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Tenants gone, house filthy, rent unpaid - options?
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Grizzly 45 wrote: »
ESB,Gas,Cable,etc.
Keep it in the landlords name,and get a substantial refundable deposit.That way if they dont pay the bill,they use up their deposit.Once thats gone,you can cut off the facilities if they are not paying.
Cleaning deposit.
Non refundable.No matter how much somone cleans a place or keeps it clean.You still have to clean it[paint,it repair worn and torn things]So figure how much two days worth of work for you or a man will cost for this deposit.
You are not entitled to take a "cleaning deposit". The tenants can cause normal wear and tear and it does not cost them a cent. As a matter of courtesy the dwelling should be clean when leaving, but you have no basis for charging a "non-refundable" deposit as a little boon for your end of tenancy party. You need to read a copy of the RTA 2004, and I hope I never meet you as a landlord. You are letting your house/apartment out as a professional business - try acting like a professional. You might be treated as such in return. I thought this sort of backward, dark-ages, scamster landlordism was on the wane, but I suppose there are always a few.
Also, I have yet to be told of any good reason for keeping bills in the landlord's name. Your name, your responsiblity. Tenant's name, tenant's responsiblity. The ESB or another provider cannot hold you accountable for a debt to another.
On the garden issue: I thought there was some sort of common sense arrangement where a landlord either provided a mower and the tenant was responsible, or else provided nothing and did it themselves?0 -
There is no problem that I can see with requiring the tenant to maintain the gardens. However, the landlord is going to be the one with a problem if this is not done. I don't really think it matters what date the lease was signed.
The rationale for this law was that rented houses were being left completely unkempt and there was no clear responsibility for it. Previously there was no particular responsibility on anybody for the upkeep of gardens and frontage.0 -
I would be extremely cautious about cutting off utilities in relation to a dispute with a tenant, no matter how the payment is structured.0
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You are not entitled to take a "cleaning deposit". The tenants can cause normal wear and tear and it does not cost them a cent.
Right! So you as a tenant will paint it?Hoover it properly ,wash the windows,clean all fixtures and fittings etc???Right sure you will!!!As a matter of courtesy the dwelling should be clean when leaving, but you have no basis for charging a "non-refundable" deposit as a little boon for your end of tenancy party.
There is clean and "clean".
In fairness I'd rather rent to forgeniers than the Irish.They have a better concept of renting,not to mind personal hygeine and what their responsibilities areas tenants, unlike the Irish,who just seem to be happy if on rent allowance to just live in their own filth!
This BTW isnt bias but experiance of over 30 years renting property.
Got one thank you very much,and it doesnt say FK all about it.I could be sneaky and just build it into the rent deposit,but I like to be honest with my dealings with people and tell them why.You need to read a copy of the RTA 2004, and I hope I never meet you as a landlord. You are letting your house/apartment out as a professional business - try acting like a professional.
Well with your attitude I wouldnt rent anything to you .Maybe you should move out from your parents bedroom and actually try renting somthing in the real world ??:rolleyes:
Professionalism works both ways..You might be treated as such in return. I thought this sort of backward, dark-ages, scamster landlordism was on the wane, but I suppose there are always a few.
More like taken advantage of !Presonally I would love to see a bad tenant register that is the norm in Europe.You total a place welshout on the rent etc.Your name is on the list and you will be living in a cardboard box under a bridge until you have sorteed out the rent arrears and damage.Holland is big on this.Proper order too!Also, I have yet to be told of any good reason for keeping bills in the landlord's name. Your name, your responsiblity. Tenant's name, tenant's responsiblity. The ESB or another provider cannot hold you accountable for a debt to another.
REALLLLYYYYYYY?????? Then you would know if there is three default accounts at an address over a 3year period.The ESB wont reconnect the power without a substantial deposit of the property owner.Hence the reason I keep it in my name.Too many smart asses have stung us over the years.Thats a good enough reason for me.
Rather do it myself.No point in providing somthing and the tenant is too lazy,couldnt be arsed,or deliberatly breaks the provided equipment.On the garden issue: I thought there was some sort of common sense arrangement where a landlord either provided a mower and the tenant was responsible, or else provided nothing and did it themselves?"If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."
Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "
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antoinolachtnai wrote: »I would be extremely cautious about cutting off utilities in relation to a dispute with a tenant, no matter how the payment is structured.
You are not cutting it off .The power company is cutting off YOUR account to the property that you own for non payment.If the tenant didnt pay you and used up their power bill deposit,and they want to sit in the dark...No skin off your nose.They pay you,you pay the power company on their behalf,they have light.Onus is on tenant paying ,and you paying your bill on that property with the money given to you for that bill.If you go and mis use the money given to you,then you have broken a contract,and the tenant has a comeback on you.Simple."If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."
Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "
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if the power company cuts off power for non-payment on an account in your name that is affecting YOUR credit rating with that company - and much like a tenant they won't shut it off just like that, they will allow the account to go into arrears. You'll be in a worse position.
Furthermore, since as a landlord you are able to offset expenses against tax paid, cleaning costs/repair of normal wear and tear is NOT the responsibility of the tenant. As a professional, you have to account for the fact that you can't just sit back and let the money roll in - some ongoing investment will always be necessary. Particularly more if you can't seem to keep any of your tenants happy and they all move out at the end of every 12 month period.0 -
Absolutely agree Xiney. Grizzly I'm disgusted at your attitude. I can't believe that you don't think you have any responsibility for the upkeep and management of your property - this includes painting, repairs etc. These are not the responsibility of the tenant and to be honest I'd be horrified if I had you as a landlord.
I as a tenant make sure to keep any apartment I live in exceptionally clean, and I submit to quarterly inspections etc. I would expect the same courtesy back, ie landlord making prompt repairs, making sure the place is freshly painted and spotless before we move in. That's the landlord's responsibility as surely it's in his/her interest to rent the place out to good tenants, not just use them as money spinners.
I hope the recession and as such the massive availability of good quality rental properties has put paid to tight-fisted, mean landlords like you.0 -
Grizzly 45 wrote: »Right! So you as a tenant will paint it?Hoover it properly ,wash the windows,clean all fixtures and fittings etc???Right sure you will!!!
There is clean and "clean".
That's your job, for YOU to pay for. All the tenants have to do is keep it reasonably clean, not paint it etc! How on earth do you justify taking money from tenants for that stuff?Got one thank you very much,and it doesnt say FK all about it.I could be sneaky and just build it into the rent deposit,but I like to be honest with my dealings with people and tell them why.
Well with your attitude I wouldnt rent anything to you .Maybe you should move out from your parents bedroom and actually try renting somthing in the real world ??:rolleyes:
Professionalism works both ways..
I've been renting for over 8 years now and have had some real a**holes for landlords, but never paid a non-refundable 'cleaning deposit'.More like taken advantage of !Presonally I would love to see a bad tenant register that is the norm in Europe.You total a place welshout on the rent etc.Your name is on the list and you will be living in a cardboard box under a bridge until you have sorteed out the rent arrears and damage.Holland is big on this.Proper order too!
Tenants also have many more rights on the continent, generally.0 -
Since December 1st 2009 it has been a legal requirement for landlords to maintain the gardens of a rented property.
OK - sesna and ken brady - I retract my previous statement referring to the garden upkeep. I'm not even sure where this was posted as it is news to me now, but note has been made. However, like other landlords here, I too agree that is ridiculous for a ll to be responsible for maintaining gardens every 7-10 days or so especially when the upkeep of a house is usually left to the tenant. If you're renting an apartment it's a different story as I believe communal areas and gardens are upkept with the funds from the yearly fee that is charged in most complexes. That said, any LL who keeps an eye on a property would know if it is being maintained or not so that it does not become an issue for the surrounding neighbours/area. Going forward with any new lease I would have something agreed upon in a lease stating who is responsible for what. Would this be allowed and cover this situation?Anyone with any sort of job was able to go "out there" and buy a property. Im not envious that I dont have a huge burden of negative equity around my neck now.
Sesna, have to disagree with you on this one. While I can agree that there were some ignorant people who purchased property and have a huge burden of negative equity around their necks now, there are quite a few who thought things through. Those who bought an investment property when prices were good/reasonable (pre CT) & they could afford it (and still can), who are looking forward to a solid investment for retirement and are not in negative equity and act as professional LL's who provide good accommodation to tenants dealing with any situations/repairs that come up. The whole point of the OP's point is that he/she had a house let out in good condition and ended up with one that needs major decorating done to it before it can be let out again, is stuck with bills & unpaid rent and is fed up with the system that some people appear to be riding and getting away with it, and I agree with him/her that they should be stopped.0 -
Sesna, have to disagree with you on this one. While I can agree that there were some ignorant people who purchased property and have a huge burden of negative equity around their necks now, there are quite a few who thought things through. Those who bought an investment property when prices were good/reasonable (pre CT) & they could afford it (and still can), who are looking forward to a solid investment for retirement and are not in negative equity and act as professional LL's who provide good accommodation to tenants dealing with any situations/repairs that come up. The whole point of the OP's point is that he/she had a house let out in good condition and ended up with one that needs major decorating done to it before it can be let out again, is stuck with bills & unpaid rent and is fed up with the system that some people appear to be riding and getting away with it, and I agree with him/her that they should be stopped.
I dont have a property in negative equity. Im fortunate to have a deposit saved and could buy a house tomorrow if I wanted. I'm grateful I'm not stuck like many unfortunate people (I certainly wouldn't call them ignorant as you do) in shoe box apartments, only to have the government stating nobody forced them to buy, all while FF banks such as Anglo are given blank cheques to the tune of billions. Must be sickening having no prospect of upgrading or moving. Also sickening given we have several Oireachtas transcripts of FF TD's and senators proclaiming there was never a better time to buy property (in mid-2006 - 2007)
In your post, don't forget to include the context of a "fcuk you" from the OP for making some points about a friend who had difficulty with tenants not paying rent for 9 months (seems to be removed now), and your assertion that any points made by me were borne out of envy of not having bought my own property (and my being on "social" :rolleyes:). Seems like the main complaint outlined from the OP related to bins and rubbish being left in the dwelling. Nasty thing for the tenants to do, but nothing a few hours wouldn't sort out.:cool:
Also, as stated I think the law in this country is fairly useless for protecting tenants (from scam artist landlords not returning desposits with valid reason, not providing PPS number for rent relief etc). Also separately it's pretty useless for landlords, especially when rent is not being paid and a lengthy, cumbersome court order procedure has to be processed for eviction to occur.0 -
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Thanks to all for your comments/advise - whether I agree with it or not, it's good to see other peoples experiences/points of view.
Our situation is, we didn't rush out and buy to let, we moved to a new home and retained or original house as an investment. It has a front and back garden, quite large back garden,which I supply a lawnmower but do expect the tenants to maintain the outside. When we let the house originally, we went through a letting agency and the lease document they drew up included upkeep of the gardens. Anyway, that's just a requirement we have - maybe other landlords are different.
I think we're conventional enough in that we ask for a months rent for a security deposit and rent monthly in advance by DD - no non-refundable deposits or anything.
I don't expect tenants to pay for painting etc - that's our responsibility. But, I wouldn't expect to have to paint it every year. We had 5 people living in the property for over 3 years and they left it immaculate. Normal wear and tear on the carpets etc. but that's to be expected. We refunded their full deposit, minus outstanding gas bill - by agreement with the tenants (they were leaving for Poland the morning they vacated the property and wanted to stay the night before). We inspected the property the night before, paid their deposit and they left the next morning - no problems. They left no unpaid bills and I would have them back in a heartbeat.
My, possibly naive, view is that we provide tenants with a fully furnished property, very well maintained and we expect them to do two things - pay their rent on time and keep the place (allowing for normal wear and tear) as they found it.
There are so many things wrong with how this is unfolding, yet I as the landlord seem to have absolutely no rights or support to ensure the tenants side of the bargain is honored. The leave without notice of terminating the lease, have outstanding rent, outstanding utility bills, leave the place filthy, have fraudulently used social welfare rent allowance for other purposes - and yet social welfare will continue to give them rent allowance against another property where they will probably leave it under the same circumstances.
I as the landlord cannot get contact details from any agency, the guards will not get involved, the social welfare will not take them to task for the fraud and even if we went to the Nth degree through PRTB and got a tribunal decision, we're never likely to get our money. This system is wrong on so many levels - why wouldn't someone be on the dole, claiming these benefits and enjoying the protection of the state versus working and contributing. God help the next TD to land on my doorstep looking for a vote!
Anyway, I don't think we have any choice but to take this to its logical conclusion, if for noting else but to get it listed on PRTB and potentially save some other landlord from taking on these scumbags.
Sensa - if you read what I wrote - my gripe is not only the state of the place - it's the apparent immunity these a-holes have from being held accountable and the evident bias of legislation in favor of the tenants. Tenants hold all the cards - if a landlord won't play ball on rent allowance/rent reliefs etc. the tenants have avenues to explore. I, on the other, have nowhere to turn to recoup my unpaid rent and extraordinary clean-up costs. I also have a property off the market while I clean up their sh1t.
Anyway, I'd really like to hear from other landlords who've gone through the PRTB disputes resolution process - anyone have experience of that?
Cheers0 -
Correction: nothing a weekend won't sort out, with a skip, a shovel, the possibility of having to replace furniture due to mould and for hygienic reasons, of having to fully air the place out, to ensure that there are no rats or insects that this sort of crap tends to attract. Not to mention scrubbing and repainting the walls which he had gotten a painter to do a nice job on.Nasty thing for the tenants to do, but nothing a few hours wouldn't sort out.:cool:
We're not talking of a few hours of elbow grease that you need to do after a "good" tenant leaves, we're talking about cleaning the entire place after scumbags have infested it. And that takes time and money. Money that the OP will never see again.
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Again, file a report with the Gardai about the missing TV. Get one of them, and if they don't want criminal charges pressed against them, I'm sure they'll be only too happy to give you the addresses of the others.0 -
Grizzly 45 wrote: »You are not entitled to take a "cleaning deposit". The tenants can cause normal wear and tear and it does not cost them a cent.
Right! So you as a tenant will paint it?Hoover it properly ,wash the windows,clean all fixtures and fittings etc???Right sure you will!!!
There is clean and "clean".
Your tenant does not have to paint it, nor pay for it to be painted unless there is cause for saying the walls have been dirtied above normal wear and tear. Painting or paying for painting is way outside any tenant's obligation. That you feel this sense of entitlement shows the regard you hold your tenants in. They should be damn glad to have the place to live in, ingrates! In short, a tenant does not have to make the dwelling “clean”. Just clean.Got one thank you very much,and it doesnt say FK all about it.
You need to look harder:
“Section 12.1. “(d) subject to subsection (4), return or repay promptly any deposit paid by the tenant to the landlord on entering into the
agreement for the tenancy or lease,”
He aforementioned subsection (4) outlines the conditions under which return of deposit may not be necessary:(4) Subsection (1)(d) applies and has effect subject to the following
provisions:
(a) no amount of the deposit concerned shall be required to be
returned or repaid if, at the date of the request for return or
repayment, there is a default in—
(i) the payment of rent and the amount of rent that is in
arrears is equal to or greater than the amount of the
deposit, or
(ii) compliance with section 16(f) and the amount of the costs
that would be incurred by the landlord, were he or she
to take them, in taking such steps as are reasonable for
the purposes of restoring the dwelling to the condition
mentioned in section 16(f) is equal to or greater than the
amount of the deposit,
(b) where, at the date of the request for return or repayment, there is
a default in the payment of rent or compliance with section
16(f) and subparagraph (i) or (ii), as the case may be, of
paragraph (a) does not apply, then there shall only be required to be returned or repaid under subsection
(1)(d) the difference between the amount of rent that is in
arrears or, as appropriate, the amount of the costs that would
be incurred in taking steps of the kind referred to in paragraph
(a)(ii).
Section 16(f) as mentioned above outlines tenant obligations. The key part is the first section, most notably “but there shall be disregarded…”.(f ) not do any act that would cause a deterioration in the condition
the dwelling was in at the commencement of the tenancy,
but there shall be disregarded, in determining whether this
obligation has been complied with at a particular time, any
deterioration in that condition owing to normal wear and
tear, that is to say wear and tear that is normal having regard
to—
(i) the time that has elapsed from the commencement of the
tenancy,
(ii) the extent of occupation of the dwelling the landlord
must have reasonably foreseen would occur since that
commencement, and
(iii) any other relevant matters,
Some wear and tear to a dwelling over time, such as dirtied walls, is unavoidable, and is not grounds for deposit retention. There it is in plain English.
Even simpler still is this, from the PRTB’s explanatory notes on Deposit Refund:Deposit Refund
Tenants are entitled to a refund of the deposit paid at the commencement of the tenancy
where there is no rent owing in respect of the tenancy and there is no damage to the dwelling
beyond normal wear and tear at the end of the tenancy. Landlords are required to refund the
deposit promptly less any deductions in respect of outstanding rent and damage in excess of
normal wear and tear.In fairness I'd rather rent to forgeniers than the Irish.
Yeah, I get that impression. But I doubt it’s for the reasons you outline. I’m sure you are quite adept at picking vulnerable tenants to scam with your cleaning deposit racket, and whatever else you cook up. How people fall for it I don’t know, particularly with so much rental accommodation around.
The Act itself and the explanatory notes can be found here: http://www.prtb.ie/act.htm0 -
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Guys- Calm down, post in a factual manner and do not attack fellow forum users. This is the last warning I'm going to post on this thread.
Regards,
SMcCarrick0 -
Raise a dispute with the PRTB and claim reimbursement for incorrect notice period and outstanding rent.SwampThing wrote: »the tenants have left, without notice - There is [..] rent outstanding.
No options - you cannot claim for cleaning.SwampThing wrote: »The house is like a squat - filthy! Flies all over waste food, every room completely filthy, bins left full inside and out - just horrific. What are my options?
Were all the bills in the tenants' names? If so, just get them changed back to yours - you cannot be charged for something you were not responsible for.SwampThing wrote: »they've left the bins, ESB and Gas unpaid
Do you know the washing machine was broken deliberately? If so, raise a dispute with the PRTB and claim reimbursement for its repair.SwampThing wrote: »broken the washing machine
Open a case with the Guards.SwampThing wrote: »stolen a portable TV
You cannot claim for cleaning. But if you need to get pest control in (if the flies are laying eggs in the soft furnishings, for example) then raise a dispute with the PRTB and claim reimbursement for pest control costs.SwampThing wrote: »left food in the presses, fridge - the house is alive with flies (and whatever else).
As I already posted, this is your responsibility. Nothing you can do. You cannot put a clause in a lease that diminishes a tenant's rights under the RTA. You cannot claim for any money you have to spend restoring the garden to its previous state.SwampThing wrote: »The garden is like a jungle.
PRTB will pay nothing - they will enter a judgment which may or not be be heeded, as other posters have said.SwampThing wrote: »What's the best result we can get from the PTRB - will they pay the outstanding rent, cover costs of damage, chase them for the money - how does it work.
You will only be wasting more money if you involve a solicitor - the PRTB is there to assist you with these issues (everyone has an opinion on whether or not they're helpful). Save your money - you'll spend enough on getting the property back to a habitable standard.SwampThing wrote: »As for the solicitor - I have to do something.
Things you can claim reimbursement for with the PRTB:
- insufficient notice period
- rent arrears
- vacancy period between when tenants left and when you can get the property rented again (assuming, of course that the old tenant's lease would still have been valid)
difference between the new rent achieved and the rent the old tenants were paying (if old tenant's lease would still have been valid)
- repair to damaged furniture, fixtures and fittings
Itemise everything in the PRTB dispute that you have an issue with, but only claim for what you are entitled to reimbursement for. And make sure to take photos (with dates) and submit them with the dispute application. Best of luck!0 -
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i thought the same. My father rents out his house and was told by the letting agency that he had to supply a lawnmower to the tenants. My father bought a garden shed and lawn mower. The tenants maintain the garden.On the garden issue: I thought there was some sort of common sense arrangement where a landlord either provided a mower and the tenant was responsible, or else provided nothing and did it themselves?0 -
Oh btw sesna, any standard lease agreement says that the tenant is responsible for the upkeep of the gardens so its not an unreasonable expectation.
no, the tenant is responsile for the keeping the inside of the domicile tidy and clean. the garden is for the landlord to maintain. the tenant does not usaullz have a lwan mower. as another poster pointed out manz landlords just want to make money from the property and do not maintain it.0 -
i thought the same. My father rents out his house and was told by the letting agency that he had to supply a lawnmower to the tenants. My father bought a garden shed and lawn mower. The tenants maintain the garden.
Well that is the "common sense" rule, but the law is different. If you provide the tenants with a lawnmower and shed and they tell you they're not going to maintain the garden, it's still the LL's responsibility to maintain it. But there are very few tenants who would want the LL turning up once a week during the summer months to mow the lawn and weed the beds, so most tenants are happy to oblige (probably about 10 times a year rather than the 20 or so it really needs).0 -
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no, the tenant is responsile for the keeping the inside of the domicile tidy and clean. the garden is for the landlord to maintain. the tenant does not usaullz have a lwan mower. as another poster pointed out manz landlords just want to make money from the property and do not maintain it.
The landlord has a legal obligation to ensure the exterior of the property- to include the garden- is tidy and in a good state of repair. He/she may do this by any means they so choose. If they state in the lease for a property that this is the duty of the tenant- and the tenant is satisfied to sign the lease- the landlord has then legally abdicated his/her obligation to the tenant. They may be pursued under the 2009 Act- however they would have a reasonable defence- even if it is a civil agreement.0 -
SwampThing wrote: »
Anyway, I'd really like to hear from other landlords who've gone through the PRTB disputes resolution process - anyone have experience of that?
Yes, I'm sorry to say I have plenty of experience with it. You've already had lots of advice about putting all of the correct documentation together along with date stamped pics etc. You might also consider getting statements from others who can testify to the condition of the property before the tenants moved in.
Be prepared for this to be a very lengthy process. If your case requires more than the adjudication through an appeal to a tribunal hearing you can be looking at well in excess of 12 months for the events to play out.
The PRTB has a well earned reputation for being tenant-friendly. You will need to be very well prepared to be able to prove your case but despite that I strongly recommend that you pursue your case so that you establish yourself with the PRTB as a reputable and reasonable landlord.
Good luck with it.0 -
smccarrick wrote: »The landlord has a legal obligation to ensure the exterior of the property- to include the garden- is tidy and in a good state of repair. He/she may do this by any means they so choose. If they state in the lease for a property that this is the duty of the tenant- and the tenant is satisfied to sign the lease- the landlord has then legally abdicated his/her obligation to the tenant. They may be pursued under the 2009 Act- however they would have a reasonable defence- even if it is a civil agreement.
If the tenant has signed such a contract, and the garden is left in an unkempt fashion, could the deposit be used to put it right?0 -
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If the tenant has signed such a contract, and the garden is left in an unkempt fashion, could the deposit be used to put it right?
Strictly speaking- no- it would be treated as a seperate civil matter between the landlord at the tenant, and the cessation of the lease. In practice- it probably would be used for this purpose?0 -
So the landlord could bring the tenant to court (rather than PRTB) for breach of contract?0
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Join Date:Posts: 30620
So the landlord could bring the tenant to court (rather than PRTB) for breach of contract?
It is my understanding that it would be a civil matter between the landlord and the tenant at that stage- and would not be covered under provisions governing tenancy law. Whether it would be worth anyone's while is an entirely different story. I don't believe precedence exists thus far.0 -
to get back to the first step, is there really no possibility of finding the tenants?
are there any neighbours which might know anything and which you can ask?
you said they left much stuff/rubbish, is there anything inbetween that gives a sign where they could be now?
It's a small country and maybe they didn't move that far away?
And isn't it a bit of murphies law, or rule of live: we always see each other twice...
But think it might be worth an effort to try to track them down anyway...then you can see what you can do next with them...:D0 -
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