The 'punishment' of Jews

Bduffman

Apologies if this subject was discussed before but I couldn't find anything relevant on previous threads.
I was at a party the other night & the subject of religion came up (inevitable with very religious, mildly religious & atheists in the mix). The usual subject of 'a god allowing people to die in natural disasters while him being thanked when one person is saved' came up. Someone mentioned the holocaust & how that could be allowed to happen.
And then someone said that the holocaust happened because the Jews were being punished for killing Jesus (cue awkward silence & a change of subject). Now I've heard this before but I didn't think 'normal' people actually believed this.

What is the Christian churches views on this matter? Is it accepted as true? If so, why isn't it said more often? If its not the accepted view, why isn't it condemned more rigourously to ensure people don't spread this kind of ignorance? After all it doesn't do much for the Christian image.

Zombrex

Bduffman wrote: »

why isn't it condemned more rigourously to ensure people don't spread this kind of ignorance? After all it doesn't do much for the Christian image.

What do you mean "more rigorously"?

Most Christians live in democracies where free speech is permitted. They are not in a position to censor such claims, even if they wanted to.

Fanny Cradock

Bduffman wrote: »

Apologies if this subject was discussed before but I couldn't find anything relevant on previous threads.
I was at a party the other night & the subject of religion came up (inevitable with very religious, mildly religious & atheists in the mix). The usual subject of 'a god allowing people to die in natural disasters while him being thanked when one person is saved' came up. Someone mentioned the holocaust & how that could be allowed to happen.
And then someone said that the holocaust happened because the Jews were being punished for killing Jesus (cue awkward silence & a change of subject). Now I've heard this before but I didn't think 'normal' people actually believed this.

What is the Christian churches views on this matter? Is it accepted as true? If so, why isn't it said more often? If its not the accepted view, why isn't it condemned more rigourously to ensure people don't spread this kind of ignorance? After all it doesn't do much for the Christian image.

No doubt it exists but I've never encountered such opinions. I would have a chat with them if I did. Still, I'm not sure the drunken ramblings of someone at a party is the a good basis for me to start quizzing Christians about the Holocaust and denouncing them if they have messed up opinions.

I would be surprised if the vast majority of denominations (OK, there are probably some nasty KKK churches in the deep South or some such) didn't see the death and resurrection as necessary and ultimately a glorious thing.

Bduffman

Wicknight wrote: »

What do you mean "more rigorously"?

Most Christians live in democracies where free speech is permitted. They are not in a position to censor such claims, even if they wanted to.

I wasn't suggesting they should censor such claims. Only that they clarify their position on the matter - seeing as some members of their flock seem to have the wrong end of the stick.

Bduffman

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

No doubt it exists but I've never encountered such opinions. I would have a chat with them if I did.

As I've said, I have encountered such opinions but never from someone who I thought was reasonably 'normal'. Thats why I was taken aback at the time.

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Still, I'm not sure the drunken ramblings of someone at a party is the a good basis for me to start quizzing Christians about the Holocaust and denouncing them if they have messed up opinions.

I'll pass on your comments to the relevant person who brought it up. But as I already stated, there was no denouncing of opinion - just awkward silence & a quick change of subject. Personally I'm never quite sure how to react to such outlandish opinions.

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I would be surprised if the vast majority of denominations (OK, there are probably some nasty KKK churches in the deep South or some such) didn't see the death and resurrection as necessary and ultimately a glorious thing.

Thats what I thought - I was just curious if (a) it is an official line (which I presume from your answer it isn't) and (b) how widespread that opinion is. Of course it could just simply be good old-fashioned racism. (Incidentally the person is RC).

gbee

Bduffman wrote: »

Now I've heard this before but I didn't think 'normal' people actually believed this..

Well, it is fairly well known, as is why the Jews won't eat meat.

As a boy in a typical Irish Catholic Education since starting school in 1959/60 I was TOLD by the women in black that 'God' had imposed a curse on the Jews and this is the reason they've been hunted and persecuted everywhere they went.

Mind you, I was also told of Adam & Eve, later only to be LAUGHED at when they suddenly dropped this story altogether. [Started my questioning of my beliefs, but that's going OT].

I was also told that the Jews would not eat pork because Christ cast the devil into the pig during one of his miracles ~ or something like that. We know now that Pork is a very unhealthy food and very hard to keep, ie, it goes off quickly and does not refrigerate or cure very well [in relation to other meats that is].

Zombrex

Bduffman wrote: »

I wasn't suggesting they should censor such claims. Only that they clarify their position on the matter - seeing as some members of their flock seem to have the wrong end of the stick.

What is to clarify?

I'm not a Christian, but I think the mistake would be to assume this is some how the Christian position in the first place, considering that the vast majority of the Christian position is based on the Bible which was written 2000 years before the holocaust.

You aren't going to find a passage in the Bible saying God ordered the destruction of the Jews by the Germans because of the death of Jesus because it hadn't happened yet.

So the question becomes why would someone think this is the Christian position in the first place?

Is it just because some Christians believe this? If that is the case the question is why do those Christians believe this and what are they basing that on, cause it ain't the Bible.

prinz

Bduffman wrote: »

Thats what I thought - I was just curious if (a) it is an official line (which I presume from your answer it isn't) and (b) how widespread that opinion is. Of course it could just simply be good old-fashioned racism. (Incidentally the person is RC).

(a) It isn't (b) have heard that reasoning before but only in the satirical sense, never seriously being put forward as an actual serious point. I am sure there probably are some who hold it, somewhere, probably as Fanny mentioned, areas in the southern US.

The next time they say it mention the fact that often the Jews were victimised because of other people's stupidity. Let the awkward silence hang.

Fanny Cradock

Bduffman wrote: »

Thats what I thought - I was just curious if (a) it is an official line (which I presume from your answer it isn't) and (b) how widespread that opinion is. Of course it could just simply be good old-fashioned racism. (Incidentally the person is RC).

I'm sure there is an official line amongst denominations. For example, I seem to recall the RCC has said addressed the Jew's part in Jesus' death which amounted to them saying, "Stop the Jew hatin', folks." But as a non-denominational Christian, perhaps I'm not the best to be asking. Of course, official doctrine aside, one simply has to point out to your party buddy that Jesus, Peter, Paul, James etc., etc., were all Jews.

Actually, just came across this after typing the above. The article doesn't directly address official reactions to the reasons for the Holocaust (I would assume the concise response would be "it happened because of sin") but perhaps one can take the core message - that Jews weren't at fault, people were - and apply this to any suggestion that the Holocaust was payment for Jesus' death. The Holocaust happened because a angry, power hungry little Austrian ****head with bad facial hair was able to stoke the fires of anti-Semitism.

gbee

The story more or less as I was told: God sent Moses in a basket to free the enslaved Jews.

Said Jews escaped, but despite miracles of seas parting and burning bushes, they were an impatient peoples and some of their 'cities' were destroyed by the wrath of God. The cities refers to Sodom and Ghomerra. This was taught in Catholic Primary Schools in Ireland.

The Jews more or less found their 'promised lands' and survived there despite what could be described as world wars between the major world powers, even invasion from Egypt [their former capturers to build the Pyramids ** we now know this to be incorrect] and other invasions in this very strategic area, right up to Roman times where the Jews were privileged to govern themselves, provided it did not contravene Roman Law, and they paid their taxes to Rome.

Under Roman Law, Christ, at least one of them vying for the title of Messiah, was committing no offence, but the Jews persevered and even paid off one or more of Christ's supported to betray him to Rome and force his execution.

Since then until 1948 the Jews had been [once again] scattered to the four corners of the earth and persecuted everywhere they went.

Thus endeth my lessons.

gbee

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

The Holocaust happened because a angry, power hungry little Austrian ****head with bad facial hair was able to stoke the fires of anti-Semitism.

Under new findings, Hitler had not ordered the Holocaust. But he, nonetheless, set the stage whereby it occurred.

losthorizon

So what offence had the Armenians commited? (The picture is of the Armenian Genocide memorial in Yerevan which I took two years ago on my holidays).

As Hitler said "who remembers the Armenians now".

Or indeed why did so many irish people die during the Famine.

Stalin killed over a million Ukrainian farmers - were they all evil and deserving of death?

gbee

losthorizon wrote: »

Or indeed why did so many irish people die during the Famine.

Many reasons.

Too large families, twenty, twenty five children was not uncommon, a typical family would be 12/14 children.

Too small a holding for survival.

Too limited a diet.

There was PLENTY of food in Ireland but it was sent to England in taxes and rents.

The Catholic Church banned sex, except for the purpose of procreation and banned contraception outright.

The Church ordered the child to be saved, resulting in many families having only a father.

JimiTime

gbee wrote: »

The story more or less as I was told: God sent Moses in a basket to free the enslaved Jews.

Said Jews escaped, but despite miracles of seas parting and burning bushes, they were an impatient peoples and some of their 'cities' were destroyed by the wrath of God. The cities refers to Sodom and Ghomerra. This was taught in Catholic Primary Schools in Ireland.

I very much doubt you were taught the above. Seeing how Sodom and Gommorah was destroyed before there was any such thing as 'Jews'. I'm no fan of the RCC, but I don't think they're that stupid.

Zombrex

JimiTime wrote: »

I very much doubt you were taught the above. Seeing how Sodom and Gommorah was destroyed before there was any such thing as 'Jews'. I'm no fan of the RCC, but I don't think they're that stupid.

Roman numerials?! They didn't even try to teach us that at school
Bart Simpson

Obscure The Simpsons reference :P

losthorizon

gbee wrote: »

Many reasons.

Too large families, twenty, twenty five children was not uncommon, a typical family would be 12/14 children.

Too small a holding for survival.

Too limited a diet.

There was PLENTY of food in Ireland but it was sent to England in taxes and rents.

The Catholic Church banned sex, except for the purpose of procreation and banned contraception outright.

The Church ordered the child to be saved, resulting in many families having only a father.

I know the factual reasons why so many Irish people died during the famine. I'm was just pointing out that the deathrate of so many Irish people at that time was no more A PUNISHMENT from god than than the genocide of the Jews.

BTW I doubt if god exists at all.

gbee

JimiTime wrote: »

I very much doubt you were taught the above. Seeing how Sodom and Gommorah was destroyed before there was any such thing as 'Jews'. I'm no fan of the RCC, but I don't think they're that stupid.

Maybe it is me that was stupid.

Don't forget that this was my education in 1959 onwards. These were the peoples that Moses had saved from the Egyptians. Disillusioned with Moses's disappearance up the mountain to the burning bush, they turned to craven images and false Gods and engaged in debauchery.

This would have been spewed from the pulpit during Missions too, as a young boy I'd have to attend men only missions. By the time you were finished with these guys and their gestures, just like you'd see in film actually, you'd believe anything.

It was also a time when we'd kneel down in the road as the Angelus Rang out at mid-day. I have a few very vivid memories of those times.

gbee

losthorizon wrote: »

I know the factual reasons why so many Irish people died during the famine. I'm was just pointing out that the deathrate of so many Irish people at that time was no more A PUNISHMENT from god than than the genocide of the Jews.

BTW I doubt if god exists at all.

Gotcha. Good point too actually.

Fanny Cradock

gbee wrote: »

It was also a time when we'd kneel down in the road as the Angelus Rang out at mid-day. I have a few very vivid memories of those times.

I'm sure you do, gbee. But this thread is about something else.

gbee

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I'm sure you do, gbee. But this thread is about something else.

Yes, and I hope it points out what was taught, 50 years ago, and it sounds like the OP is a much younger person, and one of his friends, who would not have been taught this in school, still has a similar viewpoint.

If that's going OT, I apologise. Thanks.

JimiTime

gbee wrote: »

Don't forget that this was my education in 1959 onwards. These were the peoples that Moses had saved from the Egyptians. Disillusioned with Moses's disappearance up the mountain to the burning bush, they turned to craven images and false Gods and engaged in debauchery.

That was still nothing to do with Sodom and Gomorrah. Sodom and Gomorrah was before there was any such thing as 'Jews' as there was NO tribes of Israel yet. Jacob (The father of the 12 tribes of Israel, which included Judah whose decendents are called Jews ) had not been born at the time of Sodom and Gomorrah.

There was indeed a purging of those who turned from God after the Golden Calf incident, but nothing to do with Sodom and Gomorrah.

PDN

gbee wrote: »

I was also told that the Jews would not eat pork because Christ cast the devil into the pig during one of his miracles ~ or something like that.

Either you weren't paying attention in class or else you went to a very 'special' school.

gbee

PDN wrote: »

Either you weren't paying attention in class or else you went to a very 'special' school.

Which means?

Fanny Cradock

That the dietary laws existed long before Jesus. This goes back right to the time of Moses.

Zombrex

gbee wrote: »

Which means?

That what you are saying you were taught is about as close to Christianity as The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe is. Which means you picked it up wrong, or who ever was teaching your Christianity was making it up as they went along

philologos

OP: I find the reasoning flawed, as I believe that Jesus had to die in order for our sins to be forgiven. If it had to happen anyway, it seems a bit gratuitous to say that the blame extends to generations far beyond Jesus'

prinz

Wicknight wrote: »

Which means you picked it up wrong, or who ever was teaching your Christianity was making it up as they went along

I'd hazard a guess at the second. The inevitable result of having teachers, particularly in primary teaching a religion many no little about. I too remember hearing something similar concerning Jesus, the herd of swine and Jews eating pork (must have been in primary school) and it wasn't as long ago as the 1950's/1960's :eek:

Which is why religion should be taken out of primary schools altogether.

JimiTime

prinz wrote: »

I'd hazard a guess at the second. The inevitable result of having teachers, particularly in primary teaching a religion many no little about. I too remember hearing something similar concerning Jesus, the herd of swine and Jews eating pork (must have been in primary school) and it wasn't as long ago as the 1950's/1960's :eek:

Which is why religion should be taken out of primary schools altogether.

Bloody hell, thats attrocious. Was it a nun or brother that taught you that, or was it just a regular teacher? It seems obvious that it was a regular teacher, but I'm just making sure.

prinz

JimiTime wrote: »

Bloody hell, thats attrocious. Was it a nun or brother that taught you that, or was it just a regular teacher? It seems obvious that it was a regular teacher, but I'm just making sure.

Must have been a regular teacher. No religious in my primary. I'm 90% sure it must have been in school, may have heard it somewhere else but I have no idea where else I would have heard something like that.

Slav

This is actually one of the favourite jokes of Israeli tour guides. When talking about lake Kinneret being a strategic resource for the region as a source of fresh water they like to say something in the lines of "thanks God our rabbis don't read the New Testament and don't know that Jesus cast a herd of swine there; otherwise they would immediately ban our tap water as non-kosher".

Bduffman

Wicknight wrote: »

What is to clarify?

I'm not a Christian, but I think the mistake would be to assume this is some how the Christian position in the first place, considering that the vast majority of the Christian position is based on the Bible which was written 2000 years before the holocaust.

I didn't assume anything - I just asked a question. I thought this would be a good place to get an answer.

Wicknight wrote: »

You aren't going to find a passage in the Bible saying God ordered the destruction of the Jews by the Germans because of the death of Jesus because it hadn't happened yet.

No, but you possibly will find something there that racists can use to demonise Jews.

Wicknight wrote: »

So the question becomes why would someone think this is the Christian position in the first place?

Because a christian said it so I thought it was possible that it could be an official line. I personally didn't think it was & the replies on this thread confirms that.

Wicknight wrote: »

Is it just because some Christians believe this? If that is the case the question is why do those Christians believe this and what are they basing that on, cause it ain't the Bible.

This is the difficulty I often have when trying to understand why people remain in certain denominations. A person who has those views about Jews surely shouldn't call themselves a christian, never mind a catholic. Likewise, I have always been amazed at the amount of 'catholics' who don't believe in transubstantiation. But thats another topic. It just seems that some people don't understand their own religion & why they subscribe to it.

gbee

Bduffman wrote: »

This is the difficulty I often have when trying to understand why people remain in certain denominations. A person who has those views about Jews surely shouldn't call themselves a christian, never mind a catholic. Likewise, I have always been amazed at the amount of 'catholics' who don't believe in transubstantiation. But thats another topic. It just seems that some people don't understand their own religion & why they subscribe to it.

Well, put me here. I am a firm believer in it being child abuse to indoctrinate your own children into ANY religion.

I've recounted some of my experiences already, I decided at age 14 that there was no God ~ but I never did anything officially about it ~ and I aslo soon found that once another religion though you were 'free' they though it their mission in life to convert you to theirs. Ergo, I don't tend to reveal any more, 'tis just easier to say Catlick!

wolfsbane

Bduffman wrote: »

Apologies if this subject was discussed before but I couldn't find anything relevant on previous threads.
I was at a party the other night & the subject of religion came up (inevitable with very religious, mildly religious & atheists in the mix). The usual subject of 'a god allowing people to die in natural disasters while him being thanked when one person is saved' came up. Someone mentioned the holocaust & how that could be allowed to happen.
And then someone said that the holocaust happened because the Jews were being punished for killing Jesus (cue awkward silence & a change of subject). Now I've heard this before but I didn't think 'normal' people actually believed this.

What is the Christian churches views on this matter? Is it accepted as true? If so, why isn't it said more often? If its not the accepted view, why isn't it condemned more rigourously to ensure people don't spread this kind of ignorance? After all it doesn't do much for the Christian image.

It requires a nuanced answer. The forced dispersion of the Jewish nation from their homeland and their subsequent troubles down the ages has both a Divine and a human aspect.

Their national apostasy, cumulating in the murder of their Messiah and the persecution of His Church, brought God's wrath upon them. The nation was expelled from the land and kept out of it until recently, by God's command. He delivered them into the hands of their enemies.

However, the evil things done to them in their exile - supremely the Holocaust - are down to the evil in Gentile hearts. Men are commanded to be kind to the alien, not to afflict him. Christians especially are to love and care for them in their need. God administers His justice, but calls us to be part of His ministry of mercy.

Luke 21:22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.


1 Thessalonians 2:14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judea in Christ Jesus. For you also suffered the same things from your own countrymen, just as they did from the Judeans, 15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they do not please God and are contrary to all men, 16 forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up the measure of their sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost.

Romans 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“ The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
_________________________________________________________________
Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:


“ Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,
And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”

Bduffman

wolfsbane wrote: »

It requires a nuanced answer. The forced dispersion of the Jewish nation from their homeland and their subsequent troubles down the ages has both a Divine and a human aspect.

Their national apostasy, cumulating in the murder of their Messiah and the persecution of His Church, brought God's wrath upon them. The nation was expelled from the land and kept out of it until recently, by God's command. He delivered them into the hands of their enemies.

However, the evil things done to them in their exile - supremely the Holocaust - are down to the evil in Gentile hearts. Men are commanded to be kind to the alien, not to afflict him. Christians especially are to love and care for them in their need. God administers His justice, but calls us to be part of His ministry of mercy.

And just when I thought there might be some consensus on a subject by christians.
So Gods wrath was brought upon them. Yet the evil things done to them was due to the evil in mens hearts? But for god to bring his wrath upon them he would surely have to manipulate gentiles to make them carry out those evils things - no? What happened to free will?
And why didn't he just continue bringing his wrath a la the old testament instead of relying on evil gentiles? What happened to good old flooding & pestilence?

I'm sorry but how can any christian have such an opposing view to other christians? Sounds like an excuse for racism to me.

Fanny Cradock

Bduffman wrote: »

And just when I thought there might be some consensus on a subject by christians.

You show me one issue that 2 billion people are in total agreement on and then you may have a point.

JimiTime

Bduffman wrote: »

Sounds like an excuse for racism to me.

If you took that from Wolfbanes post, I would suggest you were just waiting for an excuse to play that card.

The Smurf

gbee wrote: »

We know now that Pork is a very unhealthy food and very hard to keep, ie, it goes off quickly and does not refrigerate or cure very well [in relation to other meats that is].

Bacon?

wolfsbane

Bduffman said:

So Gods wrath was brought upon them. Yet the evil things done to them was due to the evil in mens hearts? But for god to bring his wrath upon them he would surely have to manipulate gentiles to make them carry out those evils things - no?

Hatred, conquest, pillage, etc. is always in the sinner's heart. God unleashed a nation of sinners on that sinful generation of Jews.

What happened to free will?

Men freely did as they desired. That's free-will.

And why didn't he just continue bringing his wrath a la the old testament instead of relying on evil gentiles? What happened to good old flooding & pestilence?

Slaughter, enslavement and exile was God's ultimate punishment for the unfaithful nation - in both the OT and NT.

I'm sorry but how can any christian have such an opposing view to other christians? Sounds like an excuse for racism to me.

Many Christians agree with me on this, both historically and today. The texts I gave from the NT were written by Jewish Christians. And one of the books I have before me is written by a Jewish believer today, The Holocaust: Where Was God by A. Katz. In that he argues it was part of the judgement of God:
In summary, one has either to recognize the Holocaust as part of a continuum of covenantal discipline and judgement, not essentially unlike former catastrophes, or else one is obliged to reject the very category of judgement altogether.p89.

We love the Jewish people and seek their conversion. Many of us also support their national right to a State of their own in their historic land. Hardly a racist agenda.
_________________________________________________________________
Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved.

Bduffman

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

You show me one issue that 2 billion people are in total agreement on and then you may have a point.

I would have thought a religion that professes love could possibly agree on this one.

Bduffman

JimiTime wrote: »

If you took that from Wolfbanes post, I would suggest you were just waiting for an excuse to play that card.

No I wasn't "waiting for an excuse to play that card". But don't you agree?

Bduffman

wolfsbane wrote: »

Bduffman said:

Hatred, conquest, pillage, etc. is always in the sinner's heart. God unleashed a nation of sinners on that sinful generation of Jews.

What about the 1940s generation of Jews. Were they sinful too?

wolfsbane wrote: »

Men freely did as they desired. That's free-will.

But for god to punish men by using other men, wouldn't he have to manipulate them to carry out those acts? And if he didn't manipulate them, then it wasn't him that was doing the punishing.

wolfsbane wrote: »

Slaughter, enslavement and exile was God's ultimate punishment for the unfaithful nation - in both the OT and NT.

But again, other men did the slaughtering & enslavement. Did god manipulate them to do so or did he not? Because either way destroys your argument.

wolfsbane wrote: »

Many Christians agree with me on this, both historically and today. The texts I gave from the NT were written by Jewish Christians. And one of the books I have before me is written by a Jewish believer today, The Holocaust: Where Was God by A. Katz.

Any other christian here want to agree with Wolfsbane? Can no one move yourselves enough to agree with an atheist against a fellow christian?

wolfsbane wrote: »

We love the Jewish people and seek their conversion. Many of us also support their national right to a State of their own in their historic land. Hardly a racist agenda.

Try telling a Jewish person that you llove them after you've to;d them that they are sinners in the eyes of gad & then come back to me & share their reply with us.

Fanny Cradock

Bduffman wrote: »

I would have thought a religion that professes love could possibly agree on this one.

You wont get 2 billion people to agree that black is black. We aren't some hive-mind working in unison.

Are you genuinely surprised that all professing Christians aren't in agreement? You will meet people who say and do all manner of outrageous stuff in the face of what they say they believe. It's all part of the human condition.

The Smurf

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

You wont get 2 billion people to agree that black is black. We aren't some hive-mind working in unison.

Are you genuinely surprised that all professing Christians aren't in agreement? You will meet people who say and do all manner of outrageous stuff in the face of what they say they believe. It's all part of the human condition.

Division, heresy, and schism is a result of sins. Our Lord prayed that they all be one. He gave us a supreme shepherd on earth (the Pope, successor of St Peter) and He promised to guide us in ALL truth, not just some, or part of it, or most of it.... ALL of it. Wherever there is division or separation, sin is the cause. The Pope is the sign and servant of unity and our guarantee that we are following the right path of Our Blessed Lord, and the Magisterium teaches the faith and morals without error.

Fanny Cradock

I'm afraid I neither accept that nor see the relevance to this thread. Perhaps it is better suited to the mega-thread.

Cú Giobach

I was going to open a new thread with this point but saw this one and thought it might be appropriate here (if not please excuse me).

Christians believe Jesus came to earth in order to die for us, so by killing him the Jews were carrying out gods plan.
The Jewish people have been vilified for centuries as "christ killers" , This I have never been able to understand.
Why persecute someone for carrying out your own gods wishes????

gbee

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Why persecute someone for carrying out your own gods wishes????

It's usually because of interpretation, it may suit some bishop or body to promote a twist in teachings for their own end.

The Judas story and Mary Magdalene are two other examples where emotional responses were elicited through emphatic teachings ~ ie, we MUST hate Judas [as we know, Judas was doing Christ's will].

We MUST outcast that prostitute Mary, [Mary Magdalene may in fact be the first Pope of Christ's church ~ note not the Roman Catholic Church].

As they say about some modern-day tabloids, 'the truth never got in the way of a good story'.

Bduffman

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

You wont get 2 billion people to agree that black is black. We aren't some hive-mind working in unison.

Are you genuinely surprised that all professing Christians aren't in agreement? You will meet people who say and do all manner of outrageous stuff in the face of what they say they believe. It's all part of the human condition.

I would expect people to disagree on certain aspects of belief - as you say that is the human condition. But I don't see how two individuals can have completely polarising views (in this case on gods 'punishment' of Jews) and still both call themselves christian. They may both be human but christian...?

Incidently, if you strongly disagree with wolfsbane why don't you let him know? Wouldn't it help to let the more extremist amongst you know that they are in the minority?

wolfsbane

Bduffman said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
Hatred, conquest, pillage, etc. is always in the sinner's heart. God unleashed a nation of sinners on that sinful generation of Jews.
What about the 1940s generation of Jews. Were they sinful too?

They were still in unbelief in their Messiah, so they were indeed sinners. And they were the same nation that violated the covenant God gave to Moses - therefore the inherited curses continue with them.

But you seem to think this view of God's dealing with the Jews is a medieval or modern invention by a lot of racists. Why have you not commented on the Biblical passages I posted? They are the plainest statements of the same teaching.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
Men freely did as they desired. That's free-will.
But for god to punish men by using other men, wouldn't he have to manipulate them to carry out those acts? And if he didn't manipulate them, then it wasn't him that was doing the punishing.

Depends what you mean by manipulate. Did God make gentle souls think evil thoughts and put them in motion? No. Did God allow the evil in their hearts to settle on the idea of mass-murder of the Jews? Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
Slaughter, enslavement and exile was God's ultimate punishment for the unfaithful nation - in both the OT and NT.
But again, other men did the slaughtering & enslavement. Did god manipulate them to do so or did he not? Because either way destroys your argument.

As above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
We love the Jewish people and seek their conversion. Many of us also support their national right to a State of their own in their historic land. Hardly a racist agenda.
Try telling a Jewish person that you llove them after you've to;d them that they are sinners in the eyes of gad & then come back to me & share their reply with us.

No need for me to give personal examples, the great examples are written down for us:
Acts 2:36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”
38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”

40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.” 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.

The religious establishment had a much different response:
Acts 7:51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you. 52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers, 53 who have received the law by the direction of angels and have not kept it.”

54 When they heard these things they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed at him with their teeth. 55 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, 56 and said, “Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!”
57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, stopped their ears, and ran at him with one accord; 58 and they cast him out of the city and stoned him. And the witnesses laid down their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul. 59 And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 Then he knelt down and cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not charge them with this sin.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
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Acts 19:8 And he went into the synagogue and spoke boldly for three months, reasoning and persuading concerning the things of the kingdom of God. 9 But when some were hardened and did not believe, but spoke evil of the Way before the multitude, he departed from them and withdrew the disciples, reasoning daily in the school of Tyrannus. 10 And this continued for two years, so that all who dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.

wolfsbane

gbee wrote: »

It's usually because of interpretation, it may suit some bishop or body to promote a twist in teachings for their own end.

The Judas story and Mary Magdalene are two other examples where emotional responses were elicited through emphatic teachings ~ ie, we MUST hate Judas [as we know, Judas was doing Christ's will].

We MUST outcast that prostitute Mary, [Mary Magdalene may in fact be the first Pope of Christ's church ~ note not the Roman Catholic Church].

As they say about some modern-day tabloids, 'the truth never got in the way of a good story'.

I'm afraid you have imbibed the tabloid mentality. The Biblical teaching on Judas is plain:
Matthew 26:23 He answered and said, “He who dipped his hand with Me in the dish will betray Me. 24 The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born.”

Luke 22:3 Then Satan entered Judas, surnamed Iscariot, who was numbered among the twelve. 4 So he went his way and conferred with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray Him to them. 5 And they were glad, and agreed to give him money.

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.

John 13:2 And supper being ended, the devil having already put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, to betray Him,

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept;[d] and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

Acts 1:25 to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.”

Where does the Bible tell us to reject Mary Magdalene? Or that she was a ruler in the church?
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John 12:3 Then Mary took a pound of very costly oil of spikenard, anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped His feet with her hair. And the house was filled with the fragrance of the oil.
4 But one of His disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, who would betray Him, said, 5 “Why was this fragrant oil not sold for three hundred denarii and given to the poor?” 6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor, but because he was a thief, and had the money box; and he used to take what was put in it.

Bduffman

wolfsbane wrote: »

They were still in unbelief in their Messiah, so they were indeed sinners. And they were the same nation that violated the covenant God gave to Moses - therefore the inherited curses continue with them.

I don't believe your messiah. I haven't been punished (at least in this life )

wolfsbane wrote: »

But you seem to think this view of God's dealing with the Jews is a medieval or modern invention by a lot of racists. Why have you not commented on the Biblical passages I posted? They are the plainest statements of the same teaching.

You expect an atheist to comment on unverified words from an ancient book that they don't believe in as if it were evidence backing your argument? How would that work exactly?

wolfsbane wrote: »

Depends what you mean by manipulate. Did God make gentle souls think evil thoughts and put them in motion? No. Did God allow the evil in their hearts to settle on the idea of mass-murder of the Jews? Yes.

So it was going to happen anyway because of the evil in their hearts? God just simply did nothing & allowed it to happen? But surelly he couldn't have stopped it as he would then be interfering in free will. See?

Look - in fairness at least you are being honest in your opinions. But why do you think no other christian here has backed you up? Their silence is deafening. Do you maybe think you an in a tiny minority?

CIE

Bduffman wrote: »

Apologies if this subject was discussed before but I couldn't find anything relevant on previous threads.
I was at a party the other night & the subject of religion came up (inevitable with very religious, mildly religious & atheists in the mix). The usual subject of 'a god allowing people to die in natural disasters while him being thanked when one person is saved' came up. Someone mentioned the holocaust & how that could be allowed to happen.
And then someone said that the holocaust happened because the Jews were being punished for killing Jesus (cue awkward silence & a change of subject). Now I've heard this before but I didn't think 'normal' people actually believed this.

What is the Christian churches views on this matter? Is it accepted as true? If so, why isn't it said more often? If its not the accepted view, why isn't it condemned more rigourously to ensure people don't spread this kind of ignorance? After all it doesn't do much for the Christian image.

That's certainly not a Christian doctrine; all humanity is guilty of the death of Christ.

wolfsbane wrote: »

Where does the Bible tell us to reject Mary Magdalene? Or that she was a ruler in the church?

Nowhere. Nor does the Bible say she was a prostitute or adultress; the only extraordinary thing mentioned about her is that Jesus cast seven demons out of her (Mark 16:9).