Metro North Investment???

syklops

astrofool wrote: »

He'd take the int'l slots, shut the airport and have them fly out of another airport. Ryanair have been reducing the slots from Shannon for years.

O'leary doesn't do anything without a reason. Was he not reducing slots in Shannon because of the increases in charges?

If he owned the Airport he wouldn't have to worry about that. Shannon could become, by all intents and purposes a Ryanair Terminal, and could become the Hub of the transport network.

Shannon has massive management problems, which is partly why it is dying. It is crazy that parking at Shannon costs more than at Dublin.

Put some cost-cutting strategies in there, along with talented management, and it could make Dublin look like the poor cousin. Not the other way round like it is now.

liammur

I believe shannon management were offerning ryanair a good deal on charges etc, but you are right about car park charges etc.

I think the real reason ryanair left shannon, was the recession hit limerick region probably the hardest in the country, and most of those flights were to malaga etc. Never sustainable in a downturn.

CptMackey

murphaph wrote: »

How do you figure that the money spent on Luas (I presume that's what you mean) was a waste?

Luas (both lines, disconnected from each other as they are) is incredibly succesful. It should be built upon.

Most of the land MN will pass under is already developed btw. and a lot more of it is under the airports safety zone so will never be developed.

Are you also against the Interconnector project? even though it passes almost exclusively under already heavily developed land?

Its a waste of money full stop. There are plenty of other things that need doing. Such as the regeneration of inner city areas in Dublin and In Limerick for example.

Just look at the M50. There should be no development near it like there is. But yet there is even tho it causes crazy congestion.

The luas is grand never had an issue with it.
Dublin will always get what it wants even tho all cork needs is two fly overs on the link road to ease congestion considerably and we are still waiting sense the Luts plan which was supposed to be implemented in the 90's

liammur

I would say the metro is like having a dessert. I'm not against it in principle.

But we need a dinner first folks, and as that guy colm mccarthy says
'we're bust'

Pete_Cavan

liammur wrote: »

I would say the metro is like having a dessert. I'm not against it in principle.

But we need a dinner first folks, and as that guy colm mccarthy says
'we're bust'

Please read the thread before jumping in and dragging up issues that have already been dealt with. Plenty of people have already said this is a waste of money, this is just an opinion and nobody has presented any facts to support this other than "€6bn is a lot for one project". The RPA have already said the tenders are coming in around the €2bn mark and the only reason they are letting people say it will cost €6bn is so when the contract is signed for €2bn everyone will think it is great value. With the motorway network nearing completion there is no other project (apart from dart underground) which will be as beneficial to this country as MN. And that is a terrible analogy, if metro north is a dessert then what would you consider to be a dinner?

liammur

We're all agreed it's a huge sum of money. That was my point!

I'd prefer to see the money go into the real economy, i.e. research and development projects, upgrade the hospitals, schools etc. We have kids all over the country in leaking prefabs.

daithicarr

a modern public transport is the real economy, it probably has one of the fastest impacts on the real economy.

liammur

Under transport 21, a light rail system was proposed for cork and galway, and shannon to limerick. This was all fine under the 'bertie ahern' school of economics. But as george hook says in the ad, 'sadly we're no longer all millionaires......'

We need to get real and fast.

unit 1

murphaph wrote: »

Sorry, but that is pie in the sky rubbish.

If Ireloand wants to have a hub airport, transfering between terminals will need to be a bit quicker than 1.5 hours FFS!

If michael o leary brought you to shannon and said it was dublin as "it's only an hour on the train" (stanstead anyone) people would call him a genius.

liammur

There's an element of truth in that.

But overall i do agree that concept would not work.

Sleepy

Eh, does that not make the argument for an underground in Dublin?

Stansted works because you can get around London quickly and easily on the Underground. If Shannon was to be used in a similar fashion, not only would you need a fast link train from that airport to Dublin and an underground network which could take you anywhere in Dublin you needed to get to in a short duration?

liammur

I'm saying that idea with Shannon wouldn't work at all. It has to be a stand alone airport. The airport is in serious decline imo.
Where i agreed with the above poster is in relation to M O Leary.

zootroid

Anyway, back on topic. There was a letter to the editor of the independent on Sunday, from someone in Sligo saying the metro would be a waste of money, and instead called for the money to be invested, among other things, in rail around Sligo!!

This is not the time for Metro North. After we recover from this Irish manmade economic slump, perhaps it can be reassessed.

But the €5bn-plus for Metro-North must be spent for what we need now: more and refurbished primary schools, the north-west rail, nationwide broadband and purchase of medical diagnostic equipment for all hospitals.

You say it won't happen.

I say it will happen if all rural and western voters send a letter to their TDs and senators of the four political parties telling them you will not vote for them if they support and vote for Metro North but spend the money on jobs for the items mentioned.

Call it civil disobedience by mail. it will work, but only if voters of all parties take action.

Politicians of all parties want to stay in office.

This is not a request to change a voter's party preference, it is a request to do the right thing for the country -- not for the insiders who brought the land to this.

It is time for folks to stand up and be counted.

If we all write to our politicians, we can make them spend our money on what's needed for the country today. Let's make it happen!

Gerald Rolf
Larkhill Rd, co Sligo

The population of Swords alone is almost twice that of Sligo. If anything is a white elephant, it's the wester rail corridor

liammur

That is essentially the big problem in this country.

Everything is too local, and we don't look at the bigger picture.

murphaph

liammur wrote: »

That is essentially the big problem in this country.

Everything is too local, and we don't look at the bigger picture.

Eh? You're the one claiming Limerick is hard done by the whole time. You claimed it was unfair to lump Galway into the BMW region as it meant companies were more likely to locate there than your hometown. I think you're guilty of parochialism just as much as that lad in Sligo tbh.

liammur

I never said it was unfair having galway in there, i said it was flawed.

Limerick has more people unemployed now than Cork. Cork has twice the population. Do the sums and come back to me.

murphaph

liammur wrote: »

I never said it was unfair having galway in there, i said it was flawed.

Limerick has more people unemployed now than Cork. Cork has twice the population. Do the sums and come back to me.

Perhaps businesses just don't want to locate in Limerick. Have you considered the possibility? Govt can't put guns to the likes of Google's heads and force them to a location that for better or worse has a bad reputation.

There is only so much Ireland can do for Limerick. Govt tried for years with flawed policies (Shannon Stopover for example) to boost Limerick and clearly they have failed...the reason might just be that Limerick is not where MNCs want to locate.

UL has a good rep with good facilities as far as I know. The city has the airport and the Shannon Free Zone within spitting distance. It has good road and rail links (soon to be motorway) to Dublin and Galway. What more does Limerick need to attract MNCs???

liammur

You raise some interesting points.

First off, let me tell you that i'm well aware limerick is not alone in this e.g. waterford etc. The reason I mention limerick is i know the scene very well.
Up until 1997, Limerick had no problem attracting MNC's. (analog, dell, vistakon, netg)
So none in, in the era of the internet is quite inexcusable.
I've told people before, not here, but friends i know, that companies don't locate to places like galway for the sea.
Also, my own theory is limerick's minister willie o dea, wasn't at the races at all, and even though word on the street for years was dell were going to close, nothing was done. This compounded the situation, and now it's growing into a snowball affect, with businesses closing almost on a daily basis.
If you visit limerick, trust me, you won't disagree with what i'm telling you.

Sleepy

Honestly I believe the best thing Limerick could do to help attract MNC is run the likes of the McCarthy Dundons out of town.

Every second news article about the city is about this small minority of it's residents, the other half are about Dell leaving in search of a more affordable workforce. When all a city is famous for is violence and high costs it's never going to be easy to attract foreign investment no matter how fantastic a broadband network, university or transport links to it are.

murphaph

liammur wrote: »

You raise some interesting points.

First off, let me tell you that i'm well aware limerick is not alone in this e.g. waterford etc. The reason I mention limerick is i know the scene very well.
Up until 1997, Limerick had no problem attracting MNC's. (analog, dell, vistakon, netg)
So none in, in the era of the internet is quite inexcusable.
I've told people before, not here, but friends i know, that companies don't locate to places like galway for the sea.
Also, my own theory is limerick's minister willie o dea, wasn't at the races at all, and even though word on the street for years was dell were going to close, nothing was done. This compounded the situation, and now it's growing into a snowball affect, with businesses closing almost on a daily basis.
If you visit limerick, trust me, you won't disagree with what i'm telling you.

I drove through Limerick last xmas on the way to Bunratty so I've seen it recently.

It does not give a good impression to the tourist (or would be US MNC investor) tbh. Despite all the hype that Limerick is a nice place with a small minority causing trouble, I found the place extremely dirty, run down and generally quite depressing. How far should the govt go? Should it pick up more litter after limerick citizens have dropped it? Should it paint the shopfronts of private businesses who are too tight to do it themselves?

Seriously, what did you expect Willie O'Dea to do? Dell left because of wage costs. Would Willie have been able to somehow reduce the wage bill without reducing output? In any case, Willie O'Dea is a muppet, BUT you, the people of Limerick re-elect the man time and time again, so why blame the national government for all your woes when you yourselves are electing muppets?

I wish Limerick well, but Limerick will only do well if Limerick's own people see to it, not wait for handouts and task forces from Dublin.

daithicarr

murphaph wrote: »

UL has a good rep with good facilities as far as I know. The city has the airport and the Shannon Free Zone within spitting distance. It has good road and rail links (soon to be motorway) to Dublin and Galway. What more does Limerick need to attract MNCs???

The same Flawed argument could be made for Dublin, it has more than one university, it has a airport, it has better road and rail links, what more does it need to attract MNC ?

Limericks problems are for another thread really, but limerick, like cork and id imagine galway have truely awful to practically non existant public transport networks. limerick has been hampered by with three different councils running it, two of which have large county areas to look after as well . e.g county council has lower rates on its large (ugly) retail units on edge of city so business moves out.

Each and every city has elected the fools which still rule in leinster house, so its hardly fair to imply that they get what they deserve for electing him, its not as if the city only elects FF councilours.

As for the topic at hand, the metro price of 6 billion seemed a bit steep for the small network they were getting, 2 billion would be closer to international comparisons. Dublin needs a metro, and much better planning in order to have the population densitys to sustain a good transport network.
I suppose a lot of people though see dublin getting all the major projects and their own areas being left to rot. there should be a better nationwide strategy for development instead of focusing it all on an already sprawling dublin, the other major citys need investment, especially in public transport networks, be that light rail , bus rapid transit systems or simply a good bus network.

The idea that the dundons have any effect on MNC locating to the limerick region is crazy, MNC set up in places with far worse crime rates than limerick.

murphaph

daithicarr wrote: »

The same Flawed argument could be made for Dublin, it has more than one university, it has a airport, it has better road and rail links, what more does it need to attract MNC ?

Better road and rail links relative to the polulation? I don't think so.

Dublin needs this infrastructure. It's sad that so many people from around Ireland begrudge the development of their capital city.

Sleepy

daithicarr wrote: »

The idea that the dundons have any effect on MNC locating to the limerick region is crazy, MNC set up in places with far worse crime rates than limerick.

Where they have better options?

Face it: when offered the chance to live in either Galway or Limerick which city are the majority of Irish people going to opt for? Why would that be any different for MNC's?

The cities have comparable (or identical) wage levels, tax regimes, broadband levels, universities, etc. The difference are of perception: Limerick's famous for violence and crime, Galways famous for Culture, Horse Racing (and easy access to Government Ministers at those Race meetings). It's a no-brainer that staff will be more easily attracted to the latter than the former, that there'll be more scope for senior management to have nice lives whilst running the Irish office on a secondment from the Denver plant etc. etc.

liammur

I would have to agree with daithi. When M Dell opened his plant in limerick, he wasn't concerned about crime etc, the guy was never going to be working there. Tax breaks, productivity and costs decide it. Because a company will get better tax breaks in galway than limerick, i can see no reason why a MNC would or should locate in limerick.
But, as daithi said, we're gone off on a tangent here, I might open a thread specific to this, and your contributions are more than welcome, but people may accuse me of drawing negative publicity to limerick, which isn't my intention at all.

----

Murphyaph, you are being too sensitive. We aren't begrudging the capital the rail network, if cork got the go ahead for their light rail system i wouldn't begrudge them it, i'd just question should it be a top priority in this climate.

daithicarr

well if murder rates and crime rates are a major factor in where MNC locate then dublin will be low on their priority lists as well. given the rash of murders the last couple of weeks and explosion in crime here.

But its not , tax breaks, infrastructure, work force, wage rates, cost of premises etc etc are far more important to a MNC than some thugs around the country killing each other.

But the point I was trying to make is that while dublin does need a proper and affordable public transport as wel as vast improvements in city planning, the same can be said for the rest of the country, I can see why people would be upset if they felt their areas were being neglected. personally i think development should be across the board, we need to develop our other citys as well, bring in new business and infrastructure for these business's. or should we just leave it all rot and try cram everyone in to dublin?

murphaph

Whatever lads, if Dublin is strangled of the funding it needs (and generates itself) to develop it's infrastructure. Ireland and everyone in it will rue the day. Mark my words: Ireland needs one world city with infrastructure to match. Spreading your butter too thinly has always been an Irish problem. Dublin must be allowed densify (not sprawl) and take on other European cities of similar size. Dublin doesn't come anywhere near competing with the likes of Oslo, Stockholm, Copenhagen, Cologne or Munich for quality of life, so knowledge economy heads (programmers etc.) will get harder and harder to attract to Dublin as these other cities race ahead. When Dublin returns to the backwater days it enjoyed from independence until the early 90's...Ireland and everyone in it will feel the pain. People don't realise just how important Dublin is I fear.

liammur

Murphyaph
'It does not give a good impression to the tourist (or would be US MNC investor) tbh. Despite all the hype that Limerick is a nice place with a small minority causing trouble, I found the place extremely dirty, run down and generally quite depressing. How far should the govt go? Should it pick up more litter after limerick citizens have dropped it? Should it paint the shopfronts of private businesses who are too tight to do it themselves?

Seriously, what did you expect Willie O'Dea to do? Dell left because of wage costs. Would Willie have been able to somehow reduce the wage bill without reducing output? In any case, Willie O'Dea is a muppet, BUT you, the people of Limerick re-elect the man time and time again, so why blame the national government for all your woes when you yourselves are electing muppets?
I wish Limerick well, but Limerick will only do well if Limerick's own people see to it, not wait for handouts and task forces from Dublin. '



---
You do seem to be totally out of your depth in discussing issues. And the above post is a reason I would be afraid to open a new thread.
Task forces do nothing if not implemented.
Handouts. I don't know what you mean by this ?
So a task force commissioned in 08, and nothing done in 2 years isn't exactly what I would term proaction from a government.
What an intelligent person would have expected Willie O Dea/cabinet to have done, was anticipate the fall out from the dell fiasco. They did exactly what you did 'what can we do'? A smarter individual would have included limerick in the BMW region. Not only has limerick lost, but ireland has too, lost revenues, more unemployment. So, bad decisions regionally, have national implications.

jd

Liam
Are you quoting someone else's post? It isn't entirely clear.

liammur

yes, jd, i just edited there.

Pete_Cavan

Hope Im not stepping on any mods toes or anything but there is already a thread going over in infrastructure about the governments capital investment plans and the main topic of conversation is to do with capital spending is Dublin versus regional investment, link here http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=67269781#post67269781. Maybe this debate could take place over there and keep this on Metro North (there is also a thread in infrastructure but it is more to do with the engineering aspects as oposed to the economic issues).