Court for Arbitration in Sport finds in favour of FAI

Fr Tod Umptious

LeeroyJones wrote: »

As far as FIFA see it, anyone who holds the passport of a particular country is entitled to play for that country.

I don't think that is the case, I think FIFA had to make eligibility rules tougher than just having a passport to prevent places like Qutar handing out passports to get Brazilians to play for them

http://cultureofsoccer.com/2007/02/10/players-switching-nationalities-a-long-term-quandary/

That is what makes the IFA/FAI ruling so controversial, all a guy from NI needs is a ROI passport and they can play for ROI

briany

From the opinions I see being given it's not so much these players opting to play for the Republic that galls them so but the fact that oftentimes these players have come up through the IFA system and then only to be plucked from the vine when they are ripe by the FAI. That's an understandable concern but equally they'd be in no fit state to declare in interest in playing in one side or the other when they're just starting to play at a single figure age. From the player's point of view, say a moderate nationalist who would have an eye toward playing for the republic but mainly wants to play international football, it makes sense to wait and see if they can attain the level which would attract interest or maybe seeking their fortunes with N.I. A cutoff age of declaration would be ideal whereby the player would declare for one association or the other and the other association could forget about that player and put no more resources towards developing them.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Paul4As wrote: »

No one from a unionist background will play for the Republic...they will aspire to play for the country they were born in!!!
I think this decision made has well and truly put the nail in the coffin of any all-island team!!!
What this has done has more or less stopped soccer in Northern Ireland from uniting the two communites...what it means is players who consider themselves British will play for Northern Ireland...and players who consider themselves Irish will play for the Republic!!!
The Good Friday Agreement was a political thing...it should be kept out of sport!!!

Well it would appear nationalists will now declare for the republic. This means less players for NI to choose from which will probably mean results decline. ROI may also improve. Should the trend continue kids from Unionist backgrounds may decide they want to play for a better team and declare for the ROI. Hard to speculate though really.

Paul4As wrote: »

As for a backlash in Northern Ireland over players who choose to play for our southern neighbours...what are you getting at??? ...as a Northern Ireland supporter I wish them all the best...just like the IFA does for Daniel Kearns!!! We don't want him if his heart is not in it!!!

I mean are kids from nationalist backgrounds going to be given less attention and training in youth teams, or simply not selected. It must be frustrating for people in the IFA to dedicate time to players only for them to declare for the roi. That's why I suggested FAI should compensate when it happens

pickarooney

Northern Ireland is welcome to select any player who adopts British nationality, e.g. Bolton's Fabrice Muamba, but it still comes down to the IFA needing to make playing for the north an enticing prospect.

Paul4As

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Well it would appear nationalists will now declare for the republic. This means less players for NI to choose from which will probably mean results decline. ROI may also improve. Should the trend continue kids from Unionist backgrounds may decide they want to play for a better team and declare for the ROI. Hard to speculate though really.

I mean are kids from nationalist backgrounds going to be given less attention and training in youth teams, or simply not selected. It must be frustrating for people in the IFA to dedicate time to players only for them to declare for the roi. That's why I suggested FAI should compensate when it happens

I don't think it will cause results to decline for Northern Ireland...or cause results to improve for the Republic of Ireland!!! Just because you have a bigger pool to draw from doesn't mean your team is better...it helps...but you only have to look at England...huge population and they love their football...but what have they won...one World Cup in 1966!!!

Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland will still be up against it to qualify for finals.

As for Unionists declaring for the Republic...just because they may be the better team...I don't think that is what international fooball should be about...playing for "the better team"...should be more about pride of where you were born or you have family roots!!! Whether you lose or win!!!

As for nationalist kids getting less attention from the IFA...a few lines from what Raymond Kennedy from the IFA said on Friday after the result:

Raymond Kennedy, President of the Irish FA said: “I am disappointed by today’s decision but we will continue to develop our very successful and wide range of ‘Football for All’ and community programmes in the areas of grassroots, domestic and International football to ensure that anyone available to play for Northern Ireland will want to do so.”

Very good to hear!!! I think the best way to combat a possible exodus to down south is to show all the young players in Northern Ireland that we will put the effort in to develop them no matter what nationality you choose to be...after all they are children who only care about football, not politics or nationalities at that age...make the emphasis be on playing for your country and solely the football aspect...not on the politics which is involved with the unfair decision made on Friday past...which unfortunately the IFA have to live with!!!

Onwards and upwards for the GAWA!!!;)

Coillte_Bhoy

What does GAWA mean?

Beast ASI

Green and White Army!!

pickarooney

Is it 'Green and White Army'? Better match than anything I could find on google in any case.

LeeroyJones

pickarooney wrote: »

Is it 'Green and White Army'? Better match than anything I could find on google in any case.

Either that or Paul4As is trying to tell us he's a big fan of the Greek American Writers Association!

The Rooster

Paul4As wrote: »

We don't sing any bigot songs at our games by the way...family atmosphere...you should come along and see for yourself!!! Though...with the picture you seem to have in your mind of the GAWA...I don't think you'll be taking that offer up!!!

We can't help what are flag is or our national anthem is!!!...been like that for years!!! But we have taken sectarianism out of match days...which is a huge step!!!

Lots of nonsense there, particularly re the national anthem and the obvious comparison to Scotland and Wales who chose to have anthems that emphasise their Scottishness and Welshness - unlike the North who use an anthem that alienates all of a nationalist persuasion - there are a number of alternatives that could be used that would be "inclusive".

But don't take my word for it - here's a post from a Northern Ireland supporter on the OWC forum:

The IFA and supporters need to take a long look at themselves, why take a Union flag to a game as opposed to a NI flag or just a cross of St Pats. What is the reasoning behind it? Same with shouting No Surrender during GSTQ. Why? If Britishness is so important why haven't we got a campaign for a All British team? As for GSTQ rather than a NI sporting anthem, well we have had pages on that. Take it even deeper, the NI flag used proudly on this website......

We can't continue to go on about how wonderful Football for All is and polish our awards. If the parents of a young catholic player, with a decision to make, had been standing anywhere near me in recent home and away games in Europe, I wouldn't blame them at all if they made use of the new Newry by pass!

Sad but true.

briany

Well I agree that it is absolutely necessary for N.I. to adopt a new anthem and flag. Ultimately, no matter how inclusive they try to make football up there, those two things will always stick in the throats of potential talent from a nationalist background. The bad taste will be diminished as opposed to darker days but sadly it will be there nonetheless ,niggling away. But while I can see an anthem easily enough, the flag is a different story because it has to be tasteful and represent both sides of the community equally and that'll be a hard job to balance it just right while keeping objections to a minimum.

From what I read, I'd like to believe the "NO SURRENDER" are a marginal bunch of cranks who are hated by all the rest of the supporters. If not, they are a big part of the problem, as big as the FAI. Paul, if you could tell us in your own words what kind of presence these people have (if any) at Windsor Park and how are they treated by regular supporters generally?

Carlos_Ray

The IFA were idiots for bringing this to the court of arbitration. It just highlighted how little they actually knew about the GFA and the status of Nationalists in Northern Ireland.

The idea that someone with an Irish passport shouldn't be allowed to represent their country is clearly ridiculous. The vast majority of my friends from the 6 counties (nationalist) have only ever supported Ireland when it comes to soccer. Its their team and their country as much as mine.

N. Ireland never represented them, why should they be forced to play for a team steeped in sectarian bigotry? The IFA is a small minded organisation and unless it clears up its act significantly the future of the Northern Ireland football team will be in doubt. They seem to ignore that "Northern Ireland" contains two communites, one of which was never welcomed in windsor park.

Their loss is our gain.

Paul4As

The Rooster wrote: »

Lots of nonsense there, particularly re the national anthem and the obvious comparison to Scotland and Wales who chose to have anthems that emphasise their Scottishness and Welshness - unlike the North who use an anthem that alienates all of a nationalist persuasion - there are a number of alternatives that could be used that would be "inclusive".

But don't take my word for it - here's a post from a Northern Ireland supporter on the OWC forum:

The IFA and supporters need to take a long look at themselves, why take a Union flag to a game as opposed to a NI flag or just a cross of St Pats. What is the reasoning behind it? Same with shouting No Surrender during GSTQ. Why? If Britishness is so important why haven't we got a campaign for a All British team? As for GSTQ rather than a NI sporting anthem, well we have had pages on that. Take it even deeper, the NI flag used proudly on this website......

We can't continue to go on about how wonderful Football for All is and polish our awards. If the parents of a young catholic player, with a decision to make, had been standing anywhere near me in recent home and away games in Europe, I wouldn't blame them at all if they made use of the new Newry by pass!

Sad but true.

I don't bring any flag to a Northern Ireland game...though if I was to it would be the Red Hand of Ulster...though I think some people may find that offensive!!! :rolleyes:
As for GSTQ...I don't know how many years that has been the NI football team athem...maybe they could do the same as they do in Dublin for rugby games (Irish anthem then Ireland's Calling)...that is play GSTQ then a footballing anthem for Northern Ireland...with the football anthem played at away games!!! I am even up for not playing God Save The Queen at all...wouldn't bother me!!! Supporting the Northern Ireland football team isn't about the union...it is about our wee country!!!
As for the "no surrender chant"...only a minority shout it...probably about 2% of the ground...it is getting less audible as the years go by!!!
Where I sit in Windsor Park for Northern Ireland...I don't even think I hear any swearing...and it is not even the family enclosure!!!

Paul4As

briany wrote: »

From what I read, I'd like to believe the "NO SURRENDER" are a marginal bunch of cranks who are hated by all the rest of the supporters. If not, they are a big part of the problem, as big as the FAI. Paul, if you could tell us in your own words what kind of presence these people have (if any) at Windsor Park and how are they treated by regular supporters generally?

The No Surrender brigade as I said in my previous post is getting smaller as the years go by...mostly congregated in the West Stand...which is the one behind the goal...it is the few who have their cans of lager on route to the ground!!!
I don't sit in that stand....I sit in the North Stand which is the one opposite the main camera!!!
Rome was never built in a day...and the IFA have done a remarkable job with the situation they found themselves in 10 years ago!!!
Hopefully the IFA continue to keep up the good work with kids and adults from both sides of the community!!! And do not get distracted by the FAI who through this Irish passport rule are targeting only catholics.

Paul4As

Carlos_Ray wrote: »

The idea that someone with an Irish passport shouldn't be allowed to represent their country is clearly ridiculous. The vast majority of my friends from the 6 counties (nationalist) have only ever supported Ireland when it comes to soccer. Its their team and their country as much as mine.

FIFA see Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland quite rightly as two different countries!!! It is a fact they they are two different countries...although they have very strong connections and will hopefully continue to have very strong connections!!!
The IFA where only trying to prevent players who have no family roots down south from playing for the Republic...they want them to play for the country they have roots in...Northern Ireland.
Irish and British passport holders can play for Northern Ireland...although us supporters see our players as Northern Irish...it is not about politics with us!!!

Paul4As

Carlos_Ray wrote: »

N. Ireland never represented them, why should they be forced to play for a team steeped in sectarian bigotry? The IFA is a small minded organisation and unless it clears up its act significantly the future of the Northern Ireland football team will be in doubt. They seem to ignore that "Northern Ireland" contains two communites, one of which was never welcomed in windsor park.

Please see the biggest load of rubbish going above!!!
Rubbish probably learnt of a friend of a friend who has never been to a recent Northern Ireland game...and who probably doesn't want to know anything thing about the IFA or Northern Ireland international team!!!
The Northern Ireland football team will never be in doubt...though with the greed of the FAI it could possibly turn in to a 100% protestant team of players...supported by 100% protestant supporters...which is sad...just when you think sport and football can bring together both communities...the FAI use a political agreement to separate the communities!!!
I'm sure the IFA will rise above it though!!!

Pro. F

Paul4As wrote: »

FIFA see Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland quite rightly as two different countries!!! It is a fact they they are two different countries...although they have very strong connections and will hopefully continue to have very strong connections!!!
The IFA where only trying to prevent players who have no family roots down south from playing for the Republic...they want them to play for the country they have roots in...Northern Ireland.

Paul4As wrote: »

The Northern Ireland football team will never be in doubt...though with the greed of the FAI it could possibly turn in to a 100% protestant team of players...supported by 100% protestant supporters...which is sad...just when you think sport and football can bring together both communities...the FAI use a political agreement to separate the communities!!!
I'm sure the IFA will rise above it though!!!

The nationalists in the North have the legal right to identify themselves with the republic. The Good Friday Agreement gave them that right. It doesn't matter how FIFA or the IFA view the two countries. The international agreement, from the political sphere, supersedes whatever opinions they may have. CAS was only ever going to rule this way because they are sensible enough to have an understanding of the particular political relationship that has been established between the two countries and the importance and fairness of upholding that relationship.

The IFA, for whatever reason, were trying to prevent nationalist players from exercising the rights that they have been given under the GFA. The CAS, rightly, has told them to cop the fùck on and we should all be happy that the GFA has not been compromised.

Edit: Also, your portrayal of this situation as being driven solely by FAI meddling is particular offensive. You are completely failing to acknowledge the sense of identity of many people from the nationalist community.

Paul4As wrote: »

Irish and British passport holders can play for Northern Ireland...although us supporters see our players as Northern Irish...it is not about politics with us!!!

It is about politics with you. You see your players as Northern Irish - NI is a political entity. Some people in the North don't identify with the same political entity as you and want to identify with and represent the Republic instead. It would be the decent thing if you would acknowledge that instead of pretending that their wishes have no justification and that the NI football team is some sort of inclusive utopia. It may well become that in the future but there is a long way to go yet.

Paul4As

Pro. F wrote: »

The nationalists in the North have the legal right to identify themselves with the republic. The Good Friday Agreement gave them that right. It doesn't matter how FIFA or the IFA view the two countries. The international agreement, from the political sphere, supersedes whatever opinions they may have. CAS was only ever going to rule this way because they are sensible enough to have an understanding of the particular political relationship that has been established between the two countries and the importance and fairness of upholding that relationship.

The IFA, for whatever reason, were trying to prevent nationalist players from exercising the rights that they have been given under the GFA. The CAS, rightly, has told them to cop the fùck on and we should all be happy that the GFA has not been compromised.

Edit: Also, your portrayal of this situation as being driven solely by FAI meddling is particular offensive. You are completely failing to acknowledge the sense of identity of many people from the nationalist community.


It is about politics with you. You see your players as Northern Irish - NI is a political entity. Some people in the North don't identify with the same political entity as you and want to identify with and represent the Republic instead. It would be the decent thing if you would acknowledge that instead of pretending that their wishes have no justification and that the NI football team is some sort of inclusive utopia. It may well become that in the future but there is a long way to go yet.

Maybe FIFA need to change their ruling on player eligibility so...give better clarification on the matter. That is why the IFA took them down the legal root...as they (FIFA) themselves couldn't even clarify the situation!!!

As for "it is all about politics with me"...it is all about politics with the FAI...I don't care whether Northern Ireland players are British or Irish...neither do the IFA...it seems to me the FAI are targeting players from Northern Ireland who consider themselves Irish!!!

Let me clarify something as well...I see the players on the football field as Northern Irish (after all the team they are playing for is Northern Ireland - quite a reasonable abbreviation)...they may well see themselves as being British or Irish or even neither...just footballers who want to play for their country!!! I don't care what they see themselves as...as long as they give their all for the shirt and their country!!!

I do not force my political views on anybody with regards sport...and in particular football!!!

Keep politics out of football!!! Me, you and everybody!!!

On that important note...I'm out of this thread!!!

briany

So in summation :

1. Players from the north are entitled to play for either team under the terms of the GFA provided they have a passport for that country and presumably have not yet declared either way. That is their right under current laws and FIFA regulation and the way to sort this is to have an agreement between the IFA and FAI that developing players should declare by say age 16 as to their international intentions. This is a late enough age in local development terms but asking them to declare at 11 would be a bit much.

2. N.I. needs to change it's anthem and flag for it's football team as it's a major barrier to it's football for all objectives and if people there can't see that then it's their own ignorance. Some nationalist players just will not stand under it and others still will use it as a handy justification for declaring for the ROI.

3. An all Ireland team, while a tantalising prospect cannot happen. Too much conflict in identities and where would they headquarter the organisation?

Just trying to put a line under this......

Fr Tod Umptious

briany wrote: »

So in summation :

1. Players from the north are entitled to play for either team under the terms of the GFA provided they have a passport for that country and presumably have not yet declared either way. That is their right under current laws and FIFA regulation and the way to sort this is to have an agreement between the IFA and FAI that developing players should declare by say age 16 as to their international intentions. This is a late enough age in local development terms but asking them to declare at 11 would be a bit much.

What is the current 'oldest' age one can play a competitive game for one nation before being locked into that nation ?

If the IFA/FAI came to an agreement to use a lower age limit then the FAI would have the ability to challenge it at some stage as it would be lower than the FIFA regulation, thus causing another s**t storm.

briany

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

What is the current 'oldest' age one can play a competitive game for one nation before being locked into that nation ?

If the IFA/FAI came to an agreement to use a lower age limit then the FAI would have the ability to challenge it at some stage as it would be lower than the FIFA regulation, thus causing another s**t storm.

Well it could be a gentleman's agreement so to speak. A big part of this row appears to be that players are defecting after having represented N.I. at some age level and that's being seen as a sign of intent to represent N.I. for the duration of their international careers and they feel betrayed that these players would defect and animosity toward the FAI who they see as encouraging this. Most reasonable minded N.I. fans will accept, if begrudgingly, that it is player's rights to do this but they just want to know where they stand so they don't put false hopes in a talented prospect. I don't think FIFA will change their nationality/age of declaration regulations over the dispute that is going on here so there needs to be some sort of compromise, the FAI is getting alot of bad will from sections of the N.I. community and alot of scottish fans over McCarthy/McGeady. This Celtic Cup next year looks like it could be a bit of a charged affair......

Carlos_Ray

Paul4As wrote: »

FIFA see Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland quite rightly as two different countries!!! It is a fact they they are two different countries...although they have very strong connections and will hopefully continue to have very strong connections!!!
The IFA where only trying to prevent players who have no family roots down south from playing for the Republic...they want them to play for the country they have roots in...Northern Ireland.
Irish and British passport holders can play for Northern Ireland...although us supporters see our players as Northern Irish...it is not about politics with us!!!

Thats complete and utter rubbish. Your nationality is dictated by your legal rights and passport, not just the jurisdiction that you were born in. You cannot stop a holder of an Irish passport representing Ireland even if he was born on the MOON.

If you are familiar with the GFA you will realise that people born in Northern Ireland have a right to choose their legal nationality. If they choose Irish they are as Irish as a person born in Dublin and they are entitled to all that entails (including representing your country). Why can't you undertstand that? It has been explained clearly on these boards and in numerous courts.

Your problem is that you can't accept the reality of the GFA. These people now hold REPUBLIC of IRELAND passports. It really is a non-issue. Get over it.

Pro. F

Paul4As wrote: »

Maybe FIFA need to change their ruling on player eligibility so...give better clarification on the matter. That is why the IFA took them down the legal root...as they (FIFA) themselves couldn't even clarify the situation!!!

Bollocks were the IFA only looking for clarification. They took legal action because they wanted to stop players from the North declaring for the Republic. You said so yourself in an earlier post.

It's not in any way surprising if FIFA's rules on eligibility are not sufficiently clear (or maybe even illegal, I can't remember) in this case. FIFA is a shambles of an organisation and the finer details of international peace agreements are probably way beyond their comprehension.

Paul4As wrote: »

As for "it is all about politics with me"...it is all about politics with the FAI...I don't care whether Northern Ireland players are British or Irish...neither do the IFA...it seems to me the FAI are targeting players from Northern Ireland who consider themselves Irish!!!

Of course the FAI are going to try and induce people who are eligible and who consider themselves Irish - people who in fact are Irish - to play for the National team. Why shouldn't they?

The IFA have a right to be a bit pissed off since they've put in the effort of the youth development, but as the CAS has ruled, they have no legal right to try and stop it. They also clearly have no moral right to interfere since they make their football team such an unwelcoming prospect for Nationalists.

Paul4As wrote: »

Let me clarify something as well...I see the players on the football field as Northern Irish (after all the team they are playing for is Northern Ireland - quite a reasonable abbreviation)...they may well see themselves as being British or Irish or even neither...just footballers who want to play for their country!!! I don't care what they see themselves as...as long as they give their all for the shirt and their country!!!

Are you in any way aware that some people in the North don't feel an association with NI as their country? They want to play international football for the team that they feel an association with - Northern Ireland isn't that team.

They will give their all for the shirt and their country, not your country.

Paul4As wrote: »

I do not force my political views on anybody with regards sport...and in particular football!!!

Keep politics out of football!!! Me, you and everybody!!!

On that important note...I'm out of this thread!!!

Of course you want to keep the politics out of this discussion. Because the fact is that some people who live in the North have the political right to an Irish passport and to play for the Republic. You and the IFA obviously have a serious problem with that.

ArmaniJeanss

Carlos_Ray wrote: »

Thats complete and utter rubbish. Your nationality is dictated by your legal rights and passport, not just the jurisdiction that you were born in. You cannot stop a holder of an Irish passport representing Ireland even if he was born on the MOON.

If you are familiar with the GFA you will realise that people born in Northern Ireland have a right to choose their legal nationality. If they choose Irish they are as Irish as a person born in Dublin and they are entitled to all that entails (including representing your country). Why can't you undertstand that? It has been explained clearly on these boards and in numerous courts.

Your problem is that you can't accept the reality of the GFA. These people now hold REPUBLIC of IRELAND passports. It really is a non-issue. Get over it.

Theres a lot wrong with this post, the main one being the passport issue.
Having a passport, or being entitled to a passport does not entitle you to represent that country.
FIFA made/clarified this rule change years ago to stop Brazilian players being fasttracked passports by the likes of Qatar and Togo (the equivalent of your example of being born on the MOON but wishing to represent Ireland).
FIFA do however examine on a case by case basis whether the player has "clear connection to that country" (the country they wish to play for).
And they have come down on the FAI/ROI side of the argument each time.
However merely having the passport does not confer automatic entitlement to be allowed play for ROI.

Also there would be nothing to stop FIFA changing their rule to make it strictly 'country of your birth or parents birth' (though they obviously have no intention of doing this).

Finally an interesting point is that the football authorities do not consider themselves bound by CAS - they take CAS verdicts on board but have previously rejected them.( Specifically the Gibraltar FA who 'won' their case at CAS entitling them to UEFA membership but are still in exile).

Carlos_Ray

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Theres a lot wrong with this post, the main one being the passport issue.)

Just because you disagree doesn't mean its wrong. And you're talking through your hole in relation to passport issue. Comparing Brazillians nationalised in the middle east to Irish in Northern Ireland betrays a total lack of understanding of the political, social and legal realities of Northern Ireland. Irish in the North are not "nationalised" they simply are "Irish."

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Having a passport, or being entitled to a passport does not entitle you to represent that country.

The court of arbitration, and most of the world would disagree.

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

FIFA made/clarified this rule change years ago to stop Brazilian players being fasttracked passports by the likes of Qatar and Togo (the equivalent of your example of being born on the MOON but wishing to represent Ireland)..)

This is a red herring. Firslty they have not made any such rule change. Secondly, you are talking about nationalising players. Irish people born into the 6 counties are citizens of the Irish republic if they choose. You really need to read up on the ramifications of the GFA. The recent ruling has just YET AGAIN confirmed that what I (and most others here, the international community and FIFA) have already said. You're wrong! Just get over it and move on.

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

FIFA do however examine on a case by case basis whether the player has "clear connection to that country" (the country they wish to play for).
And they have come down on the FAI/ROI side of the argument each time.
However merely having the passport does not confer automatic entitlement to be allowed play for ROI.)

Evidently it does. I sound like a broken record here.. but please PLEASE just read the good friday agreement which you have so much trouble with. Irish people in the North now DO have a clear connection to the Republic as recognised by International law! Thats the whole point. Most unionists either refuse/don't understand this vital point!

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Also there would be nothing to stop FIFA changing their rule to make it strictly 'country of your birth or parents birth' (though they obviously have no intention of doing this).)

This will never happen but even if it did, it still wouldn't affect the status of Irish players born in the 6 counties. They are in a unique legal position. A position that everybody seems to understand, Ireland, England, FIFA, the world! The only people that can't grasp this fact are the IFA and their fans. Just get over it. You have lost all your appeals because...guess what you're WRONG.

Its not often you have literally tonnes of legal support for an argument on boards. Its nice.

Don't worry though, you'll still probably get the Irish players that won't make it into the Irish team. They'd do a good enough job for you.

ArmaniJeanss

Carlos_Ray wrote: »

......
......
......
......
Just get over it. You have lost all your appeals because...guess what you're WRONG.
......
Don't worry though, you'll still probably get the Irish players that won't make it into the Irish team. They'd do a good enough job for you.

Interesting that you assume that I'm Northern Irish, a fan of the IFA, and am against this ruling, merely because I pointed out all the flaws in your argument (stuff like 'it doesn't matter if they were born on the MOON so long as they have an irish passport'?)
I'm (Southern) Irish and would be pro-FAI on this issue, and am thrilled they 'won' (on the selfish grounds of I'm happy to see the quality of ROI player increase).

Fr Tod Umptious

Carlos_Ray wrote: »

Just because you disagree doesn't mean its wrong. And you're talking through your hole in relation to passport issue. Comparing Brazillians nationalised in the middle east to Irish in Northern Ireland betrays a total lack of understanding of the political, social and legal realities of Northern Ireland. Irish in the North are not "nationalised" they simply are "Irish."

The court of arbitration, and most of the world would disagree.

This is a red herring. Firslty they have not made any such rule change. Secondly, you are talking about nationalising players. Irish people born into the 6 counties are citizens of the Irish republic if they choose. You really need to read up on the ramifications of the GFA. The recent ruling has just YET AGAIN confirmed that what I (and most others here, the international community and FIFA) have already said. You're wrong! Just get over it and move on.

Evidently it does. I sound like a broken record here.. but please PLEASE just read the good friday agreement which you have so much trouble with. Irish people in the North now DO have a clear connection to the Republic as recognised by International law! Thats the whole point. Most unionists either refuse/don't understand this vital point!

This will never happen but even if it did, it still wouldn't affect the status of Irish players born in the 6 counties. They are in a unique legal position. A position that everybody seems to understand, Ireland, England, FIFA, the world! The only people that can't grasp this fact are the IFA and their fans. Just get over it. You have lost all your appeals because...guess what you're WRONG.

Its not often you have literally tonnes of legal support for an argument on boards. Its nice.

Don't worry though, you'll still probably get the Irish players that won't make it into the Irish team. They'd do a good enough job for you.

Goodness what a rant

I'm sorry to burst your bubble here but FIFA do take more that what type of passport you hold into account when deciding eligibility of international players. The poster you decided to 'assault' mentioned the Qatar and Togo cases

In the IFA/FAI case it seems that they have allowed an exception, and the CAS have agreed with that line of thinking, but that does not mean that FAI will not change eligibility rules again to say for example you must be born or have a parent born in that FIFA association to represent that association thus leaving poor Sheamus McKeeiver from Dungiven Co Derry with no choice but to play for NI.

Carlos_Ray

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Goodness what a rant

I'm sorry to burst your bubble here but FIFA do take more that what type of passport you hold into account when deciding eligibility of international players. The poster you decided to 'assault' mentioned the Qatar and Togo cases

In the IFA/FAI case it seems that they have allowed an exception, and the CAS have agreed with that line of thinking, but that does not mean that FAI will not change eligibility rules again to say for example you must be born or have a parent born in that FIFA association to represent that association thus leaving poor Sheamus McKeeiver from Dungiven Co Derry with no choice but to play for NI.

Again I am 100% positive this cannot happen in Ireland's case. The GFA is the reason.An Irish person (Born in NI) now has a "right" to be a full blown Republic of Ireland citizen from birth. Thats a fact. If Fifa decided to deny the right for such a person to represent their country (Which they won't) they would be taken to court and the decision would be easily overturned. This is why the FAI were so confident they would win the case.

The case is water-tight. People are comparing other countries to NI, but the comparisons are misleading as NI is in a unique political situation and people should remember that.

Personally I am delighted that Irish people in the north are finally seeing the benefit of the GFA.

Fr Tod Umptious

Carlos_Ray wrote: »

Personally I am delighted that Irish people in the north are finally seeing the benefit of the GFA.

Your post had a lot of merit prior to this statement

The GFA has delivered far more for the people of NI, and the whole island, than just giving a tiny proportion of it's inhabitants the choice to play at international level for the ROI or NI

bobbysands81

Paul4As wrote: »

If people who are born in Northern Ireland and whose parents and grandparents are from Northern Ireland...if they can play for the Republic because they have an Irish passport...I wonder will that therefore allow people who are born in England and whose parents and grandparents are from England play for Northern Ireland as they have a British passport???

They've ALWAYS been allowed do that... but there's an agreement between the IFA, SFA, WFA and the EFA that they don't do that.

Paul4As wrote: »

The Good Friday Agreement was a political thing...it should be kept out of sport!!!

Good one!!! Your nationality determines what country you can play for... but you don't think nationalisty should come into International soccer???!!! Brilliant!!!

Paul4As wrote: »

a British player from England should be allowed to play for Northern Ireland!!!

Once again... they are, but your own FA has agreed not to pick such players. Get onto them and moan about it and see what they say.

Paul4As wrote: »

We can't help what are flag is or our national anthem is!!!...been like that for years!!! But we have taken sectarianism out of match days...which is a huge step!!!

You have completely contradicted yourself there...

Paul4As wrote: »

If they do allow it in the case of Northern Ireland and the Republic...then they should do it in the case of Northern Ireland and other countries from mainland UK!!! As Northern Irish people can hold British or Irish passports!!!

I think we know the answer to this... they can but your FA prevents it from happening.

grenache

Paul4As wrote: »

I'm just saying that as Northern Ireland is part of the UK...then going on the passport...a British player from England should be allowed to play for Northern Ireland!!!
Perfectly logical thinking!!!;)

Irish people, whether they be North or South, are all connected. They are one race. Hence the unique position of Northern Ireland. English, Scottish and Welsh are all different races, distinct from the Irish and are recognised as different nations under FIFA's laws. Therefore, why should, for example, an English player, with no blood-ties what so ever to Northern Ireland be allowed play for them? It would make a complete mockery of the eligibility system.

Fr Tod Umptious

grenache wrote: »

Irish people, whether they be North or South, are all connected. They are one race. Hence the unique position of Northern Ireland. English, Scottish and Welsh are all different races, distinct from the Irish and are recognised as different nations under FIFA's laws. Therefore, why should, for example, an English player, with no blood-ties what so ever to Northern Ireland be allowed play for them? It would make a complete mockery of the eligibility system.

Possibly the most idiotic post I have ever read on boards.ie

What the hell has 'race' got to do with it.

LeeroyJones

I think what is being tried to be said is that a person from Tralee is as Irish as a person from Dundalk, who is as Irish as someone from Salthill who is as Irish as someone from Coleraine. So why should the Irishman from Coleraine not have the right to represent the same national side as his compatriots.
Obviously, not everyone in NI will consider themselves Irish, and they are 100% entitled not to identify with Ireland if that's how they feel and it's clear many feel this way.
However, many many people do identify with Ireland and thankfully, in my view, FIFA and CAS uphold their right as Irish citizens.

In the case suggested that a man born and bred in England, to English parents, to English grandparents should be entitled to represent NI on the basis of holding a British passport. I am quite confident that that is actually allowed, but as stated before-there is an agreement between the FA's of NI, England, Scotland and Wales.

However, an Englishman who represents NI is nowhere near a parallel to an Irishman from NI playing for the ROI. If that's the argument, it is a very fragile, paper thin argument.

briany

Here's a related point I meant to bring up :

Some followers on OWC forum are saying what they'd do if the worst happened for them and the N.I. team ceased to exist. The choices being lose interest, support an amalgamation of either IFA into FAI or FAI into IFA or support another UK team. On the subject of amalgamation, many N.I. supporters are against it if it were the IFA into the FAI but some are more open to the idea of the IFA being the all Ireland association? What I want to know is how much better would that situation be really than the FAI being the UI association? There would still be the possibility of socio-political machinations and accusations tearing the organisation down from within regardless of whether the HQ was in Dublin or Belfast.

Fr Tod Umptious

briany wrote: »

Here's a related point I meant to bring up :

Some followers on OWC forum are saying what they'd do if the worst happened for them and the N.I. team ceased to exist. The choices being lose interest, support an amalgamation of either IFA into FAI or FAI into IFA or support another UK team. On the subject of amalgamation, many N.I. supporters are against it if it were the IFA into the FAI but some are more open to the idea of the IFA being the all Ireland association? What I want to know is how much better would that situation be really than the FAI being the UI association? There would still be the possibility of socio-political machinations and accusations tearing the organisation down from within regardless of whether the HQ was in Dublin or Belfast.

well the IFA are the original soccer association on this island, the FAI are a breakaway group, so if they were to merge back then the FAI should merge into the IFA and not vice versa

briany

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

well the IFA are the original soccer association on this island, the FAI are a breakaway group, so if they were to merge back then the FAI should merge into the IFA and not vice versa

I'm aware of that. I've seen the FAI be referred to as the breakaway or splinter association before, that they shouldn't really exist and so on. But I don't know if a situation where the FAI went into the IFA would be ideal or vice versa, I just foresee too much conflict there. Another thing is why aren't the IFA called the NIFA? IFA would imply that they claim to represent "Ireland", however FIFA designates the republic side as "Ireland" (not republic of Ireland which is a description) and the Northern Irish side as "Northern Ireland" so if any association should be called the IFA it's the FAI and the IFA called the NIFA. So while the IFA is the original association and I suppose that must entitle them to continue using the name, IFA still seems to imply that the association represents the entire island which it does not.

Paul4As

LeeroyJones wrote: »

I think what is being tried to be said is that a person from Tralee is as Irish as a person from Dundalk, who is as Irish as someone from Salthill who is as Irish as someone from Coleraine. So why should the Irishman from Coleraine not have the right to represent the same national side as his compatriots.
Obviously, not everyone in NI will consider themselves Irish, and they are 100% entitled not to identify with Ireland if that's how they feel and it's clear many feel this way.
However, many many people do identify with Ireland and thankfully, in my view, FIFA and CAS uphold their right as Irish citizens.

I think you are missing the point altogether...playing for Northern Ireland has nothing to do with being Irish or British...as you can be either or both to play for Northern Ireland...it is about playing for the country you were born in or where your family was born in.
Also...playing for Northern Ireland has nothing to do with unionism or nationalism...that is a very important statement that I think some people in this thread are having difficulty getting their heads around!!!

Paul4As

LeeroyJones wrote: »

However, an Englishman who represents NI is nowhere near a parallel to an Irishman from NI playing for the ROI. If that's the argument, it is a very fragile, paper thin argument.

I think that opinion really depends on the person!!!
I'm sure their are plenty of people in Northern Ireland who would see England or in particular Scotland (Ulster Scots) closer in links to Northern Ireland than the Republic...same money, similar laws, same overall government, Britishness, same TV stations, being part of the United Kingdom etc.
On the flipside I'm sure there are plenty of people in Northern Ireland who feel closer to the Republic...due to the geographics, the nature of the people, Irishness, music, the history!!

Paul4As

LeeroyJones wrote: »

In the case suggested that a man born and bred in England, to English parents, to English grandparents should be entitled to represent NI on the basis of holding a British passport. I am quite confident that that is actually allowed, but as stated before-there is an agreement between the FA's of NI, England, Scotland and Wales.

You wonder why the IFA and FAI could not have come to some such gentleman's agreement...sport is a good medium in encouraging the mixing of the main two communities in Northern Ireland...spliting players in to possible Irish and British camps (which has in the past had nothing to do with Northern Ireland players) due to their passports will provide difficulties for the IFA in the future...but they have promised to carry on with their good work in all communities with their "Football For All" project...so they deserve applaud!!!

LeeroyJones

Paul4As wrote: »

I think that opinion really depends on the person!!!
I'm sure their are plenty of people in Northern Ireland who would see England or in particular Scotland (Ulster Scots) closer in links to Northern Ireland than the Republic...same money, similar laws, same overall government, Britishness, same TV stations, United Kingdom etc.
On the flipside I'm sure there are plenty of people in Northern Ireland who feel closer to the Republic...due to the geographics, the nature of the people, Irishness, music, the history!!

You use the word links, and you are quite right- Many people of the 6 counties do have strong links with their British counterparts. The point is that an Irishman in NI, doesn't have links with the the Republic, an Irishman in NI is AS Irish as any Irishman in the Republic. That's the distinct difference between Darron Gibson playing for ROI and a hypothetical scenario where Jack Wilshire declares for NI.

Paul4As

briany wrote: »

Here's a related point I meant to bring up :

Some followers on OWC forum are saying what they'd do if the worst happened for them and the N.I. team ceased to exist. The choices being lose interest, support an amalgamation of either IFA into FAI or FAI into IFA or support another UK team. On the subject of amalgamation, many N.I. supporters are against it if it were the IFA into the FAI but some are more open to the idea of the IFA being the all Ireland association? What I want to know is how much better would that situation be really than the FAI being the UI association? There would still be the possibility of socio-political machinations and accusations tearing the organisation down from within regardless of whether the HQ was in Dublin or Belfast.

I've been on the OWC forum and I think they are all taking the mickey over this CAS ruling with regards the Green and WHite Army failing to exist on the international front.
As a Northern Ireland supporter I could never get behind an all Ireland team or a UK team...simple fact is I don't support the Republic, England, Scotland or Wales. The only one out of them I like to see doing well is Scotland.
I would focus solely in on supporting my club sides if Northern Ireland was amalgamated.
Come to think of it though...with all this Euro zone caper...who is to say in another 20 years there could be a single European team???...or even no more international football with club football taking over due to the financial side of things!!!

Paul4As

LeeroyJones wrote: »

You use the word links, and you are quite right- Many people of the 6 counties do have strong links with their British counterparts. The point is that an Irishman in NI, doesn't have links with the the Republic, an Irishman in NI is AS Irish as any Irishman in the Republic. That's the distinct difference between Darron Gibson playing for ROI and a hypothetical scenario where Jack Wilshire declares for NI.

A British man in England is as British as any British man in Northern Ireland...if Jack Wilshire considers himself British then he is just as much British as someone in Northern Ireland who sees themselves as British!!!
I think we will just have to agree to disagree!!!
Though...as mentioned previous...playing for Northern Ireland is not about whether you consider yourself Irish or British...we want you to play and support us no matter what religion or nationality you chose to be!!!
Keep politics out of football!!!

LeeroyJones

Paul4As wrote: »

A British man in England is as British as any British man in Northern Ireland...if Jack Wilshire considers himself British then he is just as much British as someone in Northern Ireland who sees themselves as British!!!
I think we will just have to agree to disagree!!!
Though...as mentioned previous...playing for Northern Ireland is not about whether you consider yourself Irish or British...we want you to play and support us no matter what religion or nationality you chose to be!!!
Keep politics out of football!!!

I certainly do agree that a British person in NI is as British as anybody else who identifies as British. But NI does not represent Britain as such, nor does Wales, Scotland or England, they represent themselves independent of their British counterparts. This is a decision made by those involved who are entitled to create a Team GB if they so wish. But that's another story.

I certainly do agree with leaving politics aside and I do hope that your sentiment is shared amongst all other NI supporters soon, I say soon because I would be naive to think it is the case now, but if it is heading in that direction which you suggest it is, then-more power to you.

Paul4As

LeeroyJones wrote: »

I certainly do agree that a British person in NI is as British as anybody else who identifies as British. But NI does not represent Britain as such, nor does Wales, Scotland or England, they represent themselves independent of their British counterparts. This is a decision made by those involved who are entitled to create a Team GB if they so wish. But that's another story.

I certainly do agree with leaving politics aside and I do hope that your sentiment is shared amongst all other NI supporters soon, I say soon because I would be naive to think it is the case now, but if it is heading in that direction which you suggest it is, then-more power to you.

I don't understand your first paragraph??? Though I think we have talked enough about the issue without agreement so...no need to explain the comments as I would probably end up even more bewildered!!!

My sentiments with regards leaving politics aside is already shared by the vast majority of Northern Ireland supporters and 100% by IFA...I don't think it is at all naive to not think that it is left aside now!!!
The IFA have even impressed Neil Lennon a few years back:

http://www.community-relations.org.uk/about-us/news/item/95/football-for-all-awards/
Lennon was quick to heap praise on the Northern Ireland Fans, and in particular Football For All Outstanding Achievement Award Winner Stewart MacAfee, for the work they have carried out to create a more inclusive atmosphere at international games:
“People like Stewart are the Unsung Heroes who have been brave enough to challenge sectarianism and who have actively created a more fun, safe and family orientated atmosphere at international games. Fans like Stewart have made the atmosphere at Northern Ireland football games in recent years the envy of Fans across not only Europe but World Football. From a personal point of view I would like to thank them for their efforts.”

You get the odd prick on both the Northern Ireland support and the Republic of Ireland support north of the border who still have serious issues though!!!
Why don't you come up to Windsor to take in an international game??? It would be better to base your opinions on the atmosphere at a Green and White Army match through personal experience than from a friend of a friend or from an incident 10 years ago!!!

Pro. F

Sorry to resurrect this thread, but I hadn't realised Paul4As had snook back in here with his bigoted views on nationalists declaring for the Republic after he had said that he was finished posting on it.

Paul4As wrote: »

...playing for Northern Ireland has nothing to do with being Irish or British...as you can be either or both to play for Northern Ireland...it is about playing for the country you were born in or where your family was born in.

Paul4As wrote: »

playing for Northern Ireland is not about whether you consider yourself Irish or British...we want you to play and support us no matter what religion or nationality you chose to be!!!
Keep politics out of football!!!

Playing for the Republic is about playing for your country just as much as playing for Northern Ireland is about playing for your country. What you are failing to recognise is that the Nationalists in the North don't see Northern Ireland as their country. That's why they were given the right to choose Irish citizenship in the Good Friday agreement.

Being Irish citizens gives them the right to play for the Irish football team. (I know citizenship doesn't automatically qualify, but in this circumstance Irish citizens born in Northern Ireland meet the qualifying criteria just as the CAS has confirmed.)

Your failure to acknowledge that and your wish to deny them their rights by forcing them to play for your country is disgusting. Your false cry of keeping politics out of sport is a nonsense and self contradictory - any valuation of which country is ''their country'' is in itself a political assertion.

super_furry

Do we really need to go through this sh1te again?

Pro. F

super_furry wrote: »

Do we really need to go through this sh1te again?

If you don't like the post then report it.

Fr Tod Umptious

super_furry wrote: »

Do we really need to go through this sh1te again?

Yes we do

One active thread a day of this s**t is not enough

How do your expect the clowns that partake in the regular Celtic v Rangers p*ss*ing match to get by one one thread a day

OhNoYouDidn't

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Yes we do

One active thread a day of this s**t is not enough

How do your expect the clowns that partake in the regular Celtic v Rangers p*ss*ing match to get by one one thread a day

What has any of this got to do with Celtic or Rangers?

Pro. F

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Yes we do

One active thread a day of this s**t is not enough

How do your expect the clowns that partake in the regular Celtic v Rangers p*ss*ing match to get by one one thread a day

I'm a clown who partakes in regular Celtic Rangers pissing matches am I? Got any evidence of this?

Maybe you should do some research before you go making massive and incorrect assumptions about a poster's motivations.

If you're not interested in this topic then why don't you just stay out of the thread?