How do people still belive in God?

George Orwell 1982

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

And I am still waiting for you to come down of the ridiculously high horse you're on but that's not going happen anytime soon is it?

Well why is my idea outlandish to you but your belief in God is perfectly fine. Its impossibe to disprove either idea.

George Orwell 1982

Bloody Nipples wrote: »

I thought you'd finished.

I'm Back.

Bloody Nipples

George Orwell 1982 wrote: »

I'm Back.

****.

AudreyHepburn

George Orwell 1982 wrote: »

Well why is my idea outlandish to you but your belief in God is perfectly fine. Its impossibe to disprove either idea.

I'm not even going to waste my breath arguing with you because you clearly won't listen anyone who doesn't share your opinion or just immediately accept you are right.

Get over yourself :rolleyes:

George Orwell 1982

steve06 wrote: »

Who cares if she is or not, it doesn't affect you!

Because both ideas are equally outlandish but neither can be proved wrong.

Einhard

o1s1n wrote: »

Convert believers to what though? Athiests aren't trying to convert you to anything.

Any athiests I know who are very vocal about it are just tring to debunk whatever religion a person might be going on about. It's not the same thing as a religious person trying to force beliefs on you. (Which I have experienced many times)

They are trying to convert a believer to their way of thinking. Nothing wrong with having a good arguement on the matter, but when I see fellow atheists sneering boorishly at believers and ridiculing their beliefs it's embarassing. I mean, aren't we supposed to be the liberal, enlightened ones?

Ush1 wrote: »

You mean converting you to thinking along the lines of logic and science?

See, most Theists have no choice but to accept science anyway. Science works you see. Planes fly, the cars they drive move and work. This is all thanks to science.

There's very few mainstream believers who'd disagree. Indeed, most of the great scientists were believers of some sort, some of them even devout. Belief in a higher being and scientific rationality are not mutually exclusive.

Raiser wrote: »

Surely Science has better things to be considering other than the preposterous notion that there exists a being along the absurd and nonsensical lines of the 'God' Figure as described in the Bible; Most especially the Old Testament which is even more insane and bizarre than its half-arséd sequel?

Some atheists seem not only to disbelieve God, but actively hate the very idea, the institutions that stand behind it, and even those who suscribe to it. There's a curious animosity bubbling under some of the posts here that I think unfortunately informs a the attitude of a vociferous minority of atheists.

genericguy wrote: »

because religion demands that science be disregarded, making it the direct enemy of science.

No it doesn't. Some religious people do obviously, but contemporary religion doesn't do anyting of the sort. Even the stifling of scientific exploration in earlier times was often temporary, and that proscribed by one pope was often accepted by the next.

Also, science should be open to rigorous questioning and scepticism, and its ethical implications debated, and its not just believers who engage in this.

then you have a cnut like the pope hounding people for carrying out scientific research - well i hope when the cnut gets cancer he doesn't have the cheek to take any meds, cos they don't come from any magical man in the sky.

Who has he hounded exactly?

George Orwell 1982

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I'm not even going to waste my breath arguing with you because you clearly won't listen anyone who doesn't share your opinion or just immediately accept you are right.

Get over yourself :rolleyes:

No I will listen honestly. And I am genuinely interested to know how belief in God is rational.

Why is my idea so outlandish but your belief in God is reasonable.

barbiegirl

Why is everyone which ever way they feel trying to push their believes in others. Belief of lack of it is a private thing and nobody has the right to rubbish another on it. So long as one side isn't hurting the other why does it matter to anyone else.
Do and feel what is right for you.

smash

Einhard wrote: »

Some atheists seem not only to disbelieve God, but actively hate the very idea, the institutions that stand behind it, and even those who suscribe to it. There's a curious animosity bubbling under some of the posts here that I think unfortunately informs a the attitude of a vociferous minority of atheists.

I think bad experiences of dealing with 'people of faith' has a lot to be said for that side of it.

George Orwell 1982 wrote: »

No I will listen honestly. And I am genuinely interested to know how belief in God is rational.

Probably the same way you do the lotto in the hopes that you'll win.

AudreyHepburn

barbiegirl wrote: »

Why is everyone which ever way they feel trying to push their believes in others. Belief of lack of it is a private thing and nobody has the right to rubbish another on it. So long as one side isn't hurting the other why does it matter to anyone else.
Do and feel what is right for you.

I don't think anyone was doing that thb. I certainly wasn't. I'm just trying to understand why my beliefs are so offensive to others

Wazdakka

Because they're fúcking stupid.
Scared and stupid.

AudreyHepburn

George Orwell 1982 wrote: »

No I will listen honestly. And I am genuinely interested to know how belief in God is rational.

Why is my idea so outlandish but your belief in God is reasonable.

I never said your idea was outlandish, I just chose not to comment because there's no point in arguing with some-one who won't listen.

You haven't listened to me so far, so I see no reason why I should try to put my points to you anymore.

barbiegirl

George Orwell 1982 wrote: »

No I will listen honestly. And I am genuinely interested to know how belief in God is rational.

Why is my idea so outlandish but your belief in God is reasonable.

First lets look at what the definition of rational is "having its source in or being guided by the intellect (as distinguished from experience or emotion)" So you would prefer everyone to live their lives and makes their decisions with no account of experience or emotion. That is a sad way to live ones life.
I live my life combining all three, love isn't rational, hate and anger (something which you display in great quantities aren't rational) Or perhaps you would like to explain not why your beliefs are rational (your beliefs are none of my business) but why, leaving out emotion or experience your attacks on others beliefs are justified. Remember be purely rational.

barbiegirl

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I don't think anyone was doing that thb. I certainly wasn't. I'm just trying to understand why my beliefs are so offensive to others

In fairness I don't think you were. :-) Though others are both sides are, such as the hoghly offensive remark by Wazdakka

Millicent

George Orwell 1982 wrote: »

Its about as reasonable as your belief in God.

First, it was a joke so cool your jets there cranky!

Secondly, I've already said that faith or belief isn't reasoned-based but intuitively felt. There was a whole other part to that long quote that you appear to have not bothered to read. Which is a pity cos I kind of hoped it would help!

Ush1

Einhard wrote: »

There's very few mainstream believers who'd disagree. Indeed, most of the great scientists were believers of some sort, some of them even devout. Belief in a higher being and scientific rationality are not mutually exclusive.

Actually, alot of great scientists weren't, or disregarded these beliefs at some point. However, it still doesn't add any rationality to it. None.

Asmodean

To me faith is a security blanket. some people have a lot of hardship in their lives and its a small comfort to believe its not all doom and gloom. just leave them be unless they're actively harassing you. religion is still a huge part of some peoples lives. who are we to tell them how to think.

yaaaboy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mmskXXetcg

kylith

Einhard wrote: »

Some atheists seem not only to disbelieve God, but actively hate the very idea, the institutions that stand behind it, and even those who suscribe to it. There's a curious animosity bubbling under some of the posts here that I think unfortunately informs a the attitude of a vociferous minority of atheists.

I don't hate religious people, you're entitled to believe in whatever rubbish you want as long as you leave me alone.*

What I do hate is what religion does to people.
They abdicate responsibility: "God, why did you give me cancer?" no supernatural being gave you cancer, it's a mutation in your cells, possibly caused by smoking 40 cigs a day for 20 years.
They hand over the credit for their achievements: "I passed my exams, thank God". Don't thank a supernatural being, you're the one who did all the studying.
They hand over their money. When I was in Paris I went to visit Notre Dame, and the sight of the jewels on display broke my heart when I thought of the people dying of starvation in the streets at the time when the church was amassing the vast wealth on display. The fact that the Vatican is filled with enough wealth to greatly improve the lives of the very poorest on the planet and these 'holy' men do nothing is sickening.
It seems to rob some people of their sanity. I've had religious people tell me I'm going to burn in hell, not because I'm evil, but because I just don't believe in a deity, and some people can't understand that I have a concept of morality because they think that you can only have morals if you believe in god (which says a worrying amount about them, I think).

*except I don't get left alone. I get woken at 9am on Sundays when I visit my parents with puppy-dog eyes and 'do it for me' pleading. I get jokes about bursting into flames should I cross the threshold of a church. I get weird looks when I attend a christening or something because I don't recieve communion or mouth along with prayers. I get lengthy lectures from relatives about my alleged immortal soul and the damage I'm apparently doing to it. And mostly I get to grit my teeth and not swear at these people.

George Orwell 1982

barbiegirl wrote: »

First lets look at what the definition of rational is "having its source in or being guided by the intellect (as distinguished from experience or emotion)" So you would prefer everyone to live their lives and makes their decisions with no account of experience or emotion. That is a sad way to live ones life.
I live my life combining all three, love isn't rational, hate and anger (something which you display in great quantities aren't rational) Or perhaps you would like to explain not why your beliefs are rational (your beliefs are none of my business) but why, leaving out emotion or experience your attacks on others beliefs are justified. Remember be purely rational.

I appreciate the honest attempt at an answer. I don't think it is unreasonable to make some judgements in your life based on experience or emotion. But, how does your experience or emotion tell you there is a god?

barbiegirl

My experience is quite private to me. If revolves around both the very good and very bad times I have been through. My belief is personnal to me and is not necessarily in line completly with any one church or belief. Whether God is an all seeing being, or the inner depth and strength you find inside yourself, or is to be found sitting on top of Three Rock enjoying the beauty of nature, or in the total devastation of my mother at the death of my father, he and my belief in Him (though he could be a she) is as a result of feeling his presence in my life.
But that is just me, everyone's experiences and lifes are different. It is a mixture of emotions and experience.
However do not get belief in God confused with the institution of church. The institutions are run by men, men are fallible and as we all know power corrupts, so don't look to the top for demonstrations on what faith in God means but rather look to those doing small inconsequential things in their daily lives.

Millicent

George Orwell 1982 wrote: »

I appreciate the honest attempt at an answer. I don't think it is unreasonable to make some judgements in your life based on experience or emotion. But, how does your experience or emotion tell you there is a god?

I've had a few experiences (private ones so I'm not really comfortable discussing them) that have nudged me in the direction of believing in a God or sentient deity or whatever you want to call it. I'm not unreasonable or unintelligent (I'm finishing out an MA) so it's not for sheepish reasons that I feel there is something there. It's not necessarily the white-haired hippy God that most people picture but I feel attuned to something. Hope that makes sense?

smash

People use a 'god' as a distraction from reality. "God will help me through this" - therefore they believe that 'god' will lead them in whatever direction he sees fit, so they can take their mind off things.

If it works for them, let them at it. They're not hurting anyone else. Unless 'god' tells them to blow something up.

George Orwell 1982

Millicent wrote: »

I've had a few experiences (private ones so I'm not really comfortable discussing them) that have nudged me in the direction of believing in a God or sentient deity or whatever you want to call it. I'm not unreasonable or unintelligent (I'm finishing out an MA) so it's not for sheepish reasons that I feel there is something there. It's not necessarily the white-haired hippy God that most people picture but I feel attuned to something. Hope that makes sense?

This I can relate to a bit more. I certainly can understand agnosticism. The idea of some unknown force in our lives or something beyond ourselves.

Its more the narrow belief in a particular religion that I cannot understand.

Millicent

George Orwell 1982 wrote: »

This I can relate to a bit more. I certainly can understand agnosticism. The idea of some unknown force in our lives or something beyond ourselves.

Its more the narrow belief in a particular religion that I cannot understand.

Honestly, I can understand why. I was strictly Catholic as a young one (I mean seriously- prayer meetings, altar girl, choir girl, daily rosary, retreats- seriously!) Even when I was young and when I was devout, certain aspects of Catholicism bugged the crap out of me. I could never understand why, despite my devoutness and good behaviour, I was someone deemed unworthy of being a priest because of my genitalia. I asked priests, prayer meeting holders, nuns etc. why not and never got an answer that didn't strike me as BS. They also used to get annoyed with me when I would question further. I put no stock in the judgement of these people over my own.

Check out my quote from Dogma a few pages back. Sums up what I think.

Einhard

kylith wrote: »

What I do hate is what religion does to people.
They abdicate responsibility: "God, why did you give me cancer?" no supernatural being gave you cancer, it's a mutation in your cells, possibly caused by smoking 40 cigs a day for 20 years.
They hand over the credit for their achievements: "I passed my exams, thank God". Don't thank a supernatural being, you're the one who did all the studying.

Oh that's just silly. "Thank God" and the like are just everyday phrases that people use colloquially. They're not actually in praise of some deity. I use words and phrases like that all the time and I don't even believe in the man above! Similarly, are you seriously suggesting that when the average Irish person is afflicted by cancer or whatever, they don't actually appreciate the medical cause? Do you know people who, when seriously ill, disdain the doctor and instead go to the local priest, or are you just building up convenient strawmen?

They hand over their money. When I was in Paris I went to visit Notre Dame, and the sight of the jewels on display broke my heart when I thought of the people dying of starvation in the streets at the time when the church was amassing the vast wealth on display. The fact that the Vatican is filled with enough wealth to greatly improve the lives of the very poorest on the planet and these 'holy' men do nothing is sickening.

The Catholic Church is the gaurdian of the greatest collection of art and antiquities on the planet. And I for one am delighted that that is the case. I visited Tuscany recently and was blown away by the art to be seen in even the simplest parish churches. Interestingly, such art was also in display in the many hospitals and alms houses which the medieval and Renaiisance Church had established to cater for the needs of the poor and needy. Do you think a secular society would have filled the breach in the absence of spiritual charity?

One of the best experiences of my life was spending a day in the Vatican Museum. The Church doesn't hoard away her treasures like some jealous miser, but displays them for people of ALL faiths to see. She is the curator of an amazing worldwide collection, and I'd far prefer to have them in the hands of the Church, on display for all to see, rather than adorning the walls and private collections of Russian oligarchs or oil-rich sheikhs.

Also, if we're to be consistent, and expect the Church to sell her collections, then surely we should dispose of the collections in the National Gallery and IMMA, melt down the gold artifacts in the National Museum, and use the proceeds to endow charitable foundations?

It seems to rob some people of their sanity. I've had religious people tell me I'm going to burn in hell, not because I'm evil, but because I just don't believe in a deity, and some people can't understand that I have a concept of morality because they think that you can only have morals if you believe in god (which says a worrying amount about them, I think).

This is true. But socialism can rob people of their sanity. Patriotism can rob people of their sanity. Wouldn't it be better to target those who have actual lost their sanity, rather than the systems which, for whatever reason, have led to that loss?

*except I don't get left alone. I get woken at 9am on Sundays when I visit my parents with puppy-dog eyes and 'do it for me' pleading. I get jokes about bursting into flames should I cross the threshold of a church. I get weird looks when I attend a christening or something because I don't recieve communion or mouth along with prayers. I get lengthy lectures from relatives about my alleged immortal soul and the damage I'm apparently doing to it. And mostly I get to grit my teeth and not swear at these people.

So you grit your teeth and refrain from robust response when these people accost you in person, yet you feel free to vent your frustrations and animosity anonymously at those here who merely happen to hold a different position than you? Right. I think that says a lot.

gbee

OK guys, I want ye all to rush out and buy a lottery ticket for tonight's Euro Millions.

Now the gambit is that I've just prayed to God for winner. So I must post this in the last time you prayed thread.

The deal is simple:
All those who believe in God will be proven right if they win:
All those who do not believe in God WILL, after they win:

OK, who's on, I've got my ticket, I'm sure we can mek this the conclusive scientific experiment.

Einhard

gbee wrote: »

OK guys, I want ye all to rush out and buy a lottery ticket for tonight's Euro Millions.

Now the gambit is that I've just prayed to God for winner. So I must post this in the last time you prayed thread.

The deal is simple:
All those who believe in God will be proven right if they win:
All those who do not believe in God WILL, after they win:

OK, who's on, I've got my ticket, I'm sure we can mek this the conclusive scientific experiment.

Not scientific. Just stupid.

It's ironic how people who pay such lip service to scientific endeavour and empiricism can be so ignorant of the issues they argue.

barbiegirl

gbee wrote: »

OK guys, I want ye all to rush out and buy a lottery ticket for tonight's Euro Millions.

Now the gambit is that I've just prayed to God for winner. So I must post this in the last time you prayed thread.

The deal is simple:
All those who believe in God will be proven right if they win:
All those who do not believe in God WILL, after they win:

OK, who's on, I've got my ticket, I'm sure we can mek this the conclusive scientific experiment.

I'm going to take this tongue in cheek as the SCIENCE behind winning the lotto, is based on the mathematics of chance, and as the first number has a 1 in 42 chance of coming up, the second has 1 in 41 and so on, then you multiply all these together and come up with an astronomical number, my honours maths was quite some time ago.
Remember belief is about faith not proof :-)

steddyeddy

How come people dont believe in bigfoot but believe in god is a more valid qeustion