Are teachers taking the p!ss?

Tipp Man

Fizzical wrote: »

Do you really think that teachers only teach 64 students? Try from 7 to 9 different class groups of 30+. And you're only talking about one item of homework, never mind all the rest of the homework, preparing 7 to 9 different classes each day, making out teaching aids, making out tests etc and that's only some of the paperwork.

But I agree that teachers shouldn't be trying to justify their salary, pension and holidays. These were established to reflect the hours and content of the job.

I was using that as an example as to how much can actually be corrected by a teacher in the spare hours they have between what they teach and what the standard working week is. ARe you honestly trying to tell me there is a teacher in this country spending hours correcting first and fourth year homework for example?

Don't give me this preparing class crap either. The vast majority of teachers don't prepare lesson plans and as I mentioned earlier once you have done them once they can be used year after year. As for making out tests, how often does this actually happen? Christmas, summer a couple more for leaving certs maybe. Does it really takes hours and hours of work to create these tests??

Fizzical wrote: »

But I agree that teachers shouldn't be trying to justify their salary, pension and holidays. These were established to reflect the hours and content of the job.

With that kind of attitude no teacher can ever question the developers, the bankers or the TD's salaries in this country. The fact is that teachers can't justify either the large salary, the huge pension and the huge holidays they have. If they could justify them it would already have been done in this thread and nobody has come anywhere near doing that

Herb Powell

Tootle wrote: »

I wont fight ya Herb;) I agree, I dont like Teacher bashing. I dont like any bashing actually.
The phrase you highlighted is not subjective its based on OECD averages so although I dont have the direct reference I'm fairly confident that what I've stated is fact (ok I accept the 'too long' bit being subjective:rolleyes:). Anyway nit picking aside, its not that I begrudge Teachers their holidays. If I wanted those holidays I would have been a teacher, but not for all the pay in the world would I be a secondary school teacher. My point is only that complaining about having to pay for a course as part of your professional development isn't really anything to moan about.

very true

Feeded

Tipp Man wrote: »

You are quite right i must apologise to all teachers - I inadvertently added the masters allowance onto the other allowances instead of just the difference. so apoligies for that mistake.

but just to clarify your figures. 10 years on the job is point 13 on the salary scale so €48,200, plus Hdip €1,236 plus degree €4,918 equal an annual salary of 54,354 . Which ties back to one of my first posts on this thread whereby a married couple of teachers would earn between 110-120k by the time they are 35. So outrageous money considering all the perks

i have my pay slip in front of me so here goes. . . 1733.31 basic plus 47.37 h.dip allowance plus 188.50 degree allowance . Which comes to 1969.18 per fortnight gross. . . . . PAYE 252.31, PRSI 126.30, income levy 39.38, ASTI 13.10, 1.5 Sp&Ch 29.54, Pension Levy 129.61, Pension Contribution 66.22 . . The money going out equals 663.55 . . That comes to 1305.63 per fortnight into my hand. . .that's around 650 a week. . .i have a mortgage, i have expenses and i'm not married. . Forget about teachers marrying teachers for a minute. . . You look at that wage and tell me that after 10 years in the same highly skilled job that required 4 years of training that it is ''outrageous'' . I think the most difficult part of the teachers' profession for you TippMan is the holidays but apart from the love of teaching the duty of care, the only other thing that's attracting graduates into our profession is the holidays. . .you reminded us all about the earning potential of couples who are teachers. . Just consider how much of a deduction hit that household this year with the levy on pensions and on earnings. . Give over your moaning, we've given enough this year already, we're giving a damn good service to the state and they're damm lucky. . . . The ONLY perk we have are the holidays

Patsy fyre

Feeded wrote: »

i have my pay slip in front of me so here goes. . . 1733.31 basic plus 47.37 h.dip allowance plus 188.50 degree allowance . Which comes to 1969.18 per fortnight gross. . . . . PAYE 252.31, PRSI 126.30, income levy 39.38, ASTI 13.10, 1.5 Sp&Ch 29.54, Pension Levy 129.61, Pension Contribution 66.22 . . The money going out equals 663.55 . . That comes to 1305.63 per fortnight into my hand. . .that's around 650 a week. . .i have a mortgage, i have expenses and i'm not married. . Forget about teachers marrying teachers for a minute. . . You look at that wage and tell me that after 10 years in the same highly skilled job that required 4 years of training that it is ''outrageous'' . I think the most difficult part of the teachers' profession for you TippMan is the holidays but apart from the love of teaching the duty of care, the only other thing that's attracting graduates into our profession is the holidays. . .you reminded us all about the earning potential of couples who are teachers. . Just consider how much of a deduction hit that household this year with the levy on pensions and on earnings. . Give over your moaning, we've given enough this year already, we're giving a damn good service to the state and they're damm lucky. . . . The ONLY perk we have are the holidays

Yeah all 18 weeks of holidays not too mention off every saturday and sunday.

Its the primary teachers that really get up my nose though.
They just have it so handy and its not fare on the rest of us slaves.

bigbadbear

Tipp Man wrote: »

Just to throw a slightly different angle on it. The starting salary of a secondary school teacher with Masters is 43,500

Is there another profession in this country where you can earn that kind of starting salary at 23-24 years old??

If I had a masters I would be disgusted being in that area of pay after 5/6 years in college. Its not a great wage really.

Tootle wrote: »

I wont fight ya Herb;) I agree, I dont like Teacher bashing. I dont like any bashing actually.
The phrase you highlighted is not subjective its based on OECD averages so although I dont have the direct reference I'm fairly confident that what I've stated is fact (ok I accept the 'too long' bit being subjective:rolleyes:). Anyway nit picking aside, its not that I begrudge Teachers their holidays. If I wanted those holidays I would have been a teacher, but not for all the pay in the world would I be a secondary school teacher. My point is only that complaining about having to pay for a course as part of your professional development isn't really anything to moan about.

I'm pretty sure no teacher is moaning about this. This thread started when poodles said that teachers were taking the píss by getting a possible 3 days off in the year after paying to do 5 courses during their summer holidays.

Patsy fyre wrote: »

Yeah all 18 weeks of holidays not too mention off every saturday and sunday.

Its the primary teachers that really get up my nose though.
They just have it so handy and its not fare on the rest of us slaves.

Is this a sarcastic post? tone of voice doesn't come out on the internet.

bigbadbear

bigbadbear wrote: »

If I had a masters I would be disgusted being in that area of pay after 5/6 years in college. Its not a great wage really.

43k starting out? You're joking?
Are you still living in 2006?

bigbadbear

bluewolf wrote: »

43k starting out? You're joking?
Are you still living in 2006?

It's a decent/fairly good wage to start on but it's not :eek::eek:eye openingly big. I'm considering the take home wage of the teacher too.


A general point to note here is that teachers are already having their pay cut so it's not like they're getting away scot free or anything. I'm not even talking about the pension levy " which they are supposedly going to get back (very doubtful in my sceptical opinion) I think most teachers here are just defending themselves as they stand at the moment. After seeing the title "teachers taking the p!ss" it's understandable that they would defend themselves.

Feeded

Feeded wrote: »

as a post-primary teacher starting off on point 3 of the scale with a primary degree and h. Dip it's only possible to earn 38,995. . .with a masters in place of a primary degree . .39,773.

Din Taylor

Fizzical wrote: »

The 'pension levy' is not a contribution to a teacher's pension.

It has no relation to it - it is paid whether or not the teacher is entitled to a pension.

I believe that the levy is refunded if the teacher leaves the profession before being entitled to the pension.

Fizzical wrote: »

If the teacher is entitled to a pension the levy does not increase or decrease that pension.

Completely irrelevant I'm afraid. Just because the pension scheme wasn't funded by teachers beforehand doesn't mean that it will never be in the future. Beforehand the fund was obviously large enough to not require contributions from teachers. Good times. Unfortunately that is not the case any more and extra funding is needed. Why shouldn't the teachers pay for a huge benefit if there is a gap in funding?

Recently the final scheme in my workplace became underfunded and a 7.5% pa contribution was needed by scheme members. There were no complaints as people were just glad to still have a final salary pension.

Din Taylor

Din Taylor wrote: »

I believe that the levy is refunded if the teacher leaves the profession before being entitled to the pension.


Completely irrelevant I'm afraid. Just because the pension scheme wasn't funded by teachers beforehand doesn't mean that it will never be in the future. Beforehand the fund was obviously large enough to not require contributions from teachers. Good times. Unfortunately that is not the case any more and extra funding is needed. Why shouldn't the teachers pay for a huge benefit if there is a gap in funding?

Recently the final scheme in my workplace became underfunded and a 7.5% pa contribution was needed by scheme members. There were no complaints as people were just glad to still have a final salary pension.

Mm, chances are it could be up to 50% (or even more) of salary roll to actually fund the pensions, so 7.5% is tiny all told

bigbadbear

Fizzical wrote: »

The 'pension levy' is not a contribution to a teacher's pension.

If the teacher is entitled to a pension the levy does not increase or decrease that pension.

It cannot be seen as part funding that pension as then why does someone not entitled to a pension have to pay it?

It is an extra tax on some workers introduced to accrue more money to the government in a time when public opinion allowed it.

Din Taylor wrote: »

Completely irrelevant I'm afraid. Just because the pension scheme wasn't funded by teachers beforehand doesn't mean that it will never be in the future. Beforehand the fund was obviously large enough to not require contributions from teachers. Good times. Unfortunately that is not the case any more and extra funding is needed. Why shouldn't the teachers pay for a huge benefit if there is a gap in funding?

Recently the final scheme in my workplace became underfunded and a 7.5% pa contribution was needed by scheme members. There were no complaints as people were just glad to still have a final salary pension.

How is that irrelevant:pac: This is exaxtly what this thread is about. Now we know that the pension levy is simply a tax.

To summarise: the teachers are paying a huge levy tax that they weren't before and now their wages are frozen and are subject to a rake of conditions that they weren't before.

The fact is that cuts had to be made in the public sector. Maybe the cuts were a tad harsh and unexpected but cuts were essential to balancing the state's books. With these pay cuts teachers are after taking a real kick to the nuts so i think it would only be fair to back off a bit because it seems they're not taking the p!ss at all.

Maybe the thread should be changed to: "Teachers have longer holidays than most."
doesnt have the same ring to it.

Din Taylor

bluewolf wrote: »

Mm, chances are it could be up to 50% (or even more) of salary roll to actually fund the pensions, so 7.5% is tiny all told

Exactly.

Din Taylor

bigbadbear wrote: »

How is that irrelevant:pac: This is exaxtly what this thread is about. Now we know that the pension levy is simply a tax.

Irrelevant because the teachers were getting a huge benfit for free beforehand but due to funding issues this is no longer the case and now they have to pay for it.

I do feel sorry for people who have a sudden drop in their current income but I'm afraid that is life.

bigbadbear

Din Taylor wrote: »

Irrelevant because the teachers were getting a huge benfit for free beforehand but due to funding issues this is no longer the case and now they have to pay for it.

I do feel sorry for people who have a sudden drop in their current income but I'm afraid that is life.

Yeah agreed. That's kinda the way i feel. This said i think it's safe to say the phrase "Teachers are taking the p!ss" is harsh and inaccurate. I think after seeing all that was talked about in this thread you'd need to be a serious begrudger to still think they haven't had enough cuts to do us for another good while.

Dionysus

DebDynamite wrote: »

Summer holidays should ideally be only 6 weeks as it is in Britain.

Yes, and what a fine system it is there. The day the schools in this state are reduced to the level of the schools in huge swathes of Britain is the time when you should start teaching your children at home.

There are other countries to emulate in Europe, you know. Like Finland. Open your mind to them, please.

Dionysus

Tipp Man wrote: »

Just to throw a slightly different angle on it. The starting salary of a secondary school teacher with Masters is 43,500

Is there another profession in this country where you can earn that kind of starting salary at 23-24 years old??

This is, in fact, untrue. Here is the precise salary scale for secondary school teachers:

http://www.asti.ie/pay-and-conditions/pay/salary-scale/

The very most such a teacher could earn is €36,523 p.a. - and this assumes that he/she achieved the highest grade-payment category available.

patfol

astra2000 wrote: »

Yes I agree that teachers playa vital role in this country this is something that cant be denied. My point is though that lots of professions play an equally vital role and dont get anything close to this this time off, I have asked this question and not received any answers to it. Surely it is not too much to expect that they should have a few less weeks off during the summer months and that during this time they should take what ever courses are necessary to help them improve their teaching skills, hold some of the school year planning days and in the case of secondary teachers correcting and supervision of state exams honestly there is no justifying between 9 and 13 weeks off for summer alone.How ever I do not agree with the idea of teacher ran summer camps children teachers are there to teach not provide childcare. One of the teachers posting on here mentioned been bored and lazy and loses motivation during the summer surely this is not good for the soul? Would that pont alone not make you desire less holidays or are so caught up in getting one over on the dept of education that you have lost sight of this. again if anyone has a valid reason why teachers should continue to have so much longer hols than other hard working people I would love to hear them and as I already mentioned the fact that the kids are off does not mean there is no work thay can be carried out.

Firstly, I am a primary school teacher and I can honestly put my hand on my heart and say that I never met anyone in college who said that they had decided to study to be a teacher because of the long holidays. Everyone who stuck it out had a genuine love of kids and their education. We went into teacher training college straight from school so I think we hadn't internalised the fact that we'd be giving up school holidays by going out into the general non-teaching workforce. Does anyone actually think that at 18 years of age we were so forward thinking as to plan a career around a job that had extended holidays?
Secondly, I dare anyone to question the working hours of the teachers in my school. The kids go home at 2.45 and the teachers' carpark is still fairly full at 4.00 pm.
As a final point I always quote a colleague who came to work in our school as a language teacher straight from a job in A.O.L. She had a T.E.F.L. qualifiaction but no background in teaching. I was chatting to her one day and said it must be great for her to have such a short working day and to be finished so early and her reply was "Well I'm finished much earlier but I'm so wrecked I have to go to bed for a few hours when I get home. I'm much more tired than when I got home at 5 from A.O.L."
And as an adendum: I've never worked outside teaching so maybe this is not unprecedented but teachers' coffee/lunch breaks are mostly taken up with conferring about kids and updating fellow teachers with kids details/ needs/ etc.
I know everyone can't be tarred with same brush but it still bugs me when people post threads or pass comments that suggest teachers become teachers just for the benefits or the holidays. I would make one suggestion to the sceptical:
If you have kids, offer to help out on the school tour. Every year our helper parents come back from tours with an increased respect for teachers and the usual comment is "I don't know how you do it"
and if you don't have kids you have absolutuely no business commenting on this thread.

Tipp Man

patfol wrote: »

Secondly, I dare anyone to question the working hours of the teachers in my school. The kids go home at 2.45 and the teachers' carpark is still fairly full at 4.00 pm.

You see this is it in a nutshell, you are actually quoting that at 4 o clock there might still be some teachers working and saying it like it is some kind of achievement to be proud of or something

So I ask you when do you think the rest of us finish work??

Tipp Man

Feeded wrote: »

i have my pay slip in front of me so here goes. . . 1733.31 basic plus 47.37 h.dip allowance plus 188.50 degree allowance . Which comes to 1969.18 per fortnight gross. . . . . PAYE 252.31, PRSI 126.30, income levy 39.38, ASTI 13.10, 1.5 Sp&Ch 29.54, Pension Levy 129.61, Pension Contribution 66.22 . . The money going out equals 663.55 . . That comes to 1305.63 per fortnight into my hand. . .that's around 650 a week. . .i have a mortgage, i have expenses and i'm not married. . Forget about teachers marrying teachers for a minute. . . You look at that wage and tell me that after 10 years in the same highly skilled job that required 4 years of training that it is ''outrageous'' . I think the most difficult part of the teachers' profession for you TippMan is the holidays but apart from the love of teaching the duty of care, the only other thing that's attracting graduates into our profession is the holidays. . .you reminded us all about the earning potential of couples who are teachers. . Just consider how much of a deduction hit that household this year with the levy on pensions and on earnings. . Give over your moaning, we've given enough this year already, we're giving a damn good service to the state and they're damm lucky. . . . The ONLY perk we have are the holidays

The only perk you have is your holiday what a joke that is

How about the perk of not having to turn up in work till your first class so that could be 9 10 or 11 and leaving when your last class is finished. Most of the teachers I know finish very early at least 1 day a week and start late (after 9) at least 1 morning a week. Hell my best mate last year started at 11 on a Thursday and was finished by 2.30. If a teacher feels like it they only have to do 22 hours a week. Thats a nice little perk that you have so conveniently forgot about

How about the perk of having a gold plated silver lined GUARANTEED pension with the opportunity to take early retirement should you feel that way inclined, a pension that is completely immune from recession, stock market crashes etc. People in the Public sector are really clueless as to how much their pension is actually worth and what the rest of us actually have. The 100k or more lump sum on retirment which is tax free is also a nice little perk or have you forgotten about that as well

The fact that you never have to work more than 8 weeks before there is a holiday is also a nice little perk

You also conveniently forgot the TAX FREE little nixers that a lot of teachers are doing now, the study supervision, the grinds, the exams revision classes. None of this income is being declared to revenue by a single teacher in this country - that is basically tax evasion. So there is another little perk for ya

Tipp Man

Dionysus wrote: »

This is, in fact, untrue. Here is the precise salary scale for secondary school teachers:

http://www.asti.ie/pay-and-conditions/pay/salary-scale/

The very most such a teacher could earn is €36,523 p.a. - and this assumes that he/she achieved the highest grade-payment category available.

I had already acknowledged that I added in the Masters allowances as opposed to the difference, see post 351. However your amount is also wrong (teachers start at point 3 on the scale for some reason) See below for correct figure

Feeded wrote: »

Feeded wrote: »

as a post-primary teacher starting off on point 3 of the scale with a primary degree and h. Dip it's only possible to earn 38,995. . .with a masters in place of a primary degree . .39,773.

Tipp Man

bigbadbear wrote: »

It's a decent/fairly good wage to start on but it's not :eek::eek:eye openingly big. I'm considering the take home wage of the teacher too.

Are you nuts or have you lost the run of yourself competly. 39.5k the starting salary for a teacher with a masters is a huge huge starting salary and if you think otherwise then you are clearly deluded.

Try asking accountants, solicitors hell even junior doctors what the starting salary is and I can tell you for a fact that accountants at least will be on a starting salary of less than HALF of a teachers starting salary, solicitors are probably the same. Then factor in the hours that they are working for half the salary and the fact that they have to continue to study for a couple years whilst working for this half salary and then you see just how cushy the teachers have it

shore

Why don't you go back to college and become a teacher tipp man ? get yourself a nice pension and loads of holidays .

What profession are you in anyway ? You seem to have an awful lot of free time to whinge about teachers . How much do you earn and what are the benefits that come with your job ?

Stark

bigbadbear wrote: »

It's a decent/fairly good wage to start on but it's not :eek::eek:eye openingly big. I'm considering the take home wage of the teacher too.

Yes it bloody is. This kind of poormouthing is exactly the reason why people are getting pissed off with teachers at the moment. I think I've been quite civil so far and stated that I didn't begrudge anyone their salary and sympathise with people who've had their pay cut, but if you're going to tell me that you've a hard life only managing a 43k job straight out of college, then you can **** right off. There are people with 5 years experience in their fields who aren't on 43k yet. (Granted I know it's less now, but 43k is the figure you complained about, and even 39k which I think it stands at currently is still extremely good, especially in the current graduate market).

And everyone gets taxed no matter what their job so you can save the "but my take home pay is smaller than my gross pay" nonsense as well.

lily09

Primary teachers in Ireland work over 150 hours a year extra than the EU average(946-794 hours per year) and secondary teachers nearly 100 hours (735-655 hours per year) and is one of the highest amounts in the EU.The figures are petty similar for the OECD in 2007.But listen we can all spout the figures we want to support our own argument.

Tipp man your vitriol towards teaching is shocking. Yes the pay and conditions are very good there is no denying that, they are nowhere near deserving of the level of scorn you have displayed.

You do know that we are a necessary evil;);)

brambo

Tipp Man wrote: »

You see this is it in a nutshell, you are actually quoting that at 4 o clock there might still be some teachers working and saying it like it is some kind of achievement to be proud of or something

So I ask you when do you think the rest of us finish work??

I wouldn't say that it's an achievement, but I would like to point out that it is unpaid.

Stark

lily09 wrote: »

Primary teachers in Ireland work over 150 hours a year extra than the EU average(946-794 hours per year) and secondary teachers nearly 100 hours (735-655 hours per year) and is one of the highest amounts in the EU.

Jesus, my heart bleeds. That's like what, nearly 18 hours a week average you have to work?

You have to start digging upwards, fools!

To quote the Simpsons

lily09

OK again we are displaying a totally OTT reaction.
Anyway this is simply contact time.
How many hours a day would you like us to work.
Do these stats not show you that teachers in general all around the world only work these hours because this is what is seen as the amount of time the children can spend in school and the amount that their minds can take in in a day.

This is accepted educational practice and not something to simply to take the mick out of the Irish taxpayer.

Stark

lily09 wrote: »

This is accepted educational practice and not something to simply to take the mick out of the Irish taxpayer.

I know that. And I'm aware that there is a lot of work to be done outside of teaching time. But if you're going to poormouth about having to work long hours, again, people are going to get pissed off with you because everyone knows that taking everything into account (term overtime vs long holidays), the average hours over the year are definitely no worse than any standard office job.

I think your unions need to start putting some of those subs into hiring someone to help with PR.

lily09

Stark wrote: »

I know that. And I'm aware that there is a lot of work to be done outside of teaching time. But if you're going to poormouth about having to work long hours, again, people are going to get pissed off with you because the hours are definitely no worse than any standard office job when you take extra holidays and the like into account.

I didnt put on any poor mouth, i wont because that point has been done to death here and serves no purpose.
I just want to make the point that many people forget that the reason the hours are short and the summers long is because of the fact that we are not dealing with buisness people, customers, patients etc but little people that are not able to work the hours of an adult worker.

Tipp Man

shore wrote: »

Why don't you go back to college and become a teacher tipp man ? get yourself a nice pension and loads of holidays .

What profession are you in anyway ? You seem to have an awful lot of free time to whinge about teachers . How much do you earn and what are the benefits that come with your job ?

Ha ha I wish had loads of free time, I work between 50-60 hours every week as an accountant and have had 5 days annual leave so far this year - 2 of which were for funerals.

There is 1 simple reason that i don't become a teacher - dealing with a bunch of institutionalised and unionised teachers every day would drive me nuts. I am a firm believer in working hard and being rewarded accordingly, the unions ensure that whether you are the best or the worst teacher you get paid the same - that is completly against my fundamental principles of work. I would also hate to see myself become as institutionalised as teachers become and it seems to happen to all of them, whenever there is anything even a little out of the ordinary to do then it gets their back up, i mean I can't simply fathom the idea of how somebody working 22 hours a week has the sheer gaul to go on strike to demand pay for doing yard duty a couple of times a week - I simply can't comprehend how anybody would even dream of it.

So thats my reasons

Tipp Man

lily09 wrote: »

Primary teachers in Ireland work over 150 hours a year extra than the EU average(946-794 hours per year) and secondary teachers nearly 100 hours (735-655 hours per year) and is one of the highest amounts in the EU.The figures are petty similar for the OECD in 2007.But listen we can all spout the figures we want to support our own argument.

Tipp man your vitriol towards teaching is shocking. Yes the pay and conditions are very good there is no denying that, they are nowhere near deserving of the level of scorn you have displayed.

You do know that we are a necessary evil;);)

You conveniently forget that Irish teachers are far and away the highest paid teachers in Europe and probably the world - are ye really teaching our kids that much better than everywhere else - the dumbing down of the state exams shouldn't make ye think that ye are suddenly experts at teaching

For instance the starting salary of an Irish teacher is more than double that of a French teacher - are ye twice as good as french teachers? I have my doubts

As regards my "vitriol" towards teachers well I feel that as a taxpayer I have every right to question where my hard earned money is going. Why should i be working my 50-60 hours a week to fund the lifestyle of teachers? What gives you (teachers in general not you personally) the right to live the life of Reilly with 18 weeks holidays a year and a super pension to boot while the rest of us are working our ass off to pay for it?

What makes teachers any better than the bloody politicans of this country, at least there are only a couple of hundred of them robbing us, there's nearly 60 thousand teachers at it

Tipp Man

And also why am I being called bitter and vitriolic because i have the audacity to raise questions about a profession of nearly 60,000 people who are being paid huge amounts from taxpayers funds?

Would i be called bitter and vitrolic if i questioned politicians or bankers or property developers?

The simple fact of the matter is that nobody in any post on this thread has come anyway near justifing the terms and conditions that teachers enjoy - you can't defend the indefensible - apart from with lies and crap

So considering the mess the country is in I have every right to ask teachers what makes them so special that they have a better lifestyle than royalty

Mal-Adjusted

Being a teacher has better pay & perks that the rest of us. get over it and move on.

Tipp Man

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

Being a teacher has better pay & perks that the rest of us. get over it and move on.

Why don't we accept that Ivor Calley has huge expense claims and just get over it and move on

Are you prepared to let 60,000 people have better pay and conditions than anyone else in the country and just get over it and move on? If you are more fool you but then that typifies this country - no accountability or responsiblity and don't dare question how the public sector is spending 50bn of taxpayers money - money that we don't have

People are way to soft in this country and are the very reason that unions and running and ruining this country - no bloody backbone to stand up to them

Mal-Adjusted

Tipp Man wrote: »

Why don't we accept that Ivor Calley has huge expense claims and just get over it and move on

because he lied & cheated to get the money

Tipp Man wrote: »

Are you prepared to let 60,000 people have better pay and conditions than anyone else

Says it all right there. Typical Irish begrudgery. "They're paid more than I am! WHAAAAH!"

if it really bothers you so much, bring it up with your local TD.

lily09

Tipp man, maybe you would have more time off if you didnt spend your work time on the computer posting here.....i certainly wouldnt have the chance to do that.

astra2000

lily09 wrote: »

Tipp man, maybe you would have more time off if you didnt spend your work time on the computer posting here.....i certainly wouldnt have the chance to do that.

well now you have the whole summer off you have time!!!!!

lily09

Exactly and you all had plenty to say about that didnt you.....

Stark

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

Says it all right there. Typical Irish begrudgery. "They're paid more than I am! WHAAAAH!"

Well at one point the teachers were on strike because they wanted higher taxes on everyone in order to preserve that pay gap. When it was finally rammed home how futile that plan was from an economic point of view, they focused their attention instead on shifting the pain onto other public sector workers under the guise of "we're special cases don't you know, we deal with children and surely you're not going to tell us that you hate children?". Workers who generally get paid an awful lot less despite similar qualifications, experience and workload. The high salary is fine when the money is there, but when you start demanding that money is taken off everyone else so you can preserve the pay gap you have over them, then that's a problem.

shore

Tipp Man wrote: »

Ha ha I wish had loads of free time, I work between 50-60 hours every week as an accountant and have had 5 days annual leave so far this year - 2 of which were for funerals.

There is 1 simple reason that i don't become a teacher - dealing with a bunch of institutionalised and unionised teachers every day would drive me nuts. I am a firm believer in working hard and being rewarded accordingly, the unions ensure that whether you are the best or the worst teacher you get paid the same - that is completly against my fundamental principles of work. I would also hate to see myself become as institutionalised as teachers become and it seems to happen to all of them, whenever there is anything even a little out of the ordinary to do then it gets their back up, i mean I can't simply fathom the idea of how somebody working 22 hours a week has the sheer gaul to go on strike to demand pay for doing yard duty a couple of times a week - I simply can't comprehend how anybody would even dream of it.

So thats my reasons

fair enough but please do not tar every teacher with the same brush . Alot of us have fundemental principles of work similiar to yours . Also , there are alot of teachers who are not receiving the perks of the job and are struggling to make ends meet . Plently of Irish teachers have been forced to emigrate to find work .

Fizzical

Tipp Man wrote: »

And also why am I being called bitter and vitriolic because i have the audacity to raise questions about a profession of nearly 60,000 people who are being paid huge amounts from taxpayers funds?

Would i be called bitter and vitrolic if i questioned politicians or bankers or property developers?

The simple fact of the matter is that nobody in any post on this thread has come anyway near justifing the terms and conditions that teachers enjoy - you can't defend the indefensible - apart from with lies and crap

So considering the mess the country is in I have every right to ask teachers what makes them so special that they have a better lifestyle than royalty

lol

Tipp Man

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

because he lied & cheated to get the money
.

And teachers (via their unions) have bullied and threatened and striked their way into getting their terms and conditions and no opposition was put up against it

Same bloody thing

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

Says it all right there. Typical Irish begrudgery. "They're paid more than I am! WHAAAAH!"

Couldn't be more wrong there my friend my annual tax is paying a teachers salary so i want to see it earned not just given to them

Tipp Man

Fizzical wrote: »

lol

great response - now i see why yer worth the money

Mal-Adjusted

Tipp Man wrote: »

And teachers (via their unions) have bullied and threatened and striked their way into getting their terms and conditions and no opposition was put up against it

Same bloody thing

*facepalm* No, it's not :rolleyes:


[QUOTE=Tipp Man;67179138
Couldn't be more wrong there my friend my annual tax is paying a teachers salary so i want to see it earned not just given to them[/QUOTE]

No, i'm right. you said, "Are you prepared to let 60,000 people have better pay and conditions than anyone else in the country"

that's nothing more than throwing a hissy-fit at someone else having better working conditions & pay. Like the kids say these days, build a bridge and get over it

Tipp Man

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

*facepalm* No, it's not :rolleyes:




No, i'm right. you said, "Are you prepared to let 60,000 people have better pay and conditions than anyone else in the country"

that's nothing more than throwing a hissy-fit at someone else having better working conditions & pay. Like the kids say these days, build a bridge and get over it

Your clearly an . and the reason why the public sector has ran riot in this country for the last 10 years - typical of the Bertie school of economics, "here have some more money, will that keep you quite, no? have some more, we won't ask any questions expect any accountability or responsibility in return, I hope i haven't offended you oh beared great"

Its no wonder the country is in the mess it is when people who don't really give a damn get an equal vote as somebody who has the sheer gaul to question how taxpayers money is spent, is democracy all its cracked up to be I wonder

lily09

Tipp man it is impossible to debate anything rational with you, as an accountant you are obviously blinkered by the reality that life is not all about facts and figures. Teachers provide a service, it is not as simple as saying my tax pays for your wages so therefore I can determine your pay and conditions. My taxes help contribute to Ireland being able to sustain a very low corperation tax but I wouldnt demand that the CEOs of companies should only get paid what I want them too.

Now lets call a spade a spade here, accountants arent badly paid either, I wouldnt begrudge you one penny of that money you put the work in and are renumerated properly.

gurramok

lily09 wrote: »

Now lets call a spade a spade here, accountants arent badly paid either, I wouldnt begrudge you one penny of that money you put the work in and are renumerated properly.

Accountants are not paid out of the public purse, teachers are.

lily09

Accountants dont provide a public service, teachers do.

Fizzical

Tipp Man, you obviously earn more than any teacher and, as obviously, think you're worth it. That's ok. As you wouldn't have my job, I wouldn't have yours.

But you seem to have issues with the concept of 'teacher' per se, in that in your opinion it's not a professional job worth a good salary. I think that's the crux of your argument? To you, teaching is a lower order service job and should be paid and organised accordingly. Hence your anger that unionisation has achieved a good salary and that tradition has preserved good conditions.

Lots of people don't agree with you that teaching is a lower order service job, including those people who have actually done the job. Don't be so angry about that!

But take heart - people of your opinion are increasingly vocal and increasingly being listened to. And teaching may return to what it was years ago - teachers being poorly paid and badly treated servants of the then management in schools with no security of tenure. That's where the unionisation came from, by the way.

(And the teacher in me can't resist - the word you're looking for is 'gall'!)

Mal-Adjusted

Tipp Man wrote: »

Your clearly an .

Speak English, man!