The magic "S"

gunhappy_ie

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

I like red mist from a bunny/fox/grey
I'm increasing my barrel from a 23" to a 28" to peak the performance of the calibre with some inter-shoots on bunnies and greys out to the 600 mark.

Slowing down a round seems counter productive to me, keeping my ears working and not frightening the neighbors cattle/horses/pigs is more important to me; as the neighbors let me shoot their land when ever i please.

A mod on a .223 or a .308 In my experience is a shooters aid.
Reduces noise and makes shooting more pleasant and in some cases more accurate.

Do you mind me asking you what you shoot with your .223? and at what ranges?;)

unfortunatly not a RFD..... YET !


Increasing your barrel length will increase your projectile velocity ... I hope you know that.

OK well start again ... you consider slowing down a .223 as counter productive...but that is exactly what your suppressor is doing has to do and is designed to do.... a suppressor is only a gas expansion chamber and it slows down a round.... if correct ammo is used it will slow it down to below super sonic speeds ie less than 1080 feet per second. If incorrect ammo is used it will have little to no effect.

Currently .... 223 is 3 times that speed at least depending on what your using. That is how it still is supersonic at 500 yards ( one of its design specifications). The way your doing it youd be as well off putting a paperweight on the end of your barrel because thats all your suppressor currently is.... weight ! The sound reduction you are getting is minimal as you are not using the correct ammo so you arent doing your ears/neighbours/aunts/uncles/livestock any favors.

If you think your gonna be shootin bunnies out to 600 yards with a suppressed rifle then your in for a shock. If properly suppressed is be suprised if you got past 300 meters (excluding aiming in the air like an artillery piece)

.223 and 308 is pleasent to shoot without a mod anyway but it will in all cases increased accuracy when the correct range is used.

My .223.... i shoot to 200 yards because its semi auto and is an ex service rifle so the flip up sights with 200 or 500m leave alot to be desired. ill eventually make up a scope mount for her and see what shell do then but id expect inch groupings at 100m (fingers crossed)

As regards a subsonic .223..... forget it (I have) unless your gonna load your own IF that ever comes in....... oh ya .. or if you have a supplyer or millitary stuff !

Tackleberrywho

gunhappy_ie wrote: »

unfortunatly not a RFD..... YET !


Increasing your barrel length will increase your projectile velocity ... I hope you know that.

OK well start again ... you consider slowing down a .223 as counter productive...but that is exactly what your suppressor is doing has to do and is designed to do.... a suppressor is only a gas expansion chamber and it slows down a round.... if correct ammo is used it will slow it down to below super sonic speeds ie less than 1080 feet per second. If incorrect ammo is used it will have little to no effect.

Currently .... 223 is 3 times that speed at least depending on what your using. That is how it still is supersonic at 500 yards ( one of its design specifications). The way your doing it youd be as well off putting a paperweight on the end of your barrel because thats all your suppressor currently is.... weight ! The sound reduction you are getting is minimal as you are not using the correct ammo so you arent doing your ears/neighbours/aunts/uncles/livestock any favors.

If you think your gonna be shootin bunnies out to 600 yards with a suppressed rifle then your in for a shock. If properly suppressed is be suprised if you got past 300 meters (excluding aiming in the air like an artillery piece)

.223 and 308 is pleasent to shoot without a mod anyway but it will in all cases increased accuracy when the correct range is used.

My .223.... i shoot to 200 yards because its semi auto and is an ex service rifle so the flip up sights with 200 or 500m leave alot to be desired. ill eventually make up a scope mount for her and see what shell do then but id expect inch groupings at 100m (fingers crossed)

As regards a subsonic .223..... forget it (I have) unless your gonna load your own IF that ever comes in....... oh ya .. or if you have a supplyer or millitary stuff !

I never wanted subs lol

All I ever want is tuning up, not down.
I use a mod for one reason to keep my ears working!

Not to SILENCE it just moderate the noise to an acceptable level.
So I can also shoot bunnies at dawn without waking up the folks (rabbits USED to be a problem in my garden)

The only time I used subs was briefly in a .22lr many years ago.
I was not that impressed as the .22 knock down was weak enough as it was.

gunhappy_ie

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

I never wanted subs lol

All I ever want is tuning up, not down.
I use a mod for one reason to keep my ears working!

Not to SILENCE it just moderate the noise to an acceptable level.
So I can also shoot bunnies at dawn without waking up the folks (rabbits USED to be a problem in my garden)

The only time I used subs was briefly in a .22lr many years ago.
I was not that impressed as the .22 knock down was weak enough as it was.

Awwwww how the story unfolds :P

Do you not use hearin protection or something ?

Id love to test your rifle and see just how much it reduces noise by... in my opinion.... not much at all !

It wasn't me!

On my .25-06, with a moderator, there's a sharp crack, no ringing of my ears. Without it, it's a very loud boom, and my ears ring for several minutes. It really does make a huge difference. Now, make no mistake, it's not quiet, but it's significantly quieter.

rrpc

gunhappy_ie wrote: »

Awwwww how the story unfolds :P

Do you not use hearin protection or something ?

Id love to test your rifle and see just how much it reduces noise by... in my opinion.... not much at all !

It certainly won't reduce the sonic crack which is the loudest and most persistent sound from a supersonic round and which carries a greater distance than the initial report.

johngalway

As I said in another post recently, I unwisely (from a hearing point of view) stood safely behind a rock down range of a moderated .223. It was loud enough to both hurt my ears and leave them ringing, in other words, plenty bloody loud.

From behind the same rifle, when moderated it was lovely and quiet, a joy to shoot.

I shoot an unmoderated .223 myself and depending on what I'm shooting towards it ranks from "That was quite loud but didn't hurt" to "*$^"! MY (&*£&%$ EARS!"

I've heard a moderated .243 from behind the rifle and that was also a pleasure.

Draw your own conclusions, mine are (moderated);

Behind the gun = John
Infront of the gun = :eek: John

Grizzly 45

[

.223 subsonic ammo isnt available not because it unpopular as a semi auto hunting round... ( how many AR varints are in the US ? ).

Also some states question in the US its legality of using it for hunting and possesion.Also with reloading over there,it isnt a big deal to run up a few sub sonic loads for your rifle to play around with if you have a can and want to set it up to a semi rifle or whatever..Ergo,not a big commercial seller.

Oh almost forgot.... ASE Ultra.... compared to Brugger and Thomet Impuls II-A ....its cheap !

[/QUOTE]

On that point,there are cans out there now that WILL handle standard.223/5.56 ammo and will silence the round.But they are expensive and I doubt yet for sale outside CONUS,if ever, as they are Milspec.
However IF there is any company doing one it would be B&T.As Gunhappy said .They are not cheap either.



It

certainly won't reduce the sonic crack which is the loudest and most persistent sound from a supersonic round and which carries a greater distance than the initial report.

That is one of the quandrums that is unsolvable at the moment.
Reduce the powder load the round goes subsonic,lose range and power,and functioning action on a semi,which is another big noise problem. Power it up,it goes supersonic.
However,seeing that we are mostly shooting bunnies and deer, rather than enemy combatants..is that vitally important??

rrpc

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

That is one of the quandrums that is unsolvable at the moment.
Reduce the powder load the round goes subsonic,lose range and power,and functioning action on a semi,which is another big noise problem. Power it up,it goes supersonic.
However,seeing that we are mostly shooting bunnies and deer, rather than enemy combatants..is that vitally important??

If your stated purpose is to avoid waking the neighbours, then you've failed miserably at the first count.

Grizzly 45

Depends on the neighbours location,wind direction,obstacles in their line of sigt/sound and what exactly they would hear.BOOOM!! CRACK! or just CRACK! As in reality there is no totally "silent" silencer.You will suppress,or modify the noise,but not silence it totally.

rrpc

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Depends on the neighbours location,wind direction,obstacles in their line of sigt/sound and what exactly they would hear.BOOOM!! CRACK! or just CRACK! As in reality there is no totally "silent" silencer.You will suppress,or modify the noise,but not silence it totally.

From the standpoint of anyone up to 1000 yards or more from the shot, the noise of the sonic crack alone would be sufficient to be heard clearly even inside a house.

The only beneficiary of the use of a moderator (as Johngalway pointed out earlier) is the person behind the rifle.

gunhappy_ie

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

[


Also some states question in the US its legality of using it for hunting and possesion.Also with reloading over there,it isnt a big deal to run up a few sub sonic loads for your rifle to play around with if you have a can and want to set it up to a semi rifle or whatever..Ergo,not a big commercial seller.


Another problem is that anything for civilian use isnt cycling the action and in some cases running so dirty they jam the gun up.....

The round for suppresson.... .300whisper ... and it will cycle in semi autos too unfotunatly its a mainly a handload although 1 or 2 companies manufacture it... corbon springs to mind.

On that point,there are cans out there now that WILL handle standard.223/5.56 ammo and will silence the round.But they are expensive and I doubt yet for sale outside CONUS,if ever, as they are Milspec.
However IF there is any company doing one it would be B&T.As Gunhappy said .They are not cheap either.


You fired the pistol thats as good as it gets unless i run the can wet.... apparently reduces it a few more db :):)

gunhappy_ie

rrpc wrote: »

The only beneficiary of the use of a moderator (as Johngalway pointed out earlier) is the person behind the rifle.

cant dissagree more.

While as grizzly already said nothing can be slienced completely but with a correctly suppressed firearm the noise signature is reduced and the further away you go the quicker it dissapates to nothin.

rrpc

gunhappy_ie wrote: »

cant dissagree more.

While as grizzly already said nothing can be slienced completely but with a correctly suppressed firearm the noise signature is reduced and the further away you go the quicker it dissapates to nothin.

Unless the silencer has a built in physics nullification field that automatically turns off the sonic crack of a supersonic projectile I can't find myself agreeing with that statement.

Unless we're back to discussing subsonic ammo again.

gunhappy_ie

rrpc wrote: »

Unless the silencer has a built in physics nullification field that automatically turns off the sonic crack of a supersonic projectile I can't find myself agreeing with that statement.

Unless we're back to discussing subsonic ammo again.

Yes were back talkin about using subsonic ammo with a suppressor... IMO I wouldnt spend the money on a suppressor without correct ammo being run through it.

johngalway

Starting to lose the will to live reading this thread. Are people swapping answers to unasked questions to further their cause or what?

Mod with sub .22lr, pretty much firing pin click and thud of impact.

Mod with HV .22lr sonic crack plus thud of impact.

Don't know who would use subsonic centrefire rounds here, which leaves shooters hearing protection as the main benefit, with confusion of quarry species as a big runner up, last horse in the race will be reduction in over all noise level/nuisance factor, compared to large unmoderated bang.

Is there any longer a point to this thread, or am I missing something important?

Duck's hoop

Do you see many on the range? Does it not affect zero if you take them on and off? I took mine off and things are consistent again.

Miss more than ever.

Moderators I mean.

johngalway

Duck's hoop wrote: »

Do you see many on the range? Does it not affect zero if you take them on and off? I took mine off and things are consistent again.

Miss more than ever.

Your Point Of Impact will definitely change when you add or remove a moderator as you are adding/removing weight from the barrel.

Most people with mods will use them consistently. Otherwise you're going to have to reset your scope for different zeros, which frankly would be a pain in the ass.

Grizzly 45

Taint necessarily so RR.
The silencer mightnt do that but ,the human ear does. We hear in a non linear way.,and the further away we are from a noise the less it sounds obviously.

Put it in simple terms.Yes you wont get rid of sonic crack that is a given,[more or less],as that is the seconday noise of a firearms workings .But what we want to get rid of is the BOOM which is the most and primary noise of the gunshot.This any silencer will do .
So what does this mean for our sunday morning snoozing couple?
Without the silencer,they will hear a BOOM CRACK and be woken from their slumbers.Again depending on various local factors and terrain.
With the silencer they should just hear,more or less a CRACK,but not register it as a gunshot,more as a Zzzzz.zzzzz CRACK! Huh??Wha dat??ZZZZZZzzzzz!:)Again depending on your local conditions and terrain.If,for some reason you are shooting out their bedroom window or outside it or along a line of telegraph poles this wont hold true.But generally I dont think many of us do that.:P

Next thing is the decibel level of things.

From J Trubidy's book Silencers in the 1980s [Paladin Press]

Threshold of hearing is 5 Db
Country home 20/25Db
Average home 30/50Db
Backround music 55/60 Db
Office[ start of annoying ] 70Db 45,380, 22lr silenced by a Soinac
Normal conversation 75Db
Electric typewriter 80Db
Loud singing [ear damage] 85 Db
Food Blender 90Db unsilenced .22
Newspaper press 95 Db
Loud classical music 100Db 45,.380 unsilenced
Wood Router 105 Db
Lawnmower 110Db
Rock concert [uncomfortable ]115 Db
Chainsaw 120 Db
Thunder 125 Db
Jack Hammer [painful] 130Db
Air raid siren 135 Db
Modern techno gigI]my personal experiance,tested at [/I][B]145Db[/B][I[/I]



Again our snoozing couple shouldnt be woken by your silencer if it is doing its job correctly.It should be throwing out no more again depending on various factors no more than 80Db.And it's not as if this is a continous repetitious noise either.Unless the bunnies have started shooting back at you.:eek::eek: and you have to shoot your way out of there.

To say the only person getting any benefit from a silencer is behind the gun is a misnomer in the least.

Another problem is that anything for civilian use isnt cycling the action and in some cases running so dirty they jam the gun up.....

The round for suppresson.... .300whisper ... and it will cycle in semi autos too unfotunatly its a mainly a handload although 1 or 2 companies manufacture it... corbon springs to mind.

But then again,If you are hunting or in a Military situation that requires more than one silenced shot in less than five secs.WTF went wrong???You still have to deal with firearm action noise.Why some pistols have slide locks on them ,and you have to hand cycle the action.

LongRifle

gunhappy_ie wrote: »

... you consider slowing down a .223 as counter productive...but that is exactly what your suppressor is doing has to do and is designed to do.... a suppressor is only a gas expansion chamber and it slows down a round.... if correct ammo is used it will slow it down to below super sonic speeds ie less than 1080 feet per second. If incorrect ammo is used it will have little to no effect.

The only thing right about that quoted statement is that a suppressor is a gas expansion chamber.

A modern suppressor in no way slows down the round. It simply allows the gas traveling behind the bullet to expand and cool somewhat before hitting the outside air, which, by the way, is what produces the loud "boom" of an unsuppressed centerfire round.

The reason the POI of the round shifts, usually downward, after you attach a suppressor to the muzzle of your firearm is because the extra weight right on the end of the barrel significantly changes the harmonics, or "barrel whip", of your barrel which releases the round at a slightly different angle from when you zeroed without the suppressor attached.

If you don't believe me, get a chronograph and fire a few before and after rounds through it and see for yourself.

As for noise reduction, It's simple. A .22lr is a great example:

Fire a .22lr with subsonic ammo, no suppressor = Mini boom.
Fire a .22lr with supersonic ammo, no suppressor = Mini boom + Mini crack.

Fire a .22lr with subsonic ammo, suppressor attached = Sound of bullet passing through the air.
Fire a .22lr with supersonic ammo, suppressor attached = Mini crack.

It’s exactly the same for a centerfire rifle.

Duck's hoop

Have to say that 'barrel whip' makes more sense than 'harmonics', to me.

Cheers for that.

For accuracy I'd say leave them off and get good cans. A loud noise is a loud noise to most quarry.

Your neighbours is different.

gunhappy_ie

LongRifle wrote: »

The only thing right about that quoted statement is that a suppressor is a gas expansion chamber.

A modern suppressor in no way slows down the round. It simply allows the gas traveling behind the bullet to expand and cool somewhat before hitting the outside air, which, by the way, is what produces the loud "boom" of an unsuppressed centerfire round.

The reason the POI of the round shifts, usually downward, after you attach a suppressor to the muzzle of your firearm is because the extra weight right on the end of the barrel significantly changes the harmonics, or "barrel whip", of your barrel which releases the round at a slightly different angle from when you zeroed without the suppressor attached.

If you don't believe me, get a chronograph and fire a few before and after rounds through it and see for yourself.

As for noise reduction, It's simple. A .22lr is a great example:

Fire a .22lr with subsonic ammo, no suppressor = Mini boom.
Fire a .22lr with supersonic ammo, no suppressor = Mini boom + Mini crack.

Fire a .22lr with subsonic ammo, suppressor attached = Sound of bullet passing through the air.
Fire a .22lr with supersonic ammo, suppressor attached = Mini crack.

It’s exactly the same for a centerfire rifle.

If anyone is in midlands over the comming weeks I will show ye what I mean....

other than that Ill leave it at this because i cant be arsed anymore... some of us have work to do :P

Tackleberrywho

gunhappy_ie wrote: »

If anyone is in midlands over the comming weeks I will show ye what I mean....

other than that Ill leave it at this because i cant be arsed anymore... some of us have work to do :P

Do U have a Chrono? I'm interested in all things scientific

rrpc

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Taint necessarily so RR.
The silencer mightnt do that but ,the human ear does. We hear in a non linear way.,and the further away we are from a noise the less it sounds obviously.

Not as much as you think Grizzly. The effect of distance on sound attenuation (which follows the inverse square rule) is only 6dB by doubling of distance. In other words, a sound measured at 110dB at 100ft will drop to 104dB at 200ft and 98dB at 400ft.

It's also important to realise that the dB scale is logarithmic and not linear. In other words, the difference in sound pressure between 100 and 110dB is 10 times rather than 10%

Put it in simple terms.Yes you wont get rid of sonic crack that is a given,[more or less],as that is the seconday noise of a firearms workings .But what we want to get rid of is the BOOM which is the most and primary noise of the gunshot.This any silencer will do .

Again, this is not as simple as it appears. Sound is not just sound presuure but also sound frequency. Lower frequency sounds atttenuate much quicker than higher frequency ones. Sounds in the frequency range of 100 -1000Hz can attenuate as much as 50dB by doubling of distance.

So what does this mean for our sunday morning snoozing couple?
Without the silencer,they will hear a BOOM CRACK and be woken from their slumbers.Again depending on various local factors and terrain.

They might not hear the BOOM at all, but they've a much greater chance of hearing the crack because it is at a higher frequency. It gets a bit more complicated because the sound pressure wave of the discharge is sphercal whereas the sonic crack is a lane or tunnel the width of which is not more than the distance to the target or backstop. This can be easily demonstrated by shooting to different distance of backstop where the longer distance will create a longer and more discernible sonic crack.

From J Trubidy's book Silencers in the 1980s [Paladin Press]

Office[ start of annoying ] 70Db 45,380, 22lr silenced by a Soinac
Loud classical music 100Db 45,.380 unsilenced

I'd take issue with those figures. In any event, they should give the distance to the muzzle and I doubt very much if the sound pressure form a .45 is only ten times that of a .22

To say the only person getting any benefit from a silencer is behind the gun is a misnomer in the least.

Out of context you could, but in the context of a supersonic round measured anywhere between the barrel and the backstop, you would not be correct.

Kramer

gunhappy_ie wrote: »

you consider slowing down a .223 as counter productive...but that is exactly what your suppressor is doing has to do and is designed to do.... a suppressor is only a gas expansion chamber and it slows down a round.... if correct ammo is used it will slow it down to below super sonic speeds ie less than 1080 feet per second.

A supressor slows down a round?
A supressor is designed to slow down a round?

Priceless, absolutely priceless :D:D

bunny shooter

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Ah bunny, I thought we were friends now.........

Of course we are :rolleyes:

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

If I misquoted the bible I am sorry.:eek: Hard to be correct all the time........

No harm being wrong sometimes ......... especially when you stop making a bigger ass out of yourself by admiting it

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

..........you know I was right about the swift as no one ever proved me wrong in black and white :p:p:p:p:p:p

:rolleyes: just no point even going there :rolleyes:

Tackleberrywho

bunny shooter wrote: »

Of course we are :rolleyes:



No harm being wrong sometimes ......... especially when you stop making a bigger ass out of yourself by admiting it



:rolleyes: just no point even going there :rolleyes:

I have no problem saying i have faults bunny, I have many.
Memory is not what it used to be, too many late nights and waaaaaaaaaaaaay to much beer.

I have to say shooting with a mod is waaaaay more fun than without.

Myself Ezri Ezri Snr and dC were chatting today.
my old electronic muffs are broken so tractor style muffs made conversation difficult whit .308's booming.

Myself and my mates can go shooting with mods on and whisper to each other. Tis great

Grizzly 45

Kramer wrote: »

A supressor slows down a round?
A supressor is designed to slow down a round?

Priceless, absolutely priceless :D:D

Indeed!ASFIK a silencer is only designed to silence the exhaust gas,by capturing and cooling.Cant see myself how it slows down the bullet as it has left the barrel.

Tackleberrywho

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Indeed!ASFIK a silencer is only designed to silence the exhaust gas,by capturing and cooling.Cant see myself how it slows down the bullet as it has left the barrel.

As the OP

I am more confused now than i ever was.

Will someone offer a Chrono and put this to bed???;)

I'll supply Ammo, rifle and surpressor and shooter!!

rrpc

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Indeed!ASFIK a silencer is only designed to silence the exhaust gas,by capturing and cooling.Cant see myself how it slows down the bullet as it has left the barrel.

I wonder would it actually speed up the round seeing as you've added an effective five or six inches to the barrel length - albeit less snugly fitting around the bullet?

Tackleberrywho

rrpc wrote: »

I wonder would it actually speed up the round seeing as you've added an effective five or six inches to the barrel length - albeit less snugly fitting around the bullet?

RRPC Surely you of all people can get your hands on a chrono??