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M11 - Arklow to Rathnew

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    #1052
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,022 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    josip wrote: »
    Seeing the new road for the first time in daylight since last autumn, I was also surprised by the apparent narrowness until I realised that the carriageways will be separated by just a concrete barrier with no median stip. So the new section of road can't be easily converted to 3 lane without major rework of junctions/bridges? Which I initially thought was short sighted.
    But the Glen of the Downs-Kilmacanogue-Bray section is also limited to 2 lanes with little prospect of upgrade to 3 lanes.
    So is the reality that the wide median strip from Newtown Mount Kennedy to the Beehive is an expensive overdesign that will never be needed?
    Our options for Bray to places south are limited by nature, geography and buildings close to the road. NTMK is the least of our worries.


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    #1053
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    josip wrote: »
    So is the reality that the wide median strip from Newtown Mount Kennedy to the Beehive is an expensive overdesign that will never be needed?

    That was probably designed before the nra had to eat their humble pie and install median barriers. the nra originally stated sheepwire fences would be grand


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    #1054
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    That was probably designed before the nra had to eat their humble pie and install median barriers. the nra originally stated sheepwire fences would be grand

    If wikipedia is to be believed it was opened in 1990 (before the NRA came about), so it was reflective of the standards of the time.

    The DCs that were built in and around Galway in the 90s have the similar style medians.


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    #1055
    ITDept
    Registered Users Posts: 281 ✭✭ITDept


    Maybe remove the concrete barrier, put as many lanes in as fit in the space and operate them on a tidal basis. In the mornings more lanes would be allocated to northbound traffic, in the evenings it would be southbound.

    Lots of places use similar systems with some success (so it's not something we'd have to invent from scratch), it's cheaper than building bridges / tunnels, and it's a relatively easy thing for the motoring public to get their heads around (if there's a green arrow you can use the lane, if there's a red X you can't).


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    #1056
    veryangryman
    Registered Users Posts: 5,553 ✭✭✭veryangryman


    ITDept wrote: »
    Maybe remove the concrete barrier, put as many lanes in as fit in the space and operate them on a tidal basis. In the mornings more lanes would be allocated to northbound traffic, in the evenings it would be southbound.

    Lots of places use similar systems with some success (so it's not something we'd have to invent from scratch), it's cheaper than building bridges / tunnels, and it's a relatively easy thing for the motoring public to get their heads around (if there's a green arrow you can use the lane, if there's a red X you can't).

    In my opinion safety trumps everything. The barrier is what makes a motorway or dc a good thing.

    Possibly lose the hard shoulder to make a lane but again, safety issues


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    #1057
    Schadenfreudia
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Schadenfreudia


    veryangryman wrote: »

    Possibly lose the hard shoulder to make a lane but again, safety issues

    In the Glen there isn't a hard shoulder to lose - thanks to the tree-huggers. :mad:


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    #1058
    josip
    Registered Users Posts: 13,874 ✭✭✭✭josip


    Speaking of tree huggers, 2 trees fell on the stretch between Redcross and the Beehive tonight, completely blocking the road. Lots of flashing maintenance trucks and squad cars on hand to clear things up.


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    #1059
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    antoobrien wrote: »
    If wikipedia is to be believed it was opened in 1990 (before the NRA came about), so it was reflective of the standards of the time.

    The DCs that were built in and around Galway in the 90s have the similar style medians.

    The wiki link you posted states 2004 as the opening of the stretch of road in question, Newtownmountkennedy to the Beehive.


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    #1060
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    The wiki link you posted states 2004 as the opening of the stretch of road in question, Newtownmountkennedy to the Beehive.

    It's not the Newtownmountkennedy bypass? My bad.


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    #1061
    vickers209
    Registered Users Posts: 1,464 ✭✭✭vickers209


    antoobrien wrote: »
    It's not the Newtownmountkennedy bypass? My bad.

    The Rathnew Ashford bypass opened on August 04 which tied into the Newtown bypass which opened in 1990.
    where the median is is a hill of grass that is the Newtown bypass where it's level with road is the rathnew Ashford bypass


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    #1062
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,022 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    The wiki link you posted states 2004 as the opening of the stretch of road in question, Newtownmountkennedy to the Beehive.
    If you're talking about the NTMK bypass itself (Jct 12-13), that was opened in 1990. The part of the N11 south of that town as far as Ashford (Jct 13-17) is what opened in 2004.

    In 1990 standards for DCs and motorways were different from now.

    It's all on this page (Click to show/hide minor schemes).

    [Edit: vickers209, you beat me to it!]


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    #1063
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,022 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    ITDept wrote: »
    Maybe remove the concrete barrier, put as many lanes in as fit in the space and operate them on a tidal basis. In the mornings more lanes would be allocated to northbound traffic, in the evenings it would be southbound.
    You'd still need a barrier to separate the edge of the reversible lane from the other side of the road. The arrangement to enable the switchover is often complex too, this video shows it happening in Chicago using fixed infrastructure.
    In this video from San Diego, however, the switching is done using a moveable barrier. That would work best on the N11 since it takes up less space.

    I'm normally not a fan of tidal lanes as it's usually better to just widen the road instead of messing about with moving barriers, and it doesn't work on roads where there are equally large traffic flows in both directions in both rush hours, such as on the M50.

    But in the case of the N11 we're quite constrained and there is a clear am-inbound, pm-outbound flow so I think it could have merit.


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    #1064
    ITDept
    Registered Users Posts: 281 ✭✭ITDept


    I've been on a few that don't use a barrier to separate the directions. They just leave an empty lane as far as I know. If you could squeeze 6 lanes in, then you'd have 3 inbound, 1 empty / separator and 2 outbound and then you re-allocate the empty lane during the day.

    I don't think you need permanent hard shoulders in such an arrangement either - just close off the lane if someone breaks down there. You could also install a variable speed limit system at the same time to try to limit bunching.

    The one I'm a little familiar with is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A38%28M%29_motorway I know there are differences but I think some of the ideas in use there could work here.


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    #1065
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    spacetweek wrote: »
    If you're talking about the NTMK bypass itself (Jct 12-13), that was opened in 1990. The part of the N11 south of that town as far as Ashford (Jct 13-17) is what opened in 2004.

    This section would have been built to similar standards to the NTMK bypass (wide medians & wire) as the standards were changed after a number of crashes in/around 2004 where cars went through the central reservation into oncoming traffic.

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/crash-victims-fighting-for-lives-after-m50-pileup-injures-seven-25888653.html


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    #1066
    prunudo
    Registered Users Posts: 7,320 ✭✭✭prunudo


    ITDept wrote: »
    I've been on a few that don't use a barrier to separate the directions. They just leave an empty lane as far as I know. If you could squeeze 6 lanes in, then you'd have 3 inbound, 1 empty / separator and 2 outbound and then you re-allocate the empty lane during the day.

    I don't think you need permanent hard shoulders in such an arrangement either - just close off the lane if someone breaks down there. You could also install a variable speed limit system at the same time to try to limit bunching.

    The one I'm a little familiar with is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A38%28M%29_motorway I know there are differences but I think some of the ideas in use there could work here.

    Considering the concept of driving on a 3 lane motorway seems to be a mystery to so many irish drivers, Id say your example would cause all sorts of issues.


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    #1067
    Schadenfreudia
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Schadenfreudia


    As I've nearly lived on this road for much of my life I think the dates in the Wikipedia are very accurate.


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    #1068
    badgerbroc11
    Registered Users Posts: 141 ✭✭badgerbroc11


    ITDept wrote: »
    If you could squeeze 6 lanes in, then you'd have 3 inbound, 1 empty / separator and 2 outbound and then you re-allocate the empty lane during the day.

    In Ireland!! Where lots of people still can't use a roundabout... Soon, Google will be transporting us in driverless cars and lanes won't matter. Has the ITDept any updates :-)


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    #1069
    veryangryman
    Registered Users Posts: 5,553 ✭✭✭veryangryman


    I think the In Ireland thing gets old. The fact is that most of the older generation never saw a roundabout until circa 1995 (and later in rural areas).

    To compare it with any country where they grow up with such facilities is nonsense. Yes its no excuse and yes they should be retested to avoid a flight risk, but its not exclusive to Ireland.


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    #1070
    Falcon L
    Closed Accounts Posts: 891 ✭✭✭Falcon L


    veryangryman wrote: »
    I think the In Ireland thing gets old. The fact is that most of the older generation never saw a roundabout until circa 1995 (and later in rural areas).

    To compare it with any country where they grow up with such facilities is nonsense. Yes its no excuse and yes they should be retested to avoid a flight risk, but its not exclusive to Ireland.
    The ageism in this forum is astounding!

    I've been driving nearly 43 years and I remember roundabouts being a feature of my driving the whole time.

    I've used tidal systems before - without any lane division other than white lines - and found them to be the most natural thing in the world. They work very well. All that is required is that drivers follow the lights and signs.

    Drivers without a clue aren't restricted to any age, or nationality for that matter.


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    #1071
    OldMrBrennan83
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    This post has been deleted.


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    #1072
    jd
    Registered Users Posts: 5,695 ✭✭✭jd


    Patww79 wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Yup, today entered M50 from Ballymun ramp going southbound, in left hand auxiliary lane. Guy in front of me barrelled across hatching, right hand merge lane and on to main carriageway. Absolutely pointless, he had maybe 4 kms to merge if he'd stayed where he was, and I ended up merging maybe 3/400 meters ahead of him.


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    #1073
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,022 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Everyone take a deep breath and let's get back on track.


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    #1074
    jd
    Registered Users Posts: 5,695 ✭✭✭jd


    I'm traveling to Wexford tomorrow afternoon - if I have time I'll try get a few photos. The last time I was down was a month ago, it'll be interesting to see if there is noticeable progress over the course of a month.


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    #1075
    ITDept
    Registered Users Posts: 281 ✭✭ITDept


    jd wrote: »
    I'm traveling to Wexford tomorrow afternoon - if I have time I'll try get a few photos. The last time I was down was a month ago, it'll be interesting to see if there is noticeable progress over the course of a month.

    The bit around The Bee Hive should be quite different. Also a lot more stretches of the new road have been surfaced at this stage.


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    #1076
    ITDept
    Registered Users Posts: 281 ✭✭ITDept


    badgerbroc11 wrote: »
    In Ireland!! Where lots of people still can't use a roundabout... Soon, Google will be transporting us in driverless cars and lanes won't matter. Has the ITDept any updates :-)

    When you say 'soon' I think you may be talking in geological terms ;) I'll be pleasantly surprised if it happens in Ireland in my lifetime.


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    #1077
    Irish_rat
    Registered Users Posts: 2,555 ✭✭✭Irish_rat


    Patww79 wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Don't want to drag the thread off topic again but this is nonsense. Go to mainland Europe and you'll see much more aggressive and dangerous driving. I think the quality of drivers in this country is improving, lane discipline could be improved somewhat though.


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    #1078
    OldMrBrennan83
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    This post has been deleted.


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    #1079
    josip
    Registered Users Posts: 13,874 ✭✭✭✭josip


    I was on it last Saturday, Sunday and Monday. No problems at any time.
    Monday I was going through at 6pm on a wet evening and everything kept moving.
    Biggest danger is rubbernecking to see all the completed sections of the new road.
    Over winter they've turned it from a MotoCross track into a high spec road.
    Waiting the last few months will be tough.


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    #1080
    OldMrBrennan83
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    This post has been deleted.


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    #1081
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    Patww79 wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    I'd say the ppp contract stated the developer gets no money until all 3 projects are complete, so there's no rush to finish the petrol station.

    There's concrete median barrier down on a bit of the new road as of last Monday.
    Wonder if there'll be much stir next week, do builders holidays still happen?


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