The 'punishment' of Jews

wolfsbane

Bduffman said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
They were still in unbelief in their Messiah, so they were indeed sinners. And they were the same nation that violated the covenant God gave to Moses - therefore the inherited curses continue with them.
I don't believe your messiah. I haven't been punished (at least in this life )

Are you the nation under the Mosaic covenant, and hence its curses? No, you are an individual. If you are a Jew, you might personally suffer national consequences, but the curse of the Law never fell on every individual, then or now.

You, like all mankind, Jew and Gentile, have an appointment with God after death. That's when you will give account.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
But you seem to think this view of God's dealing with the Jews is a medieval or modern invention by a lot of racists. Why have you not commented on the Biblical passages I posted? They are the plainest statements of the same teaching.
You expect an atheist to comment on unverified words from an ancient book that they don't believe in as if it were evidence backing your argument? How would that work exactly?

I expect nothing of the sort. All I expect is you to accept this is Biblical teaching, not the aberration of some racist. You don't have to agree with the Bible's teaching to acknowledge what it actually teaches.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
Depends what you mean by manipulate. Did God make gentle souls think evil thoughts and put them in motion? No. Did God allow the evil in their hearts to settle on the idea of mass-murder of the Jews? Yes.
So it was going to happen anyway because of the evil in their hearts? God just simply did nothing & allowed it to happen? But surelly he couldn't have stopped it as he would then be interfering in free will. See?

God frequently interferes with our 'free-will'. What He doesn't do is make innocent men think evil thoughts, much less carry them out. He decides what evil they will be permitted to do.

Look - in fairness at least you are being honest in your opinions. But why do you think no other christian here has backed you up? Their silence is deafening. Do you maybe think you an in a tiny minority?

I can't speak for anyone else here. Maybe they haven'y thought about it before.

From my reading of historic and contemporary Reformed Christianity, my view is the orthodox one.

It is also plainly the Biblical one, which is the important thing.

BTW, in case anyone thinks that judicial punishment on the Jews implies the Gentiles were not also guilty of murdering the Messiah, that is just as plainly stated in the Bible:
Acts 4:27 “For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.

The exemplary punishment on the Jews comes from their privileged position in God's dealings with mankind. They violated His covenant in the most wicked manner, killing the Son whom He had sent to them.
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1 Thessalonians 2:14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judea in Christ Jesus. For you also suffered the same things from your own countrymen, just as they did from the Judeans, 15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they do not please God and are contrary to all men, 16 forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up the measure of their sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost.

Bduffman

Does any other christian on this forum agree with Wolfsbane?

If other christians do not agree, how can any two christians have such completely opposite views? This is not just simply a difference in interpretation surely? Can it be as Wolfsbane says - that all of you just haven't thought about it before?

PDN

Bduffman wrote: »

Does any other christian on this forum agree with Wolfsbane?

If other christians do not agree, how can any two christians have such completely opposite views? This is not just simply a difference in interpretation surely? Can it be as Wolfsbane says - that all of you just haven't thought about it before?

I don't agree with Wolfsbane. I reject the idea that the Jews are under a curse (except, of course, the curse that all come under because of our own individual sins). My reasoning is that Jesus, on the Cross, prayed "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." I think it probable that God the Father would have answered the dying prayer of God the Son! Of course Wolfsbane maybe hasn't thought about this before.

Christians can hold opposite views on many subjects. We leave the groupthink stuff to others.

wolfsbane

PDN wrote: »

I don't agree with Wolfsbane. I reject the idea that the Jews are under a curse (except, of course, the curse that all come under because of our own individual sins). My reasoning is that Jesus, on the Cross, prayed "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." I think it probable that God the Father would have answered the dying prayer of God the Son! Of course Wolfsbane maybe hasn't thought about this before.

Christians can hold opposite views on many subjects. We leave the groupthink stuff to others.

The forgiveness may have been meant for the executioners rather than the rulers. Or maybe it did indeed cover all the individuals. But it is evident it did not cover the nation. Christ Himself and His apostles warned of the coming wrath and exile, as the passages I quoted show. Here's one more:The Parable of the Wicked Vinedressers

Matthew 21:33 “Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country. 34 Now when vintage-time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit. 35 And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another. 36 Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them. 37 Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 38 But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’ 39 So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him.
40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?”
41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”
42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:


‘ The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the LORD’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’?

43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. 44 And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”


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Luke 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

CIE

But it is evident it did not cover the nation. Christ Himself and His apostles warned of the coming wrath and exile, as the passages I quoted show

No such thing is "evident". Claiming that Christ cursed the nation by contrast to his executioners is a false claim. His death would have been in vain if it weren't to save all nations. Does that make Paul's prayer in Romans 10:1 void?

"Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they might be saved."

Certainly not void.

wolfsbane

CIE said:

Quote:
But it is evident it did not cover the nation. Christ Himself and His apostles warned of the coming wrath and exile, as the passages I quoted show
No such thing is "evident". Claiming that Christ cursed the nation by contrast to his executioners is a false claim. His death would have been in vain if it weren't to save all nations. Does that make Paul's prayer in Romans 10:1 void?
Quote:
"Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they might be saved."
Certainly not void.

Indeed, certainly not void. But you go beyond what I said, for the curse does not end it all. Israel is to be redeemed from the curse, to be brought to repentance and faith. That is Paul's point.

NOW they are cut off, blinded, under God's wrath for their unbelief.

THEN they will be received again:
Romans 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:


“ The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

Note too that it is the nation as a nation that is cut-off, not every individual in it. The elect Jews are a remnant of the nation. They are saved.

One day all of the nation as a whole will be the elect, and of course they will be saved.

BTW, the curse to which I refer is the one spoken of by Moses in the Law:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+28&version=NKJV



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Matthew 23:29 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30 and say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.’
31 “Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt. 33 Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? 34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!’”

drifting

wolfsbane wrote: »

One day all of the nation as a whole will be the elect, and of course they will be saved.

Unfortunately this is not true. The passage to which you refer has to be read in conjunction with:

Rom 9:6 "It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel."

Rom 9:7 "Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned."

Israel stands for those with faith. It is only those with faith that will be saved. Paul is not saying that all those Jews without faith will attain to faith.

Basically the reason that the Jews died in such large numbers in the holocaust was because they were extremely exposed politically and also intensely disliked, due to their lack of God centred religion and love of wealth, especially in Germany but also in Poland. Much Jewish religion became based in Kabbalistic mysticism, and much of it was just plain satanic, having regard to its explicit denunciation of Christ.

The European Jews were out on a limb, and woefully unprepared to defend themselves. Because of their inability to distinguish truth from falsehood and read the signs of the times, they became victims of Nazi deceit, and surrendered themselves to the endless Nazi lies and false promises. Basically Judaism became effectively a sucide cult in the context of Nazi Europe, just like the Jonestowntemple members, who never intended sucide when they went to Jonestown, became a suicide cult when faced with the orders of their murderous leaders.

They became unable to resist the murderers after years of swallowing false religion and disinformation.

SonOfAdam

drifting wrote:

Basically Judaism became effectively a sucide cult in the context of Nazi Europe, just like the Jonestowntemple members, who never intended sucide when they went to Jonestown, became a suicide cult when faced with the orders of their murderous leaders

Whether you think the holocaust is a result of a covenental curse as some do here or it has been used as a reason to inflict all sorts of misery on the jews the above statement cannot be let stand. You are not only blaming the jews for their fate at the hands of the nazi's but actually take it a step further by stating the holocaust was merely a self inflicted mass suicide akin to Jonestown. Thus, in a few strokes of a key pad vindicate the perpetrators of genocide and lay the blame squarely at the victims feet.

PDN

If this thread cannot be conducted without descending into anti-semitism then the thread will be locked and the offending posters banned.

Please take note that comparing Jews in Germany to a suicide cult, or implying that they were responsible in some way for the monstrosities inflicted on them, is considered highly offensive in most civilised company, and certainly so on this forum.

wolfsbane

drifting wrote: »

Unfortunately this is not true. The passage to which you refer has to be read in conjunction with:

Rom 9:6 "It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel."

Rom 9:7 "Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned."

Israel stands for those with faith. It is only those with faith that will be saved. Paul is not saying that all those Jews without faith will attain to faith.

Basically the reason that the Jews died in such large numbers in the holocaust was because they were extremely exposed politically and also intensely disliked, due to their lack of God centred religion and love of wealth, especially in Germany but also in Poland. Much Jewish religion became based in Kabbalistic mysticism, and much of it was just plain satanic, having regard to its explicit denunciation of Christ.

The European Jews were out on a limb, and woefully unprepared to defend themselves. Because of their inability to distinguish truth from falsehood and read the signs of the times, they became victims of Nazi deceit, and surrendered themselves to the endless Nazi lies and false promises. Basically Judaism became effectively a sucide cult in the context of Nazi Europe, just like the Jonestowntemple members, who never intended sucide when they went to Jonestown, became a suicide cult when faced with the orders of their murderous leaders.

They became unable to resist the murderers after years of swallowing false religion and disinformation.

You totally ignore that Paul specifically made the distinction between the believing remnant and the unbelieving majority, yet went on to say that that would change - one day all Israel would be saved, not just a remnant. He emphasises that the present case is temporary.

Some times Israel is indeed used of all the faithful, Jew and Gentile believers. But in Romans 11 it is used of the nation of the Jews alone.

I take what you say about Israel's moral and intellectual disabilities in the face of the Nazis.
B]I'm sure you agree that does not make the Nazis any the less culpable for the mass-murder of the Jewish people.[/B
Such a spiritual condition is to be expected in their unbelieving state. But Paul's point is that their contrariness, etc. is only temporary. One day God is going to visit them:
Zechariah 12:10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.



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Isaiah 59:9 Therefore justice is far from us,
Nor does righteousness overtake us;
We look for light, but there is darkness!
For brightness, but we walk in blackness!
10 We grope for the wall like the blind,
And we grope as if we had no eyes;
We stumble at noonday as at twilight;
We are as dead men in desolate places.