The magic "S"

Tackleberrywho

gunhappy_ie wrote: »

the supressor cuts down on energy from round as is, why use would I as a Hunter want to lose any more power, The .223 has shot bunnies out to nearly 400 yards head shots, the .308 is for deer.

So low velocity ammo not for me.

To the best of my knowledge subsonic in centrefire rifles is restricted.

I play within the rules set down. my 40 cal is prob subsonic with most ammo, however pistols are Generally regarded as low velocity anyway in regards to ammo

You could have bought suitable ammo without havin the expence/ordeal in gettin the "S" on your licence

It also severly reduces range because of the drop in velocity of the round fined.

I would have thought low velocity ammo would be better for you as generally subsonic ammo there has a very heavy head... eg.... for my 9mm i have to use 147grn anything less and the suppressor is ineffective. by the way im not implying that i or any1 should hunt with a handgun im just using it as an example.



You arent making sence at all and you obviously havent even thougth about what your saying or what Section F of the law implys.

Subsonic most certainly restricted isnt as far as im concerned and if it was since I have a licence for a restricted (4 actually) firearm then i believe Im entitled to have such ammo




I believe you play safe... its very hard to play by the rules as 1 rule says x... while another says y.... perfect example.....

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055975986


Any yes your right .40 cal and in particular .45 cal ammo is produced as subsonic normally as the weight and shape of the round do not allow it to travel supersonic... but it can still be bought here ![/QUOTE]

I really wish i could find Sparks quote on sub sonic ammo. i think it was in regards to a .308 but not sure.

I've to go now; meeting up with a mate to bash bunnies.
However I will make a few phone calls to a few mates in the know and see if I can get it in writing the why and why not's.

In regards to not making sense, It does not make sense to me either; But Hey I'm no legal eagle.

Laws were made by solicitors barristers, rarely by shooters

Back to my earlier post

SPARKS WHERE ARE YOU lol

rrpc

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

A Moderator is restricted on a centrefire.
Both have mods on so both are restricted.

No they are not as of SI337/2009. Even if they were (which they were up to August 2009), it would have no bearing on the muzzle velocity of the ammunition. As I already said, a non-restricted calibre means non-restricted ammunition, the only impact having a restricted action or other attachment that would be deemed restricted would be in the process you would go through to get a licence. In other words you'd have to apply to your Chief Super rather than your Super.

Twas sparkie who started the whole subsonic centrefire restricted bit, do a search of threads on here; it's here somewhere

I think you should do the search, because I've never read anything by Sparks saying that.

It's complete nonsense from beginning to end.

rrpc

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

To the best of my knowledge on an air rifle it's ok, again sparks to confirm.

Air rifle are not my passion so I am not certain, I think the main deal is with centrefire rifles.

A silencer for a firearm requires a licence. An air rifle is a firearm so a silencer for it requires a licence.

Though I could never understand why you'd need a silencer for something that goes psssfffttt

skipz

rrpc wrote: »

A silencer for a firearm requires a licence. An air rifle is a firearm so a silencer for it requires a licence.

Though I could never understand why you'd need a silencer for something that goes psssfffttt

It makes quite the difference. Without the silencer its like popping a large ballon, quite loud, and thats not good when hunting at 35yards!:eek:

It wasn't me!

Centrefire moderators are not restricted.

Subsonic ammunition of any variety is not restricted.

Now, the first part has been said dozens of times since the law was changed, and several of those were directed at you as I recall. The second part is in your imagination, and the paragraph you quoted quite plainly has exactly nothing to do with it.

Cass

I have to ask this, and as it was brought up on this thread i'll ask it here.

Why would anyone use subsonic ammo in a centrefire rifle espeially a .308 or some similarly large caliber. Subsonic is running at 1150fps max. With a 100yd zero you are looking at 2 feet drop at 200, 7 at 300, 16 at 400 and 28 at 500. Now they are some very rough figures using a 110 gr bullet with a muzzle velocity of 1150 and a BC of about 0.380 - 0.450. Thats p**s poor.

Not to mention the impact energy is 323ft/lb at the muzzle with it dropping to 180 or less at 500yds. Might be good enough to kill a sick rabbit, but definitely not deer legal and in no way even slightly useful for target work.

Answers on a post(card)

rrpc

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Centrefire moderators are not restricted.

Subsonic ammunition of any variety is not restricted.

Not quite true. Subsonic ammo for anything over .308 would be restricted as it is for use exclusively in a restricted firearm.

But no ammo would be restricted because it's subsonic.

rrpc

ezridax wrote: »

I have to ask this, and as it was brought up on this thread i'll ask it here.

Why would anyone use subsonic ammo in a centrefire rifle espeially a .308 or some similarly large caliber. Subsonic is running at 1150fps max. With a 100yd zero you are looking at 2 feet drop at 200, 7 at 300, 16 at 400 and 28 at 500. Now they are some very rough figures using a 110 gr bullet with a muzzle velocity of 1150 and a BC of about 0.380 - 0.450. Thats p**s poor.

Not to mention the impact energy is 323ft/lb at the muzzle with it dropping to 180 or less at 500yds. Might be good enough to kill a sick rabbit, but definitely not deer legal and in no way even slightly useful for target work.

Answers on a post(card)

If you wanted to shoot at short ranges without the need for massive energy (for example shooting rabbits) you could quite conceivably use a subsonic round.

The lads who shoot gallery centrefire also require slower ammo (albeit in pistol calibres) for the shorter range matches. I can't remember the specific rules for gallery centrefire, but AFAIK they require calibres above .30" which could also include rifle calibres with lighter loads.

Cass

Forgot about Gallery rifle. Nothing over 2150fps/1496ft/lb energy and no "downloaded" full bore rifle ammo.

Other than that i cannot see the use of subsonic ammo or to be more specific from a target or hunting perspective in a full rifle setup. Personal view.

It wasn't me!

rrpc wrote: »

Not quite true. Subsonic ammo for anything over .308 would be restricted as it is for use exclusively in a restricted firearm.

But no ammo would be restricted because it's subsonic.

Pedantic, but correct. I should of course have qualified that.

gunhappy_ie

PROBLEM SOLVED.......

FROM THE HORSES MOUTH IE THE DOJ.....

Just off the phone from firearms section in the DOJ (sorry i cant remember the womans name but as always i find the DOJ pleasent and very heplfull to deal with no matter how much i annoy them with questions... so thank you)

If you have a licence for a firearm then you can purchase ANY type of ammuntion for that firearm subsonic or not. Where the restricted part comes into play is that certain ammuntion can only be sold by a restricted dealer.

If you saw subsonic .223/.308/.338 ammo anywhere in europe and wanted to import it provised you have a licence for such a calibre you may do so (within the restrictions of your licence ie 100 rounds at a time or get a dealer to bulk import it for you and you buy as you need it.)

Before some smart arse points out .................

Ammunition in catagorys A-G.....

If a dealer or private individual imports ammuntion it has to be cleared from by the DOJ.

Cat A,B,C,D,E and G would all need a very F'in valid reason as to why it would be needed..... but it is not prohibited ! ( there is another law that does prohibit certain types of ammo mainly ammo that delivers noxous gas.)

Cat F ammo which concerns us is the routine cat that all dealers/individuals use for everyday imports.

Tackleberrywho

gunhappy_ie wrote: »

PROBLEM SOLVED.......

FROM THE HORSES MOUTH IE THE DOJ.....

Just off the phone from firearms section in the DOJ (sorry i cant remember the womans name but as always i find the DOJ pleasent and very heplfull to deal with no matter how much i annoy them with questions... so thank you)

If you have a licence for a firearm then you can purchase ANY type of ammuntion for that firearm subsonic or not. Where the restricted part comes into play is that certain ammuntion can only be sold by a restricted dealer.

If you saw subsonic .223/.308/.338 ammo anywhere in europe and wanted to import it provised you have a licence for such a calibre you may do so (within the restrictions of your licence ie 100 rounds at a time or get a dealer to bulk import it for you and you buy as you need it.)

Before some smart arse points out .................

Ammunition in catagorys A-G.....

If a dealer or private individual imports ammuntion it has to be cleared from by the DOJ.

Cat A,B,C,D,E and G would all need a very F'in valid reason as to why it would be needed..... but it is not prohibited ! ( there is another law that does prohibit certain types of ammo mainly ammo that delivers noxous gas.)

Cat F ammo which concerns us is the routine cat that all dealers/individuals use for everyday imports.

Thanks for that gunhappy.

Some others on here mainly like to heckle.
I'm glad that has been cleared up.

gunhappy_ie

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Thanks for that gunhappy.

Some others on here mainly like to heckle.
I'm glad that has been cleared up.

So now it returns to what i was origionally saying though....

You are using a suppressor with supersonic ammo where the properly selected ammo would work just as well with out the cost/hassle of getting a suppressor.

Tackleberrywho

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Centrefire moderators are not restricted.

Subsonic ammunition of any variety is not restricted.

Now, the first part has been said dozens of times since the law was changed, and several of those were directed at you as I recall. The second part is in your imagination, and the paragraph you quoted quite plainly has exactly nothing to do with it.

maybe it was my imagination, Hard to be right all the time IWM :rolleyes:

Tackleberrywho

rrpc wrote: »

If you wanted to shoot at short ranges without the need for massive energy (for example shooting rabbits) you could quite conceivably use a subsonic round.

The lads who shoot gallery centrefire also require slower ammo (albeit in pistol calibres) for the shorter range matches. I can't remember the specific rules for gallery centrefire, but AFAIK they require calibres above .30" which could also include rifle calibres with lighter loads.

Subsonic .223 would have very limited effective range on foxes. perhaps ok on bunnies but hold over would totally defeat the point of a .223 in the first place

rrpc

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Subsonic .223 would have very limited effective range on foxes. perhaps ok on bunnies but hold over would totally defeat the point of a .223 in the first place

That's why scopes and sights have windage and elevation adjustments :rolleyes:

If all you have is a .223 and want to shoot short range, subsonic would be fine.

Adjusting your sights is hardly a massive undertaking.

bunny shooter

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

............Some others on here mainly like to heckle.

:eek: unreal :rolleyes:

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

............I'm glad that has been cleared up.

You actually started the confusion with your incorrect statements and makeyuppy stuff :rolleyes:

rrpc

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Thanks for that gunhappy.

Some others on here mainly like to heckle.
I'm glad that has been cleared up.

It was cleared up over 20 posts ago, you just refused to accept the fact. I suspect this discussion would have meandered on for another 10 pages like the one about the swift except gunhappy_ie got a quote from the DOJ that you couldn't argue against.

It's unreal how black you'll insist white is :rolleyes:

Tackleberrywho

bunny shooter wrote: »

:eek: unreal :rolleyes:



You actually started the confusion with your incorrect statements and makeyuppy stuff :rolleyes:

Ah bunny, I thought we were friends now.

If I misquoted the bible I am sorry.:eek: Hard to be correct all the time.

On a lighter note ; popped a few grey crows out wit Dusty87 today.
The mod worked well with Hornady!

Any word on your magic "s"?

Tackleberrywho

rrpc wrote: »

It was cleared up over 20 posts ago, you just refused to accept the fact. I suspect this discussion would have meandered on for another 10 pages like the one about the swift except gunhappy_ie got a quote from the DOJ that you couldn't argue against.

It's unreal how black you'll insist white is :rolleyes:

A RRPC, no need for meanders; you know I was right about the swift as no one ever proved me wrong in black and white :p:p:p:p:p:p

gunhappy_ie

here is another spanner in the works...

I have never heard of a comercially available subsonic .223 that is reliable in S/As or has the noise reduction that is quoted as a subsonic .223 goes against its origional design to be a high velocity round.

I have heard of several manufacturers producing ammo in the US with varied results but the market is so limited that it would be rare in europe.

Best bet it to get HPS to handload a round.... €€€€€€€€

Tackleberrywho

rrpc wrote: »

That's why scopes and sights have windage and elevation adjustments :rolleyes:

If all you have is a .223 and want to shoot short range, subsonic would be fine.

Adjusting your sights is hardly a massive undertaking.

A total waste of time RRPC, you must never have gone bunny shooting if you would bother with subs in a centrefire;)

If you want scope adjustments why buy a relatively flat 200 yard round:rolleyes:

dCorbus

Lapua do a subsonic .308 - but as they say themselves it's for "special purposes"!;):D

gunhappy_ie

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

A total waste of time RRPC, you must never have gone bunny shooting if you would bother with subs in a centrefire;)

If you want scope adjustments why buy a relatively flat 200 yard round:rolleyes:

Totally lost as to whos takin the pi$s out of who now but ladies ill clear a few things up ....

RRPC.... agreed .... adjusting scope for a subsonic shot isnt time consuming at all. To any1 half interested in shooting it wouldnt be hard to do.

Tacleberry.... I dont think uve a clue what your talkin about. Subsonic ammo has to be dialed in or accounted for when sighting in.

Not only will the decrease in velocity reduce range and increase bullet drop but a suppressor also need to be dialed into the gun that it is firing or you will end up shooting off center as well as low from your origional point of aim.

If you purchase a cheaper suppressor this facility would be achieved by using a spacer or washer but any of the highend suppressors ive seen have allowed for it.

If your refering to .223 isnt a relativly flat round.... i know as i see in use daily.

gunhappy_ie

dCorbus wrote: »

Lapua do a subsonic .308 - but as they say themselves it's for "special purposes"!;):D

I saw that a while ago abd is love to give it a try .. but i also have seen there prices over here eeeek !!

At the min (although im all out) i use privi match in my G3..... pulling the trigger at 100 yards i hear the steel plate "kadingg" and the action re-cock.... i have to say it brings a tear to my eye

Tackleberrywho

gunhappy_ie wrote: »

Totally lost as to whos takin the pi$s out of who now but ladies ill clear a few things up ....

RRPC.... agreed .... adjusting scope for a subsonic shot isnt time consuming at all. To any1 half interested in shooting it wouldnt be hard to do.

Tacleberry.... I dont think uve a clue what your talkin about. Subsonic ammo has to be dialed in or accounted for when sighting in.

Not only will the decrease in velocity reduce range and increase bullet drop but a suppressor also need to be dialed into the gun that it is firing or you will end up shooting off center as well as low from your origional point of aim.

If you purchase a cheaper suppressor this facility would be achieved by using a spacer or washer but any of the highend suppressors ive seen have allowed for it.

If your refering to .223 isnt a relativly flat round.... i know as i see in use daily.

I Zero mod on, only take it off for cleaning/storage. The Mod slows round down yes, ~ 2" @200 low. So why would I want to slow it down any more?
I want the .223 to do what it was designed for, Varminting. Subsonic centrefire is not Normally used for hunting, hence availability in the shops...

An ASE Ultra was far from cheap.
and I have point of aim on bunnies foxes greys and maggers 0-200 +/- 1.5 inches

No dialing, sialing will and may be done out past my 200 yard zero range if required, MOA increments on scope reduce the need for this.

By the way Where did you get your Sabre arms threaded for a mod ?;)

gunhappy_ie

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

I Zero mod on, only take it off for cleaning/storage. The Mod slows round down yes, ~ 2" @200 low. So why would I want to slow it down any more?
I want the .223 to do what it was designed for, Varminting. Subsonic centrefire is not Normally used for hunting, hence availability in the shops...

An ASE Ultra was far from cheap.
and I have point of aim on bunnies foxes greys and maggers 0-200 +/- 1.5 inches

No dialing, sialing will and may be done out past my 200 yard zero range if required, MOA increments on scope reduce the need for this.

By the way Where did you get your Sabre arms threaded for a mod ?;)

Theres 1 of us not getting the others point here.... but well keep tryin until I educate you :P:P:P

.223 subsonic ammo isnt available not because it unpopular as a semi auto hunting round... ( how many AR varints are in the US ? ).

Its not available because (and taken from the cartridges of the world, 10th edition) " One of the requirements for the cartridge was that the projectile have a retained velocity in excess of the speed of sound (about 1,080 fps at sea level) at 500 yards...."

In other words .223 was never intended to be subsonic. The above mentioned book also goes on to give a Federal factory load velocity as 3000 fps (its the slowest quoted).....

So why would you want it slower... to make use of your suppressor.

Rather than spend your money/time on a suppressor you could have tryed different ammo types, you even mentioned on another post that you got a import permit so you know the process if there is a particular brand that you cannot get here.

Sorry where my confusion came from was i though you were using the rifle with both suppressor on and at other times with it off.

I dont have a saber arms but any firearm that I have came with a threaded barrel. If it didnt id do it myself as Im an armourer.





Oh almost forgot.... ASE Ultra.... compared to Brugger and Thomet Impuls II-A ....its cheap !

Tackleberrywho

gunhappy_ie wrote: »

Theres 1 of us not getting the others point here.... but well keep tryin until I educate you :P:P:P"Educate please:rolleyes:

.223 subsonic ammo isnt available not because it unpopular as a semi auto hunting round... ( how many AR varints are in the US ? ).

Its not available because (and taken from the cartridges of the world, 10th edition) " One of the requirements for the cartridge was that the projectile have a retained velocity in excess of the speed of sound (about 1,080 fps at sea level) at 500 yards...."
As below that it does not do what it was designed for.
In other words .223 was never intended to be subsonic. The above mentioned book also goes on to give a Federal factory load velocity as 3000 fps (its the slowest quoted).....

So why would you want it slower... to make use of your suppressor.

Rather than spend your money/time on a suppressor you could have tryed different ammo types, you even mentioned on another post that you got a import permit so you know the process if there is a particular brand that you cannot get here.

Sorry where my confusion came from was i though you were using the rifle with both suppressor on and at other times with it off.

I dont have a saber arms but any firearm that I have came with a threaded barrel. If it didnt id do it myself as Im an armourer.

Interesting....RFD?



Oh almost forgot.... ASE Ultra.... compared to Brugger and Thomet Impuls II-A ....its cheap !

I like red mist from a bunny/fox/grey
I'm increasing my barrel from a 23" to a 28" to peak the performance of the calibre with some inter-shoots on bunnies and greys out to the 600 mark.

Slowing down a round seems counter productive to me, keeping my ears working and not frightening the neighbors cattle/horses/pigs is more important to me; as the neighbors let me shoot their land when ever i please.

A mod on a .223 or a .308 In my experience is a shooters aid.
Reduces noise and makes shooting more pleasant and in some cases more accurate.

Do you mind me asking you what you shoot with your .223? and at what ranges?;)

rrpc

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

A RRPC, no need for meanders; you know I was right about the swift as no one ever proved me wrong in black and white :p:p:p:p:p:p

Only in what you're pleased to call your mind

Tackleberrywho

rrpc wrote: »

Only in what you're pleased to call your mind

Meandered no, Warped YES