Are teachers taking the p!ss?

Strata

cherub rock wrote: »

Yes, That's EXACTLY what I'm saying! Great pick up there. :rolleyes: I've already stated my opinion on it here

We've been cut and we've been frozen already and have signed the Croke Park agreement so the perks will be going and the workload will be higher.

Teachers are getting hung, drawn and quartered. The effects that you want Aare gonan be effective come september! What more do you want? Not that I see how it will effect you in any way (apart from a come-uppance smugness)

It's a case now of the pitchfork brigade minding their business and backing the **** off with their criticisms and incorrect information.

Go find the REAL people at fault and the people that actually have the money and can get us out of this mess.

Clue: It ain't the public sector.

You're just going in circles ain't ya?!

So you think that a nurse for instance, or a Guard should get a pay cut but teachers shouldn't?

Catari Jaguar

Strata wrote: »

So you think that a nurse for instance, or a Guard should get a pay cut but teachers shouldn't?

Where did I say that?

Find it please.

Catari Jaguar

Strata wrote: »

So you think that a nurse for instance, or a Guard should get a pay cut but teachers shouldn't?

cherub rock wrote: »

Better value for money?! We've been cut and frozen. What more do you want? Money shouldn't be taken out of the public sector because the govt ****ed up. Take the money from the embezzelors and corrupt politicians. Look to the bankers & the builders. Take back their property and jail those responsible. Look to the fat cats at the top, not the workers at the bottom. Jesus even in RTE, Ryan Tubridy & Pat Kenny get huge salaries. How can cutting education and health do any good for ANYTHING?

Do you HONESTLY think that me doing summer camps and correcting exams is gonna get us out of this reccession?!

South Dublin council just spent €170,000 on a bus stop. Try looking elsewhere for solutions.

Yes I can clearly see where you got that from :rolleyes:

Strata

cherub rock wrote: »

Yes, That's EXACTLY what I'm saying! Great pick up there. :rolleyes: I've already stated my opinion on it

We've been cut and we've been frozen already and have signed the Croke Park agreement so the perks will be going and the workload will be higher.

Teachers are getting hung, drawn and quartered. The changes that you want are going to be in effect come september! What more do you want? Not that I see how it will affect you in any way (apart from a come-uppance smugness)

It's a case now of the pitchfork brigade minding their business and backing the **** off with their criticisms and incorrect information.

Go find the REAL people at fault and the people that actually have the money and can get us out of this mess.

Clue: It ain't the public sector.

You're just going in circles ain't ya?!

cherub rock wrote: »

Where did I say that?

Find it please.

Stark asked: Should teachers be treated differently to other public servants?

And I've highlighted your answer in the first sentence (above).

Stark

cherub rock wrote: »

Yes, That's EXACTLY what I'm saying! Great pick up there. :rolleyes: I've already stated my opinion on it here

We've been cut and we've been frozen already and have signed the Croke Park agreement so the perks will be going and the workload will be higher.

Teachers are getting hung, drawn and quartered. The changes that you want are going to be in effect come september! What more do you want? Not that I see how it will affect you in any way (apart from a come-uppance smugness)

It's a case now of the pitchfork brigade minding their business and backing the **** off with their criticisms and incorrect information.

Go find the REAL people at fault and the people that actually have the money and can get us out of this mess.

Clue: It ain't the public sector.

You're just going in circles ain't ya?!

I'm not out for anyone's blood but when you come out with hyperbole like 25% paycuts on top of the standard public service cuts, and "hung, drawn and quartered", I am going to call you up on it. I have sympathy for people who are demotivated by having their pay cut twice in the space of the year, but I'm not going to be moved by fictional sob stories.

You haven't been frozen, you'll still get your increments. You won't be getting extra payrises on top of your increments, but given that those were meant to link your salary to the CPI, which is dropping, you're doing well to be frozen on that count.

Catari Jaguar

Strata wrote: »

I also did not say that undergraduates can have your jobs. I said graduate teachers who have been unable to find work.

But you disagree with "unqualified teachers being let loose on a class" :rolleyes:

McNulty737

cherub rock wrote: »

It's a case now of the pitchfork brigade minding their business and backing the **** off with their criticisms and incorrect information.

Go find the REAL people at fault and the people that actually have the money and can get us out of this mess.

Clue: It ain't the public sector.

You're just going in circles ain't ya?!

The taxpayer (in your opinion the 'pitchfork brigade'), are the people who pay your generous salary and pension, aswell as your countless 'perks'. Therefore we are 'minding our business' when we question your terms and conditions, because personally i would rather my tax be used for more important things than bloated public sector salaries, such as infrastructure etc.

The union bosses are part of the circle of REAL people who are at fault for our current predicament, for it is they who have driven the rise in government expenditure to such a level that we are borrowing 20 billion a year to pay your salaries.

Tipp Man

Are people finally waking up to the reality that teachers (and PS in general) are the new royalty in this country? About bloody time if we are

Catari Jaguar

Stark wrote: »

I'm not out for anyone's blood but when you come out with hyperbole like 25% paycuts on top of the standard public service cuts, and "hung, drawn and quartered", I am going to call you up on it. I have sympathy for people who are demotivated by having their pay cut twice in the space of the year, but I'm not going to be moved by fictional sob stories.

You haven't been frozen, you'll still get your increments. You won't be getting extra payrises on top of your increments, but given that those were meant to link your salary to the CPI, which is dropping, you're doing well to be frozen on that count.

Do you ever think that I might be talking about public opinion. Attitudes in threads like this are definitely the worst part of my job.

Strata

cherub rock wrote: »

But you disagree with "unqualified teachers being let loose on a class" :rolleyes:

Yes, thats my qualified graduate teachers can take your place.

Catari Jaguar

Strata wrote: »

Stark asked: Should teachers be treated differently to other public servants?

And I've highlighted your answer in the first sentence (above).

Do I actually have to write [/sacrasm] on my posts?! Are you purposely being annoying?

ixoy

cherub rock wrote: »

Do you ever think that I might be talking about public opinion. Attitudes in threads like this are definitely the worst part of my job.

Public opinion though is obviously going to be influenced when people complain about massive pay cuts though when they're actually not too extreme, especially when compared against an initially generous salary.

Strata

cherub rock wrote: »

Do I actually have to write [/sacrasm] on my posts?! Are you purposely being annoying?

That's a bit personal isn't it?

Catari Jaguar

Strata wrote: »

That's a bit personal isn't it?

No, you've obviously been trolling every response I make. This is just more of the same.

Catari Jaguar

Tipp Man wrote: »

Are people finally waking up to the reality that teachers (and PS in general) are the new royalty in this country? About bloody time if we are

I think you're mistaken. It's publicans, builders, bankers, solicitors, doctors and politicians, and anyone that lives in D4 or as been in VIP magazine.

Strata

cherub rock wrote: »

No, you've obviously been trolling every response I make. This is just more of the same.

I was actually just having a discussion with you on something we both disagree on.

I apologise if you didn't see this and my opinions caused you offence.

Stark

cherub rock wrote: »

I think you're mistaken. It's publicans, builders, bankers, solicitors, doctors and politicians, and anyone that lives in D4 or as been in VIP magazine.

We've heard the "we didn't cause the recession!" line a million times before. No-one gives a ****.

Catari Jaguar

Stark wrote: »

We've heard the "we didn't cause the recession!" line a million times before. No-one gives a ****.

clearly

ixoy

cherub rock wrote: »

clearly

Clearly because knowing what caused the problem, doesn't solve it. That's what we need to do - solve it. Going "he did it though!" doesn't make it go away. Modifying budgets does help though. Part of that modification is a readjustment of salaries and working conditions, which includes teachers and, for the most part, many of these modifications are actually quite reasonable based on the fact they're working off very good conditions to start with.

astra2000

cherub rock wrote: »

[sarcasm] Yes, That's EXACTLY what I'm saying! Great pick up there. :rolleyes: [/sarcasm] I've already stated my opinion on it



Teachers are getting hung, drawn and quartered. The changes that you want are going to be in effect come september! What more do you want? Not that I see how it will affect you in any way (apart from a come-uppance smugness)

It's a case now of the pitchfork brigade minding their business and backing the **** off with their criticisms and incorrect information.

Go find the REAL people at fault and the people that actually have the money and can get us out of this mess.

Clue: It ain't the public sector.

You're just going in circles ain't ya?!

Cherub rock do you teach drama or was your course this summer in drama by any chance?

nehcola

Instead of complaining on an internet forum about the working conditions of teachers, why not use your energy to improve your own working conditions?

Stark

I'm not complaining about teachers' working conditions. I'm complaining about teachers complaining about their work conditions, especially when those claims are exaggerated beyond the scale. If that makes sense.

Tipp Man

cherub rock wrote: »

I think you're mistaken. It's publicans, builders, bankers, solicitors, doctors and politicians, and anyone that lives in D4 or as been in VIP magazine.

Well lets assess this reasonably shall we. Teachers (secondary in this example) have the following:

1. A maximum of 22 hours teaching per week
2. They work for a maximum of 8 continuous weeks before they get holidays
3. They have about 18 WEEKS holidays a year (yes thats 18 WEEKS not days) Do you actually realise that most people in this country only get 20 DAYS a year not weeks?
4. They are some of the best paid teachers in the world (despite the ridiculously short hours). Do people realise that a married couple who are teachers will be earning between 110-120k by the time they are 35?? Where else in the world does this happen??
5. They get their merit increases regardless of performance each and every year
6. They have a level of job security that is unrivalled anywhere (there have been less than a handful of teachers sacked in this country since the foundation of the state)
7. They have a gold plated Defined Benefit pension which is guaranteed to pay a masive lump sum on retirement on top of the very generous annual pension payment. All of which is guaranteed and will never loose value unlike a defined contribution scheme. If a married couple of teachers retired today they would get a lump sum of nearly 200k (TAX FREE) and an annual pension income of circa 60k)


Now if you can show me 1 profession in this country, the world even, which can come anywhere near to matching the lifestyle that teachers have then lets hear it

So taking all of the above into account the lifestyle that the high salary and low working hours gives teachers makes them the royalty of this country

MagicSean

Tipp Man wrote: »

Well lets assess this reasonably shall we. Teachers (secondary in this example) have the following:

1. A maximum of 22 hours teaching per week
2. They work for a maximum of 8 continuous weeks before they get holidays
3. They have about 18 WEEKS holidays a year (yes thats 18 WEEKS not days) Do you actually realise that most people in this country only get 20 DAYS a year not weeks?
4. They are some of the best paid teachers in the world (despite the ridiculously short hours). Do people realise that a married couple who are teachers will be earning between 110-120k by the time they are 35?? Where else in the world does this happen??
5. They get their merit increases regardless of performance each and every year
6. They have a level of job security that is unrivalled anywhere (there have been less than a handful of teachers sacked in this country since the foundation of the state)
7. They have a gold plated Defined Benefit pension which is guaranteed to pay a masive lump sum on retirement on top of the very generous annual pension payment. All of which is guaranteed and will never loose value unlike a defined contribution scheme. If a married couple of teachers retired today they would get a lump sum of nearly 200k (TAX FREE) and an annual pension income of circa 60k)


Now if you can show me 1 profession in this country, the world even, which can come anywhere near to matching the lifestyle that teachers have then lets hear it

So taking all of the above into account the lifestyle that the high salary and low working hours gives teachers makes them the royalty of this country

Where do you get the maximum of 22 hours a week? Any teacher I know is required to be in school from at least 9 to 3 Monday to Friday. Thats a minimum of 30 hours. And while its true they get the summer off they dont have any choice in picking their holidays. They cant decide to go away for Novemeber and work through June instead. They work when the children need them to. Lets not forget that the standard of parenting in this country has become terrible and teachers have deal with both bad children and bad parents. Personally I dont envy them but if you want to join the royal profession the career path is open to you too.

McNulty737

Tipp Man wrote: »

Well lets assess this reasonably shall we. Teachers (secondary in this example) have the following:

1. A maximum of 22 hours teaching per week
2. They work for a maximum of 8 continuous weeks before they get holidays
3. They have about 18 WEEKS holidays a year (yes thats 18 WEEKS not days) Do you actually realise that most people in this country only get 20 DAYS a year not weeks?
4. They are some of the best paid teachers in the world (despite the ridiculously short hours). Do people realise that a married couple who are teachers will be earning between 110-120k by the time they are 35?? Where else in the world does this happen??
5. They get their merit increases regardless of performance each and every year
6. They have a level of job security that is unrivalled anywhere (there have been less than a handful of teachers sacked in this country since the foundation of the state)
7. They have a gold plated Defined Benefit pension which is guaranteed to pay a masive lump sum on retirement on top of the very generous annual pension payment. All of which is guaranteed and will never loose value unlike a defined contribution scheme. If a married couple of teachers retired today they would get a lump sum of nearly 200k (TAX FREE) and an annual pension income of circa 60k)


Now if you can show me 1 profession in this country, the world even, which can come anywhere near to matching the lifestyle that teachers have then lets hear it

So taking all of the above into account the lifestyle that the high salary and low working hours gives teachers makes them the royalty of this country

BUT THEY DIDNT CAUSE THE CRISIS!!! THE PRIVATE SECTOR DID WAHHHH!!

Tipp Man

k_mac wrote: »

Where do you get the maximum of 22 hours a week? Any teacher I know is required to be in school from at least 9 to 3 Monday to Friday. Thats a minimum of 30 hours. And while its true they get the summer off they dont have any choice in picking their holidays. They cant decide to go away for Novemeber and work through June instead. They work when the children need them to. Lets not forget that the standard of parenting in this country has become terrible and teachers have deal with both bad children and bad parents. Personally I dont envy them but if you want to join the royal profession the career path is open to you too.

The maximum hours that a teacher (secondary as i stated previusly) is contracted to teach is 22 hours, that is the maximum.

You also say they can't pick their holidays (which is true but seriously when you have that many weeks of do you think they should be given the option of chossing? do you honestly see the fact they can't choose as a down point??)
They also have things called personal days which are basically they can take off DURING term time for personal reasons (funerals, wedding etc)

Dealing with parents and kids is part of the bloody job, why would you feel sympathy for them when it is part of the job? There are parts of my job that are difficult and stressful too, we all have stress

Tipp Man

McNulty737 wrote: »

BUT THEY DIDNT CAUSE THE CRISIS!!! THE PRIVATE SECTOR DID WAHHHH!!

I know poor buggers

What they conveniently forget is that we are borrowing in excess of 20bn a year to pay teachers (and other PS obviously)

My problem with teachers is that they have no idea how cushy they have it compared to the real world, like i say they are the royalty of this country

Mike 1972

So how many underperforming teachers have been fired for recently ?

parker kent wrote: »

Teachers have one of the most important jobs in any country

It surely follows that its important someone makes sure theyre actually any good at it.

parker kent wrote: »

Other people can be crap at their job and it makes no real difference to anybody. However, a good or a bad teacher can change somebody's life.

parker kent wrote: »

.I don't really mind teachers getting a few perks if it gets the best people involved in teaching.

But does it ?

parker kent

Mike 1972 wrote: »

So how many underperforming teachers have been fired for recently ?

It surely follows that its important someone makes sure theyre actually any good at it.

But does it ?

What did that extremely selective quoting show?

I stated numerous times throughout that it is an important job, which it obviously is. I have also stated that under-performing teachers is a different issue altogether, which shows I am aware of the need for methods to remove or reprimand poor teaching. But as I say, that is a different topic. It would be extremely difficult to implement.

parker kent wrote: »

The issue of bad teachers is a different topic altogether. And I am hardly saying to throw money at education and you will get the right people. I am just saying that an attractive package can help talented people join the profession.

Edit: I have also answered other similar questions in earlier posts.

Raspberries

hamsterboy wrote: »

Woah... Typical.
Least we know what is uppermost in prospective teacher's minds going through college.
I knew what my salary would be (cept for the bloody income levy pushed on everyone but thats another rant )
Thing is I have always ENJOYED working with technology..... how many people choose teaching as a profession because they like doing it.... easy.... NONE.... cos none of them have ever done it..... unless you count babysitting.
Most just see the salary (as shown above) and holidays, not to mention the increments (though they may be gone now I admit)

I will begin teacher training in October. I did Subbing and observation in two different schools before this to make sure it was something I wanted to do, turns out they were some of the most enjoyable experiences I have had in my working life (I'm only 22 but I have worked with the public for most of that and that was pretty hellish. Children are much easier to deal with in comparison!!).

So while I do have some idea of the pay I am more concerned with finding a job that I will enjoy doing than anything else.

And of course you are entitled to your opinion!

MagicSean

Tipp Man wrote: »

The maximum hours that a teacher (secondary as i stated previusly) is contracted to teach is 22 hours, that is the maximum.

You also say they can't pick their holidays (which is true but seriously when you have that many weeks of do you think they should be given the option of chossing? do you honestly see the fact they can't choose as a down point??)
They also have things called personal days which are basically they can take off DURING term time for personal reasons (funerals, wedding etc)

Dealing with parents and kids is part of the bloody job, why would you feel sympathy for them when it is part of the job? There are parts of my job that are difficult and stressful too, we all have stress

They are required to be in the school and available the rest of the time. Just like a fireman doesn't fight fires all through his shift. Would you suggest firemen be paid on a per fire extinguished basis?

Donkey Oaty

Raspberries wrote: »

I will begin teacher training in October. I did Subbing and observation in two different schools before this to make sure it was something I wanted to do, turns out they were some of the most enjoyable experiences I have had in my working life (I'm only 22 but I have worked with the public for most of that and that was pretty hellish. Children are much easier to deal with in comparison!!).

So while I do have some idea of the pay I am more concerned with finding a job that I will enjoy doing than anything else.

Good luck to you Raspberries - sounds like you have the right attitude.

Herb Powell

Tootle wrote: »

Eh? Loads of professions pay for their own courses. Doctors, Physios, Solicitors to name a few.
And I and others have to miss friends weddings and neighbours funerals as I cant get the time off. It is a fact that teachers holidays are too long and working days too short when compared with other EU countries.

eh, that's more subjective really, but I get ya. but how long do you expect teachers to work? I mean, children wouldn't last a 10 hour day for example!
tbh though, I hate seeing this argument over teachers. It depresses me for some reason. It seems like most people just want them there as free childcare, do all the parenting, etc. hmmmm. IMO, it's a job, like other jobs has it's benefits (long holidays, decent pay), but with the talk of some people it just seems it's a case of "they shouldn't get that, I don't get that, it's not fair". That kind of ****e just really depresses me for some reason, I don't even know why. people complain. That's all I'm gonna say really, unless someone posts an offensive reply lookin for a fight:D

Tootle

Herb Powell wrote: »

eh, that's more subjective really, but I get ya. but how long do you expect teachers to work? I mean, children wouldn't last a 10 hour day for example!
tbh though, I hate seeing this argument over teachers. It depresses me for some reason. It seems like most people just want them there as free childcare, do all the parenting, etc. hmmmm. IMO, it's a job, like other jobs has it's benefits (long holidays, decent pay), but with the talk of some people it just seems it's a case of "they shouldn't get that, I don't get that, it's not fair". That kind of ****e just really depresses me for some reason, I don't even know why. people complain. That's all I'm gonna say really, unless someone posts an offensive reply lookin for a fight:D

I wont fight ya Herb;) I agree, I dont like Teacher bashing. I dont like any bashing actually.
The phrase you highlighted is not subjective its based on OECD averages so although I dont have the direct reference I'm fairly confident that what I've stated is fact (ok I accept the 'too long' bit being subjective:rolleyes:). Anyway nit picking aside, its not that I begrudge Teachers their holidays. If I wanted those holidays I would have been a teacher, but not for all the pay in the world would I be a secondary school teacher. My point is only that complaining about having to pay for a course as part of your professional development isn't really anything to moan about.

Scráib

Funny, there are three teachers in my immediate family: secondary, primary and my Mam, until she retired, was a principal. Most of their friends are teachers, and I know loads of teachers myself, but I went into the private sector so I think I see both sides of the coin pretty clearly.

It's true that on paper teachers work some really short days. However I've seen that the day will officially end at say 3.00 and Teachers will take loads home with them to do: lesson plans, corrections, test preparations etc. In fact Teachers as a group will take more work home with them than almost any other profession. Whenever there's a two week break most of it is spent doing corrections and the like.

As for their pay I saw my Mam's salary cheque years back, and where she earned say 800 about 420 of that went to tax, they pay loads of it.

Then you have the job itself. Not many people realize this but when you're the only adult in a roomful of kids it's a very lonely job, and also pretty stressful. Try teaching a 13-year old who's just starting puberty and thinks he's the bees knees. Then fill a room with 21 of him. That's not easy, I tried. Had to restrain myself from strangling the little bastard if I'm honest!

Then you have the parents. You've no idea how much parents stress teachers out. Parents are essentially blind when it comes to kids. Their darling Jane who could never put a foot wrong is in reality usually a stuck up little b!tch. Of course the teachers can't say this straight, and if they did the parents would erupt. There are lines in a school where parents aren't supposed to cross because crossing that undermines the teacher. Parents regularly ignore this line.

Then there's the benefits: Long holidays and a secure job. In the private sector we don't have the long holidays, and that is a major plus to teaching. Teachers seem to spend an inordinate amount of time waiting for the next holiday. Personally I resent that a bit. Also their jobs are more secure, private sector jobs aren't but to be fair we pay less tax and on average we get paid more.

At the end of the say do they have it cushy? Personally I don't think so, when teachers work it's a mightily stressful job, and a lot of the time they go home to eat dinner, do corrections and then go to bed. Great, they have a pension. They don't see that until they retire, until then it's heavy taxation all the way. The only thing I begrudge them as a group is that the summer break seems excessive, and they never stop bitching about when the next holiday is coming.

At the end of the day you could never force me into that job!

CoalBucket

starbelgrade wrote: »

Not all day. Just evenings mostly.

Add this link to your comments

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQZi7tmWhR4

blogga

ixoy wrote: »

Clearly because knowing what caused the problem, doesn't solve it. That's what we need to do - solve it. Going "he did it though!" doesn't make it go away. Modifying budgets does help though. Part of that modification is a readjustment of salaries and working conditions, which includes teachers and, for the most part, many of these modifications are actually quite reasonable based on the fact they're working off very good conditions to start with.

Clearly knowing the cause of certain problems means you can solve them: changing a light bulb to be simplistic, for example. In the case of the economy, knowing that the crash was caused by corruption, gombeenism stupidity, reckless lending, absence of regulation, political opportunism and so on cannot undo the damage. It can point out that the country should avoid these practices in the future. But the country endorsed these values repeatedly which leads me to the conclusion that at the earliest opportunity we will revert to type. The public service has been made a target; the only real talent the fools in charge of us have is their understanding of how limited the public is in its ability to process reality. Create enough of a diversion and the confusion will mean some of them will live to screw us another day. Divide and conquer.

Liam_Flag

Scráib wrote: »

It's true that on paper teachers work some really short days. However I've seen that the day will officially end at say 3.00 and Teachers will take loads home with them to do: lesson plans, corrections, test preparations etc. In fact Teachers as a group will take more work home with them than almost any other profession. Whenever there's a two week break most of it is spent doing corrections and the like.

I LOL'd

Liam_Flag

Anyway, it's a know fact that when teachers get time off they go up the north to go shopping. It was on TV

ascanbe

Scráib wrote: »

Funny, there are three teachers in my immediate family: secondary, primary and my Mam, until she retired, was a principal. Most of their friends are teachers, and I know loads of teachers myself, but I went into the private sector so I think I see both sides of the coin pretty clearly.

It's true that on paper teachers work some really short days. However I've seen that the day will officially end at say 3.00 and Teachers will take loads home with them to do: lesson plans, corrections, test preparations etc. In fact Teachers as a group will take more work home with them than almost any other profession. Whenever there's a two week break most of it is spent doing corrections and the like.

As for their pay I saw my Mam's salary cheque years back, and where she earned say 800 about 420 of that went to tax, they pay loads of it.

Then you have the job itself. Not many people realize this but when you're the only adult in a roomful of kids it's a very lonely job, and also pretty stressful. Try teaching a 13-year old who's just starting puberty and thinks he's the bees knees. Then fill a room with 21 of him. That's not easy, I tried. Had to restrain myself from strangling the little bastard if I'm honest!

Then you have the parents. You've no idea how much parents stress teachers out. Parents are essentially blind when it comes to kids. Their darling Jane who could never put a foot wrong is in reality usually a stuck up little b!tch. Of course the teachers can't say this straight, and if they did the parents would erupt. There are lines in a school where parents aren't supposed to cross because crossing that undermines the teacher. Parents regularly ignore this line.

Then there's the benefits: Long holidays and a secure job. In the private sector we don't have the long holidays, and that is a major plus to teaching. Teachers seem to spend an inordinate amount of time waiting for the next holiday. Personally I resent that a bit. Also their jobs are more secure, private sector jobs aren't but to be fair we pay less tax and on average we get paid more.

At the end of the say do they have it cushy? Personally I don't think so, when teachers work it's a mightily stressful job, and a lot of the time they go home to eat dinner, do corrections and then go to bed. Great, they have a pension. They don't see that until they retire, until then it's heavy taxation all the way. The only thing I begrudge them as a group is that the summer break seems excessive, and they never stop bitching about when the next holiday is coming.

At the end of the day you could never force me into that job!

Very well put.
I also have relations who are teachers, and have to laugh when people go on about it being cushy.
People seem to believe that teachers simply turn up at 9am, leave at 4pm and do little else.
Good teachers, which i'd consider my relations to be, spend most of their 'free' time during the week, and much of the weekend, preparing for classes, correcting and dealing with the myriad issues that crop up in relation to discipline, troubles the kids are having etc; sometimes it seems to me that, in addition to teaching, they have a part-time, unpaid job as a social worker.
In relation to the stress involved in the job, i've seen colleagues of theirs who have literally been mentally destroyed by the job and have had to quit; this of course, can happen in many jobs to those not suited, but i'd rank teaching as being right up there in terms of stress.
Then there are all the extra-curricular activities schools are involved in that many teachers give a huge proportion of their time to; many parents seem to take these for granted.
One of my relations who teaches is involved in coaching sport teams in his school and puts an inordinate amount of time into it, as do many teachers all over the country in pretty much any sport you can name.
I, like many here, believe that some public sector reform is necessary; but i'm sick of the ridiculous, unfounded 'they're all lazy and have a cushy job' rubbish, that some here are trotting out.

Liam_Flag

Don't think anyones calling them lazy...

Liam_Flag

ascanbe wrote: »

I, like many here, believe that some public sector reform is necessary; but i'm sick of the ridiculous, unfounded 'they're all lazy and have a cushy job' rubbish, that some here are trotting out.

Seeing as these courses that primary school teachers undertake during the Summer are of such benefit to both the teacher and the pupils, then week long courses (with no allocation of holidays) could be mandatory during mid terms?

Stark

Scr&#225 wrote: »

As for their pay I saw my Mam's salary cheque years back, and where she earned say 800 about 420 of that went to tax, they pay loads of it.

Then there's the benefits: Long holidays and a secure job. In the private sector we don't have the long holidays, and that is a major plus to teaching. Teachers seem to spend an inordinate amount of time waiting for the next holiday. Personally I resent that a bit. Also their jobs are more secure, private sector jobs aren't but to be fair we pay less tax and on average we get paid more.

There's something very wrong there. Teachers and public servants pay the same tax as everyone else (in some cases less if they were recruited before 1995 and are in PRSI class B or D). Either you read her payslip wrong or your mother never filled out a Form 12A when she started her job.

The only other thing I can think of is that herself and your father are being jointly assessed for tax purposes and most of the tax credits are going to your father.

Din Taylor

Scráib wrote: »

As for their pay I saw my Mam's salary cheque years back, and where she earned say 800 about 420 of that went to tax, they pay loads of it.

Scráib wrote: »

Great, they have a pension. They don't see that until they retire, until then it's heavy taxation all the way.

I stand to be corrected here - but are teachers not taxed at the same rates as everyone else?

Please don't reply about pension contributions. Pension contributions are a deferment of income and are NOT a tax. The income is then subject to tax when payed in retirement.

I believe a lot of teachers do a great job and I wouldn't begrudge these people their long summer holidays.:)

rainbowtrout

Din Taylor wrote: »

I stand to be corrected here - but are teachers not taxed at the same rates as everyone else?

Yes we are. It's the PRSI that's different for some teachers. Most of the older teachers in the school I work in pay Class D, the younger teachers pay Class A. I'm one of the latter. Don't know when it came into effect exactly. I believe D is a lot less, but I'm not particularly bothered about it. I can't change it so why stress about it?

rainbowtrout

Bill-e wrote: »

Also, is it true that teachers that are going for kids aim for some time in July/August? So that they get something like over a year off in total for maternity? I'd love to see some stats on the birth dates of teachers children. Can someone ask the CSO for this?

It's not really like you're making out. Teachers get the same maternity leave as any other woman in this country. 26 weeks. The school year at secondary level is 34 weeks. You can see straight away that a teacher will not be in for most of the academic year the year they have a baby. Some teachers do plan their children so all of their maternity leave runs over one school year rather than be split either side of the summer. E.g. get pregnant in January/February, have the baby in October/November and the 26 weeks maternity leave brings you to June. The school holidays kick in just as the maternity leave finishes so that person has June-August with their baby. Start back to work in September having finished the previous Halloween. To be fair, if a baby can be planned that well I can't see why a woman wouldn't take advantage of being able to spend 9 months with the baby before going back to work.

The other example you mentioned I have experience of. Started back to school the last week of August last year. Teacher went on maternity leave on day 2 of the school year, somewhere around 26/27th August. Maternity leave ran until March or thereabouts. She chose to take unpaid leave until the end of the school year. She'll be back to school this august. So she's had a year off with the baby.

To be honest if other professions had similar holidays I'm sure women would plan their maternity leaves to run into their holidays.

rainbowtrout

Tipp Man wrote: »

Well lets assess this reasonably shall we. Teachers (secondary in this example) have the following:

1. A maximum of 22 hours teaching per week
2. They work for a maximum of 8 continuous weeks before they get holidays
3. They have about 18 WEEKS holidays a year (yes thats 18 WEEKS not days) Do you actually realise that most people in this country only get 20 DAYS a year not weeks?
4. They are some of the best paid teachers in the world (despite the ridiculously short hours). Do people realise that a married couple who are teachers will be earning between 110-120k by the time they are 35?? Where else in the world does this happen??
5. They get their merit increases regardless of performance each and every year
6. They have a level of job security that is unrivalled anywhere (there have been less than a handful of teachers sacked in this country since the foundation of the state)
7. They have a gold plated Defined Benefit pension which is guaranteed to pay a masive lump sum on retirement on top of the very generous annual pension payment. All of which is guaranteed and will never loose value unlike a defined contribution scheme. If a married couple of teachers retired today they would get a lump sum of nearly 200k (TAX FREE) and an annual pension income of circa 60k)


Now if you can show me 1 profession in this country, the world even, which can come anywhere near to matching the lifestyle that teachers have then lets hear it

So taking all of the above into account the lifestyle that the high salary and low working hours gives teachers makes them the royalty of this country

That's assuming both have full time jobs and have been working since they came straight out of college. Quite restrictive terms. There's a married couple living around the corner from me, both of whom are teachers. One is working part time and the other is unemployed. Both in mid 30s. There is certainly not 120k going into that house every year.

You're picking out the best case scenario which isn't a reality for a lot of people. Not all teachers marry teachers either.

IM0

R U?

jimmycrackcorm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

That's assuming both have full time jobs and have been working since they came straight out of college. Quite restrictive terms. There's a married couple living around the corner from me, both of whom are teachers. One is working part time and the other is unemployed. Both in mid 30s. There is certainly not 120k going into that house every year.

You're picking out the best case scenario which isn't a reality for a lot of people. Not all teachers marry teachers either.

Yet you managed to pick out one off the worst case scenarios

reganm6

First of all primary and secondary school teachers should never be placed in the same catagory. I am currently studying for my B.ed degree in St. Pat's Dublin and am becoming increasingly frustrated with the negativity directed at the profession. After achieving well over 500 points in my leaving cert (like the majority of primary teachers have) I entered with a real passionate desire to teach. Had I known what little respect teachers are shown , perhaps I would have chosen my second choice, medicine. In a completely rational society, the best of us would be teachers and the rest of us would have to settle for something else.
Nonetheless I am now unable to see myself in any other profession but teaching. I am passionate about it and look forward to my career. The bitterness and jealousy people possess baffles me. In Ireland the cream of the crop are primary teachers. The band of 10% who achieved the high points. Why should we not be paid reasonably?? If you wish to reduce the wage of those you entrust the minds of the future to that of a plumber , treat them like dirt ,by all means do. Be like the other European countries. However reduce the points to get into it because you sure as hell don't need the brains that you do here in Ireland. Finland is the only country comparable and there, still ,

TEACHING IS NOT A LOST ART. IT SEEMS IN IRELAND THE REGARD AND RESPECT FOR IT IS A LOST TRADITION.

And please do not get me started on Yard Duty. For the entire year my mother (The Principal) got a pathetic 580 euro after Tax. You think she does it for the money? No , Its because she cares about the school , about the children.

Strata wrote: »

I personally don't think (all) teachers are lazy money grabbers. But I don't see what is wrong with discussing whether it might be better value for money for the state (and ultimately the taxpayer) if teachers worked longer hours/had less holidays e.g. shorter holidays for students, teachers not being paid extra to correct state exams/supervise state exams, not being paid extra to carry out for example "yard duty".