Round 12: Hungarian Grand Prix

recyclebin

I don't think Ross Brawn will design the car to favour either driver for next year. They will design the car around the new rules and will hope to get the jump on Red Bull, Ferrari and Mclaren who will be spending more of their efforts on this year.

Schumacher doesn't seem to be improving as the season has gone on so I would think Rosberg is likely to beat him again next year. The testing ban hasn't helped Schumacher and it's not likely to change. Therefore any useful feeback that Schumacher can give will be limited.

As for one chassis manufacturer. I think that is a terible idea. They just need to enforce the current regulations properly and stop changing the rules every year. With every new rule there seems to be a loophole that one team exploits and then the other teams just copy them.

recyclebin

frostie500 wrote: »

I was actually writing about this earlier for my blog but there's quite a difference from doping and the flexible wings/double deck diffusers/F-Duct/any other tech development. As things stand Red Bull and Ferrari found a way to ensure that their wing doesnt flex when a certain force is exerted on it but does at a greater force. It may be against the 'spirit' of the regs but its not against the wording of the regs.

If the wing flexes then it definitely breaks the rules. Just because it passed the test doesn't make it legal. The test doesn't reflect the real forces in actual racing and thats why they are now going to have to increase the loads when testinf the flexibility of the wings.

vectra

recyclebin wrote: »

As for one chassis manufacturer. I think that is a terible idea. They just need to enforce the current regulations properly and stop changing the rules every year. With every new rule there seems to be a loophole that one team exploits and then the other teams just copy them.

It is the only way to stop it..
isnt that exactly why McLaren got the contract for the "One supplier" of the ECU on all cars??

recyclebin

Yeah the one ECU was brought in to stop teams cheating with traction control and hidden software. The traction control problem was a lot harder to police so they went for one ECU for everyone.

The flexing wings should have been a lot easier to detect if they had used realistic loading for their tests.

Red Bull and Ferrari exploited this and I have no problem with that. Their engineers out smarted the FIA but the FIA should have reacted faster and increased the loading for the tests.

amacachi

Ficus wrote: »

Back to the schumacher incident, i think the move was highly dangerous and deserved to be punished, but what i think is unfair is that this incident is nearly identical to the Fuji race of 2008 where massa passed webber on the main straight in almost the same circumstances, yet webber never got a penalty.

:

Also in the last couple of years Webber and Vettel have been two of the biggest offenders when it comes to veering massively off the line, and not just running people towards the wall.

robinph

The Webber v Massa move was similar, but Webber didn't move any further right once Massa was beside him.

amacachi

robinph wrote: »

The Webber v Massa move was similar, but Webber didn't move any further right once Massa was beside him.

You serious? He makes one nudge before the wall runs out and another bigger one just past the wall.

IM0

It would be better to know who are the Schumacher fans and who are not, thats 3/4 of the reason for the skewedviews on show here :pac:

As I said before when younger I was a Schumacher fan for a while, either way Im not using Bias in these posts just the way an unbiased viewer/fan would see it.

Woden

From Humphrey's twitter. Great picture

http://twitpic.com/2aq2l4/full

cooker3

Woden wrote: »

From Humphrey's twitter. Great picture

http://twitpic.com/2aq2l4/full

Yeah, really shows how dangerous it was.
I'd love his "apology" He is not apologising because he drove dangerously, he is saying sorry if Barrichello thinks he drove dangerously. He has a good future in politics.

amacca

Woden wrote: »

From Humphrey's twitter. Great picture

http://twitpic.com/2aq2l4/full

wow! centimeters if not millimeters between barrichellos wheels and the pit wall...... didn't realise it was that close, unless the camera angle is making it look a little closer than it was.

barrichello looking straight forward over the nose praying he can get through and schumacher looking to the right wondering if he can squeeze him anymore

RayM

Eddie Irvine has called Schumacher "an idiot" and described the incident as one of the worst manoeuvres he's ever seen.

Edmund Irvine, ladies and gentlemen...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAnpQvu794o

Mitch Connor

LIGHTNING wrote: »

If the wing passes the test that the rest of the teams go through then its legal. End of discussion simple as that, if the tests are stringent enough then its the FIA`s problem not Red Bulls.

it really isn't that simple though - something can pass a test without being legal - it just hasn't been found to be illegal. There is a difference. same with athletes and performance enhancing drugs. We have had plenty of stories or runners etc being o stuff that couldn't be detected by the testing at the time, such as EPO for a time. It was still illegal to be using it to boost your performance - regardless of whether the tests were able to detect it or not.

If the wings are supposed to be a minimal distance from the ground, but have been designed to flex below that to improve performance while avoiding showing that in the current tests, they are still illegal, whether they can be proven to be so by the tests are not.

ando

I don’t know what all the fuss is about with Schumacher and his move, yes it was a dangerous move, but it’s Formula One for god’s sake, stop with the moaning!!! Schumacher should not have apologized IMO and it’s a dark day in F1 for such a driver to have to apologize for defending his position, albeit strongly but that’s just how the guy is.. Jesus remember Hakkinen overtaking Schumacher in Spa few years ago, and Zonta right in the middle of them... If we're all safety conscious why wasn’t Hakkinen beaten around the head by the FIA??

If you are trying to overtake a car infront, and you know he can be pushed to a certain degree and then give way, then you are going to continue to push him knowing he will give up. Ie a weak driver. And you will do it over and over every time you find yourself behind that driver. Schumacher's a hard driver and I find nothing wrong with what he did. I'm sure Barrichello won’t be as confident if he finds himself in similar scenario in the future, and that hesitation could be the difference between 1st and 2nd in another race

And as for Irvine, him calling someone else an idiot had me laughing out loud!!!

Mitch Connor

LIGHTNING wrote: »

In regard to your above post about athleteics, one is cheating and getting away with it the other is having a wing/device that is within accpeted tolerences. The wing has repeatedly passed inspection and scruinity. Red bull dont have to prove anything its up the FIA to prove that the wing is illegal.

do the regs not state (as well as the load test stuff) that the wing has to maintain a minimum distance from the ground? If the wing is designed to be flexible and drop lower under specific conditions that the load test can not reproduce, then it has been designed to cheat the regs while passing the load test. I see it as no different from taking undetectable performance enhancing drugs.

If the wings do not have to maintain a minimum distance and it is ONLY the load test it has to pass, then fine RB are in the clear

mickdw

Does anyone have the regs in relation to this. If the regs state that wing cannot run below 80mm in any circumstance then the fia are free to alter their tests etc but if they refer to 80mm as being the minimum design height in a stationary position & then detail the flex tests the wing must also pass to ensure no flexible sections, well there is little that can be done to redbull without altering the regs for everyone & why do that?

recyclebin

Straight from ITV and Pitpass website:

Article 3.17.8 says: “In order to ensure that the requirements of Article 3.15 are respected, the FIA reserves the right to introduce further load/deflection tests on any part of the bodywork which appears to be (or is suspected of) moving whilst the car is in motion.”

The wing deflection issue is covered by Article 3.15, which stipulates that bodywork “must be rigidly secured to the entirely sprung part of the car” and “must remain immobile in relation to the sprung part of the car”.

The rule adds: “Any device or construction that is designed to bridge the gap between the sprung part of the car and the ground is prohibited under all circumstances.

“No part having an aerodynamic influence and no part of the bodywork, with the exception of the skid block in 3.13 above, may under any circumstances be located below the reference plane.”

At present, Article 3.15 is enforced through load tests designed to ensure that cars' aerodynamic parts do not flex by more than a stated maximum, but such static tests do not fully replicate the higher forces cars generate on the circuit, particularly in fast corners.

I rest my case

frostie500

Its easy to forget but Red Bull(and every team) develops their car in conjunction with the FIA. When a team are developing a new part they discuss it in great detail with the technical delegate, Charlie Whiting. They show detailed designs of the part and hold detailed discussions.

Upto this point Charlie Whiting and the FIA are satisfied that Red Bull and Ferrari's front wings meet the requirements set forth by the regulations

cooker3

ando wrote: »

I don’t know what all the fuss is about with Schumacher and his move, yes it was a dangerous move, but it’s Formula One for god’s sake, stop with the moaning!!! Schumacher should not have apologized IMO and it’s a dark day in F1 for such a driver to have to apologize for defending his position, albeit strongly but that’s just how the guy is.. Jesus remember Hakkinen overtaking Schumacher in Spa few years ago, and Zonta right in the middle of them... If we're all safety conscious why wasn’t Hakkinen beaten around the head by the FIA??

If you are trying to overtake a car infront, and you know he can be pushed to a certain degree and then give way, then you are going to continue to push him knowing he will give up. Ie a weak driver. And you will do it over and over every time you find yourself behind that driver. Schumacher's a hard driver and I find nothing wrong with what he did. I'm sure Barrichello won’t be as confident if he finds himself in similar scenario in the future, and that hesitation could be the difference between 1st and 2nd in another race

And as for Irvine, him calling someone else an idiot had me laughing out loud!!!

You don't see the difference between the Hakkinens overtake on track and Schumacher pushing Barrichello off track, note where the white lines are in that pic, and nearly into a concrete wall beside the pit road. You really don't see the difference and don't think that's in anyway dangerous?

BoardsRanger

cooker3 wrote: »

You don't see the difference between the Hakkinens overtake on track and Schumacher pushing Barrichello off track, note where the white lines are in that pic, and nearly into a concrete wall beside the pit road. You really don't see the difference and don't think that's in anyway dangerous?

Even Michael admits that the move was dangerous. But motorsport is dangerous. Its why i watch

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pc2k_WGm3U

mickdw

recyclebin wrote: »

Straight from ITV and Pitpass website:

Article 3.17.8 says: “In order to ensure that the requirements of Article 3.15 are respected, the FIA reserves the right to introduce further load/deflection tests on any part of the bodywork which appears to be (or is suspected of) moving whilst the car is in motion.”

The wing deflection issue is covered by Article 3.15, which stipulates that bodywork “must be rigidly secured to the entirely sprung part of the car” and “must remain immobile in relation to the sprung part of the car”.

The rule adds: “Any device or construction that is designed to bridge the gap between the sprung part of the car and the ground is prohibited under all circumstances.

“No part having an aerodynamic influence and no part of the bodywork, with the exception of the skid block in 3.13 above, may under any circumstances be located below the reference plane.”

At present, Article 3.15 is enforced through load tests designed to ensure that cars' aerodynamic parts do not flex by more than a stated maximum, but such static tests do not fully replicate the higher forces cars generate on the circuit, particularly in fast corners.

I rest my case

It is pretty clear then that the FIA can introduce whatever test they wish is future. It is also pretty clear that the redbull (& ferrari) is technically illegal & will be proved as such when a new test is devised.

Vegeta

Will points be deducted if the FIA rule the wing was illegal?

frostie500

Vegeta wrote: »

Will points be deducted if the FIA rule the wing was illegal?

No points cant be taken off a team after their car passed scrutineering by race stewards. Teams can be banned though if a car fails scrutineering-such as what happen BAR in 04? when their car was found to have an illegal oil tank

mickdw

Its not the teams fault as they passed the required tests however it is pretty clear from the regs quoted above that the front wings are not as rigid as they should be so I guess the FIA will introduce a new test which the teams will have to design to from that date on.

EvilMonkey

mickdw wrote: »

Its not the teams fault as they passed the required tests however it is pretty clear from the regs quoted above that the front wings are not as rigid as they should be so I guess the FIA will introduce a new test which the teams will have to design to from that date on.

There is speculation that Red Bull are doing something with the front nose cone and the entire front wing and nose is dropping. Its unlikely that the deflection test would catch this.

It will be interesting to see if they run new wings, but I think they are likely to pass this new test anyway.

Funny how it was McLaren and Merc that had to alter their diffuser starter holes at the start of the season, are now doing the complaining.

vincenzolorenzo

amacca wrote: »

Delighted for Webber, he doesn't seem to be as much of a spoiled child as Alonso, Vettel or even whiney Hamilton.

Don't think you could call Vettel a spoiled child in fairness. Whenever things don't go right for him he takes it on the chin fair and square. A spoiled child yesterday would have whinged on about the team not telling him about the safety car. Vettel put his hands up and said he was asleep. Very admirable i thought and a welcome change from lame excuses some of the others would have given

vincenzolorenzo

amacachi wrote: »

BBC getting in an awful tizz about Hulkenberg there, nowhere near as good as when Raikkonen did it on ITV though. :pac:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6431766470249091563#

What did Hulkenberg say? I missed that one

amacachi

vincenzolorenzo wrote: »

What did Hulkenberg say? I missed that one

He said he was **** earlier in the season or that someone else did I think. He said something was s h i t anyway.

mickdw

He said to Eddie Jordan.... You said I was sh1t earlier this season.

frostie500

vincenzolorenzo wrote: »

Don't think you could call Vettel a spoiled child in fairness. Whenever things don't go right for him he takes it on the chin fair and square. A spoiled child yesterday would have whinged on about the team not telling him about the safety car. Vettel put his hands up and said he was asleep. Very admirable i thought and a welcome change from lame excuses some of the others would have given

have to agree Vettel hasnt acted spoilt, or poorly, at any point this season. In Turkey Red Bull made a decision to back him after the crash and at Silverstone he did what any driver in the world would do-he took a part that would give him an advantage.

The things that paint him in a negative light are the teams doing not his, Alonso on the other hand is a somewhat different story!

mickdw

Maybe its just me but the face on hiim when he doesnt win says alot. Add this to his reaction to the crash with webber, & his comment after one of the races about knowing who your friends are or something like that & he is not shown in a good light.
I detest him at this stage......and thats not even thinking about the FINGER.

vincenzolorenzo

mickdw wrote: »

Maybe its just me but the face on hiim when he doesnt win says alot. Add this to his reaction to the crash with webber, & his comment after one of the races about knowing who your friends are or something like that & he is not shown in a good light.
I detest him at this stage......and thats not even thinking about the FINGER.

Other people would describe that as 'wearing his heart on his sleeve'. Personally I much prefer drivers to be honest and say what they actually mean. Instead of making that comment about knowing who your friends are he could just as easily have trotted out the usual old cliches - 'the team did a great job today, for sure blah blah blah'. I think its great that he doesn't just put on corporate face and do the PC thing for the team

EvilMonkey

mickdw wrote: »

Maybe its just me but the face on hiim when he doesnt win says alot. Add this to his reaction to the crash with webber, & his comment after one of the races about knowing who your friends are or something like that & he is not shown in a good light.
I detest him at this stage......and thats not even thinking about the FINGER.

He should be pissed off when he doesn't win, he is in the best car on the grid. In that car if he is happy with second then he shouldn't be in F1.
His immediate reaction wasn't great but so what im sure the adrenalin was flowing. (crashing into his team mate was bad but the reaction meh )
As for the comment we don't know what he was talking about because your one never followed it up. It was a meaningless throw away comment.

amacca

vincenzolorenzo wrote: »

Don't think you could call Vettel a spoiled child in fairness. Whenever things don't go right for him he takes it on the chin fair and square. A spoiled child yesterday would have whinged on about the team not telling him about the safety car. Vettel put his hands up and said he was asleep. Very admirable i thought and a welcome change from lame excuses some of the others would have given

fair point I suppose, actions do speak louder than words and it did show a bit of spine to say he was asleep...was sort of finding it hard to come up with any defence for including him in the spoiled child section of the formula 1 grid until the below was posted

mickdw wrote: »

Maybe its just me but the face on hiim when he doesnt win says alot. Add this to his reaction to the crash with webber, & his comment after one of the races about knowing who your friends are or something like that & he is not shown in a good light.
I detest him at this stage......and thats not even thinking about the FINGER.

I couldn't put my finger on it but its the smiling happy go lucky everthings fantastic 110% before the race contrasted with his facial expression when something doesn't go quite right ...he just has such a sulky childish looking head on him when the race doesn't go perfectly for him...I find it insincere, childish and I don't think hes acting, I think it reflects his personality ....I think I'd have less of dislike of him if he was consistently sulky or happy and not shuttling over and back between the two more rapidly than his car gets from 0-60...... not much of a reason so i suppose ill have to admit I'm fickle. . in any event as Ive said before it makes the thing entertaining so I'm all for any sportsmen in any discipline being able to speak their not being shackled and trotting out the same old trite pc same old same old....but you can see why they are coached as being yourself can backfire badly if the watching public don't like your style very much.

goat2

two of us thinking of going to hungarian gp, never there before, but attended grand prix other countries, am wondering if there is an irish group tour going, also is it an easy one to get tickets at this stage, also are services such as, trains and acommodation pricey and are they easy access, what is food like,