Do wrestling take the MMA out of MMA?

dave1982

s American wrestling stalling the progress of Mixed Martial Arts? Some fans think so, and after some recent matches in particular, arguments are rife that wrestlers are killing the aesthetics of the sport.

By Michael Schiavello, HDNet

Every MMA fan, commentator and reporter has found themselves in a discussion as to who are the best fighters to watch, which is different from a discussion about who are the best fighters period. Being one of the best fighters to watch does not necessarily equate to being one of the best fighters in terms of winning accomplishments.

Take Melvin Manhoef for example. Few would argue that Melvin is one of the best fighters to watch because he always brings the proverbial rage to the ring. His most attractive asset is his raw, explosive, unhindered power with little care for defense — which, unfortunately, is often his undoing. Melvin will never be classified as one of the best MMA fighters in the world, but he will always be listed as one of the best to watch.

Of course, there are fighters who double up as being the best to watch and also the actual best in skill level and results. Look no further than Fedor Emelianenko as the prime example.

Fedor is largely considered one of the best fighters to watch because he possesses a skill set most of us believe encapsulates the true and complete MMA fighter: he can fight equally well standing or on the ground, on his back or in top position, he finishes fights by both submissions and strikes – and does so in highlight reel fashion. On top of that, he epitomizes the attributes of humility, focus and discipline that traditional martial arts seeks to ingrain in its students. You get the feeling that the late Mas Oyama, Gichin Funakoshi or even Jigaro Kano would have enjoyed watching Fedor do as he does in the ring and act as he does outside of the ring. (For the record, if you’re wondering who the hell are any of the names I just mentioned, you should Google and really become better versed as to where and by whom the many styles of martial arts were developed. It’s a pet hate of mine that many so-called Mixed Martial Arts reporters do not know much at all of the origins of the various arts beyond a basic knowledge of Helio Gracie, Bruce Lee and old Kung Fu films).

Anderson Silva is another fighter invariably thrown into the mix as being among the best to watch and the best fighter in the sport. Take away his mind-numbingly boring fight in Abu Dhabi and Anderson’s career is littered with superb knockouts, excellent submissions and some of the most sublime displays of speed and footwork ever seen in MMA.

Other names that often arise in these discussions include: Lyoto Machida, Marius Zaromskis, Nick Diaz, Gegard Mousasi, Forrest Griffin, Wanderlei Silva, Vitor Belfort, Joachim Hansen and JZ Cavalcante.

Do you notice something about this list?

Look closely.

None of these fighters have a base in wrestling.

Wrestlers are among the most disciplined, hardest working and diligent athletes in any sport. I marvel at the skill level of world class wrestlers who have transitioned successfully to Mixed Martial Arts, from guys like Mark Coleman and Dan Severn in the early days who developed the prototype for the successful American wrestler in MMA. Their takedowns, top control, ground and pound recipe (I call it TD, TC, GnP) paved the way for the likes of Randy Couture, Tito Ortiz and Matt Hughes, right up to the new breed of gun wrestlers like Brock Lesnar, Joe Warren, Mo Lawal, Gray Maynard and Ryan Bader. In fact, with the exception of Semmy Schilt facing you in a K-1 match, I can’t think of a more imposing sight in fight sports than a high level American wrestler standing across the ring from you knowing they are going to take you down, put you on your back, sit in your half guard and beat up on you like a piñata.



This game plan, pioneered by the Colemans and Severns remains the basic, successful recipe for American wrestlers in MMA today. The question is: does this recipe make for less exciting spectacles of MMA? Indeed a further question could be: have American wrestlers taken the martial arts out of Mixed Martial Arts? (as a side note, I never actually liked the phrase Mixed Martial Arts. Boxing is not a martial art, nor is wrestling, nor is street fighting, yet we have Mixed “Martial Artists” competing from these backgrounds. The name MMA was coined by Rick Blume [some say Jeff Blatnick] but I always thought Mixed Fight Sports (MFS) or Mixed Combat Sports (MCS) would be a far more suitable name).

Is watching someone like Shinya Aoki or BJ Penn who constantly looks for submissions ultimately more entertaining than watching Gray Maynard or Matt Hamill who utilize classic TD, TC, GnP games? Are strikers who swing for the knockouts like Chuck Liddell, Wanderlei Silva or Melvin Manhoef more entertaining than those who utilize the American wrestling recipe? What about fighters who successfully merge a superb ground game with excellent striking such as Anderson Silva, Gegard Mousasi and Georges St Pierre?

The most recent example of classic TD, TC, GnP saw King Mo Lawal defeat Gegard Mousasi to win the Strikeforce Light Heavyweight strap. Aesthetically and from an entertainment viewpoint, it wasn’t the most nipple-hardening fight to watch. For practicality, however, King Mo’s game plan worked a treat. He thoroughly deserved to have the strap placed around his waist after five rounds. The same goes for Gilbert Melendez in defeating Shinya Aoki for the Strikeforce Lightweight title.

These two fights in particular had many fans groaning about how American wrestling is taking all the fun out of Mixed Martial Arts. How the TD, TC, GnP approach is killing inventiveness and ingenuity.

Indeed with the dominance of fighters like King Mo, Melendez, Brock Lesnar and let’s not forget Frankie Edgar defeating BJ Penn, there are many who prophesize with Mayan-esque assuredness that wrestlers will stall the growth of MMA, especially as a television spectacle. But the question needs to be asked: is this the wrestlers’ fault? Should the finger of blame be pointed at the “ground and pound wrestlers who just go for takedown after takedown, get top position and play it safe” or at fighters like Aoki and Mousasi for failing to develop good takedown defenses against said wrestlers?

I want to make note here also that there is a marked difference between American MMA and Japanese MMA mostly due to the overwhelming influence of American wrestling. Americans grow up wrestling in high school and college where the American wrestling MMA recipe (TD, TC, GnP) is first developed. Japanese kids, however, grow up with Judo, which incorporates many submission moves you may know by their English names. These include: triangle choke (sankaku-jime); arm bar (ude-hishigi-juji-gatame) and others. This may be the reason why there is a higher output of submission victories in Japanese MMA than there is in American MMA but a higher output of victories from ground and pound in American MMA than in Japanese MMA.

Like any fight sport, MMA goes through cycles and is in a constant state of evolution. As the sport evolves, fighters must be on top of their games to constantly reassess their strategies and realize the changes that are taking place.

If nobody had ever thought to unravel what Jeff Blatnick used to call the “riddle of the Gracie guard”, then Royce and his brothers and cousins and second cousins and uncle’s son’s third cousins five times removed, would still be dominating the UFC to this day.

If fighters like Maurice Smith had not developed the technique of sprawl-n-brawl, there wouldn’t be such a plethora of strikers taking part in the MMA game. (Some credit Chuck Liddell as the sprawl-n-brawl inventor, but it was Maurice Smith who came in as the world’s (then) greatest ever heavyweight kickboxing champion [9 years undefeated as WKA champion] and a former K-1 fighter and had UFC success by way of sprawl-n-brawl.)

If Mark Coleman and Dan Severn never developed good TD, TC, GnP games, there wouldn’t have been a game outside of either just stand-up or just submissions.

Fighters like Anderson Silva, Georges St Pierre, Gegard Mousasi, Fedor Emelianenko and Lyoto Machida continue to put the martial arts into Mixed Martial Arts and showcase the type of amazing, all-round, multi-skilled and high-level athlete this sport can produce. And more than ever before, it is the likes of Silva, Fedor, Mousasi, and St Pierre who must not rest on their laurels (as perhaps Mousasi did in preparing for King Mo) and need to keep working hard to maintain that edge, knowing that America’s superb and powerful wrestlers are the next wave to hit MMA (just as Brazilian Jiu Jitsu was the first wave) and they can either learn how to surf that wave to victory or be drowned beneath its force.

What do you think? Is American wrestling taking some of the martial arts out of MMA? Leave your thoughts below and the best gets a copy of BJ Penn’s new book!

Me personally think take downs etc should used to finish a fight,put them on their back to pound them out or sub.Not grind out a decision

cowzerp

Its MMA, that means a mix of martial arts, and the most effective are used, for MMA Wrestling is up there a 1 of the top disciplines so if it's not used then it's not really MMA, it is true that some fighters use it negatively but then it's up to the opponents to counter this, so people should adapt there bottom game to suit this..

scudzilla

Wrestling is great for MMA and totally needs to stay there.

If you're looking for something that should be removed then try Foot Stomping, i hate that, no Martial Art at all involved in Stomping on somebodies foot, any clown can do it

stevemc01

scudzilla wrote: »

Wrestling is great for MMA and totally needs to stay there.

If you're looking for something that should be removed then try Foot Stomping, i hate that, no Martial Art at all involved in Stomping on somebodies foot, any clown can do it

I don't mind footstomps, they can be used effectively (not just to stomp the **** out of someones feet Marco Ruas style) as a distraction to get someone to adjust their feet and lose a bit of balance when clinching to aid takedowns.

HellsAngel

cowzerp wrote: »

Its MMA, that means a mix of martial arts, and the most effective are used, for MMA Wrestling is up there a 1 of the top disciplines so if it's not used then it's not really MMA, it is true that some fighters use it negatively but then it's up to the opponents to counter this, so people should adapt there bottom game to suit this..

You hit the nail on the head. What the OP doesn't seem to like about some wrestlers is how they use Lay and Pray to slow down a fight and they hope they get the round as they throw a few half hearted strikes and are in the more dominant postion. There is much, much more to wrestling than just lay and pray, the takedowns etc can be among the most spectacular aspects of MMA. Even a good BJJer could utilise lay and pray ( and sometimes they do :rolleyes: ) against another BJJer in order to play it safe. It has to be borne in mind that a professional fighters objective is primarily to win, entertaining the audience is secondary.

So as cowzerp says, it's up to others to adapt their ground game and not throw in more red tape and rules inhibting the action. Also the ref can paly a role, and often does, he is always calling out " More work guys, more work " and can stand them back up if he deems so. It's not perfect but that's life.

scudzilla wrote: »

Wrestling is great for MMA and totally needs to stay there.

If you're looking for something that should be removed then try Foot Stomping, i hate that, no Martial Art at all involved in Stomping on somebodies foot, any clown can do it

Agree, any kind of idiot can foot stomp, adds nothing to MMA.

Genki Sudo

Of course wrestling is an important part of the sport, but the rules need to be tailored to maximise action and discourage stalling. Knees to the head of grounded opponents and scoring that emphasises attempts to finish would be steps in the right direction.

HellsAngel

Genki Sudo wrote: »

Of course wrestling is an important part of the sport, but the rules need to be tailored to maximise action and discourage stalling. Knees to the head of grounded opponents and scoring that emphasises attempts to finish would be steps in the right direction.

Ok I'm all for maximising the action and lay and pray is a pain in the a$re. So how would you word a rule change instead of leaving it at the ref's disgression if someone is regarded as not engaging properly ?

rovert

Michael Schiavello K-1 commentator here.

HellsAngel wrote: »

Ok I'm all for maximising the action and lay and pray is a pain in the a$re. So how would you word a rule change instead of leaving it at the ref's disgression if someone is regarded as not engaging properly ?

UFC's current one if the crowd boos stand em up :pac:

Genki Sudo

HellsAngel wrote: »

Ok I'm all for maximising the action and lay and pray is a pain in the a$re. So how would you word a rule change instead of leaving it at the ref's disgression if someone is regarded as not engaging properly ?

Where did I mention stand ups? I don't think more stand ups are the solution, for a myriad of different reasons. What I'm arguing for is a ruleset that encourages more free flowing and active grappling. Knees to the head of a grounded opponent, the abolition of round based scoring, and a more PRIDE like scoring criteria would all go some way to achieving this imo.

cletus

I reckon its up to the opponent to have developed either a very good sprawl to prevent being taken down, or as cowzerp said, a sufficiently good bottom game to reverse the situation.

i am loathe to change rule-sets just because one group of fighters can exploit an aspect of the game. Its up to the non-wrestlers to come up with tactics to neutralise this aspect of the sport.

Evil_Clown

As someone who is just a fan and not a participant I can see the point in this article from a fight excitement and gaining new fans point of view.
Yes I respect the wrestlers ability to neutralise a top level bjj guy on the ground but do I enjoy watching it? would I like to watch the fighters next fight?

Maybe I don't spreak for the majority but for example I would much rather watch Mousasi fight again over King-Mo even though King-Mo beat him. Same goes for Daley over Koscheck.

HellsAngel

rovert wrote: »

Michael Schiavello K-1 commentator here.







UFC's current one if the crowd boos stand em up

Sorry matey, but you obviously don't know the first thing about grappling.

Genki Sudo wrote: »

Where did I mention stand ups?

Ok you ddin't mention standups but since this is the present practice is a fight is going nowhere on the ground then I presumed you wanted this kind of intervention.

I don't think more stand ups are the solution, for a myriad of different reasons. What I'm arguing for is a ruleset that encourages more free flowing and active grappling. Knees to the head of a grounded opponent, the abolition of round based scoring, and a more PRIDE like scoring criteria would all go some way to achieving this imo.

Well fair enough you've suggested a few ways to keep the fight more active.
A) " Knees to the head of a grounded opponent " - might help a guy in side hold finish with a KO ( it was a speciality of Ian Freeman's ), cannot see it been any use to the guy on the bottom as I've never seen a fella form the bottom knee his opponent. Lay and pray usually happens when the fella on the bottom is in the top guys guard ( bottom guy holds top guy with both legs wrapped around his body), cann't see knee strikes been of use there.
" the abolition of round based scoring "
C) " more PRIDE like scoring criteria " Well I've only seen a few Pride fights and that was quite a while ago, so I cannot comment on that. Tell me how it differed from UFC ( which is similiar to boxing's 10-point must system of awarding points on each round) ?

seadnamac

I am the only one that enjoys watching Jon Fitch fight?

dave1982

Pride had a yellow card system for stalling,I think that affected their purse also not sure of their judging system

Jayo_M

In Pride, and in Japanese MMA in general, the fights are judged as a whole as opposed to round by round.

Lay and pray usually happens when the fella on the bottom is in the top guys guard ( bottom guy holds top guy with both legs wrapped around his body), cann't see knee strikes been of use there.

Other way around.

rovert

HellsAngel wrote: »

Sorry matey, but you obviously don't know the first thing about grappling.

You base this on?

Genki Sudo

HellsAngel wrote: »

Sorry matey, but you obviously don't know the first thing about grappling.

Well I've only seen a few Pride fights and that was quite a while ago, so I cannot comment on that.

:rolleyes:

HellsAngel

dave1982 wrote: »

Pride had a yellow card system for stalling,I think that affected their purse also not sure of their judging system

Well in the UFC the ref at his discretion can instruct the judges to deduct a point. Thii can be done for several reasons, groin strikes etc and failing to engage or stalling the fight. Generally if their stalling on the ground, ref will stand them up, taking the advantage of the top guy away. Also, bottom guy can sometimes get the round, though it's rare, for been more active than the top guy. Hard thing to do when a bullock of a wrestler is lying on top of you.
Here's more on the 10 point must system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10-point_must_system

HellsAngel

rovert wrote: »

You base this on?

Genki Sudo wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Seen loads of fights where grappler has the other fighter in a very dangerous position for a submission. Since the ref's are experienced grapplers, they are able to see the potential of it. Most fans can relate better to striking for obvious reasons, grappling can be more like a chess game. To understand it sometimes you have to train at it for a while. It would be totally wrong for a ref to stand it up again if the BJJer/Wrestler had his opponent in a very liable position just because many in the crowd cannot see the potential for a submission.

That's one thing I'll say about American fans, sure you sometimes get the booing, but since quite a lot of them have High school wrestling or whatever, they seem to appreciate a good grappling match better than Europeans.

rovert

Again what does any of this have to do with my post? Im lost here, I wont keep asking but sounds like youve a chip on your shoulder about something.

HellsAngel

rovert wrote: »

Again what does any of this have to do with my post? Im lost here, I wont keep asking but sounds like youve a chip on your shoulder about something.

FFS Do yourself a favor, try and join a BJJ club for a few months, I can't baby step you through it any more :rolleyes:

rovert

HellsAngel wrote: »

FFS Do yourself a favor, try and join a BJJ club for a few months, I can't baby step you through it any more :rolleyes:

So you do have a chip on your shoulder. All I pointed out was the Schiavello is primarily a kickboxing announcer to put his comments and bias in perspective and that the crowd often dicates the ref's decision to stand people. Thats all. I made no actual opinion yet some how you think I have. Simply amazing. Im not looking to pursue this any further. Whatever you think I said or done I didnt.