Are teachers taking the p!ss?

peasey

Having read this it seems that there are a few who are just interested in bit**ing and not actually thinking of ways to improve the system.

So instead of backbiting how about some decent ideas to make education more effiecient taking into account that teachers are trained to teach not babysit.

Firstly, our primary schools have amongst the highest literacy levels in Europe so thats a good start.

We also have amongst the highest student teacher ratios in Europe

Since we are compared to England. A lot of English schools seem to have classroom assistants and high parental involvement. How about combining that here by making parents more involved in their childrens educaton by having them volunteer once a month or so to work as classroom assistants. They could assist with displays, phocotocopying, collection and distribution of work, read to a group while the teacher takes other groups who need extra help for example, just thinking off top of my head other practical suggestions welcome.

This would decrease the student teacher ratio, allow teachers to concentrate on students who need more help, and the parents would have more of an understanding as to what goes on in a classroom and the financial burden on Education system decreased. Before anyone says what about working parents well they work in England too and the system seems to manage fine.

My friend who teaches in a primary school, has to pay for his photocopying as the school provides one photocopier for over 50 staff and they all have to pay to use it. So what? I hear you say, well it soon adds up when photocopying for 31 kids to supplement the books.

This can be solved by getting rid of books as there is a curriculum for teachers to work to and the books are more of a hindrance as they are printed by publishing companies with no heed for the curriculum. This would decrease what parents have to pay out on books as they could pay a slightly higher photocopying amount to the school but it would not be close to that of the price of books.


Planning during the holidays this has been suggested in various posts and also stated by some teachers that this is done. Fine log onto school network to have hours verified and the plans can then be checked during Whole School Evaluations. Courses, well teachers are already doing courses during their holidays and the extra days off for them are being taken off teachers due to Croke Park agreement as I read here somewhere.

My friend also told me he comes back to school a week or sobefore term to prepare the classroom, as it is in his words an empty shell and needs to be made inviting with displays etc before the children arrive back. Perhaps all teachers should do this.

Budgetting, for transparency purposes, my friend keeps a log of all he has spent this year as each student gives him a sum of money towards art, computers, and standardised testing. He keeps all receipts of everything he buys and was by the end of the year 570e or so out of pocket (not including above photocopying) trying to buy basic supplies to allow him teach his subject.
Surely in fairness this money should be reimbursed if it is over and above what has been given to the teacher. I am not sure of any career where basic necessities have to be bought to carry out the job.

Anyone got other suggestions?

spurious

peasey wrote: »

log onto school network

Most of what you describe, most teachers already do, but I'm sorry, 'log on to the school network'? Do you have any idea what passes as IT in some schools?

I can update my stuff on Moodle from home, sure, but many of my colleagues in other schools have to book a time in the 'computer room' just to access the Internet with their classes.

ixoy

Out of curiosity then for the teachers posting on this thread:

He hear a lot about the extra hours that are apparently worked. Can you give us some more concrete figures, some averages on the actual number of hours worked a week? The standard day and year is very short, so how much are they beefed up when you account for more work?
I know of teachers, for example, who never take work home with them.

gurramok

Average Primary School teacher earns 60k p.a. http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0416/teachers.html

rte wrote:

According to the data, the average male teacher earns €64,000 per annum, while the average female earns €56,000

Strata

Scráib wrote: »

Funny, there are three teachers in my immediate family: secondary, primary and my Mam, until she retired, was a principal. Most of their friends are teachers, and I know loads of teachers myself, but I went into the private sector so I think I see both sides of the coin pretty clearly.

It's true that on paper teachers work some really short days. However I've seen that the day will officially end at say 3.00 and Teachers will take loads home with them to do: lesson plans, corrections, test preparations etc. In fact Teachers as a group will take more work home with them than almost any other profession. Whenever there's a two week break most of it is spent doing corrections and the like.

That's a bit of a general statement don't you think? I know lot's of people in various professions who take work home with them/work overtime.

As for their pay I saw my Mam's salary cheque years back, and where she earned say 800 about 420 of that went to tax, they pay loads of it.

Teachers do not pay more tax than other civil servants or people in the private sector. It's an insult to taxpayers in the private sector to accuse them of paying less tax.

Then you have the job itself. Not many people realize this but when you're the only adult in a roomful of kids it's a very lonely job, and also pretty stressful. Try teaching a 13-year old who's just starting puberty and thinks he's the bees knees. Then fill a room with 21 of him. That's not easy, I tried. Had to restrain myself from strangling the little bastard if I'm honest!

Teachers do not hold the monopoly on having stressful jobs.

Then you have the parents. You've no idea how much parents stress teachers out. Parents are essentially blind when it comes to kids. Their darling Jane who could never put a foot wrong is in reality usually a stuck up little b!tch. Of course the teachers can't say this straight, and if they did the parents would erupt. There are lines in a school where parents aren't supposed to cross because crossing that undermines the teacher. Parents regularly ignore this line.

Again, Teachers do not hold the monopoly on having stressful jobs. Also - everyone has negative aspects to their job.

Then there's the benefits: Long holidays and a secure job. In the private sector we don't have the long holidays, and that is a major plus to teaching. Teachers seem to spend an inordinate amount of time waiting for the next holiday. Personally I resent that a bit. Also their jobs are more secure, private sector jobs aren't but to be fair we pay less tax and on average we get paid more.

PRIVATE SECTOR WORKERS DO NOT PAY LESS TAX THAN TEACHERS!

At the end of the say do they have it cushy? Personally I don't think so, when teachers work it's a mightily stressful job, and a lot of the time they go home to eat dinner, do corrections and then go to bed. Great, they have a pension. They don't see that until they retire, until then it's heavy taxation all the way. The only thing I begrudge them as a group is that the summer break seems excessive, and they never stop bitching about when the next holiday is coming.

Do you not think that having a defined benefits pension is a HUGE benefit of being a teacher? Most private sector workers have to provide for their own pension and are taxed on it in the same way as teachers.

Strata

reganm6 wrote: »

First of all primary and secondary school teachers should never be placed in the same catagory. I am currently studying for my B.ed degree in St. Pat's Dublin and am becoming increasingly frustrated with the negativity directed at the profession. After achieving well over 500 points in my leaving cert (like the majority of primary teachers have) I entered with a real passionate desire to teach. Had I known what little respect teachers are shown , perhaps I would have chosen my second choice, medicine. In a completely rational society, the best of us would be teachers and the rest of us would have to settle for something else.
Nonetheless I am now unable to see myself in any other profession but teaching. I am passionate about it and look forward to my career. The bitterness and jealousy people possess baffles me. In Ireland the cream of the crop are primary teachers. The band of 10% who achieved the high points. Why should we not be paid reasonably?? If you wish to reduce the wage of those you entrust the minds of the future to that of a plumber , treat them like dirt ,by all means do. Be like the other European countries. However reduce the points to get into it because you sure as hell don't need the brains that you do here in Ireland. Finland is the only country comparable and there, still ,



TEACHING IS NOT A LOST ART. IT SEEMS IN IRELAND THE REGARD AND RESPECT FOR IT IS A LOST TRADITION.

And please do not get me started on Yard Duty. For the entire year my mother (The Principal) got a pathetic 580 euro after Tax. You think she does it for the money? No , Its because she cares about the school , about the children.

Sheesh. This post is so pompous and self important I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic!

Please stop bringing after tax earnings into the equation. Every PAYE worker is taxed on their earning from employment. Are you suggesting she should have received this "yard duty" money tax free?

And why should yard duty not be part of the job?

spurious

ixoy wrote: »

I know of teachers, for example, who never take work home with them.

I do too. Some stay in work and do it, some are just dossers.

I get into work about 7.50, classes start at 8.40, though I usually do 'door duty' - checking for notes, letters to get off, that sort of thing, from 8.20.

Classes are one hour long and there are 6 a day, with a 40 minute lunch break. I wouldn't normally have classes for all six hours, but in between classes I might have a child on their own for reading, or a discipline issue to deal with, or update the website, or check stuff on Moodle, or do IEPs out, or order books, or have a meeting with parents, social workers etc.. A lot of frustration is caused by parents who have appointments and don't show up on time, maybe coming an hour late when I have a class, rather than the time they were given.

Classes finish at 3.30 and there is detention and extra classes (unpaid) after that. I usually leave about 4.50. I'm kind of bad for doing work at home for school and keep trying to leave it behind when I go home, but finding resources and checking Moodle is often easier to do in the relative peace of home than in school where there is always someone looking for something.

I have to go into work later this morning to organise a few things for next year. I generally take about four weeks in the summer where I try not to go into the school at all, but it doesn't always work out . There are all sorts of things have to be done, many of which are nothing to do with teaching. For example, I have to go in now and get stuff ready for an audit on an account we have for 'hardship' cases. I don't have any accounting background so I find this kind of stressful and difficult. I'm afraid I'll make a mistake and bugger it all up.

My classroom will have been stripped for the exams, so once the porters are finished polishing the floors, I will go in and get it ready for next year, putting back charts, replacing damaged stuff, posters, computer etc..

The students I teach don't find many text books accessible so I have to make my own resources for them. Most of the staff in my school (40+) would be the same. We'd have about two teachers who scarper the start of June never to be seen until the end of August, but truthfully they would be the exception. Most of the staff would be in and out during the exam period and once the LC results are out, people start to come in again to get stuff ready.

I never really worked out the hours I do, but family and friends (and doctor!) would say it's too much. They all quote to me examples of teachers they know who seem to be free all the time, but I don't know how they can do it.

**edit**
OK, I probably wasted my time typing a considered reply, having seen the more recent crap posted here, but ixoy, you posted a valid question. I won't be posting in this thread again. I have to go and count my 60k, or no wait, maybe it's 80k, I can't keep up.

funkyjebus

Strata wrote: »

And why should yard duty not be part of the job?

becuae it is the entitlement of every employee to take a half hour break for every 4 hours worked. and if you dont take it then, you have to leave the children with a supervisor or principal later in the day, resulting the the same thing this tread was opened to discuss. the teacher not in the classroom.

MagicSean

Strata wrote: »

That's a bit of a general statement don't you think? I know lot's of people in various professions who take work home with them/work overtime.

Not really. A lot of teachers work is done at home. Most people dont understand the level of preperation that goes into one day of classes, especially in the first few years.

Strata wrote: »

Teachers do not pay more tax than other civil servants or people in the private sector. It's an insult to taxpayers in the private sector to accuse them of paying less tax.

Not really. Teachers pay a pension levy like all public servants, and private sector employees dont. There are also three other pension deductions made from my pay cheque that I never saw when I was in the private sector.

Strata wrote: »

Teachers do not hold the monopoly on having stressful jobs.

But it is one of the most stressful jobs out there. There are plenty of jobs that could be classed as very stressful. I think the top 3 are prison guard, air traffic controller, and teacher.

Strata wrote: »

PRIVATE SECTOR WORKERS DO NOT PAY LESS TAX THAN TEACHERS!

Like I said, they dont pay the pension levy which is of course a tax. Lets not forget the paycuts, which were in effect just another tax on public sector workers.

Strata wrote: »

Do you not think that having a defined benefits pension is a HUGE benefit of being a teacher? Most private sector workers have to provide for their own pension and are taxed on it in the same way as teachers.

You can either go on about the free pension or the same tax rate. They are mutually exclusive. If you say they get a free pension then you are admitting the pension levy is a tax only on the public sector. If you are maintaining they pay the same tax then you have to conceded that the pension levy is a contribution to the pensions. You cant have it both ways.

Strata

k_mac wrote: »

Not really. A lot of teachers work is done at home. Most people dont understand the level of preperation that goes into one day of classes, especially in the first few years.

My argument is not that teachers don't take work home with them - my argument is that a lot of other professions also take work home with them or work unpaid overtime. I.e. teachers are not the only profession who work hard at their job.


Not really. Teachers pay a pension levy like all public servants, and private sector employees dont. There are also three other pension deductions made from my pay cheque that I never saw when I was in the private sector.

Private sector workers do not get a defined benefits pension from the state. Why would they have pension contributions?



But it is one of the most stressful jobs out there. There are plenty of jobs that could be classed as very stressful. I think the top 3 are prison guard, air traffic controller, and teacher.

This is a very subjective statement. In YOUR OPINION teachers have one of the most stressful jobs out there. In my opinion there are other jobs, a lot of jobs even, equally as stressful.



Like I said, they dont pay the pension levy which is of course a tax. Lets not forget the paycuts, which were in effect just another tax on public sector workers.

The pension levy is not a tax - it is a contribution to their defined benefits pension which they receive on retirement.



You can either go on about the free pension or the same tax rate. They are mutually exclusive. If you say they get a free pension then you are admitting the pension levy is a tax only on the public sector. If you are maintaining they pay the same tax then you have to conceded that the pension levy is a contribution to the pensions. You cant have it both ways.

I'm not saying that teachers get a free pension. I'm saying that the fund their pension by way of a contribution deducted from their salary and by the pension levy. Where did I say that I think teachers don't pay for their pension?

ixoy

k_mac wrote: »

Not really. A lot of teachers work is done at home. Most people dont understand the level of preperation that goes into one day of classes, especially in the first few years.

Which is why I asked. Can you give me rough approximations of total hours worked per week and how much during the summer? Back up the claims of working hard (and not by going relative to other teachers).

But it is one of the most stressful jobs out there. There are plenty of jobs that could be classed as very stressful. I think the top 3 are prison guard, air traffic controller, and teacher.

Not saying it's not stressful, but have you anything to back up that assertion? Again of the teachers I know, many are quite unstressed. Certainly they seem to have no problem going out, etc.

Lets not forget the paycuts, which were in effect just another tax on public sector workers.

A pay cut is a tax now is it? A lot of private sector workers are thus paying 25%+ tax then, a corporate tax.

If you are maintaining they pay the same tax then you have to conceded that the pension levy is a contribution to the pensions. You cant have it both ways.

Of course the pension levy is a contribution to the pension.

Il Trap

reganm6 wrote: »

First of all primary and secondary school teachers should never be placed in the same catagory. I am currently studying for my B.ed degree in St. Pat's Dublin and am becoming increasingly frustrated with the negativity directed at the profession. After achieving well over 500 points in my leaving cert (like the majority of primary teachers have) I entered with a real passionate desire to teach. Had I known what little respect teachers are shown , perhaps I would have chosen my second choice, medicine. In a completely rational society, the best of us would be teachers and the rest of us would have to settle for something else.
Nonetheless I am now unable to see myself in any other profession but teaching. I am passionate about it and look forward to my career. The bitterness and jealousy people possess baffles me. In Ireland the cream of the crop are primary teachers. The band of 10% who achieved the high points. Why should we not be paid reasonably?? If you wish to reduce the wage of those you entrust the minds of the future to that of a plumber , treat them like dirt ,by all means do. Be like the other European countries. However reduce the points to get into it because you sure as hell don't need the brains that you do here in Ireland. Finland is the only country comparable and there, still ,

TEACHING IS NOT A LOST ART. IT SEEMS IN IRELAND THE REGARD AND RESPECT FOR IT IS A LOST TRADITION.

And please do not get me started on Yard Duty. For the entire year my mother (The Principal) got a pathetic 580 euro after Tax. You think she does it for the money? No , Its because she cares about the school , about the children.

Please elaborate on the highlighted statement. I'm agreeing with Strata on this one.

sealgaire

The very fact that teachers get so much holidays is a joke to me

Fizzical

The 'pension levy' is not a contribution to a teacher's pension.

It has no relation to it - it is paid whether or not the teacher is entitled to a pension.

If the teacher is entitled to a pension the levy does not increase or decrease that pension.

It cannot be seen as part funding that pension as then why does someone not entitled to a pension have to pay it?

It is an extra tax on some workers introduced to accrue more money to the government in a time when public opinion allowed it.

Stark

The pension levy is refundable if you leave the public service before collecting your pension. So you can stop with the BS that it's a paycut or that you have to pay it regardless of pension entitlement.

peasey

ixoy wrote: »

Out of curiosity then for the teachers posting on this thread:

He hear a lot about the extra hours that are apparently worked. Can you give us some more concrete figures, some averages on the actual number of hours worked a week? The standard day and year is very short, so how much are they beefed up when you account for more work?
I know of teachers, for example, who never take work home with them.

There are teachers who don't take work home same as there are office workers who spend most of their day on the internet or those who work in private enterprise who dont bring work home, but these people tend to be those who dont care for their jobs.

My housemate (primary teacher) teaches 30 children in a prefab and finishes work at 3pm, he alternates staying in late 3 times one week and going at 3pm twice that week, with going early 3 times the next week and staying late twice that week.

Sometimes it doesnt work like this as he says himself certain children regularly get left in school waiting to be collected and he has to sit with them in reception till they are collected and sometimes parents want to speak to him which is all part of the job, so no big deal.

He goes to the gym, has dinner and then starts correcting the class copies
Corrections for one subject can take 1 and 1/2 hrs or so depending on the subject, he teaches 7 subjects a day. He generally corrects 2 subjects a night to keep on top of paperwork.


After this, a few nights a week he looks for resources on web and does lesson prep (notes, worksheets, powerpoint,making displays etc) He also never stops buying books and other resources that he feels will help make learning more vibrant for the children. So all in all I see him do a about 3-5 hours a night, regardless of whether he stays late or not.

I am not saying he is brilliant or that all teachers do this, just pointing out how much work I see him put in in order to answer the above question

bigbadbear

Strata. This "Yard" "Duty" you keep putting in quotations. Why do you talk about this like it's nothing. They have to work through their lunch. how could you possibly think that working through your lunch should be compulsory?

funkyjebus

peasey wrote: »

There are teachers who don't take work home same as there are office workers who spend most of their day on the internet or those who work in private enterprise who dont bring work home, but these people tend to be those who dont care for their jobs.

My housemate (primary teacher) teaches 30 children in a prefab and finishes work at 3pm, he alternates staying in late 3 times one week and going at 3pm twice that week, with going early 3 times the next week and staying late twice that week.

Sometimes it doesnt work like this as he says himself certain children regularly get left in school waiting to be collected and he has to sit with them in reception till they are collected and sometimes parents want to speak to him which is all part of the job, so no big deal.

He goes to the gym, has dinner and then starts correcting the class copies
Corrections for one subject can take 1 and 1/2 hrs or so depending on the subject, he teaches 7 subjects a day. He generally corrects 2 subjects a night to keep on top of paperwork.


After this, a few nights a week he looks for resources on web and does lesson prep (notes, worksheets, powerpoint,making displays etc) He also never stops buying books and other resources that he feels will help make learning more vibrant for the children. So all in all I see him do a about 3-5 hours a night, regardless of whether he stays late or not.

I am not saying he is brilliant or that all teachers do this, just pointing out how much work I see him put in in order to answer the above question

My girlfirend is the exact same, weve had fights because shes always working. as a private sector worker i can safely say they deserve their holidays.

bigbadbear

I don't think it would be unreasonable to force teachers to go on these courses. However, They if we did this then we couldnt make them pay for the couses. they'd have to be free. Sure a blind man could see that after paying for 5 courses and only getting 3 days off in the school year there is no real profit to be made.

I personally think that teachers should be paid more than an average wage as it is a difficult job. Doesnt everyone agree that more difficult jobs should be paid more?

@HB I don't mean to insult you in any way with this comment so please take it with a pinch of salt. You chose IT as a sector and the pay in this area is pretty crap. Maybe supply and demand for labour or soemthing?? I dont know. Either way you cant compare your wages to anyones really as the IT sector is not a sector with even reasonable wages unless your into some exclusive niche.

@Stark
Do you really think that all the pension levy deductions will be returned to the public sector workers. I cant see this happening but am open to correction. If they actually will get it back then I'm a little disgusted at the industrial action being taken by PS.

On this note I think very few teachers or nurses joined into the go slow. How ironic is it that these are the educated ones with fairly tough jobs and some gimpy office worker who left school at 15 and works in the the dole office is now on a go slow.

Stark

bigbadbear wrote: »

@Stark
Do you really think that all the pension levy deductions will be returned to the public sector workers. I cant see this happening but am open to correction. If they actually will get it back then I'm a little disgusted at the industrial action being taken by PS.

Details here: http://www.citizensinformationboard.ie/publications/relate/relate_2009_4.pdf , http://www.thesaurus.ie/2009PensionRelatedDeduction.doc .

Says it only applies to employees with less than 2 years service, but it's standard in most jobs (including my own) that if you stay for longer than 2 years then your contributions go into a bond that's held until you retire.

bigbadbear wrote: »

I personally think that teachers should be paid more than an average wage as it is a difficult job. Doesnt everyone agree that more difficult jobs should be paid more?

Agreed. But I don't see any evidence to suggest that this is no longer the case, despite what teachers are claiming. I don't think anyone (well I certainly don't) wants to see teaching as a profession go down the route of teaching in the UK. But I think that Irish teachers still have more than adequate pay and conditions all things considering. They should really try teaching in another country and then come back and see if things really are that bad here.

bigbadbear wrote: »

On this note I think very few teachers or nurses joined into the go slow. How ironic is it that these are the educated ones with fairly tough jobs and some gimpy office worker who left school at 15 and works in the the dole office is now on a go slow

Funnily enough, I do know teachers who were involved in industrial action but they were just doing what bad teachers (and bad schools) have been doing for years. Things like refusing to hold parent teacher meetings outside of school hours and the like.

ixoy

bigbadbear wrote: »

I personally think that teachers should be paid more than an average wage as it is a difficult job. Doesnt everyone agree that more difficult jobs should be paid more?

Well depends on what you define as difficult. Some people seem to have no trouble with it.

Either way you cant compare your wages to anyones really as the IT sector is not a sector with even reasonable wages unless your into some exclusive niche.

With all fairness though, teachers and many others in the PS/CS were constantly asking to be bench marked against other sectors and look for a premium for being in Ireland (one which I know many people in IT wouldn't get over their UK counterparts for example).
One of the reasons that IT wages can be low is greater competition on the global market, something you can be immunised against in state employment.

funkyjebus

ixoy wrote: »

Well depends on what you define as difficult. Some people seem to have no trouble with it. .

ans some people have no trouble selling their bodies for money, some people find it difficult.

what these two stupid statements prove i dont know, just thought id top your stupidity.

some people find driving a f1 car no problem, youd **** yourself.

Cian92

peasey wrote: »

Since we are compared to England. A lot of English schools seem to have classroom assistants and high parental involvement. How about combining that here by making parents more involved in their childrens educaton by having them volunteer once a month or so to work as classroom assistants. They could assist with displays, phocotocopying, collection and distribution of work, read to a group while the teacher takes other groups who need extra help for example, just thinking off top of my head other practical suggestions welcome.

There was some good points in your post about reimbursing teachers, and alot of what you siad is already being done voluntarily by teachers.

However, trying to copy the English system would be a disaster. It is not
that parents are more involved, its that they are more pushy and interfering. I have talked with many teachers who work in the UK and nearly all have worked with teachers who have left the profession because of the pressure of parents. Parents often think they know what is best for their children but often that is Bull****. If you google this topic about interfering parents you will get a large insight into it. The English system is infamous for just how bad it is, we should not try and copy it.

funkyjebus

Cian92 wrote: »

There was some good points in your post about reimbursing teachers, and alot of what you siad is already being done voluntarily by teachers.

However, trying to copy the English system would be a disaster. It is not
that parents are more involved, its that they are more pushy and interfering. I have talked with many teachers who work in the UK and nearly all have worked with teachers who have left the profession because of the pressure of parents. Parents often think they know what is best for their children but often that is Bull****. If you google this topic about interfering parents you will get a large insight into it. The English system is infamous for just how bad it is, we should not try and copy it.

agree, a pressured teacher makes a bad teacher. we all know what its like when someone is looking over your shoulder. i loose all typing skills and ability function crisply.

ixoy

funkyjebus wrote: »

ans some people have no trouble selling their bodies for money, some people find it difficult.

what these two stupid statements prove i dont know, just thought id top your stupidity.

What's with the aggresive tone? It's claimed that teaching is a stressful job and I'm merely saying it's a relative concept - that teachers may find it less stressful than others because they're drawn to that type of work. In much the same manner as people might find my work more stressful than I because they're not geared towards it. My sister is in medicine and yes, it's stressful, but that's combatted against the enjoyment she gets from her work.

Stark

Cian92 wrote: »

However, trying to copy the English system would be a disaster. It is not
that parents are more involved, its that they are more pushy and interfering. I have talked with many teachers who work in the UK and nearly all have worked with teachers who have left the profession because of the pressure of parents. Parents often think they know what is best for their children but often that is Bull****. If you google this topic about interfering parents you will get a large insight into it. The English system is infamous for just how bad it is, we should not try and copy it.

Agreed. Seriously guys and girls, I know people who have emigrated from England to here as they couldn't stick the constant bull**** bureaucracy that goes with teaching in England. Do you want to do regular A4 page sized reports for each and every one of your students several times a year on top of your existing paperwork load?

Patsy fyre

Yep absolute disgrace.

If teachers teach in the gaeltacht for 3 weeks in the summer they recieve 3,600e on top of there salary and get 5 days extra paid leave!

Yes this country is in a mess!

funkyjebus

ixoy wrote: »

What's with the aggresive tone? It's claimed that teaching is a stressful job and I'm merely saying it's a relative concept - that teachers may find it less stressful than others because they're drawn to that type of work. In much the same manner as people might find my work more stressful than I because they're not geared towards it. My sister is in medicine and yes, it's stressful, but that's combatted against the enjoyment she gets from her work.

sorry, your qite right was a bit aggressive, wasnt meant that way really! well your point didnt come across as one of relative concept, but that teaching cannot be considered difficult, but now by your comments any job can be difficult, depending on someones level of intellect. when really an average person can be a bin man, but not everyone can be a teacher, some would break down in tears as i would with medicine, but teachers are paid and recieve holidays relative to that. as do doctors are whatever branch of medicine your sis is in.

MagicSean

Patsy fyre wrote: »

Yep absolute disgrace.

If teachers teach in the gaeltacht for 3 weeks in the summer they recieve 3,600e on top of there salary and get 5 days extra paid leave!

Yes this country is in a mess!

And I suppose you work bank holidays and weekends for free.

ixoy

funkyjebus wrote: »

not everyone can be a teacher, some would break down in tears as i would with medicine, but teachers are paid and recieve holidays relative to that. as do doctors are whatever branch of medicine your sis is in.

I wouldn't even say a job is linked to intellect rather than ability. Some jobs would be very tough physically - for example you wouldn't have to be highly intelligent to be a prison guard but it would be stressful.

I'm not sure teaching is a job requiring high intelligence but it does (or should!) involve having skills like a high degree of patience and caring. Both of these would mean I wouldn't be able to cope and would probably want to throw the little brats through the window! And then make sarcastic remarks, or roll my eyes, when their parents came into complain that little Johnny is a good child and shouldn't have been defenestrated.
I wouldn't similarly cope with the stress of medicine and would either not care enough or find myself zipping up my patients in a body bag.
By the same token though, people in both of these professions could be stressed out resolving issues on a live server system which I can take with a large degree of calmness because it's just what I'm suited to do.

Tingo

funkyjebus wrote: »

becuae it is the entitlement of every employee to take a half hour break for every 4 hours worked. and if you dont take it then, you have to leave the children with a supervisor or principal later in the day, resulting the the same thing this tread was opened to discuss. the teacher not in the classroom.

According to the Citizen's Information website you are "entitled to a break of 15 minutes after a 4 ½ hour work period." Obviously you could still end up working through your break, but it's easier to fit in a 15 minute break than 30 minutes (http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/employment/employment-rights-and-conditions/hours-of-work/rest-periods-and-breaks)

Yard duty isn't every day is it? I was under the impression was it was once or twice. If so, most days teachers would get their entitled breaks most of the time then. I remember reading ages ago that teachers got an extra 2,000 a year for yard duty. That seems to be fair compensation especially since it's optional and you can turn it down. That could be complete waffle, perhaps from a ancestor thread of this one; I'm open to correction. It wouldn't work for younger classes and isn't particularly comfortable or professional, but the teacher could take their break in the classroom if they gave out some exercise like a wordsearch or something that wouldn't necessarily involve the teacher's assistance (or would it?).


Is 60K the absolute max that a teacher can earn per year? Someone mentioned getting an extra 5K for topping up 1st aid boxes. I heard teachers get an extra 5K for doing a masters. And assume 2K for yard duty. If a teacher did all these things could they get an extra 12K a year, which would make the wage 72K? Or are these figures included in the 60K?

Onto the topic though, getting 3 days off for the course seems fair enough to me. For all parties involved, it's better than a teacher schedule a day off in advance than pull a sickie. It saves money, kids can be given work to do, other teachers can be informed (if several teachers are out on the same day, it must be quite difficult to split those kids into other classes) etc.

Although some of those courses seem quite easy, they can only be taken once so if someone wants their 3 days off every year, they will have to do more difficult ones. And difficulty is subjective anyway, the music course would be handy to someone musically inclined, whereas many teachers might struggle and learn loads from it. It could make a huge difference to the way they teach it in the classroom for the following 40 years (or whatever years) which is certainly worth 3 days that they may not take.

Patsy fyre

k_mac wrote: »

And I suppose you work bank holidays and weekends for free.

Who said anything about weekends and holidays?
The way I see it is there getting paid to teach during the summer( although most spend 6 weeks in america) so why should the get paid extra on top of this, not to mention the 5 days extra paid leave!

One rule for the public sector and another for the peasents!

MagicSean

Patsy fyre wrote: »

Who said anything about weekends and holidays?
The way I see it is there getting paid to teach during the summer( although most spend 6 weeks in america) so why should the get paid extra on top of this, not to mention the 5 days extra paid leave!

One rule for the public sector and another for the peasents!

They are getting paid to work overtime during the summer.

If you like the teaching benefits so much join the profession. Its not an exclusive club.

Tipp Man

Tingo wrote: »

Is 60K the absolute max that a teacher can earn per year? Someone mentioned getting an extra 5K for topping up 1st aid boxes. I heard teachers get an extra 5K for doing a masters. And assume 2K for yard duty. If a teacher did all these things could they get an extra 12K a year, which would make the wage 72K? Or are these figures included in the 60K?

60k is most definately is NOT the absolute max a (secondary) teacher can earn in a year. It goes a bit like this.

The maximum on the salary scale is 59,359 (usually after 22 years teaching)
On top of this they get an extra 4,918 for having a degree and an extra 1,236 for having the HDip (which is an absolute pharce as these are surely the basic minimum requirements for the job)
On top of that they will get an extra 5,496 for having a Masters

So without taking any other allowances or wages into account the max they will earn is 71k

However there are also loads of nice little earners such as yard duty which pays the minimum wage amount of 50.34 per hour, this also applies to supervison, so if your mate calls in sick and you cover his class thats the extra you get

There is also the ridiculous situation regarding the state exams and the amounts that can be earned on supervision and correction of these (how have we ever gotten into a situation where these aren't part of a teachers duty, it's a bloody disgrace)

Tipp Man

Patsy fyre wrote: »

Who said anything about weekends and holidays?
The way I see it is there getting paid to teach during the summer( although most spend 6 weeks in america) so why should the get paid extra on top of this, not to mention the 5 days extra paid leave!

One rule for the public sector and another for the peasents!

When I was in school about 12 years ago now, 1 of our teachers used to spend 10 weeks every summer in the USA earning thousands on the construction sites, all tax free of course. He used to bring a team of about 10 teachers over there

What other job in the world can you do this??

Tipp Man

Can we also knock the idea on the head that teachers somehow spend hours and hours each night correcting and preparing because it is the greatest croc of crap i have ever seen.

I have lived with many teachers and my best friends are teachers (all secondary) so I see first hand exactly what they do and what they dont do)

First off the vast majority of teachers rarely produce teaching plans, Secondly the ones that do only need to do it about once every five years, once you have done it once it is a very simple job to update it year on year for small syllabus changes. Only when the syllabus changes dramatically do they need to change their plans (which are only ever inspected on very very rare occassions, its not like the principals go around every day to check the lesson plans which is very different to what the UK teachers have to do I might add)

Thirdly seen as though they have 22 contact hours a week that leaves 16 hours a week to bring them up to the average 38 hour week. Now the very minimum that a teacher will correct will be 4 essays an hour (that is full leaving cert history/geography type essays) meaning they will correct 64 essays a week - so a leaving cert history and geography teacher will be able to correct an essay from every student in BOTH subjects every week before he is anyway near going over the standard 38 hour week

Fourthly somebody earlier in the thread wrote some rubbish about teachers being required to be in school from 9-4 regardless of class times. Utter LIES. If their first class isn't until 10.30 then they can (and all do) turn up at 10.15. If their last class is at 2.30 then they finish at 2.30

Fifthly it is really sickening to see teachers try to justify the large salary, huge pension and even better holiday entitlements but its their profession so i can kind of see where they are coming from. What I simply can't fathom is the public in this thread agreeing with the teachers on how tough their job is, how they deserve 18 WEEKS holidays a year etc etc. It is quite simply sickening and really shows that a lot of Irish people really haven't a clue

bigbadbear

Tipp Man wrote: »

There is also the ridiculous situation regarding the state exams and the amounts that can be earned on supervision and correction of these (how have we ever gotten into a situation where these aren't part of a teachers duty, it's a bloody disgrace)

Think about it though. Only the older or more experienced teachers correct the state exams and it makes sense that this is the case. If you correct state exams and another teacher doesn't then surely you should get paid for it. The other option is that every teacher including young inexperienced ones should correct about 10 exam papers each in some big massive 10 hectare warehouse. In reality its not feasible or logical.

Tipp Man wrote: »

When I was in school about 12 years ago now, 1 of our teachers used to spend 10 weeks every summer in the USA earning thousands on the construction sites, all tax free of course. He used to bring a team of about 10 teachers over there

What other job in the world can you do this??

Basically what your saying here is they get long holidays upon which they can do as they please. Most dont do this but fair play to this teacher of yours i say.

Most teachers genuinely arent on the high wages mentioned a post or two ago.

Tipp Man wrote: »

Can we also knock the idea on the head that teachers somehow spend hours and hours each night correcting and preparing because it is the greatest croc of crap i have ever seen.

It's not really. There's a fair bit of work to be done if your any way half decent teacher.

Tipp Man

bigbadbear wrote: »

Think about it though. Only the older or more experienced teachers correct the state exams and it makes sense that this is the case. If you correct state exams and another teacher doesn't then surely you should get paid for it. The other option is that every teacher including young inexperienced ones should correct about 10 exam papers each in some big massive 10 hectare warehouse. In reality its not feasible or logical.

Not sure about the older more experienced teachers line that you are throwing out - most of my friends have correct state exams by the age of 30-32 so what 5-7 years experience (which i personally think is sufficient) How many teachers are there actually under the age of 30 in this country who couldn't correct exams??

A very simple alternative would be to have teachers with less than 5 years (or whatever) teaching experience doing the supervision and those with more doing the correcting.

It is that simple and there is nothing stopping it expects teachers and unions

bigbadbear wrote: »

Basically what your saying here is they get long holidays upon which they can do as they please. Most dont do this but fair play to this teacher of yours i say.

Most teachers genuinely arent on the high wages mentioned a post or two ago.

That was in response to a question was 60k the max they could earn.

Look the fact of the matter is any 35 year old teacher with a masters is on 60k a year, has a massive guaranteed penion and 18 weeks holidays a year. Those are the FACTS

Fozzie Bear

funkyjebus wrote: »

My girlfirend is the exact same, weve had fights because shes always working. as a private sector worker i can safely say they deserve their holidays.

Exactly. I am the same a private sector worker, missus a primary teacher.

Of all the people on this thread (and all the previous threads on the same subject) how many actually really know teachers? And I don't mean friends or neighbours. I mean Girlfriends/boyfriends/Wives/Husbands because then you get to see first hand the stress, the tears, the frustration with the system, the children and the parents. Something you may not see with friends, neighbours or family. You get to see the after hours work they put in with corrections, paperwork and evaluation forms, sports, swimming classes, tours, first communions, homework clubs (in school), home assistance (in the childs home).

It is a completely thankless job and to top it then you get people jumping up and down and shouting about the "benefits" and holidays and great pay and blah, blah, blah. They have not got a clue what the fu@k they are spouting about. Reading some half ar$ed piece off the web does not give you an expert opinion. Teachers earn every cent of what they get.

My missus is a primary school teacher in a seriously disadvantaged school in Galway. She deals with travellers and their kids, foreigners with no English and the general dregs of society. She has kids from broken homes, kids with severe psychological and emotional problems, kids with parents in jail, kids who come to school with bruises and then after a day of this of constant stress, worry and chasing them around she deals with their parents. Parents who forget to collect the kids from school because they are off their face with drink or drugs. Parents who have had fist fights in the school grounds. Parents who do not give a fiddlers fu@k about the child or its welfare. Parents who do not feed or wash their kids. Parents who come into the school and verbally abuse her in front of other children, parents and staff. Have you any idea how humiliating and degrading that actually is?

Last year she had to wash sh!t off the walls and equipment in a small storage room at the back of her class because a child went in their and smeared it all over the walls.


I have posted the below previously on Boards about her job. This occured a few years back and has been repeated several times a year since to varying degrees. Walk a mile in her shoes and then come back here and tell us all how unfair it is that she gets hoildays and more pay then you.

Fozzie Bear wrote: »

My better half is a primary school teacher in one of the "rougher" parts of the city. She teaches 4th class this year and in the past two weeks alone 7 out of 15 of her pupils have been suspended for fighting or disruption within the classroom. Thats over 50% of them and this is not confined to just her class. She is regularly told to fu@k off, called a cnut, b1tch and whore to mention just a few. They have absolutely NO respect for the teachers, adults or any sort or authority and its down to the way they are dragged up. They are not brought up, no, they are dragged up by their "parents".

Last year she had a different class of pupils and of them maybe 5/6 were real trouble makers. One in particular came from a broken home. The kids father had killed himself, his mother has tried several times to do likewise and is in and out if the psych ward regularly. The kid is bouncing off the walls and nobody is helping him. They can't get a psychologist to assess him due to lack of resources etc, he can't focus or behave in class and he takes it out on the teacher. He runs out of the classroom and takes off down the road with his teacher chasing after him in case he gets knocked down. He swears, is aggressive and has reduced my better half to tears (not an easy task i assure you) on occasions and he is 10 years of age!

Now how about you people who want to complain about perceived injustices get off the high horse about teachers and refocus on the clowns in government who are paying themselves hundreds of thousands of euro a year to run our country into the ground. Or their cronies who have been allowed to walk off into the sunset with millions in their arse pockets while the rest of us face decades of taxes, emigration and unemployment. Bertie Ahearn, Roddy Molloy, Patrick Neary, Sean Fitzpatrick and Michael Fingleton should get you started.

A small bit of perspective is required by a hell of a lot of you.

bigbadbear

Tipp Man wrote: »

Somebody earlier in the thread wrote some rubbish about teachers being required to be in school from 9-4 regardless of class times. Utter LIES. If their first class isn't until 10.30 then they can (and all do) turn up at 10.15. If their last class is at 2.30 then they finish at 2.30

What I simply can't fathom is the public in this thread agreeing with the teachers on how tough their job is, how they deserve 18 WEEKS holidays a year etc etc. It is quite simply sickening and really shows that a lot of Irish people really haven't a clue

Can somebody please tell me how the salary works because surely to god a guy who only teaches two subjects doesnt get the same amount as somebody who has 4 subjects. can somebody varify the salary arrangements in these cases.

18 weeks is slightly excessive but what is a realistic solution going forward?

I was a horrible horrible person to teach. I'd say my year reduced the life expectancy of many of our teachers with the stress we caused them. I think they deserve more pay than most for this. However their hours must be considered. Anyone who is pushing for them to be braought down in pay to a regular joe soap is not taking on board the stress of the job. I know its huge because i caused so much of it!

All in all I think Secondary and primary teachers are a whole different kettle of fish.

Good points of each:

Primary teachers have less stress in the classroom and less hours a day

Secondary teachers have long holdays, free time during the day, fewer lesson plans and less phsycology to use on their students.

Bad points:

Secondary have one of the highest depression levels of any proffession (Dentists and airline pilots are in the top three with them)
Stressful job,
longer days,

Primary, involves more class preparation, more alertness required during class, shorter holidays, less pay in most cases (comparing full hours with full hours)

Tipp Man

bigbadbear wrote: »

Can somebody please tell me how the salary works because surely to god a guy who only teaches two subjects doesnt get the same amount as somebody who has 4 subjects. can somebody varify the salary arrangements in these cases.

Its pretty simple and has nothing to do with subjects. A secondary teachers full time teaching hours are a maximum of 22 hours per week, it doesn't matter if they teach 1 subject or 22 subjects for those hours.

Basically they are paid by the hour, so a part time teacher on 18 hours will get 18/22 of the salary of a person on the same salary scale

In my experience most teachers tend to teach 2-3 subjects

Feeona

poodles wrote: »

Primary school teachers are able to do a course during the summer which enables them to take an extra 3 days (atleast) personal annual leave.

Yeah it's great :):p:D:pac:

Tipp Man

Just to throw a slightly different angle on it. The starting salary of a secondary school teacher with Masters is 43,500

Is there another profession in this country where you can earn that kind of starting salary at 23-24 years old??

Feeded

ixoy wrote: »

Out of curiosity then for the teachers posting on this thread:

He hear a lot about the extra hours that are apparently worked. Can you give us some more concrete figures, some averages on the actual number of hours worked a week? The standard day and year is very short, so how much are they beefed up when you account for more work?
I know of teachers, for example, who never take work home with them.

i work my 22hours per week. . .in the evening might meet leaving cert students after school to go through answers. . I help out other teachers after school if they needed help with IT problems. . . . You see the thing is, it's sort of like being 'on call' . . If a kid met me on the corridor and asked me to check some work for him, i'd say ''no bother, are you around after school?'' we can't quantify the work in units of time but i can safely say we don't keep track of it- we only recollect it when we're pushed by cynical posters. . That wasn't directed at yourself by the way!

Feeded

Tipp Man wrote: »

Just to throw a slightly different angle on it. The starting salary of a secondary school teacher with Masters is 43,500

Is there another profession in this country where you can earn that kind of starting salary at 23-24 years old??

TippMan you're ruining my holidays!! There's only so much of your nonsense i can take. . . You really haven't a clue!? A teacher with a degree, h.dip will earn 1,900 per fortnight after ten years. . Will pay out 700 per fortnight. . I'm telling you the truth here- i get 600per week after ten years in the job. . If i had a masters, i would exchange my degree allowance for a masters allowance- the difference is only around 50euro a week. . If that. . . That's fact.. . . .

ixoy

Feeded wrote: »

i work my 22hours per week. . .in the evening might meet leaving cert students after school to go through answers. . I help out other teachers after school if they needed help with IT problems. . . . You see the thing is, it's sort of like being 'on call' . . If a kid met me on the corridor and asked me to check some work for him, i'd say ''no bother, are you around after school?'' we can't quantify the work in units of time but i can safely say we don't keep track of it- we only recollect it when we're pushed by cynical posters. . That wasn't directed at yourself by the way!

Would you agree that broadly speaking then your hours are quite good, given the number of weeks off during the year? I know their timing is infliexible but that, on an hour-per-hour basis it's good compared to people working say 48 x 5 x 37.5?

Fizzical

Tipp Man wrote: »

Thirdly seen as though they have 22 contact hours a week that leaves 16 hours a week to bring them up to the average 38 hour week. Now the very minimum that a teacher will correct will be 4 essays an hour (that is full leaving cert history/geography type essays) meaning they will correct 64 essays a week - so a leaving cert history and geography teacher will be able to correct an essay from every student in BOTH subjects every week before he is anyway near going over the standard 38 hour week

Fifthly it is really sickening to see teachers try to justify the large salary, huge pension and even better holiday entitlements but its their profession so i can kind of see where they are coming from. What I simply can't fathom is the public in this thread agreeing with the teachers on how tough their job is, how they deserve 18 WEEKS holidays a year etc etc. It is quite simply sickening and really shows that a lot of Irish people really haven't a clue

Do you really think that teachers only teach 64 students? Try from 7 to 9 different class groups of 30+. And you're only talking about one item of homework, never mind all the rest of the homework, preparing 7 to 9 different classes each day, making out teaching aids, making out tests etc and that's only some of the paperwork.

But I agree that teachers shouldn't be trying to justify their salary, pension and holidays. These were established to reflect the hours and content of the job.

Feeded

ixoy wrote: »

Would you agree that broadly speaking then your hours are quite good, given the number of weeks off during the year? I know their timing is infliexible but that, on an hour-per-hour basis it's good compared to people working say 48 x 5 x 37.5?

. . on paper hour-per-hour, my job seems better off. Yes when you boil it all down it's 34 x 5 x 22 . . . . We're dealing with children here. We must give them attention for the full 22 hours. . Even when we're not teaching them. . We are responsible for them and in cases we see more of them during the week than their own parents. . . So i don't feel one bit guilty if people try to expose our contracted 22 hour week. . What goes unnoticed is the work and care after those 22 hours- i go on a school tour during my Easter break each year. . That's 5 x 24 hours where we are responsible for 42 kids. . We take the place of the parent for 120 hours. . It's part of our job. . I'll do it again next year because i enjoy it. .

Stark

Fizzical wrote: »

But I agree that teachers shouldn't be trying to justify their salary, pension and holidays. These were established to reflect the hours and content of the job.

And to reflect the proportion of Oireachtas members who are teachers.

Tipp Man

Feeded wrote: »

TippMan you're ruining my holidays!! There's only so much of your nonsense i can take. . . You really haven't a clue!? A teacher with a degree, h.dip will earn 1,900 per fortnight after ten years. . Will pay out 700 per fortnight. . I'm telling you the truth here- i get 600per week after ten years in the job. . If i had a masters, i would exchange my degree allowance for a masters allowance- the difference is only around 50euro a week. . If that. . . That's fact.. . . .

You are quite right i must apologise to all teachers - I inadvertently added the masters allowance onto the other allowances instead of just the difference. so apoligies for that mistake.

but just to clarify your figures. 10 years on the job is point 13 on the salary scale so €48,200, plus Hdip €1,236 plus degree €4,918 equal an annual salary of 54,354 . Which ties back to one of my first posts on this thread whereby a married couple of teachers would earn between 110-120k by the time they are 35. So outrageous money considering all the perks