How do people still belive in God?

Ush1

Millicent wrote: »

No they're not. I really don't get where you're getting that from. There have been a lot of people who believe in God here acknowledging the power and wisdom of science.

Yes they are.

People have been talking about evolution, the origins of the universe, etc... and what they have been saying is powerfully ignorant.

Just because you acknowledge science doesn't mean you are familiar enough with it to make any relevant point with regards to it. How many people have needed to be told that monkeys didn't evolve into man??

gbee

I_AmThe_Walrus wrote: »

'"God" is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.' - RD

I listened to that today, class.

Millicent

Ush1 wrote: »

Yes they are.

People have been talking about evolution, the origins of the universe, etc... and what they have been saying is powerfully ignorant.

Just because you acknowledge science doesn't mean you are familiar enough with it to make any relevant point with regards to it. How many people have needed to be told that monkeys didn't evolve into man??

And is there a requirement for them to be interested in it? Can you point to where these powerfully ignorant posts are? Haven't noticed them tbh but I could be wrong. Perhaps people who believe in God would feel you're not familiar enough with it to make any relevant point with regards to it.

sligopark

How do people still belive in God?

with faith

starlit

how do people still believe in nama!? oh wrong thread...oppsy:o

Ush1

Millicent wrote: »

And is there a requirement for them to be interested in it? Can you point to where these powerfully ignorant posts are? Haven't noticed them tbh but I could be wrong. Perhaps people who believe in God would feel you're not familiar enough with it to make any relevant point with regards to it.

Not to be insulting, but I'm not that familiar with fairies or leprachauns. Although I have read quite alot on religion and am open to correction to the "science" of it.

Where did I say they have to be interested? They just have to know what they're talking about.

Millicent

Ush1 wrote: »

Not to be insulting, but I'm not that familiar with fairies or leprachauns. Although I have read quite alot on religion and am open to correction to the "science" of it.

Where did I say they have to be interested? They just have to know what they're talking about.

I know you're not trying to be insulting but it is simplistic to suggest that you may either have a belief in God or an understanding of science. Where are the ignorant posts about science? I'm genuinely curious here, honestly. I can't see where you are getting that people are ignorant of science. If it's to do with the story of creation, most of us (I would imagine) believe in evolution and view that story as a parable.

kylith

CCCP wrote: »

Its paradoxical to you because you have a very narrow and generalized view of what it is to believe in God.

I'm with science and the facts, evolution is a fact etc.
However I still believe in God, the driving force behind evolution.
Evolution however, is spontaneous and random, the fittest survive to pass on their genes, through this life is perfecting itself, it's how the kingdom of heaven is being built, eventually life will perfect itself and we will have heaven - a perfect state.
It's all very simple and obvious.

What about the fact that evolution doesn't produce perfect animals, and in many cases animals evolve so specifically to environments that the slightest change can wipe them out? Giraffes have been pushed by sexual selection to evolve longer and longer necks so that now they can be killed by a simple fall. Some animals and plants have evolved such perfect symbiosis that a drop in the numbers of one is a death blow for the other.

Let's face it, if your god was looking to evolve the perfect life form it's already been done in the form of Water Bears (Tardigrades); they can survive a decade of drought, radiation, cold (to almost absolute zero), even survive and breed in space. Or bacteria that survive in lava, or in ice, resist antibiotics, eat rock and acid and since they reproduce asexually they're effectively immortal.

CCCP

kylith wrote: »

What about the fact that evolution doesn't produce perfect animals, and in many cases animals evolve so specifically to environments that the slightest change can wipe them out? Giraffes have been pushed by sexual selection to evolve longer and longer necks so that now they can be killed by a simple fall. Some animals and plants have evolved such perfect symbiosis that a drop in the numbers of one is a death blow for the other.

Let's face it, if your god was looking to evolve the perfect life form it's already been done in the form of Water Bears (Tardigrades); they can survive a decade of drought, radiation, cold (to almost absolute zero), even survive and breed in space. Or bacteria that survive in lava, or in ice, resist antibiotics, eat rock and acid and since they reproduce asexually they're effectively immortal.

I see your point about Tardigrades.
yet they have no sentience or comprehension of what they are, so how can they be perfect? Perfection doesn't mean perfect survival ability alone.

Evolution is chaotic and mistakes are made, the universe is a cruel place, and I never said it wasn't so, and endless amount of mistakes will be made in order to create one success. I am not a proponent of intelligent design. I am a realist and scientific person. Biology and in particular Aquatic biodiversity is an area of fascination to me and I have spent most my life studying animals, and natural history, it's fascinating.

I can see what your point is but really it has little merit in arguing against my opinions as my belief takes all that into account.

Many atheists here are hinging their arguments on the presupposition that people who believe in God have little or no understanding of science.
I am as scientific if not more then any of you. I am well read and studied.
I just see a bigger picture then you are willing to see and while your argument initially provides a compelling opposition, upon meditation it really does not oppose anything I have said.

If you really want to provide an argument that may shoot down my belief system try answering some of the questions I posed in the post you previously quoted from. I would be interested to see if any atheist can give me an answer.

A brief version of the questions I posed for those who don't wish to trace back through the thread:

We have a sense of Moral direction that sets us apart from the animal kingdom, where did it come from and why do actions based on morals frequently
contradict empirical reasoning, even amongst atheists?

I_AmThe_Walrus

CCCP wrote: »

Its paradoxical to you because you have a very narrow and generalized view of what it is to believe in God.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

I believe God intervenes in this process and can intervene upon request and prayer, I have experienced this many many times in my life.
It's all very simple and obvious.

God does not intervene in anything because such a supernatural entity does not exist.

none of you are true atheists, you all have an inherent sense of right and wrong in your hearts, this is the seed Jesus planted. its called love and you cant deny that no matter how atheistic you may feel, how cynical of faith, you will still be ruled by morals in your life, morals that are inbuilt, defy evolutionary logic, but are unavoidable. Only the greatest necessity or corruption of the mind would lead to someone acting against these morals.

Being a moral person has nothing to do with religion. I am a good human being, I give to the poor, I'm a good citizen and I am colour-blind regarding races. Religion is not. Religion is homophobic, blood thirsty, bigoted and racist.

I do not have to believe in God to be a moral person. The two are simply not linked. I am an atheist. I am free.

For example - 2 people trapped on a desert island
Both are starving to death, both are atheist. one is strong and one is weak.
There is no evolutionary, logical or rational sense to the stronger atheist dying of hunger when he could eat the weaker.
Yet he most likely won't, there is very little chance that he will resort to such a deed.
why?
As an atheist there will be no repercussions for his actions in his belief system.
There would be no reason for guilt.

Yet he knows that he will feel guilty, that he will be committing an awful act, if he were to do such a thing.

why? because we are all subject to the laws of God and this sense is inbuilt and unavoidable. Deniable yes.

This has absolutely nothing to do with religion in any way, shape or form, by any stretch of the imagination. God did not give us or show us right and wrong.

Just as there is God above and beyond the functions of the universe.

You are woefully misinformed and completely delusional.

MagicMarker

CCCP wrote: »

I believe God intervenes in this process and can intervene upon request and prayer, I have experienced this many many times in my life.

Such as?

CCCP

Im not going to give you a walk through of my life and experiences involving god to prove anything.

Im not trying to prove anything, The Op asked how people can still believe in god and I answered why I believe in god

I_AmThe_Walrus

CCCP wrote: »

none of you are true athiests

The only position that leaves me with no cognitive dissonance is atheism. It is not a creed. Death is certain, replacing both the siren-song of Paradise and the dread of Hell. Life on this earth, with all its mystery and beauty and pain, is then to be lived far more intensely: we stumble and get up, we are sad, confident, insecure, feel loneliness and joy and love. There is nothing more; but I want nothing more.

Beware the irrational, however seductive. Shun the 'transcendent' and all who invite you to subordinate or annihilate yourself. Distrust compassion; prefer dignity for yourself and others. Don't be afraid to be thought arrogant or selfish. Picture all experts as if they were mammals. Never be a spectator of unfairness or stupidity. Seek out argument and disputation for their own sake; the grave will supply plenty of time for silence. Suspect your own motives, and all excuses. Do not live for others any more than you would expect others to live for you.

Our belief is not a belief. Our principles are not a faith. We do not rely solely upon science and reason, because these are necessary rather than sufficient factors, but we distrust anything that contradicts science or outrages reason. We may differ on many things, but what we respect is free inquiry, open-mindedness, and the pursuit of ideas for their own sake.

I am an atheist.

robinph

CCCP wrote: »

Im not going to give you a walk through of my life and experiences involving god to prove anything.

Im not trying to prove anything, The Op asked how people can still believe in god and I answered why I believe in god

So although your claiming to have proof of his existence, after you praying to him and something magical happening I presume, you don't believe in it quite enough to dare to share this proof with anyone else.

MagicMarker

CCCP wrote: »

Im not going to give you a walk through of my life and experiences involving god to prove anything.

Im not trying to prove anything, The Op asked how people can still believe in god and I answered why I believe in god

It's funny how everyone says that when I ask for examples. Could it be your ''answered prayers'' are just bullshít that can explained rationally without divine intervention?

I_AmThe_Walrus

To all the cult followers;

Human decency is not derived from religion. It precedes it. One must state it plainly. Religion comes from the period of human prehistory where nobody-not even the mighty Democritus who concluded that all matter was made from atoms-had the smallest idea what was going on. It comes from the bawling and fearful infancy of our species, and is a babyish attempt to meet our inescapable demand for knowledge (as well as for comfort, reassurance and other infantile needs). Today the least educated of my children knows much more about the natural order than any of the founders of religion, and one would like to think-though the connection is not a fully demonstrable one-that this is why they seem so uninterested in sending fellow humans to hell.

I suppose that one reason I have always detested religion is its sly tendency to insinuate the idea that the universe is designed with 'you' in mind or, even worse, that there is a divine plan into which one fits whether one knows it or not. This kind of modesty is too arrogant for me. We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here.

CCCP

I_AmThe_Walrus wrote: »

You have no idea what you're talking about.

First of all thats rather insulting and uncalled for. I said I believe in God and evolution, which seems paradoxical to someone who thinks all believers in god are creationists.

What I said makes sense and a statement like that from you, although it may satisfy some part of your ego, means nothing.

I_AmThe_Walrus wrote: »

God does not intervene in anything because such a supernatural entity does not exist.

I disagree, you have your beliefs I have mine, mine are based on personal experience and therefore I have good reason to believe. I cannot prove that to you and don't wish to.

I_AmThe_Walrus wrote: »

Being a moral person has nothing to do with religion. I am a good human being, I give to the poor, I'm a good citizen and I am colour-blind regarding races.

I never said an atheist couldn't be moral and good, I asked a question as to why an atheist can be moral and good, what is the point if they are purely logical beings. Its a philosophical question and if you READ what I said instead of REACTING to a supposed attack on your ideals, then you would see this.

I_AmThe_Walrus wrote: »

Religion is not. Religion is homophobic, blood thirsty, bigoted and racist.

I am not religious and I agree with you that religion is homophobic, bloodthirsty etc. I was asking a philosophical question.

I_AmThe_Walrus wrote: »

I do not have to believe in God to be a moral person. The two are simply not linked. I am an atheist. I am free.

Thats a fare enough statement , i asked why and how that can be, when atheists here seem to be using science and logic as their basis to dispute belief in god, and clearly moral actions defy logic (martyrdom for example). Not why are YOU good and moral, but why are we born with these traits when animals are not, what is the alternative explanation to what I believe, that these morals are inbuilt, a divine aspect. a philosophical question.

I_AmThe_Walrus wrote: »

This has absolutely nothing to do with religion in any way, shape or form, by any stretch of the imagination. God did not give us or show us right and wrong.

Never said it had anything to do with religion, I'm talking about belief in god not religion cant you see the difference. I was asking, and Ill rephrase it for the Umpteenth time! Where do these ethics come from and why would a rational godless person adhere to them?

I_AmThe_Walrus wrote: »

You are woefully misinformed and completely delusional.

I believe in God, and I am woefully misinformed and delusional.
Thank you, For a person who has only a few sentences ago wrote of their goodness and tolerance, you have just showed enormous ignorance and intolerance towards people who don't share you r belief.

CALM YOUR JETS BUDDY. go smoke a spliff or whatever it is an obvious John Lennon fan does when he cant handle adult conversation without resorting to insults and intolerance.

CCCP

I_AmThe_Walrus wrote: »

To all the cult followers;

Human decency is not derived from religion. It precedes it. One must state it plainly. Religion comes from the period of human prehistory where nobody-not even the mighty Democritus who concluded that all matter was made from atoms-had the smallest idea what was going on. It comes from the bawling and fearful infancy of our species, and is a babyish attempt to meet our inescapable demand for knowledge (as well as for comfort, reassurance and other infantile needs). Today the least educated of my children knows much more about the natural order than any of the founders of religion, and one would like to think-though the connection is not a fully demonstrable one-that this is why they seem so uninterested in sending fellow humans to hell.

I suppose that one reason I have always detested religion is its sly tendency to insinuate the idea that the universe is designed with 'you' in mind or, even worse, that there is a divine plan into which one fits whether one knows it or not. This kind of modesty is too arrogant for me. We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here.

Now thats more like it, I enjoyed reading that, and gave me food for thought.

For the record - Personally I don't follow any cult.

I_AmThe_Walrus

CCCP wrote: »

First of all thats rather insulting and uncalled for. I said I believe in God and evolution, which seems paradoxical to someone who thinks all believers in god are creationists.

What I said makes sense and a statement like that from you, although it may satisfy some part of your ego, means nothing.



I disagree, you have your beliefs I have mine, mine are based on personal experience and therefore I have good reason to believe. I cannot prove that to you and don't wish to.




I never said an atheist couldn't be moral and good, I asked a question as to why an atheist can be moral and good, what is the point if they are purely logical beings. Its a philosophical question and if you READ what I said instead of REACTING to a supposed attack on your ideals, then you would see this.


I am not religious and I agree with you that religion is homophobic, bloodthirsty etc. I was asking a philosophical question.


Thats a fare enough statement , i asked why and how that can be, when atheists here seem to be using science and logic as their basis to dispute belief in god, and clearly moral actions defy logic (martyrdom for example). Not why are YOU good and moral, but why are we born with these traits when animals are not, what is the alternative explanation to what I believe, that these morals are inbuilt, a divine aspect. a philosophical question.


Never said it had anything to do with religion, I'm talking about belief in god not religion cant you see the difference. I was asking, and Ill rephrase it for the Umpteenth time! Where do these ethics come from and why would a rational godless person adhere to them?

I believe in God, and I am woefully misinformed and delusional.
Thank you, For a person who has only a few sentences ago wrote of their goodness and tolerance, you have just showed enormous ignorance and intolerance towards people who don't share you r belief.

CALM YOUR JETS BUDDY. go smoke a spliff or whatever it is an obvious John Lennon fan does when he cant handle adult conversation without resorting to insults and intolerance.

I apologise if I got your panties in a twist.

You said you don't believe in religion. So, there you don't believe in God. If you believe something is "pulling the strings" within our universe, then you accept Intelligent Design. The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind pitiless indifference.

After sleeping through a hundred million centuries we have finally opened our eyes on a sumptuous planet, sparkling with color, bountiful with life. Within decades we must close our eyes again. Isn’t it a noble, an enlightened way of spending our brief time in the sun, to work at understanding the universe and how we have come to wake up in it? This is how we answer when we are asked—as we are surprisingly often—why we bother to get up in the mornings.

Intelligent Design, which you believe, is highly improbable. My objection to supernatural beliefs and Intelligent Design is precisely that they miserably fail to do justice to the sublime grandeur of the real world. They represent a narrowing-down from reality, an impoverishment of what the real world has to offer.

CCCP

MagicMarker wrote: »

It's funny how everyone says that when I ask for examples. Could it be your ''answered prayers'' are just bullshít that can explained rationally without divine intervention?

Well usually examples of this kind are deeply personal and I don;t wish to share such information about myself on the net to strangers, sorry.

they can all be explained rationally, i never mentioned miracles, I believe god works with the natural order. They were highly unlikely events, highly improbable events, in my life, that has led me to believe in God.

I can state this, of myself, as my reason for believing in God.
what is your problem with that?

MagicMarker

I_AmThe_Walrus wrote: »

To all the cult followers;

Human decency is not derived from religion. It precedes it. One must state it plainly. Religion comes from the period of human prehistory where nobody-not even the mighty Democritus who concluded that all matter was made from atoms-had the smallest idea what was going on. It comes from the bawling and fearful infancy of our species, and is a babyish attempt to meet our inescapable demand for knowledge (as well as for comfort, reassurance and other infantile needs). Today the least educated of my children knows much more about the natural order than any of the founders of religion, and one would like to think-though the connection is not a fully demonstrable one-that this is why they seem so uninterested in sending fellow humans to hell.

I suppose that one reason I have always detested religion is its sly tendency to insinuate the idea that the universe is designed with 'you' in mind or, even worse, that there is a divine plan into which one fits whether one knows it or not. This kind of modesty is too arrogant for me. We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here.

Dude, at least provide sources rather than let people assume these are your own words, which they are not.

MagicMarker

CCCP wrote: »

Well usually examples of this kind are deeply personal and I don;t wish to share such information about myself on the net to strangers, sorry.

they can all be explained rationally, i never mentioned miracles, I believe god works with the natural order. They were highly unlikely events, highly improbable events, in my life, that has led me to believe in God.

I can state this, of myself, as my reason for believing in God.
what is your problem with that?

They can all be explained rationally? So why do you believe God intervened? That in itself, is irrational.

CCCP

I_AmThe_Walrus wrote: »

I apologise if I got your panties in a twist.

You said you don't believe in religion. So, there you don't believe in God. If you believe something is "pulling the strings" within our universe, then you accept Intelligent Design. The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind pitiless indifference.

After sleeping through a hundred million centuries we have finally opened our eyes on a sumptuous planet, sparkling with color, bountiful with life. Within decades we must close our eyes again. Isn’t it a noble, an enlightened way of spending our brief time in the sun, to work at understanding the universe and how we have come to wake up in it? This is how we answer when we am asked—as we are surprisingly often—why we bother to get up in the mornings.

Intelligent Design, which you believe, is highly improbable. My objection to supernatural beliefs and Intelligent Design is precisely that they miserably fail to do justice to the sublime grandeur of the real world. They represent a narrowing-down from reality, an impoverishment of what the real world has to offer.

Ok ok

I'm actually coming to like you, your clearly an intelligent an enlightened individual.

I agree with you on everything above.

Please try and understand this, I dont believe in intellegent design.

I may have a philosophy that doesn't fit with your previous priory's of religion, and that may be offensive to you, but lets at least understand this:

I believe in God, I don't follow organized religion, I don't believe in intelligent design.

I cant explain God, But its my belief and I am entitled to it.

CCCP

MagicMarker wrote: »

They can all be explained rationally? So why do you believe God intervened? That in itself, is irrational.

No its not
God can intervene without breaking any laws of the universe.
Highly unlikely things happening in a fashion that's mathematically so improbable it just shouldn't of happened.

Doesn't mean I have to see God in a burning bush to have experienced God in my life.

Folks speaking of maths and chance, I'm off to play poker enjoyed this chat. Ill post tomorrow.

mcmoustache

starbelgrade wrote: »

How come, that any time - day or night, 365 days a year - if a thread is started about God, the church or Christianity, that within 2 pages, Jakkass appears, out of the blue, as if he has been summoned by a higher power?

Is it possible, that he is omnipresent?

To be fair to the guy, as much as I think that his beliefs are crazy, he's alway prepared to be challenged on those beliefs, he responds to questions and he never gets rude in his responses. You can't really fault him for being interested.

Raiser

***CRACKLE***

Rod, Todd - This is God!!!!


/**CRACKLE***

Honestly - Have a modicum of sense - As if a God figure would let his Representatives on Earth abuse the youngest, most fragile, most vulnerable Humans in their care physically and sexually on such a comprehensive and massive scale.

- What a crappy Club to renew a Membership in...... And what a selfish way to follow your own urges while ignoring the real Sinners on the other side of the Confessional Grille.

"Bless me Father for I have sinned - But I bet I have nothing on you, you Dress wearing, Purple-Hatted, Hypocritical, twisted Sicko......"

MagicMarker

I_AmThe_Walrus wrote: »

I apologise if I got your panties in a twist.

You said you don't believe in religion. So, there you don't believe in God. If you believe something is "pulling the strings" within our universe, then you accept Intelligent Design. The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind pitiless indifference.

After sleeping through a hundred million centuries we have finally opened our eyes on a sumptuous planet, sparkling with color, bountiful with life. Within decades we must close our eyes again. Isn’t it a noble, an enlightened way of spending our brief time in the sun, to work at understanding the universe and how we have come to wake up in it? This is how we answer when we are asked—as we are surprisingly often—why we bother to get up in the mornings.

Intelligent Design, which you believe, is highly improbable. My objection to supernatural beliefs and Intelligent Design is precisely that they miserably fail to do justice to the sublime grandeur of the real world. They represent a narrowing-down from reality, an impoverishment of what the real world has to offer.

Are you gonna continue to copy and paste your arguments?

Btwndeyes

Why not, why do u care what others believe? Some people have got nothing else to hope for and belief is all they have, Why take that away?

MagicMarker

CCCP wrote: »

No its not
God can intervene without breaking any laws of the universe.
Highly unlikely things happening in a fashion that's mathematically so improbable it just shouldn't of happened.

Doesn't mean I have to see God in a burning bush to have experienced God in my life.

Folks speaking of maths and chance, I'm off to play poker enjoyed this chat. Ill post tomorrow.

So, let's see.

There are 5 people sitting at a table, one person has a deck of cards and deals out all 52 amongst the people sitting at the table. Now, what is the probability that the sequence of the cards dealt were dealt in that specific sequence?

You could say that God intervened, considering the improbability of those cards being dealt in that exact sequence?

I am now a believer. Amen.

storm2811

All this arguing, over what?
"I'm right, you're wrong, you're beliefs are crazy"
"No, I'm right, you're non belief is crazy"

What is the fecking point here?
Why bother challenging peoples' beliefs?

Leave them be, people shouldn't have to fight for what they believe in.