Independant Mature Candidates must have graduated 3 years ago

Icarian

This is a new rule introduced this year. It doesn't affect undergraduates, or applicants who graduated in 2007, but if you graduated in 2008 or 2009, your application will not be accepted.

Funny... I've spoken to the VEC, Higer Education Departmemnt, county council, and representatives at a higher education funding information evening, and not once was I informed of this rule, I was told I'd easily qualify by everyone.

Now I've got a course I can't afford to attend, and I'm down 600+ Euros on the course deposit, and supporting documents for the grant and course application.

I can see alot of people getting cought out on this, it seems the relevant authorities have no obligation to provide this information to the public.

Kinski

Does this mean you can't change your status from dependent to independent, or that you just don't qualify even if you were independent during undergrad? Is it possible to still apply under your old status? This seems like a strange rule.

Icarian

no, you can still apply as a dependant candidate, in fact, it's the only thing you can apply for, regardless of age, if you graduated less than 3 years ago.

Shauny2010

If this is true that's really unfair. Just to double check, did you apply for a post grad course of some sort and got turned down for the grant because
you graduated within the last 3 years ? I read through the VEC scheme terms and it says nothing about this
http://www.clarevec.ie/uploads/file/2010_VEC_Scheme.pdf

Icarian

yeah shauny, thats exactly it...

the rule/information hasn't been made available to the public, and it seems they have no obligation to make the information available.

if you call your local VEC, HEA or dept of education, and ask the conditions, chances are they won't even tell you...

i was given printed sets of guidleines, by the grants department, rules and instructions for applicants too, which also made no mention of this either, I do wonder what the legality of this is though... can they really hold us to rules, that for all intents and purposes, do not exist, and which they have failed to tell make available to the public? it sounds awfully shady to me...

Timmi

I hope this is not true but I would not be surprised if it is. It's extremely unfair and underhanded to classify people as 'dependant' when they are in actuality 'independant' by inventing increasingly unreasonable criteria.

4arc

what is your source? i find it hard to believe that the people administering the grant dont know about this rule, if it exists.

Icarian

i was basically told by the HEA office, then when I rang the dept of education, i asked about it, they said they never heard of such a thing, then, "oh, you mean as an independant candidate for a postgrad course? yeah... you won't qualify... sorry, no flexibility"

it's just another pointless rule designed to thin applicant numbers and catch people out...

still makes no sense from a state funds point of view, my jobseekers for a year would cost the state WAY more than the grant...

sceptre

This was announced (apparently quietly, though I heard it) a few months ago.

It used to be that a year gap was required between being a dependent candidate and becoming an independent mature candidate (I don't know if they enforced this or not), now it's three years. If you were an independent candidate before, it doesn't affect you, as before. It's the time period that has changed, not the procedure. At least that's what they announced.

Msirishbell

I'm very confused about this, anyone know what the situation is for someone who graduated in 2008 and is applying as a mature independent candidate for a postgrad but has never applied for a grant before?

panda100

Guys, I am raging about this. Same as the op I was not informed of this at all. I was told by those in DCC and citizens advice bureau that I would qualify no problem for the grant.

I graduated in May 2008 and have been working consistently since on a minimum wage job. I've already put my 500 euro deposit on the course having been assured I will get my grant. I have been living independly off my parent for 2 and a half years now why should I be assessed on their income?! If I wait another year Im going to be 30 by the time I qualify in Social work.

I should have just gone on the dole and got the BTEA.

panda100

Msirishbell wrote: »

I'm very confused about this, anyone know what the situation is for someone who graduated in 2008 and is applying as a mature independent candidate for a postgrad but has never applied for a grant before?

Your not eligible for grant.

My letter from DCC said "it is not possible for this awarding body to assess you as an "independent mature" candidate, as you are not re-entering an approved course following a break of at least thee years after completion of an approved course".

Icarian

panda100 wrote: »

Guys, I am raging about this. Same as the op I was not informed of this at all. I was told by those in DCC and citizens advice bureau that I would qualify no problem for the grant.

I graduated in May 2008 and have been working consistently since on a minimum wage job. I've already put my 500 euro deposit on the course having been assured I will get my grant. I have been living independly off my parent for 2 and a half years now why should I be assessed on their income?! If I wait another year Im going to be 30 by the time I qualify in Social work.

I should have just gone on the dole and got the BTEA.

you wouldn't have qualified for the BTEA either, BTEA is only available for undergrad courses and higher diplomas, i.e. teaching/architect qualifications in particular...

My letter from DCC said "it is not possible for this awarding body to assess you as an "independent mature" candidate, as you are not re-entering an approved course following a break of at least thee years after completion of an approved course".

I never got this letter...

Every week I get a new letter either asking for new documents, or saying they never recieved documents I'm 100% certain I have sent in... Now they want a P60 - from an employer from 2008! Weird... they don't even take 2008's income into account, so it's not even slightly relevant. They also want a statement from social welfare stating exactly how much jobseekers I have recieved, despite the fact that no matter how they slice it, It would still be under 16,000, so well under the limits..

Just more pointless hoops for me to jump through, and in the end they'll reject my application anyway because of this mysterious new rule...:mad:

The authorities are a ****ing joke, and seemingly have no accountability, responsibility, or obligation to make the information available.

panda100

Icarian wrote: »

you wouldn't have qualified for the BTEA either, BTEA is only available for undergrad courses and higher diplomas, i.e. teaching/architect qualifications in particular...



I never got this letter...

Every week I get a new letter either asking for new documents, or saying they never recieved documents I'm 100% certain I have sent in... Now they want a P60 - from an employer from 2008! Weird... they don't even take 2008's income into account, so it's not even slightly relevant. They also want a statement from social welfare stating exactly how much jobseekers I have recieved, despite the fact that no matter how they slice it, It would still be under 16,000, so well under the limits..

Just more pointless hoops for me to jump through, and in the end they'll reject my application anyway because of this mysterious new rule...:mad:

The authorities are a ****ing joke, and seemingly have no accountability, responsibility, or obligation to make the information available.

Oh I had to do all that too. Im self employed and they asked for my 2008 self assesment form which I duly sent in. I was asked for proof of address for 2008 as well.I was sure I was eligible when they were asking for more documentation.

I was absolutely distraught when I received this letter on Friday. I will not recieve a grant on my parents salary. I will not have a job come September and I can't afford to do my course. They really should highlight this new rule more prominently as Im sure it affects many people applying for the grant. I sent in my application well over a month ago,and just receieved the letter on Friday, so I fear for those who won't hear anything about this until September.

Icarian

panda100 wrote: »

Oh I had to do all that too. Im self employed and they asked for my 2008 self assesment form which I duly sent in. I was asked for proof of address for 2008 as well.I was sure I was eligible when they were asking for more documentation.

I was absolutely distraught when I received this letter on Friday. I will not recieve a grant on my parents salary. I will not have a job come September and I can't afford to do my course. They really should highlight this new rule more prominently as Im sure it affects many people applying for the grant. I sent in my application well over a month ago,and just receieved the letter on Friday, so I fear for those who won't hear anything about this until September.

I'm going to see a TD about this, it probably won't make a difference, but theres nothing to lose in trying, I'd advise everyone else affected by tis to do the same, surely they must have some accountability for all this.

panda100

I am just wondering can anyone offer any suggestions of any other avenue of finance that may be opened to mature students other than the maintenance grant?

It is really just my fee's I need paid as I will be able to sustain my self,just about, on me meagre earnings!

Is there any loophole at all to this three year rule?

Strictly

Sorry I can't offer much advice about money for the fees except your local credit union may help.

I did a part time ie evening post grad course Sept 07 to May 08 which I fundeded through a student loan and JSA (as course was in the evenings). This seems to have ruled me out of the Grant, does any one know could I possibly get round the 3 year break as the course was part-time in the evenings, or am I just clutching at straws

seadnamac

I'm glad this is finally getting a bit of attention. It's been mentioned by thread starters a few times in the Mature and Non-Traditional Students forum but only ever receives a couple of replies. It's the most ridiculous rule imaginable, it has absolutely nothing to do with whether you are independant or not, yet is a major criteria in assessing whether you 'independantly' support yourself. I am in the same boat and it is effectively stopping me from continueing my education.

panda100

seadnamac wrote: »

I'm glad this is finally getting a bit of attention. It's been mentioned by thread starters a few times in the Mature and Non-Traditional Students forum but only ever receives a couple of replies. It's the most ridiculous rule imaginable, it has absolutely nothing to do with whether you are independant or not, yet is a major criteria in assessing whether you 'independantly' support yourself. I am in the same boat and it is effectively stopping me from continueing my education.

I was talking to a friend of mine who works in St.Vincent De Paul and she said in the last week they've had an avalanche of calls from people about this.

It was really humilating having to go home and ask my parent for their tax returns, despite the fact they haven't supported me financially in about 6 years and we're not on the best of terms since I gave up the old catholicism! I've paid my tax now almost half a decade,I've never asked for any state benefits before. Its going to cost a lot more for the goverment to have me on the dole for a year than pay my college fee's.

I really,really don't know what Im going to do for next year now. Next week Im going to go down in person to my local td and complain about this. Its not fair at all.

Strictly

I feel that this a cost saving exercise for the Dep of Education, they knew that it would take a group of people out of the Grant scheme but really most will then claim from the Dept. Social Welfare for the year so, one Dept's budget goes down and another one goes up, it is like robbing Peter to pay Paul. The money is after all coming from the same pot in the long run.

Icarian

Just found out that I defininitely wouldn't qualify based on household income for 2008

I only worked 2 months last year, but my brother worked 9, my mam worked 12 (civil service, not very high up), and my dad was unemployed for the last 6 months, but continued to pay himself a wage (self employed, he's the only employee...) in order to keep the company from closing...

Damn this is unlucky...

I tried to contact a local TD, but he's on holidays! his next clinic won't be until september ...

there's another local Fianna Fail TD, but he's ****ing useless, John Browne...

45772

Is it not 2009 your household income should be assesed on as opposed to 2008 Icarian??? they are really cutting corners to make it difficult for people to avail of badly needed funding when they need it most..I am going as a mature dependent candidate and must get my form in asap at the start of this week....the opportunity to do a masters hangs in the balance of red tape..

Annasopra

It's in the guidance notes

http://www.studentfinance.ie/downloads/1273247107/DES_S_Grant_Guidance_Notes_final_for_web_05May10.pdf

Candidate dependent on parent(s) or legal guardian:

If you were under 23 years of age on 1 January 2010, your student grant application will be assessed based on your parents’ or legal guardian’s income and your own income. You will need to send us evidence of legal guardianship.

Mature candidate dependent on parent(s) or legal guardian:
You can only be assessed as a mature candidate if you are at least 23 years of age on the 1st of January of the year of entry or re-entry to an approved course. (For example, I was born on 31 December 1986 and I am entering/re-entering an approved course on 1 September 2010). “Re-entry” for the purposes of the student grant schemes means entering as a mature candidate following a break in studies of at least three years. If you were 23 years of age or older on 1 January 2010 and were ordinarily resident with your parent(s) or legal guardian from the 1st October of the year prior to entry or re-entry to an approved course, your application will be assessed based on your parents’ or legal guardian’s income and your own income. You will need to send us evidence of legal guardianship.

Annasopra

Has anyone contacted USI about this?

panda100

45772 wrote: »

Is it not 2009 your household income should be assesed on as opposed to 2008 Icarian???

I was asked for 2008 self assessment as well as 2009. I think they take both years into account? However ,that was for an independent candidate,maybe its only 2009 incomes for dependent.

I rang my td's last week who were very sympathetic to my situation.I know a few Councillors in DCC so Im going to try and get them to apply a bit of pressure on the grants department about this. It has just sickened me with all the td's expenses that came out last week and all I want is a paltry sum to pay my fee's for college. I'm seriously thinking of emigrating at this stage If I don't get this grant,Not because I need to,but Im just sick of the sh*t that is going on in this country.

Annasopra

I sent the president and education officer of USI emails about the 3 year grant rule situation - I think it might be a good idea for other people to do the same

president@usi.ie, education@usi.ie


I also suggest contacting Ruairi Quinn, Fergus O Dowd as they are education spokespersons

fergus.odowd@finegael.ie

ruairi.quinn@oireachtas.ie

seadnamac

panda100 wrote: »

I was asked for 2008 self assessment as well as 2009. I think they take both years into account? However ,that was for an independent candidate,maybe its only 2009 incomes for dependent.

Icarian wrote: »

Just found out that I defininitely wouldn't qualify based on household income for 2008

I haven't seen any mention of them taking two years of earnings into account. All the documentation suggests they only go back to the 1st January 2009.

http://www.studentfinance.ie/mp9392/check-reckonable-income-bands/index.html

You really need to confront them on this. Make them show you where it says within their own guidelines, that they can take 2008 into account aswell.

Annasopra

panda100 wrote: »

I was asked for 2008 self assessment as well as 2009. I think they take both years into account? However ,that was for an independent candidate,maybe its only 2009 incomes for dependent.

No I don't think they need to know anything about 2008

panda100

Johnnymcg wrote: »

I sent the president and education officer of USI emails about the 3 year grant rule situation - I think it might be a good idea for other people to do the same

president@usi.ie, education@usi.ie


I also suggest contacting Ruairi Quinn, Fergus O Dowd as they are education spokespersons

fergus.odowd@finegael.ie

ruairi.quinn@oireachtas.ie

The USI president is a FF careerist to the extreme. I had many run ins with him in UCD, he will do nothing that will jepordise his future in the FF party,so while he may release a flimsy press release condeming the new 3-year rule he won't do anything proactive to help those affected by it.

I wouldn't bother wasting my time even writing an email to him. Its best to focus on your local TD's and councillers. Here is the letter I wrote to them:

I was hoping that as my local representative you could address the serious issue of college grants at the next council meetings.

As you may be aware, earlier this month, DCC and all local authorities changed the stipulation of what classifies as an 'Independent mature student' in the grant application. I received a letter from DCC last week informing me I was ineligible for assessment as an 'independent mature 'candiate as there hasn't been a sufficient break of three years after completion of a prior approved course.

From Dublin City Council:

"I am afraid there were significant changes to the scheme this year. A student previously was able to apply as an Independent Mature Student if there was a break of 1 year and if they were over 23 on the 1st of January on the year they were re-entering. This was changed by the Department of Education and Skills in the new scheme to 3 years. "

This is a new rule that has been brought in the last few weeks that no one was told about prior to or during their application process. A good friend of mine works in the educational division of St.Vincent De Paul and says they have been inundated with calls from distressed people over this news which is denying them the opportunity to further education.

Despite obtaining my undergrad degree in May 2008 and working consistently, on a minimum wage job, living away from home now for four years, I am still classified as dependent on my parents! This is an utter joke,I have paid my taxes for three years now,my parents have nothing to do with my financial situation. Its humiliating and baffling that I have to be assessed under my parents tax returns just because I graduated in September 2008 and not September 2007?

This is extremely shortsighted of the government. It costs, at most, € 9,000 to pay the fee's and maintenance grant of a student for a year. How much more will it cost someone on the dole, which is where most of us will be If we don't get this grant?
It cost €13,000 for Noel Dempsy to fly up to Donegal for a weekend,it will cost half that to put me through UCC for a year so I can become a social worker, and actually add positively to Irish society.

I think this issue seriously needs addressing,this new rule is causing utter devastation to people who have already put down their nonrefundable deposits of €600 on postgraduate places confident they will be offered a grant after paying taxes for the last two years.

This is a matter that has received no media attention, and It would be greatly appreciated If It could be highlighted at Dublin county and city council meetings.

This isn't meant to be a personal rant,though it does sound like it I,and many others, would greatly appreciate If this matter was addressed by our Councillors as its an issues that will have a huge impact on many young people in their area

45772

having just looked again at the studentfinance.ie website, it appears to me that its the "mature candidate dependent on parents" that is affected by the " re-entry after 3 year break from studies" and not the independent mature candidate or does " re-entry" apply in both scenarios???

Annasopra

45772 wrote: »

having just looked again at the studentfinance.ie website, it appears to me that its the "mature candidate dependent on parents" that is affected by the " re-entry after 3 year break from studies" and not the independent mature candidate or does " re-entry" apply in both scenarios???

looks like both to me