have a clue of the facts is astounding. I understand that fora like boards are here for people to air their concerns and discuss them. But I would ask that people refrain from making big sweeping statements without the facts to back them up.

Here's the situation: As regards wages- I think in fairness people have to realise that teachers are hardly rolling in the big bucks. As I said before, it's a decent wage, but given the cuts that are now in place- I don't think people can complain about this area too much.

As regards value for this money (which basically is the crux of most people's issues I think, and it's fair enough)- aside from the fact that there may have been teachers in your past (or at present teaching your children) who are not pulling their weight- can those complaining about teachers honestly hand on heart say that we have a poor standard of education in this country? Can you honestly say that it is completely flawed/corrupt/ineffective? I do believe personally that if there was a better system of inspection in this country, there would be less of a chance that there would be, teachers who do not give value for money- and THIS I believe, is where the problem lies in our education system. However- this is not just a problem in teaching: I am aware of many people working in the private sector who spend their day on the internet instead of working. Accountability is a problem all over this country.

And hamsterboy- I don't know how familiar you are with the actual figures of teachers wages but it can be found here: http://www.asti.ie/pay-and-conditions/pay/salary-scale/ and on many other sites. Your 37,000 is fairly on a par with a teacher who is qualified for 3 years... and that'd only be if that teacher had full teaching hours, which many (including myself) don't. (Bear in mind this page shows the cuts that were made- I'm not complaining or saying they weren't necessary-because I believe they were- but they were made & people seem to forget this).

Anyway, I'm not here to argue: my point is that honestly, if us teachers did an extra few weeks attending courses & doing the other things people suggested- I feel that this would merely serve to get people off our backs as opposed to achieving anything educationally. Maybe it'd be worth it for that in itself. But I believe we have a good education system in this country, and perhaps with a few changes, it could be really great. It just seems that people who don't understand how the system works think that cutting our holidays & cutting our pay are the answers, when they are not. Personally, I believe major work needs to be done in the area of discipline in order to increase the effectiveness of teaching. But that wouldn't be noticed by people, whereas us being in school/on courses in July would- and hey, so long as people see we're not on holidays, surely that's enough, eh...

Good luck everyone arguing this one, it's been done to death...

Ollchailin, I appreciate your post and think it is very fair and honest.

I do not have a personal grudge against teachers and, as I've said before I don't believe all teachers to be lazy and useless.

My main point is that something can always be improved. For eg as you suggest: a better system of inspection.

And no I don't want teachers to be working during the holidays just for the sake of it, but maybe there is an option to shorten holidays for students. School Holidays in Ireland are one of the highest when compared to other countries.

Finally, I'm not suggesting that just teachers have their pay cut but the government really does not have any money and have to get money from somewhere, be that right or wrong.

Catari Jaguar

Strata wrote: »

Ollchailin, I appreciate your post and think it is very fair and honest.

I do not have a personal grudge against teachers and, as I've said before I don't believe all teachers to be lazy and useless.

My main point is that something can always be improved. For eg as you suggest: a better system of inspection.

And no I don't want teachers to be working during the holidays just for the sake of it, but maybe there is an option to shorten holidays for students. School Holidays in Ireland are one of the highest when compared to other countries.

Finally, I'm not suggesting that just teachers have their pay cut but the government really does not have any money and have to get money from somewhere, be that right or wrong.

Hahah! What are you like?

You wrote all over my posts that teachers wages should be cut just like any other public service because "our employers can't afford to pay us" And if we don't like it, then undergrads can have our jobs.

You also completely went against my points on inspections claiming that inspectors are qualified and better at judging that the school community itself. You also seem to think that teachers should be ok with surprise inspections.

Make up your mind

hamsterboy

parker kent wrote: »

Do you actually know anybody that has become a teacher recently? It is not all rosy in the garden.

Yeah I do actually.
One girl in particular has been repeating a mantra as long as I know her....and if I were to repeat it every teacher on this thread would hunt me down and do horrible things to me....suffice to say it refers to long holidays and a lack of interest in the students. Thing is she can fake interest in the kids so well it's scary.
Not sayin all teachers are like this now but this one isolated case is scary. She is
considered a dedicated teacher by her colleagues etc.. but behind closed doors she openly admits to friends that she hates her pupils and the only reason she does the job is cos it's easy to fake success, as well as long holidays and perks..
Let me clarify though, I TRULY BELIEVE NOT ALL TEACHERS ARE LIKE THIS ONE.

HB

Stark

cherub rock wrote: »

You wrote all over my posts that teachers wages should be cut just like any other public service because "our employers can't afford to pay us" And if we don't like it, then undergrads can have our jobs.

Should teachers be treated differently to other public servants?

parker kent

hamsterboy wrote: »

Yeah I do actually.
One girl in particular has been repeating a mantra as long as I know her....and if I were to repeat it every teacher on this thread would hunt me down and do horrible things to me....suffice to say it refers to long holidays and a lack of interest in the students. Thing is she can fake interest in the kids so well it's scary.
Not sayin all teachers are like this now but this one isolated case is scary. She is
considered a dedicated teacher by her colleagues etc.. but behind closed doors she openly admits to friends that she hates her pupils and the only reason she does the job is cos it's easy to fake success, as well as long holidays and perks..
Let me clarify though, I TRULY BELIEVE NOT ALL TEACHERS ARE LIKE THIS ONE.

HB

Regardless of an apathetic friend that you may have, your post still showed no knowledge of what newly qualified or hopeful applicants go through. Just doing an online course is not going to get very many people employed in schools given the amount of people with hDips who are struggling to get hours.

Even a line such as calling an arts degree as being about "useless stuff" shows very little knowledge.

Strata

cherub rock wrote: »

Hahah! What are you like?

You wrote all over my posts that teachers wages should be cut just like any other public service because "our employers can't afford to pay us" And if we don't like it, then undergrads can have our jobs.

I'm still saying that:

"Finally, I'm not suggesting that just teachers have their pay cut but the government really does not have any money and have to get money from somewhere, be that right or wrong."

You also completely went against my points on inspections claiming that inspectors are qualified and better at judging that the school community itself. You also seem to think that teachers should be ok with surprise inspections.

Again, I'm still saying that:

"My main point is that something can always be improved. For eg as you suggest: a better system of inspection."

Make up your mind

Le sigh!

poodles

funkyjebus wrote: »

didnt bother reading all of the posts, but the op should do some fact searching. teacher have to pay for this course themselves (circa 400) and the 3 days off are unpaid. so teacher shouldnt have the right to taka a day off for somethong like a sibling wedding, etc. you sir are cleary jealous.

Circa €400?

Like you said you didn't bother reading the posts so you shouldn't bother commenting, thanks.

McNulty737

Nobody is saying that teaching a class full of students is an easy job, I have no doubt what so ever that at times it is very stressful for all teachers.

However - Irish teachers are amongst the highest paid in the world, and considering the huge amount of holidays received, I would expect all teachers to accept that stress is a part of the job and it is something you have to deal with - you have plenty of time to relax and recover during your holidays.

My job can also be very stressful at times, and carries a huge amount of responsibility - however I receive none of the mostly ridiculous allowances as highlighted by INTO here: http://www.into.ie/NI/Teachers/LeaveofAbsence/BriefAbsences/ or anything remotely resembling that kind of leave.

The differance is that i work for a company which relies on making profit to survive, whereas all allowances given to teachers are paid for directly out of the taxpayers pockets and have been granted by irresponsible politicians working directly with union bosses for the benefit of one small group of privileged professionals over the past decade.

No one is saying that teachers should work for 20k a year, or work during the summer etc....but sadly giving the economic reality we find ourselves in, it is time that alot of these allowances and excessive pay rates are brought back down to levels equivalent to those of other eu countries.

Bill-e

I've a few teacher friends. They're all in Thailand or OZ or fapping around at home sitting near by their laptops in case the session times out while they are doing these so called on-line courses. :rolleyes: They always agree with me that they have it pretty damn good.

I was talking to one of them a few weeks back and she was stressed out because she had to choose between glitter and cotton balls or something like that... While I was freaked out of my mind cause I hadn't been paid in 2 months, my company was struggling big time and I've to work 10 hour days and weekend just to keep the show on the road. I really think they should have to do some form of work during the summer. The summer camp thing would be a great one.

Also, is it true that teachers that are going for kids aim for some time in July/August? So that they get something like over a year off in total for maternity? I'd love to see some stats on the birth dates of teachers children. Can someone ask the CSO for this?

Strata

cherub rock wrote: »

Hahah! What are you like?

You wrote all over my posts that teachers wages should be cut just like any other public service because "our employers can't afford to pay us" And if we don't like it, then undergrads can have our jobs.

You also completely went against my points on inspections claiming that inspectors are qualified and better at judging that the school community itself. You also seem to think that teachers should be ok with surprise inspections.

Make up your mind

I also did not say that undergraduates can have your jobs. I said graduate teachers who have been unable to find work.

Catari Jaguar

Stark wrote: »

Should teachers be treated differently to other public servants?

[sarcasm] Yes, That's EXACTLY what I'm saying! Great pick up there. :rolleyes: [/sarcasm] I've already stated my opinion on it

We've been cut and we've been frozen already and have signed the Croke Park agreement so the perks will be going and the workload will be higher.

Teachers are getting hung, drawn and quartered. The changes that you want are going to be in effect come september! What more do you want? Not that I see how it will affect you in any way (apart from a come-uppance smugness)

It's a case now of the pitchfork brigade minding their business and backing the **** off with their criticisms and incorrect information.

Go find the REAL people at fault and the people that actually have the money and can get us out of this mess.

Clue: It ain't the public sector.

You're just going in circles ain't ya?!

spurious

Bill-e wrote: »

Also, is it true that teachers that are going for kids aim for some time in July/August? So that they get something like over a year off in total for maternity? I'd love to see some stats on the birth dates of teachers children. Can someone ask the CSO for this?

You could, I suppose.

Il Trap

hamsterboy wrote: »

Woah... Typical.
Least we know what is uppermost in prospective teacher's minds going through college.
I knew what my salary would be (cept for the bloody income levy pushed on everyone but thats another rant )
Thing is I have always ENJOYED working with technology..... how many people choose teaching as a profession because they like doing it.... easy.... NONE.... cos none of them have ever done it..... unless you count babysitting.
Most just see the salary (as shown above) and holidays, not to mention the increments (though they may be gone now I admit)


Now now, could it be I'm being talked down to by a teacher..... well it's not the first time I guess, but I don't see the need for personal attacks. I'm as entitled to my opinion as you are.

HB

My post was NOT intended as a personal attack, only to draw attention to the ignorance of your previous post where you completely dismissed all Arts degrees as useless. I don't teach for the holidays, although it would be stupid to suggest that they were not a wonderful bonus. As I also stated in a previous post, I do not intend to remain a secondary teacher despite the fact that the pay is decent and holidays fantastic. I am pursuing a different career path for reasons that have nothing to do with finance. For the record, I thorougly enjoy the 'teaching' part of my job.
You my friend do not understand what a teacher's job entails. You have no comprehension of the responsibility entrusted to teachers plus the varying roles that they play throughout the day. Its not all about sitting in a classroom or doing corrections. I will totally agree that there are a certain amount of wasters in the profession and also those with notions way above their station. However to tar the majority of teachers with the same brush is ludicrous. I would love to see some posters on this thread stand in front of a class of nutjob second or third years on a Friday afternoon.