France to expel Roma illegals - should we follow?

genericguy

southsiderosie wrote: »

They reportedly made less money in Spain than they did in Italy, but at least people left them alone.

how did they make their money?

MickShamrock

Round 'em up, ship 'em out.

ejmaztec

KindOfIrish wrote: »

Actually France not the first. Hitler did it 70 years ago.

Weren't the Indians the first, about 1000 years ago, after which the Roma headed for Europe to get away from the prejudice?

Einhard

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

The French are really getting it together these days and they're right to be doing it. Fair play for them for dispensing with the silly PC nonsense and bringing in sometimes controversial measures to protect their country, culture and people from anything they don't like.

So now government policy on immigration and policing should be based on what the majority like or dislike? Lots of Irish peopel dislike travellers. Lots of Americans dislike atheists. Lots of Australians dislike Aborigines. Shoud their respective governments target said groups to protect the majority from what they dislike?

Dempsey wrote: »

The Human Rights League are calling it racism which is just political correctness gone mad. Read the fupping article

It is racist to target one specific group. If Sarkozy had launched a move against ALL illegals I'd have no problem with it. But he didn't; By targetting the Roma he deliberately played to the prejudice of the gallery, and established a clearly xenophobic programme for short-term political expediency. What's worse is that rather than satiate LePen's rabid supportes, this move will only embolden them.

gurramok wrote: »

Somehow its racist to deport illegal immigrants!

Just racist to pick and choose which ethnic groups you're going to target. I'm sure if Obama launched a policy targetting only Irish illegals, people here would have a somewhat different view.

28064212 wrote: »

Have I missed something here? Doesn't this article essentially say that the French government has told police to.. ehhh... enforce the law? Has something changed? They don't have any new powers, they haven't changed the law in any way. The only real question to be answered is why the illegal camps have been able to stay for so long

You are missing something. Sarkozy has not launched a general crackdown against illegal immigrants, but one specifically targetting the Roma. He is basing government policy on ethnicity, and moving against people not because of their legal status, but because of their ethnic status. I fail to see how that can be construed as anything other than racist.

Terry wrote: »

Because people will cry genocide or some other bull****.
Listen, folks. They are not being exterminated. They are just being sent back to their countries of origin.

Where exactly are their countries of origin? If they are EU citizens, surely they can't be illegal?

southsiderosie

prinz wrote: »

What statistics? Btw the citizenship of a person is only one aspect to illegal immigration. In many continental European countries you must report your presence to the authorities if you intend to stay a prolonged period of time etc, even for EU citizens.



That's what they are planning.



You mean illegals right? Or did I miss something about legal Roma in France being deported?

I had a point to point response to this, but I give up. No European politician in the post-WWII era should be talking about "rounding up" specific ethnic minority groups for expulsion. End of story.

prinz

Einhard wrote: »

It is racist to target one specific group. If Sarkozy had launched a move against ALL illegals I'd have no problem with it. But he didn't; By targetting the Roma he deliberately played to the prejudice of the gallery, and established a clearly xenophobic programme for short-term political expediency.

Except they didn't. Sarkozy says the government is telling the police to enforce the current laws particularly in relation to the illegal camps, many of which are Roma. He also suggests changing the laws to speed up the dpeortation process for everyone in future. It's simply a case of a blind eye being turned to Roma immigration and illegal settlements, and now something is going to be done about it.

Einhard wrote: »

Just racist to pick and choose which ethnic groups you're going to target. I'm sure if Obama launched a policy targetting only Irish illegals, people here would have a somewhat different view..

I had a brother deported from the States since Obama came to power. Doesn't alter my view in the slightest.

Einhard wrote: »

Where exactly are their countries of origin? If they are EU citizens, surely they can't be illegal?

Yes they can.

prinz

southsiderosie wrote: »

I had a point to point response to this, but I give up. No European politician in the post-WWII era should be talking about "rounding up" specific ethnic minority groups for expulsion. End of story.

Nobody is. What they are talking about is "rounding up" illegal immigrants. The legal Roma I am sure are safe going about their business in France.

ejmaztec

genericguy wrote: »

how did they make their money?

Like This

Saab Ed

southsiderosie wrote: »

I had a point to point response to this, but I give up. No European politician in the post-WWII era should be talking about "rounding up" specific ethnic minority groups for expulsion. End of story.

There for, if a certain specific ethnic minority clan together in an iillegal in -campment , this should exclude them from the regular rules of the land just because of the Nazis 70 years ago. If there were people from all over the planet including western white people from another country ( not French ) within the in-campment, would it be okay to tackle the problem then !!!

ejmaztec

Einhard wrote: »

If they are EU citizens, surely they can't be illegal?

As mentioned way back in post no. 28, but it didn't sink in.:(

prinz

ejmaztec wrote: »

As mentioned way back in post no. 28, but it didn't sink in.:(

That's because it's wrong. As an EU citizen you do not have an automatic right to stay an unlimited period of time, particularly if unemployed (and have no evidence of actively trying to secure work), nor do you have the right to stay for an extended period of time in a country which requires reigistration with the authorities at some stage.

Also..

An EU country is entitled to refuse to issue or renew your residence permit, or to require you to leave its territory, if your actions constitute a serious threat to public order or public security. However, having a criminal record is not, in itself, sufficient grounds to justify such a measure automatically.

http://ec.europa.eu/youreurope/nav/en/citizens/services/eu-guide/living/index_en.html#11324_3

Applies to EU citizens. Sarkozy chose his words carefully.

azzie

This is the paragraph from the previously quoted EU law which is strictly enforced in France, but from what I've seen, not in Ireland
However, you must have sufficient financial resources and health insurance so as not to be a burden on the social security system in the country in which you choose to live.

the_syco

genericguy wrote: »

how did they make their money?

If Ireland is anything to go by, begging.

ejmaztec

prinz wrote: »

That's because it's wrong. As an EU citizen you do not have an automatic right to stay an unlimited period of time, particularly if unemployed (and have no evidence of actively trying to secure work), nor do you have the right to stay for an extended period of time in a country which requires reigistration with the authorities at some stage.

Also..



http://ec.europa.eu/youreurope/nav/en/citizens/services/eu-guide/living/index_en.html#11324_3

Applies to EU citizens. Sarkozy chose his words carefully.

It must be high-time for a clear-out then, for anyone falling into the undesirable category, and also of non-EU illegals trying to skip across borders e.g the ones trying to find their way across the English Channel.

prinz

ejmaztec wrote: »

It must be high-time for a clear-out then, for anyone falling into the undesirable category, and also of non-EU illegals trying to skip across borders e.g the ones trying to find their way across the English Channel.

IIRC they hit the camp up near the Channel Tunnel a few weeks ago.

southsiderosie

Saab Ed wrote: »

There for, if a certain specific ethnic minority clan together in an iillegal in -campment , this should exclude them from the regular rules of the land just because of the Nazis 70 years ago. If there were people from all over the planet including western white people from another country ( not French ) within the in-campment, would it be okay to tackle the problem then !!!

As I said, it's not a Roma issue, it's a squatting issue. Most travellers in France are French. The fact that Sarkozy is making this an immigration issue is a cheap and historically dangerous political ploy...not to mention the fact that if he wants to impose law and order, then his government ought to enforce the rules regarding set-asides for travellers in towns with more than 5,000 people. But I don't think National Front voters care about that.

Luxie

azzie wrote: »

This is the paragraph from the previously quoted EU law which is strictly enforced in France, but from what I've seen, not in Ireland
However, you must have sufficient financial resources and health insurance so as not to be a burden on the social security system in the country in which you choose to live.

Yeah, I've lived in four other EU states other than Ireland in my time. In three, you are expected to get residency papers/ID Card (delete as appropriate to the country in question). It's rather hard to get them without a job and a job without the residency papers.

Einhard

prinz wrote: »

That's because it's wrong. As an EU citizen you do not have an automatic right to stay an unlimited period of time, particularly if unemployed (and have no evidence of actively trying to secure work), nor do you have the right to stay for an extended period of time in a country which requires reigistration with the authorities at some stage.

Yes, but registration is merely a formality, a means by which a nation can keep tabs on those within her borders. It's not intended as a form of immigration control as you seem to be implying. There is no reason, for example, why a Roma would not be allowed to register in a given country.

Also..



http://ec.europa.eu/youreurope/nav/en/citizens/services/eu-guide/living/index_en.html#11324_3

Applies to EU citizens. Sarkozy chose his words carefully.

I don't think most people would have a problem with that. However, to use such a statute against an entire enthnic group, rather than individuals is, I'm sure you'd agree, wholly unacceptable.

ejmaztec

prinz wrote: »

IIRC they hit the camp up near the Channel Tunnel a few weeks ago.

Don't they keep coming back when they think the heat's died down?

prinz

Einhard wrote: »

Yes, but registration is merely a formality, a means by which a nation can keep tabs on those within her borders. It's not intended as a form of immigration control as you seem to be implying. There is no reason, for example, why a Roma would not be allowed to register in a given country..

A formality which must be complied with. If it is not complied with then you are not legally resident in x town. You asked can an EU citizen be illegaly in another EU country, the answer is yes.

Einhard wrote: »

I don't think most people would have a problem with that. However, to use such a statute against an entire enthnic group, rather than individuals is, I'm sure you'd agree, wholly unacceptable.

But it's not. It may primarily affect one group over another but it is not confined to one single ethnic group. The EU regulations apply to everyone. Doesn't matter if it's me, or myself and my extended family etc. Individually it applies to all. Being part of an ethnic group does not negate that.

Nodin

prinz wrote: »

But it's not. It may primarily affect one group over another but it is not confined to one single ethnic group.

You might want to inform sarkozy

There is widespread speculation, according to the daily newspaper, “La Croix”, that Wednesday’s cabinet meeting will pave the way for a new anti-crime agenda targeting itinerant populations, specifically the Roma. According to an outline of the plan recently published by the newspaper, the justice and immigration ministries would expand the definition of “public order” to make it easier to expel Roma migrants

http://www.france24.com/en/20100728-sarkozy-address-roma-problem-cabinet-meeting-amid-criticism-rights-groups-france-travelling-people

Singling out a group by their origin and not behaviour goes against the principle of egalite, on my understanding of the French way of things.

Einhard

prinz wrote: »

A formality which must be complied with. If it is not complied with then you are not legally resident in x town. You asked can an EU citizen be illegaly in another EU country, the answer is yes.

Yes, but they are illegal on a technicality, in that they have the option to regularise their status by availing of what you yourself admit is a formality. It's quite a different situation to the Nigerian who has no such option open to him, and who is illegal simply for being in the country.

But it's not. It may primarily affect one group over another but it is not confined to one single ethnic group. The EU regulations apply to everyone. Doesn't matter if it's me, or myself and my extended family etc. Individually it applies to all. Being part of an ethnic group does not negate that.

That's true, but this thread is devoted to the targetting for expulsion of an entire ethnic group, not individuals within that community. Thus the legislation you quoted does not come into affect here, unless you are advocating, as some here no doubt will, that the entire Roma community be viewed according to the lowest common demoninator?

Davidius

This reminds me of Disney's version of the Hunchback of Notre Dame.

Diabhal_Glas

Some of the scobes have been trying to oust the Romani's for a while now

http://www.flickr.com/photos/13111789@N00/3695579692/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/13111789@N00/2905191206/

Terry

Einhard wrote: »

It is racist to target one specific group. If Sarkozy had launched a move against ALL illegals I'd have no problem with it. But he didn't; By targetting the Roma he deliberately played to the prejudice of the gallery, and established a clearly xenophobic programme for short-term political expediency. What's worse is that rather than satiate LePen's rabid supportes, this move will only embolden them.

Interior Minister Brice Hortefeux said Thursday on RTL radio that over the next three months he would use decrees to dismantle about 300 illegal camps, of which 200 belong to Roma. These camps are the source of “illicit trafficking, children exploited for begging, prostitution or delinquency,” he said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/30/world/europe/30france.html?src=mv
So there is about 100 camps which are not Roma. Hey, let's ignore that though. It gets in the way of screaming racism.

Once again, not specifically targetting Roma.
Not specifically targetting Roma.
Not specifically targetting Roma.

The above is courtesy of the wise words of Marge Simpson from the episode "Lemon of Troy".

southsiderosie wrote: »

I had a point to point response to this, but I give up. No European politician in the post-WWII era should be talking about "rounding up" specific ethnic minority groups for expulsion. End of story.

Jesus ****ing Christ. He's not sending them to be gassed in concentration camps.
Hitler analogies are completely redundant.
The amount of Godwin in this thread is ridiculous.

ejmaztec wrote: »

Don't they keep coming back when they think the heat's died down?

Yep. Into the back of trucks bound for England. Then onto Ireland.

Terry

Diabhal_Glas wrote: »

Some of the scobes have been trying to oust the Romani's for a while now

http://www.flickr.com/photos/13111789@N00/3695579692/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/13111789@N00/2905191206/

****ing scumbag. Has this been shown to the Gardaí?

Diabhal_Glas

Terry wrote: »

****ing scumbag. Has this been shown to the Gardaí?

Its old news at this stage Terry and has been on Flickr quiet a while, I'm sure they have seen it by now. I honestly wouldn't say the old bill give a flying feck.

HavingCrack

If they're illegal immigrants and are living in illegal settlements the laws should be applied. However the two issues are mutually inclusive, you could be a French Romani living in an illegal settlement.

I think Sarkozy is only using this to appease the far right however as he's showing no signs of similar moves against illegal Algerians, Pakistanis, West Africans etc etc as he knows this would see a repeat of the Paris riots again.

InTheTrees

darkman2 wrote: »

I think we will inevitably have to do the same as the Germans are doing it

Yeah lets all do it like the germans, they've have such a great track record of dealing with minorities right?

southsiderosie

Terry wrote: »

Jesus ****ing Christ. He's not sending them to be gassed in concentration camps.
Hitler analogies are completely redundant.
The amount of Godwin in this thread is ridiculous.

I generally agree that Nazi references are over-used on boards. But the overtones in this story are unbelievably nasty, especially since - as you pointed out - it's clear that this isn't simply a Roma issue. But Sarkozy chose to emphasize that particular aspect to curry political favor, and he (and others) should know better - especially given the current economic situation.