Sheikh Al-Sudais at Blackburn

irishconvert

Sheikh Al-Sudais, imam of the Grand mosque in Mecca, visited the UK last month. Here is a report on the Khutbah and speech he gave:

http://www.iccuk.org/page.php?section=news&page=Sheikh

“My advice to Muslims living in the West is to remain good models and good ambassadors of their religion, nation and values,” says Dr. Sheikh Abdul Rahman al-Sudais, the Head Imam and Khateeb of the Masjid-ul-Haram in Makkah Al-Mukarramah, while delivering his Friday Khutbah at the Tauheedul Islam Mosque in Blackburn, Lancashire, UK on 16th of July 2010. On the same day evening, Sheikh al-Sudais led the evening prayer and delivered a speech.

While addressing the large gathering at the Mosque, Dr. Al-Sudais recited so many verses of the Qur’an and quoting verses of the Qur’an, Imam of the Masjid al-Haram emphasized that there is no difference between peoples and there is complete equality in the eyes of Allah. Al-Sudais said Islam advocates mercy and tolerance as well as respect for human rights and human dignity.

“We want to tell the world: Don’t fear Islam and Muslims,” emphasized the Imam of the Masjid al-Haram and added, “Islam came to protect the interests of humanity, prevent evils and build bridges with all communities. It offers a great message of mercy and tolerance.”

Sheikh al-Sudais asked Muslims to learn from the life and teachings of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), who used to visit his Jewish neighbour. “When the Prophet died his armour was kept with a Jew as a security,” he said, urging Muslims to establish good relations with non-Muslims. “This is the best way to attract them to Islam.”

Dr. Al-Sudais urged Muslims to cooperate with each other and to maintain good relations with non-Muslims. “We want to tell the world: Don’t fear Islam and Muslims and don’t get worried about the presence of Mosques because they advocate peace and tolerance even with non-Muslims,” he said.

Sheikh Al-Sudais also told the Muslims living in the West to serve as ambassadors of their religion. “My advice to Muslims living in the West is to remain good models and good ambassadors of their religion, nation and values,” Sheikh Al-Sudais added.

The Imam of the Masjid-ul-Haram, Sheikh Al-Sudais said: “You should uphold the great Islamic values while dealing with Muslims as well as non-Muslims and should not engage in any corrupt or unjust practices.”

He urged Muslims to be advocates of virtues, peace, safety and respect of law and order as well as to behave as constructive members of society and to refrain from any act that undermines stability. “You should be a positive and constructive factor in the community you live in and should not involve yourselves in activities that would undermine its security and stability,” the Saudi Press Agency quoted Al-Sudais as saying.

Dr. Al-Sudais reiterated that Islam advocates co-existence and establishing contacts with other civilisations and said Islam does not tolerate isolation, but it urges Muslims to become influential persons in society.

Dr. Al-Sudais also said that Islam does not advocate terrorism. Reciting the verses of the Qur’an, Sheikh Al-Sudais said that you must read Qur’an and practice it so that you would be better citizens automatically.

hivizman

irishconvert wrote: »

Sheikh Al-Sudais, imam of the Grand mosque in Mecca, visited the UK last month.

Thanks for this - I think it was actually earlier this month (16 July). He was inaugurating a new mosque in Blackburn, which is apparently the largest mosque in north-west England. Here's another report, with a photo of the Sheikh and Lord (Adam) Patel, the mosque president.

irishconvert

hivizman wrote: »

Thanks for this - I think it was actually earlier this month (16 July). He was inaugurating a new mosque in Blackburn, which is apparently the largest mosque in north-west England. Here's another report, with a photo of the Sheikh and Lord (Adam) Patel, the mosque president.

You're right, it was this month. I was in a rush when I posted it.

hivizman

I was interested to look Sheikh Abdul Rahman Al-Sudais up on Wikipedia and to find out that he is only 50 years old. I had always assumed that the Chief Imam at the Masjid al-Haram in Mecca would have to be a very old person, so finding out that Al-Sudais is relatively young came as a bit of a surprise.

Here's a link to his recitation of the Qur'an.

Fuhrer

irishconvert wrote: »

Dr. Al-Sudais urged Muslims to cooperate with each other and to maintain good relations with non-Muslims. “We want to tell the world: Don’t fear Islam and Muslims and don’t get worried about the presence of Mosques because they advocate peace and tolerance even with non-Muslims,” he said.

Bit rich coming from the man who called jews the "Scum of the earth" and prayed for god to wipe them out.

deravarra

Fuhrer wrote: »

Bit rich coming from the man who called jews the "Scum of the earth" and prayed for god to wipe them out.

erm .... didnt you commit suicide after years of war and gassing these very same Jews?

irishconvert

Fuhrer wrote: »

Bit rich coming from the man who called jews the "Scum of the earth" and prayed for god to wipe them out.

Back this up with a source please

Zombrex

irishconvert wrote: »

Back this up with a source please

He called on God to "terminate" the Jews in an address in 2003 in Mecca. I've read about this before because he had hassle getting into America and Canada following this.

I've never seen the actual transcript of what he said, so as with all these things it is hard to make any judgement without context. In America, particularly the more right wing news sources such as WND use "Jews" and "Israel" often interchangeable so it is not inconceivable that he was calling on God to terminate Israeli aggression and calling on Muslims not to engage with Israel and this was reported as "Jews".

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=36482

wes

Wicknight wrote: »

He called on God to "terminate" the Jews in an address in 2003 in Mecca. I've read about this before because he had hassle getting into America and Canada following this.

I've never seen the actual transcript of what he said, so as with all these things it is hard to make any judgement without context. In America, particularly the more right wing news sources such as WND use "Jews" and "Israel" often interchangeable so it is not inconceivable that he was calling on God to terminate Israeli aggression and calling on Muslims not to engage with Israel and this was reported as "Jews".

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=36482

The World "Nut" Daily is a pretty useless source, just take a look at some of the other nonsense they have on there site:

Best-seller: Even Hawaii birth won't make Obama legitimate

I wouldn't trust a things those nutters say.

Zombrex

wes wrote: »

The World "Nut" Daily is a pretty useless source, just take a look at some of the other nonsense they have on there site:

Best-seller: Even Hawaii birth won't make Obama legitimate

I wouldn't trust a things those nutters say.

Agreed.

He did get stopped coming into America for some reason, though like I said who knows what he actually said by the time it gets filtered through the right wing American news channels.

I would suggest anyone go try and find his actual prayer in Mecca if they have doubts about him

wes

Wicknight wrote: »

Agreed.

He did get stopped coming into America for some reason, though like I said who knows what he actually said by the time it gets filtered through the right wing American news channels.

I would suggest anyone go try and find his actual prayer in Mecca if they have doubts about him

Yes, but the US has stopped people all kinds of people:

Cat Stevens 'In the Dark' Over No-Fly List

There no fly list is pretty mysterious, and all sorts of people are on it for no real identifiable reason.

donaghs

He's from Saudi, which isn't exactly a recommendation. He was also refused entry to Canada.

The UK Guardian, even seems wary of him: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2009/aug/04/sheikh-sudais-saudi-islam
"It is either that people have forgotten what he has said or that they are willing to overlook it and concentrate on his more palatable condemnations of suicide bombings and extremism. Whatever the reason, his feting by Muslims and non-Muslims alike is no cause for celebration, just confusion."

oceanclub

The UK's Panorama is hopefully a more believable source:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/panorama/4171950.stm

John Ware: Sheikh Sudais is a leading Imam from the great mosque in Mecca, Islam's holiest city.

He had one voice for his Western audience - another for his followers in Saudi. Sheikh Abdur-Rahman Al-Sudais: The worst ... of the enemies of Islam are those... whom he... made monkeys and pigs, the aggressive Jews and oppressive Zionists and those that follow them: the callers of the trinity and the cross worshippers... those influenced by the rottenness of their ideas, and the poison of their cultures the followers of secularism... How can we talk sweetly when the Hindus and the idol worshippers indulge in their overwhelming hatred against our brothers... in Muslim Kashmir...

Also, the Guardian newspaper, hardly a bastion of Islamaphobia (the author is herself a Muslim):

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2009/aug/04/sheikh-sudais-saudi-islam

Mosque.

Rewind some years and he was describing Jews as "monkeys and pigs and worshippers of false gods", Christians as "cross-worshippers" and Hindus as "idol worshippers". His views were highlighted in a BBC Panorama programme on the Muslim Council of Britain (MCB). Following the broadcast, the MCB sent letters of complaint to the corporation about the accuracy and editing of the show, queries that were dealt with at length by Panorama editor Mike Robinson.

P.

Zombrex

wes wrote: »

Yes, but the US has stopped people all kinds of people:

Cat Stevens 'In the Dark' Over No-Fly List

There no fly list is pretty mysterious, and all sorts of people are on it for no real identifiable reason.

I just meant I don't think the US would stop him for simply being on WND.

Like I said I would encourage anyone to go try and I find his actual speech. I can't find it, but if anyone can they should link to it and we can all make up our own minds

irishconvert

I would like to know exactly what he said, not some snippet from BBC's panarama. I don't think we can make a judgement on him based on some third person account and, by the looks of it, a highly edited version of his speech on panarama.

wes

To be fair Panorama is a pretty decent source, and I would certainly find them trust worthy.

oceanclub

irishconvert wrote: »

I would like to know exactly what he said.

http://www.alharamainsermons.org/eng/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=71

The full text of the sermon from 2002 is there. This appears to be the original legitimate site where his sermons are hosted:

Domain ID:D108896705-LROR
Domain Name:ALHARAMAINSERMONS.ORG
Created On:25-Nov-2005 00:23:47 UTC
Last Updated On:03-Dec-2009 21:42:28 UTC
Expiration Date:25-Nov-2011 00:23:47 UTC
Sponsoring Registrar:GoDaddy.com, Inc. (R91-LROR)
Status:CLIENT DELETE PROHIBITED
Status:CLIENT RENEW PROHIBITED
Status:CLIENT TRANSFER PROHIBITED
Status:CLIENT UPDATE PROHIBITED
Registrant ID:CR31613722
Registrant Name:majed alhumayane
Registrant Organization:pc-techno
Registrant Street1:madina
Registrant Street2:
Registrant Street3:
Registrant City:madina
Registrant State/Province:Massachusetts
Registrant Postal Code:madina
Registrant Country:SA
Registrant Phone:+966.48487703
Registrant Phone Ext.:
Registrant FAX:
Registrant FAX Ext.:
Registrant Email:info@pc-techno.com
Admin ID:CR31613724
Admin Name:majed alhumayane

The idea of a Saudi Arabian sheik referring to Jews as pigs is hardly so unbelievable that it merits exceptional proof, incidentally - I mean, even Saudi schoolbooks used in the UK refer to them as such.

P.

irishconvert

oceanclub wrote: »

http://www.alharamainsermons.org/eng/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=71

The full text of the sermon from 2002 is there. This appears to be the original legitimate site where his sermons are hosted:



The idea of a Saudi Arabian sheik referring to Jews as pigs is hardly so unbelievable that it merits exceptional proof, incidentally - I mean, even Saudi schoolbooks used in the UK refer to them as such.

P.

Ok, even though we don't know if it is an authentic translation you linked to, it still doesn't back up what Panaroma said.

Panaroma wrote:

Rewind some years and he was describing Jews as "monkeys and pigs and worshippers of false gods", Christians as "cross-worshippers" and Hindus as "idol worshippers". His views were highlighted in a BBC Panorama programme on the Muslim Council of Britain (MCB

Translation wrote:

Allaah cursed them and cast His wrath upon them. He turned some of them to monkeys and pigs and worshippers of creatures

irishconvert

wes wrote: »

To be fair Panorama is a pretty decent source, and I would certainly find them trust worthy.

As a rule of thumb I don't trust anything the BBC say.

wes

irishconvert wrote: »

As a rule of thumb I don't trust anything the BBC say.

Fair enough, personally I find them reliable. Certainly better than a lot of other outlets.

oceanclub

irishconvert wrote: »

Ok, even though we don't know if it is an authentic translation you linked to, it still doesn't back up what Panaroma said.

How about:

Read the history to know that yesterday’s Jews are evil predecessors and today’s Jews are worse successors.

or

History of Jews is full of deception, trickery, rebellion, oppression, evil and corruption. They always seek to cause mischief on the earth and Allaah loves not the mischief-makers.

If the fact that the BBC or the Guardian - neither known for being Islamophobic or right-wing - regards these as accurate
, the MCB's Sacranie didn't deny these words, or the fact that that an advisor to the Saudi Crown Prince themselves confirmed these statements:

^ Al-Jubeir, Adel. Interview with Tim Russert. Adel Al-Jubeir, Foreign Policy Advisor to Crown Prince Abdullah on NBC's ‘Meet the Press’. Meet the Press. NBC Washington, DC. May 18, 2003. Retrieved on 2007-03-30. MR. RUSSERT: But it went on and on, and you mention imams in Saudi Arabia. This is what a top Saudi Arabian religious leader said, using inflammatory anti-Semitic rhetoric -- "Pray to Allah to terminate Jews. Urge all Muslims to shun peace with Israel." Shaikh Abdelrahman al-Sudais, one of the top imams in Saudi Arabia, called on Muslims to say farewell to peace initiatives with these people, Jews. He prayed to the Muslim God to terminate the Jews, whom he called the scum of humanity, rats of the world, prophet killers, pigs and monkeys. MR. AL-JUBEIR: That's also incorrect. And he was reprimanded for this. MR. RUSSERT: He was reprimanded? MR. AL-JUBEIR: Oh, yes. MR. RUSSERT: Is he still preaching? MR. AL-JUBEIR: Yes, he is. But he's not -- I think if he had a choice he would retract these words -- he would not have said these words. It's clearly not right. You cannot -- you cannot defile, you cannot malign other people, certainly not when it comes to their faith.

.... then I'm honestly not sure what form of proof you would require barring an actual video of him saying these things.
P.

Zombrex

irishconvert wrote: »

I don't think we can make a judgement on him based on some third person account and, by the looks of it, a highly edited version of his speech on panarama.

I assume that applies to the Islamic Cultural Centre UK website as well?

irishconvert

Wicknight wrote: »

I assume that applies to the Islamic Cultural Centre UK website as well?

I have not made any judgement on him, I simply quoted the article from the ICC website.

oceanclub

irishconvert wrote: »

I have not made any judgement on him, I simply quoted the article from the ICC website.

Do you find the Saudi Crown Prince's own advisor a credible source?

P.

irishconvert

oceanclub wrote: »

Do you find the Saudi Crown Prince's own advisor a credible source?

P.

A reliable source for what?

Sheikh Al-Sudais visited the UK earlier this month. This is a notable event for Muslims so I posted the link here.

Can I ask what is you motive in posting here as you are not adding any value to the thread?

oceanclub

irishconvert wrote: »

Can I ask what is you motive in posting here as you are not adding any value to the thread?

My "motive" (gosh, you make it sound so sordid) is wondering why a man who compares Christians and Jews to pigs - and was reprimanded by his own, hardly tolerant, government for those remarks - is worthy of any attention by a moderator on this group. He's on a par with the Westboro Baptist Church.

Obviously you think he is.

I'm quite happy to condemn Islamophobia and other bigotry in all its forms.

P.

irishconvert

oceanclub wrote: »

My "motive" (gosh, you make it sound so sordid) is wondering why a man who compares Christians and Jews to pigs

I don't have a lot of time for Saudi Arabia, or it's leaders, but this allegation is unproven. The translation which was linked to earlier does not show him comparing Christians and Jews to pigs. He does say Allah turned some Jews into pigs and monkeys.

oceanclub wrote: »

- and was reprimanded by his own, hardly tolerant, government for those remarks

Reprimanded for what? In the quote you provided "Tim Russert" denies he said those things. What he has been reprimanded for is not made clear.

^ Al-Jubeir, Adel. Interview with Tim Russert. Adel Al-Jubeir, Foreign Policy Advisor to Crown Prince Abdullah on NBC's ‘Meet the Press’. Meet the Press. NBC Washington, DC. May 18, 2003. Retrieved on 2007-03-30. MR. RUSSERT: But it went on and on, and you mention imams in Saudi Arabia. This is what a top Saudi Arabian religious leader said, using inflammatory anti-Semitic rhetoric -- "Pray to Allah to terminate Jews. Urge all Muslims to shun peace with Israel." Shaikh Abdelrahman al-Sudais, one of the top imams in Saudi Arabia, called on Muslims to say farewell to peace initiatives with these people, Jews. He prayed to the Muslim God to terminate the Jews, whom he called the scum of humanity, rats of the world, prophet killers, pigs and monkeys. MR. AL-JUBEIR: That's also incorrect. And he was reprimanded for this. MR. RUSSERT: He was reprimanded? MR. AL-JUBEIR: Oh, yes. MR. RUSSERT: Is he still preaching? MR. AL-JUBEIR: Yes, he is. But he's not -- I think if he had a choice he would retract these words -- he would not have said these words. It's clearly not right. You cannot -- you cannot defile, you cannot malign other people, certainly not when it comes to their faith.

oceanclub wrote: »

- is worthy of any attention by a moderator on this group. He's on a par with the Westboro Baptist Church.

Obviously you think he is.

So you think the Imam of the Grand mosque in Mecca visiting the UK is not worth reporting on?

oceanclub wrote: »

I'm quite happy to condemn Islamophobia and other bigotry in all its forms.

P.

Good.

What I am wondering is why is an athiest like yourself (correct me if I am wrong) posting in a forum set up for Muslims to discuss their religion?

oceanclub

irishconvert wrote: »

What I am wondering is why is an athiest like yourself (correct me if I am wrong) posting in a forum set up for Muslims to discuss their religion?

Are atheists not allowed to post here? I've re-read the charter and do not see if criticising this person breaks any rules. I'm not attacking any posters, not belittling your religion, and believe I have disagreed with you in a well-mannered fashion.

If as a moderator you feel I am breaking rules, please let me know.

P.

Zombrex

irishconvert wrote: »

I have not made any judgement on him, I simply quoted the article from the ICC website.

I know. I'm simply asking do you think we should not trust the ICC website?

You seem quite dismissive of a range of media sources, but then also regularly post links and references to other media sources, normally those run by Muslim groups.

I'm trying to see if this is a general feeling of mistrust you have towards media in general, or just media no run by Muslims or media when they are critical of Muslims?

A bit of clarification I think is in order, given how regularly you dismiss certain media sources such as the BBC.

Zombrex

irishconvert wrote: »

What I am wondering is why is an athiest like yourself (correct me if I am wrong) posting in a forum set up for Muslims to discuss their religion?

Which doesn't fall into the remit of this forum by your own definition of it (to discuss Islam and Islamic issues). Read the Charter, this forum is for discussion of Islamic issues, and one of the rules is not to attack individual posters.

If you want to discuss the motivations of atheists in general there is a forum for that, if you want to discuss the motivations of an individual poster you can PM him.

irishconvert

oceanclub wrote: »

Are atheists not allowed to post here? I've re-read the charter and do not see if criticising this person breaks any rules. I'm not attacking any posters, not belittling your religion, and believe I have disagreed with you in a well-mannered fashion.

If as a moderator you feel I am breaking rules, please let me know.

P.

PM Sent.

Edit: Of course athiests are allowed to post here as long as they follow the charter. You must have honest questions about Islam and not be here to attack Islam or have Muslims defend their faith.

irishconvert

Wicknight wrote: »

I know. I'm simply asking do you think we should not trust the ICC website?

You seem quite dismissive of a range of media sources, but then also regularly post links and references to other media sources, normally those run by Muslim groups.

I'm trying to see if this is a general feeling of mistrust you have towards media in general, or just media no run by Muslims or media when they are critical of Muslims?

A bit of clarification I think is in order, given how regularly you dismiss certain media sources such as the BBC.

I think every media outlet has an agends so it is better to read from both sides and and try yourself to deduce what the real story is.

oceanclub

irishconvert wrote: »

PM Sent.

Are these PMs with your moderator hat on or your poster hat on? Wouldn't it be better if another moderator deals with problems related to your own posts (it seems there is a conflict of interest there).

P.

irishconvert

Oceanclub and Wicknight banned for discussion of Moderation on thread

hivizman

I think that this thread has run its course - the original point of drawing attention to the visit of Sheikh Abdul Rahman Al-Sudais to the UK has been made, and discussions of what he may or may not have said in the past don't really get us far.

For the record, I am inclined to share the view that the Sheikh did indeed say some unfortunate things, which he now regrets, but this is sadly a common human failing.

However, despite what the Sheikh is supposed to have said, it is interesting that the British government allowed him into the UK not just recently but also a year ago. Perhaps the British government thought that banning the chief imam of the Masjid al-Haram in Mecca would be like banning the Pope, which some people in the UK have demanded. Perhaps letting Sheikh al-Sudais in was prompted by the hostile reaction to the ban on popular speakers Zakir Naik and Bilal Phillips last month, again for comments that had been made years ago, and which were widely believed to have been taken out of context and even distorted.

irishconvert

Oceanclub and Wicknight ban lifted.