Can't pass technical exam

LegacyUser

I am unemployed at the moment and my qualification is in IT but I have a real problem with one aspect of interviews; I am unable to pass technical tests. Those of you working in computers will know what I am talking about. It's where you sit a short exam before or during the interview itself in which you are asked a series of questions to do with logic and reasoning. I have been for three so far and have screwed up every time.
The last one was particularly upsetting because it was a job I really wanted to get but I realised when I saw the test I was completley out of my depth as I couldn't get even one of them right. I googled a good few before the interview but it's impossible to find the ones they ask in the exam. Anyway it's something you are either good at or not. I plainly am not.
It was probably just as well I didn't get the job as I would not have been up to it.
I have come to the conclusion I am simply not a good programmer and this is depresses me greatly as I worked incredibly hard in college over five years to get my degree.
I like computers but I have always struggled with maths even though in college I did well in some mathsy-type subjects like Artifical Intelligence, Animation, Digital Image Processing etc.

I am really worried now as I am wondering if I am suited to my career. It's a bit late for me to change now as I went back as a mature student and am well into my thirties now.
I am fine in the interview itself, I can talk away, I always do my background research but I always fail the technical exam.
I should also mention that I suffer from depression, anxiety and insomnia (I am on medication for all three). I had some suicidal thoughts before but the meds have helped a little. I still have sleep problems though. My nerves get to me in stressful situations though.
I do know some programming though as I had to write a program for one interview but I was given a couple of days to do it and then I had to present it at the interview and explain it etc.
I didn't get the job (he said I came second;I don't know if he was just trying to cheer me up) but he complemented me on the way I did it and said I had done more than he asked.
He sent me an email after saying he thought I would have a great career in IT. I assumed he was just being patronising.
I have no problem doing a program if I am given time to work things out, in fact I relish it;I enjoyed doing the program for that guy and enjoyed presenting it to him. But in an interview situation I am put on the spot so I am found out.
I know this post will provoke a barrage of smug responses from IT people who are brilliant at these sort of exams and love doing them and love even more putting down those who are not (IT is full of people like that). However this will not be very helpful to me.
It's embarrassing enough for me to post this, even though it is anonymous. My confidence is at rock-bottom now, I suppose I could practice and become a better programmer but I don't know, I am feeling lost really.

fasty

Don't be so hard on yourself! Programming isn't easy. Learn from your mistakes and keep at it! It'll click eventually!

Sleepy

Often times you're not meant to be able to finish the technical exam in the time given to you - it's a test of your approach to the problem rather than your ability to solve it on the spot.

Don't assume that the other interviewer was being patronising. Who has the time to be wasting on things like that. If he had no interest in, or life for, you he'd have simply not bothered calling. To me, that sounds as if he told you straight: there were two of you in it and the other guy had something which gave him the edge. He may have fared worse on the technical test but had something to point to like some Open Source development / past experience etc.

One thing that's worked for me before was that when faced with a technical test I wasn't able to complete in the half hour given to me to do it, I finished it out on the train back from the interview and mailed it to the interviewer explaining that I'd been curious to see the test out to the end and had given it another half hour... got the contract, got an extension to the contract and was offered a further extension or permanent role which I declined.

Don't be so tough on yourself and try not to assume that people always think the worst of you.

The Corinthian

geroid23 wrote: »

The last one was particularly upsetting because it was a job I really wanted to get but I realised when I saw the test I was completley out of my depth as I couldn't get even one of them right.

Is this your first job since retraining in IT? It is quite possible that you are applying for jobs that you are not yet qualified or experienced enough to do. Had you considered more junior positions?

I have come to the conclusion I am simply not a good programmer and this is depresses me greatly as I worked incredibly hard in college over five years to get my degree.

College does not make you a programmer, indeed most graduates are pretty useless for the first three months and require a fair bit of mentoring. What college gives you is a broad foundation in the theory behind IT which can be important, particularly later on, but in reality little of it is terribly practical in a company where they will want you to deliver something pretty specific, quickly, efficiently and competently.

What you realistically need to do is practice at home. Write hobby projects, offer to do freelance work (even for free in some cases). Good programmers are good programmers typically because they enjoy programming. They develop things at home and when they run into problems they Google a solution - that way they learn things that they would never have learned in college (which is unsurprising as most of the programming you get in college is hardly cutting edge).

I should also mention that I suffer from depression, anxiety and insomnia (I am on medication for all three). I had some suicidal thoughts before but the meds have helped a little. I still have sleep problems though. My nerves get to me in stressful situations though.

This is a separate issue. If you drag this into the discussion it will ultimately become an excuse for your failure and, in turn, a self-fulfilling prophesy.

He sent me an email after saying he thought I would have a great career in IT. I assumed he was just being patronising.

That's just a standard line in a PFO letter, so don't take it personally. I've received or written it more than a fair share of times.

I have no problem doing a program if I am given time to work things out, in fact I relish it;I enjoyed doing the program for that guy and enjoyed presenting it to him. But in an interview situation I am put on the spot so I am found out.

I don't understand this - how are you 'found out' if you can actually program? The only reasons I can think of are low self esteem or that you plagiarize when you code.

I know this post will provoke a barrage of smug responses from IT people who are brilliant at these sort of exams and love doing them and love even more putting down those who are not (IT is full of people like that). However this will not be very helpful to me.

What would be helpful to you then?

stupidusername

Maybe this isn't going to be helpful, as I don't have any advice, but I just wanted to say that I know how you feel. I graduated a year ago in Software Development with a 2.1 and all, but I'm terrified of this part of the interview for an IT job. It is really offputting. So well done for putting yourself through it.

All I can say is keep trying. For me my IBS is my main problem when it comes to applying for these jobs, but if I get past this, the technical questions part is the next hurdle. I think they should realise that not everyone can figure all this stuff out within a few seconds. Maybe if you keep applying, you'll come across a company that doesn't put so much emphasis on this part of it. Maybe you could consider having a discussion with them the next time about that part, and say that you don't seem to do well when put on the spot like that, but would still like to be given a chance (maybe with a trial period)?

LegacyUser

The Corinthian wrote: »

Is this your first job since retraining in IT?

No, I have worked in two jobs before that, both of which required some programming, but they were no "programming" jobs.

The Corinthian wrote: »

It is quite possible that you are applying for jobs that you are not yet qualified or experienced enough to do. Had you considered more junior positions?

That's the sickening thing about it;it WAS a junior position (well, a graduate position).

The Corinthian wrote: »

What you realistically need to do is practice at home. Write hobby projects, offer to do freelance work (even for free in some cases). Good programmers are good programmers typically because they enjoy programming. They develop things at home and when they run into problems they Google a solution - that way they learn things that they would never have learned in college (which is unsurprising as most of the programming you get in college is hardly cutting edge).

I have developed projects at home for free, and I do google things when I run into problems,in fact that's what I like doing most;finding out new things.
The technical test I have problems with are things like this:
http://www.rinkworks.com/brainfood/p/discrete1.shtml
I just can't do them, full stop.

The Corinthian wrote: »

how are you 'found out' if you can actually program? The only reasons I can think of are low self esteem or that you plagiarize when you code.

The program I wrote for that guy in the job I didn't get;a fair bit of it I knew already as I had done it for a website I did at home. I had to plagiarize some of it off the 'net but that was only stuff like what method do need to use to do this etc. All programmers plagiarise to some extent. There's a difference between being resourceful and plagiarising. My rule of thumb is I don't copy code unless I understand it.

The Corinthian wrote: »

What would be helpful to you then?

I suppose how do I become better at problems like the one in the link above or else am I just not suited to programming and would be better at something like website design or hardware?

The Corinthian

gearoid23 wrote: »

I have developed projects at home for free, and I do google things when I run into problems,in fact that's what I like doing most;finding out new things.
The technical test I have problems with are things like this:
http://www.rinkworks.com/brainfood/p/discrete1.shtml
I just can't do them, full stop.

Oh, these things - they're more aptitude / IQ tests. I'm not a big fan of them myself, but surely it's just a question of time/pressure rather than not being able to answer them at all as they're not that hard (certainly if you have a pen and paper to work with). They're really only a test at your ability to visualize a problem and solving it - lateral thinking.

Perhaps you should practice doing them. Like crosswords.

There's a difference between being resourceful and plagiarising. My rule of thumb is I don't copy code unless I understand it.

Fair enough and that's a good rule of thumb. In reality, the longer you're in coding, the more you plagiarize - from your old code. It's called code reuse

I suppose how do I become better at problems like the one in the link above or else am I just not suited to programming and would be better at something like website design or hardware?

Possibly, I can't say. I have a good friend who started off as a programmer, but really wasn't suited to it. Eventually he moved to database development, became a DBA and then went on to data warehousing. Earns a fair bit now.

LegacyUser

The Corinthian wrote: »

Oh, these things - they're more aptitude / IQ tests. I'm not a big fan of them myself, but surely it's just a question of time/pressure rather than not being able to answer them at all as they're not that hard (certainly if you have a pen and paper to work with).

I know, that's what's so embarrassing;I couldn't do one of them. The ones I was asked in the interview were not exactly like those but similar. As I said, my nerves get to me, I can't focus at all. I was stressed about the technical exam before I went in and my worst fears were realised. It's just a huge blow to my morale.

username123

OP - back in the days when I got a programming job I didnt have to do those kinds of tests - Im 14 years at the job now and I think those tests on the link you posted are hard - id make an attempt with a pen and paper - but under pressure - hard. However - you CAN practice those kinds of things - like crosswords, and get better at them. Its a particular way of thinking about problems.

The Corinthian said it takes around 3 months for a programmer to become more than useless - in the company Im in we usually allow 6 months of uselessness and then a further 6 to actually improve well - its not just the coding, its learning the business structure itself and how the data hangs together, what the best practice procedures are within the company etc...

You really need to practice for those tests, a lot are the same questions rephrased over and over. I suggest you get some logic and lateral thinking type books and start doing the exercises - or google more of those types of tests for practice.

asdf1234

What programming languages are you most familiar with?
Drop me a pm if you like, I may be of some (mild) assistance

LegacyUser

asdf1234 wrote: »

What programming languages are you most familiar with?
Drop me a pm if you like, I may be of some (mild) assistance

That's another problem;I have only coded in VBA which is hopelessly outdated. I have done a little C# on the side but not enough to get me a job doing it. It's not just the language though;if I was a good programmer I would have passed at least one of those technical exams and be in a good development job. If I was a good programmer I would be able to do at least some of those tests from the link above. It's just sickeningly disappointing.

I've put my heart and soul into my career over the last eight years. I was actually thinking if I had an iPhone during the interview I would have been able to get the answers to those questions online. I feel guilty for thinking it, I would only be fooling myself at the end of the day, I don't want to get a job by cheating.

Toe Twister

As others have said, you can improve on those tests. Doing them is a skill like anything else, if you practice you'll improve. There should be a few books with these tests and explanations on how to do them in the careers section of any of the larger bookshops.

The Corinthian

gearoid23 wrote: »

That's another problem;I have only coded in VBA which is hopelessly outdated. I have done a little C# on the side but not enough to get me a job doing it.

Then, as I suggested earlier, offer to do a freelance project for a company for free or write and publish a free app using C#.

It could be something simple like a DLL that acts as an interface for a Web service (there's lot's of free Web services out there), which would only take a day to code. Then put it up on your site as a free resource and cite it in your CV.

Where it comes to a free app for companies, you can either draw from your contacts who would be in management positions (or owners) of SME's and ask them what sort of app or automation would be useful for them, offering to write it in return for a reference.

Another approach is lurking on various industry lists, such as the EI eBusiness list and wait for someone to come looking for a quote on an app - then offer them your services for free in return for a reference. Irish SME's being what they are, rarely say no to a freebie...

Once you can point to two or three of these 'portfolio pieces' you will no longer be the 'newbie' you are now and will be taken a lot more seriously - not only in your competency and experience in C#, but also for your initiative.

It's not just the language though;if I was a good programmer I would have passed at least one of those technical exams and be in a good development job. If I was a good programmer I would be able to do at least some of those tests from the link above. It's just sickeningly disappointing.

Those tests don't mean you're a good or bad programmer. They're essentially designed to, in part, assess your IQ, but also to see your capacity to 'think out of the box' which is a very useful quality for a programmer. Nonetheless, even then you can still potentially be a good programmer and crap at those tests.

I do think you need to practice them. If you do enough of them, you'll find that they follow a cognitive pattern where it comes to problem solving and once you've done enough of them you'll find that when you see one you'll immediately get a feeling for where to start.

All in all, I would look at a three month timetable to upgrade your skills and CV with the above suggestions. Start practicing those tests on a regular basis and get going on a few personal/freebie projects. Do that and you will have a far more attractive CV and be more comfortable with those tests by the end of October.

LegacyUser

Hey thanks for going to the trouble of writing that long response. I have a lot of work in front of me if I want to get a job. I'm not afraid of hard work but my self-esteem is low at the moment.
You made some great suggestions which I will act upon. I have a website which I created in my free time but it didn't lead to any job offers so that discouraged me from doing anything similar. I think my mistake might have been that I didn't do it for a specific company, I just did it for myself. If I was to do a freelance project for a company it would be better.
I will look for some books on Amazon that help me to be come better at those kind of exams.
I still think I am not suited to a pressurised job.

The Corinthian

gearoid23 wrote: »

I have a website which I created in my free time but it didn't lead to any job offers so that discouraged me from doing anything similar. I think my mistake might have been that I didn't do it for a specific company, I just did it for myself. If I was to do a freelance project for a company it would be better.

A personal website is almost expected of anyone working in IT nowadays, so it wasn't a waste of time. What you need to do is turn it into a vehicle for advertising yourself by including articles, links to past work and downloads of your personal projects.

I still think I am not suited to a pressurised job.

That is something that will be an issue no matter what industry you're in, so you might look at finding ways to deal with pressure or stress - 30 minutes or an hour playing a game after a stressful day, does it for me. Pressure in programming jobs varies wildly; some firms are laid back, others are high octane. Ultimately you'll find a job that will fit you, or it will find you, and when you do you'll be a valued resource because you'll be less likely to leave than others and that's often hard to find in an employee.

Good luck.

LegacyUser

The Corinthian wrote: »

A personal website is almost expected of anyone working in IT nowadays, so it wasn't a waste of time. What you need to do is turn it into a vehicle for advertising yourself by including articles, links to past work and downloads of your personal projects.

That is something that will be an issue no matter what industry you're in, so you might look at finding ways to deal with pressure or stress - 30 minutes or an hour playing a game after a stressful day, does it for me. Pressure in programming jobs varies wildly; some firms are laid back, others are high octane. Ultimately you'll find a job that will fit you, or it will find you, and when you do you'll be a valued resource because you'll be less likely to leave than others and that's often hard to find in an employee.

Good luck.

OK I'll try

Hmm_Messiah

I have developed projects at home for free, and I do google things when I run into problems,in fact that's what I like doing most;finding out new things.
The technical test I have problems with are things like this:
http://www.rinkworks.com/brainfood/p/discrete1.shtml
I just can't do them, full stop.

I would have said 21 to No4 in that list , and not 3

I know off topic - but I think I am right and the test is wrong but if there are 40 loose socks then you could take 20 black before you take a white

The Corinthian

Hmm_Messiah wrote: »

I would have said 21 to No4 in that list , and not 3

I know off topic - but I think I am right and the test is wrong but if there are 40 loose socks then you could take 20 red before you take a white

"Your sock drawer contains ten pairs of white socks and ten pairs of black socks."

None of them are red. You are colour blind.

The number of socks is irrelevant, only the number of possible colours. The logic is this:

1. You take a sock.
2. You take another sock. This may be of either colour. As such you may or may not have a match already. If not you have one of each colour.
3. You take another sock. If you didn't have a match on your second draw and thus had one of each colour, then the third must match one of the previous two.

As such, you may have a match after drawing two socks, but are guaranteed a match once you draw three. Q.E.D.

LegacyUser

You are obviously pretty good at these type of things Corinthian. I need to practise them, I don't know if they are something you can learn, maybe you either have a flair for them or don't.

Boskowski

These tests are designed to measure your analysis and problem solving skills. Is it the pressure in the interview situation that's getting to you or can't you solve those even at home with unlimited time? If it's the former then you can just practice those and eventually you'll become more confident. If it's the latter then maybe programming isn't your thing after all. But even in that case you may be able to work yourself into a programming job by gathering experience in a related discipline. You might consider working in a tech support role or in software testing for a while. Def'ny start little home projects, simple stuff even.

kjl

gearoid23 wrote: »

I know, that's what's so embarrassing;I couldn't do one of them. The ones I was asked in the interview were not exactly like those but similar. As I said, my nerves get to me, I can't focus at all. I was stressed about the technical exam before I went in and my worst fears were realised. It's just a huge blow to my morale.

may sound crazy OP, but if nerves are really holding you back, go to your gp and ask him for some anti-stress medication. I did this for a few interviews and they went very well. If so strange when you go into an interview but you don't feel any nerves at all, but at the same time its liberating.

I too am a software developer, now I was able to work out most of those questions, but I don't really see how they are relevant. In fact the only company I know that uses these types of questions is Microsoft. They tend to ask you these kind of questions in phone interviews, where you can just google the answer.

Sound Bite

OP, can add very little to this.

You've been given some great advise, particulary by The Corinthian.

Like any interview tests, the purpose is not to get everything right. Usually its testing your ability to work under pressure and you logical reasoning.

There's a huge difference between not being able to complete the tests yourself without reference to the internet and just letting the pressure get to you in the pressure get to you in an interview situation?

Depending on which one is the real issue, you need to take a different approach to resolving it.

Hvae you considering voluntaring/unpaid position just to build up your experience?

LegacyUser

kjl wrote: »

may sound crazy OP, but if nerves are really holding you back, go to your gp and ask him for some anti-stress medication. I did this for a few interviews and they went very well. If so strange when you go into an interview but you don't feel any nerves at all, but at the same time its liberating.

I am on medication for anxiety but I wasn't really stressed before the interview. I was worried about the exam and when I saw it on paper I just lost my nerve and couldn't even attempt any of the questions

kjl wrote: »

I too am a software developer, now I was able to work out most of those questions, but I don't really see how they are relevant. In fact the only company I know that uses these types of questions is Microsoft. They tend to ask you these kind of questions in phone interviews, where you can just google the answer.

I don't see how they are relevant either. I am probably saying that because I am no good at them but it would have suited me much better to be asked to write a program and be given a day to do it and then present it to them at the interview and explain it to them.
I suppose they wanted to see what I was like under pressure though.

Sound Bite wrote:

Hvae you considering voluntaring/unpaid position just to build up your experience?

I am already doing that.

I was thinking of learning how to write iPhone apps, they seem to be the next big thing but there are a lot of people doing them already so maybe I have missed the boat.

micdug

gearoid23,

As a hiring manager, technical tests are invaluable. They do seperate those that know the basics from those that don't, because technical tests unlike CV's and charming interviews, don't lie. All these excuses about stress, pressure are just that, if you knew what you are about, you would sail through them. At the end of the day companies want to avoid bad hires for both the companies and employees benefit.

So my question is this.
Firstly if you really wanted to be a programmer, you'd certainly know more then VBA. LAMP at the least, Java/C# at a competent level as well. You don't so I can't seriously take you as a programmer.
Secondly, software development is a talent. The best are ten times more productive then the moderately good, who are 10 times better then poor. From your commentary you seem to be falling into the latter pool. And in case you think this is insulting, I place myself in that pool too. That's why I choose not to go into development but into infrastructure, and not into the technical stream of infrastucture but the management stream when the opportunity arose - no management jokes please beacuse I was good at managing, and translating business to technical.

Best advice I can plagerise is this - find something you are good at and enjoy, and your career will take off! Clearly thats not happening for you at the moment, so step back and have a think of where you want to go. Programming isn't the only career in IT! And IT is not the only career. Don't box yourself into the wrong path because of your recent qualifications.

Genuinely hope this helps.

LegacyUser

micdug wrote: »

gearoid23,

All these excuses about stress, pressure are just that, if you knew what you are about, you would sail through them.

micdug wrote: »

So my question is this.
Firstly if you really wanted to be a programmer, you'd certainly know more then VBA. LAMP at the least, Java/C# at a competent level as well. You don't so I can't seriously take you as a programmer.

I do know Java;I did it college but haven't done much in it since I left college three years ago. I have taught myself a little C# also. I can write programs; I wouldn't have been able to get a degree otherwise. I like the side of programming where you learn new things, new technologies etc.

micdug wrote: »

Programming isn't the only career in IT! And IT is not the only career. Don't box yourself into the wrong path because of your recent qualifications.

I know programming isn't the only career in IT but I suppose that's the area most people who do IT see themselves eventually working in in order to justify their degree. I think I could be good at teaching computers to people, I don't know though.

micdug

gearoid23 wrote: »

I do know Java;I did it college but haven't done much in it since I left college three years ago. I have taught myself a little C# also. I can write programs; I wouldn't have been able to get a degree otherwise. I like the side of programming where you learn new things, new technologies etc.

Knowing Java and a little C# does not cut it. A grad programmer is expected to show projects they have completed and do a tough code test. So you are not at the races here. As for degree - thats the problem - people can graduate from the Institutes in particular without being able to programme - a number of them are now junk rated degrees.

gearoid23 wrote: »

I know programming isn't the only career in IT but I suppose that's the area most people who do IT see themselves eventually working in in order to justify their degree. I think I could be good at teaching computers to people, I don't know though.

No they don't. The bulk of people in IT work in Operations, IT, Sales, Consultancy, etc etc, many of them earning substantially more then they would have if they became developers. It strikes me that you know very little about the industry. Have a look at the jobs sites, talk to people - there are literally hundreds of roles in the IT world.
For example - a tester - does not need strong dev knowledge, just analytical nature.
What about Sharepoint Development - mainly simple forms and workflow but absolutely explosive growth in this market.

You can only get into training (not "teaching computers" with a couple of years experiance - sharepoint is good at the moment. You'll need to get a cert as well for this.

But most of all you need to improve your self esteem and attitude. You need to figure out a path an invest time and effort in become marketable to employers in that area.

muppetkiller

Why not go for some QA roles and then when a development role comes up in the company apply for that ?
You wont have those Tests to deal with and QA is an easy role to start in.

OwenM

micdug wrote: »

people can graduate from the Institutes in particular without being able to programme - a number of them are now junk rated degrees.

Really? Anywhere I can find out which ones?

micdug

OwenM wrote: »

Really? Anywhere I can find out which ones?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0303/1224265501148.html

I'm not naming names as they are out there if you want them (and pretty easy to guess), but the drop off in standards outside the big 3 (TCD, UCD, UCC) is enormous. And yes, I have seen graduates unable to complete the simplest code tests.

LegacyUser

micdug wrote: »

Knowing Java and a little C# does not cut it. A grad programmer is expected to show projects they have completed and do a tough code test. So you are not at the races here. As for degree - thats the problem - people can graduate from the Institutes in particular without being able to programme - a number of them are now junk rated degrees.

I know; that's why I am so disappointed in myself.

LegacyUser

Sorry meant to post as Gearoid, posted under the wrong username from looking at another post.

InReality

Thing is, being a developer or programmer isn't the be all and end all in IT !

Try and keep that in mind.

My guess is that its mainly your overall self esteem you need to look at , this focus on one part of one career isn't the real thing that is holding you back at all.