Women hating/disliking other women

Eve_Dublin

Hi everyone! Was thinking about this after a comments I´ve read on this forum and other forums within Boards and it´s some women´s dislike of other women. I´ve heard women bandy around comments such as "I don´t like other women, so most of my friends are male" or "I despair of my own gender sometimes" or "I´m not a girly-girl. girly-girls get on my nerves" or "Girls can be such bitches" (this comment I made myself yesterday on this forum.....surely humans generally can be a-holes).

I´m guilty of it myself sometimes but I thought it was interesting and wondered where it all stemmed from? Why do some of us hold such contempt for each other? As gender we have our faults, of course, but you never hear other men make comments about each other like we do. Men are no better than women....were equal, right? Where does the shame come from? Why do some of us distance ourselves from supposed types of women instead of just classing them as people we don´t get along with?

One school of thought reckons that we are being turned against ourselves to prevent us from gaining any power as a sex. Feminism is a bad word and women are afraid to proclaim they are. All feminism is is a movement for social, cultural, political and economic equality of men and women. It´s not a man-bashing movement and if that´s what it turns into, then it´s gone astray. There´s a bad element in every movement but the bad element in this particular movement has tarnished the name for a lot of people. The word has been taken away from us to be used to express the feeling we have that things aren´t fair for women in society.

OKay, this is huge a topic of contention but I´m no intellectual but it´s one I´m interested in all the same. I´m hoping you guys will give your input and shed some light on this. Are we turning against ourselves and if so, why? Should there not be a little more solidarity among us instead of fighting among ourselves?

Just to give you an example of something that happened to me a few days ago...I travelled with a guy in South America for a few weeks over a year and a half ago. We became very good friends in that time and have kept in touch by email. The other day I posted a comment on his wall on Facebook, a very innocent comment and it was retorted by a very nasty comment from his girlfriend. I thought she was joking and responded with something jokey but I got a load of insults thrown at me this morning, which I know I didn´t deserve. If she has problems trusting her boyfriend, why is she taking it out on me and not her fella? I see this happening a lot....the "other" woman is the slag, the slut etc. and a lot of the time most of the venom comes from other women.

It makes no sense and makes me sad. Why is there a distrust among us when men are just as likely to be sneaky, lying cheaters? Why are we so competitive among each other to the point where were just plain nasty to each other? How come men don´t carry on this way to the same extent?

WHY do we do it to ourselves? Surely we shouldn´t be adding fuel to an already roaring fire?

I read a fantastic article in The Guardian yesterday that made me think. It´s about the use of casual misogynistic language in society directed at women and the author touches on how OTHER women are guilty of this as well either out of fear of not blending in or just plain old contempt for each other. Do you agree and where does it stem from? What can be done about it? Here´s the article:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/jul/30/casual-sexism-misogyny

Thanks guys!

metrovelvet

There's a book about this. 'Woman's Inhumanity to Women'. I haven't read it though.

Eve_Dublin

metrovelvet wrote: »

There's a book about this. 'Woman's Inhumanity to Women'. I haven't read it though.

Just in case you´re interested, it´s on Google Books. Here´s the link:

http://books.google.es/books?id=PYsn31FBdFIC&printsec=frontcover&dq=woman%C2%B4s+inhumanity+to+women&hl=es&ei=0OhTTKjSJ8ytOM_kgZ8O&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=woman%C2%B4s%20inhumanity%20to%20women&f=false

Censorsh!t

I definitely understand what you're saying. I could probably go on and on with examples of rumours/lies/prejudices etc etc between girls from my own experience.
I remember being told by one of my best friends that she actually prefers hanging around with guys. It was pretty hurtful and insulting. It's as if she was saying "sorry, but guys are just better than you, and there's no way you can change to be like them". And I wasn't even a girly-girl at all!


All of it kinda reminds me of the film Mean Girls, actually.

I won't say I'm not guilty of any of it myself, I think pretty much everyone is, but in the last few years I've made a lot more effort to think before I say anything

Eve_Dublin

Thanks for your post Censorsh!t....I agree with everything your saying. Like you I´m becoming more concious of my own thinking and what I say. I suppose that´s the way to maybe decrease this...by raising our awareness and question WHY we react negatively towards women in certain circumstances. Do they really deserve your vitriol or is there something deeper at play here?

Started to read that book...will defo give it a read in the next few days. It´s exactly what I was talking about. Maybe It´ll give us more insight.

Lia_lia

I am very guilty of it. But I genuinely can't stand some women. All the girls I hung out with in school for example. The majority of them just act really stupid and...girly! And very bitchy. Can't relate to them at all. Just don't get the whole girly clique thing. Therefore most of my friends are guys. I have a few close girl friends but they would be more inclined to be friends with fellas too.

Dr. Zeus

Hope it's ok that I join in here. I am very interested in the whole gender politics and have recently become aware of the misogny that I see in society and among my male and female friends.

I think it is true that many women certainly are very nasty towards other women. I have seen this when I am out and how other girls react when a pretty girl comes into the group. Guys notice and other girls notice the guys noticing and this often results in them finding some fault with this girl. She's such a bitch so stuck up etc I think that may be the result of competition for males/male attention. Another girl especially a pretty one is going to take their boyfriend whatever.

Women tend to be judged on their looks and being an attractive female can work to their advantage. I think this inspires jealously and envy from other females.

I have also notice this in the workplace. Often women who are successful in certain industries have to fight hard to get there so when they see another woman coming up the ranks they don't want to make life to easy for them as they had to struggle to get where they are.

Just my two cents. It's a pity though women get enough crap from men sometimes so its a pity they don't support each othe more in some cases.

Lia_lia

Dr. Zeus wrote: »

I think it is true that many women certainly are very nasty towards other women. I have seen this when I am out and how other girsl react when a pretty girl comes into the group. Guys notice and other girls notice the guys noticing and this often results in them finding some fault with this girls. She's such a bitch so stuck up etc I think that may be the result of competition for males/male attention. Another girls especially a pretty one is going to take their boyfriend whatever.
.

Yeah that's bloody headwrecking too. Since myself and my last boyfriend broke up I've been accused of "trying to steal" at least 7 or 8 girls boyfriends...pfft.

Dr. Zeus

Hi Eve-Dublin,

I think a lot of the misognistic language bitch/whore/slut which seems to be more common nowadays is from the porn culture seeping into the mainstream. This is just my opinion. If you are watching porn where this language is the norm I think it is inevitable that it will seep into mainstream lingo. Of course I do not have any scientific evidence for this so if I said this in the Humanties forum I would be ridiculed.

Cavehill Red

I saw a stand-up once who began his show with the opening line, "You know the way all women secretly hate each other?"
He never got to the punchline. The (admittedly slightly drunk and certainly cheery) audience clapped and cheered for about five minutes, both sexes.
Whatever the reason, it's definitely a recognised phenomenon. I'm not buying the line that it's all the patriarchy's doing though.
My theory: perhaps men just have a greater sense of cameraderie or solidarity, developed through the ages via the need for communal effort (from hunting on the plains to working together in factories) whereas women, who primarily were involved in child rearing until relatively recently, likely diverted most of their loyalty towards their immediate families rather than women at large.

metrovelvet

We dont have healthy competitive outlets.

Scanlas The 2nd

I think women are more bitchy (behind their backs) than men because relationships are have generally been more important to women for survival in the last few million years. Men are more directly confrontational than women because social relationships are less important.

So women attack other women safely by colluding with other women in attempt to strengthen their social network and become more influential.

It comes from natural instincts, all this talk of media and feminism being the source is complete rubbish in my opinion.

I'd say in the jungles right now the female chimps are bitching about other female chimps.

Dolbert

Dr. Zeus wrote: »

Hi Eve-Dublin,

I think a lot of the misognistic language bitch/whore/slut which seems to be more common nowadays is from the porn culture seeping into the mainstream. This is just my opinion. If you are watching porn where this language is the norm I think it is inevitable that it will seep into mainstream lingo. Of course I do not have any scientific evidence for this so if I said this in the Humanties forum I would be ridiculed.

I tried to put forward the view there that the rising accessibility to porn is having a negative effect on our culture in this way... I was by and large shot down in flames. Of course if you have any problem with porn you are a prude with loads of hangups about sex :rolleyes: Then again, I was arguing this point with males who frequent the internet, not much hope for me I think you'll agree.

metrovelvet wrote: »

We dont have healthy competitive outlets.

This is so true. Competitiveness is seen as a negative trait in females, particularly when it comes to sports.

I personally love my group of female friends. They are intelligent, kind women, as I generally don't tend to befriend the 'Mean Girls' brigade (not that they'd have me!) I think a group of girls of otherwise nice girls together can resemble a pack of lionesses really easily though.

If I start to see that happen in my own group of friends, I call them on it, or try to counter their argument and embarrass them into admitting that the bitching is baseless. I just hate, hate, hate the high school mentality and refuse to engage in the 'lioness' behaviour, thankfully my friends would be by and large the same way.

Posy

I'm the opposite of this; I have no brothers, went to an all girls school, there were mostly girls on my college course and the majority of my work colleagues are female. So all of my friends are female and I'm more socially awkward around fellas. I never understand women that are suspicious/take a dislike to someone just because they're of the same sex. It's a bit sad sometimes- they're missing out on some great possible friendships and girly nights in!

maggot12345

I think if you put any group of women together of almost any age they'll start bitching about someone they all know or someone in the group within a short space of time. They need not even know the person very well. The main group then seem to bond really well in a mutual dislike of the other and one person is left isolated where everything they do or say will be perceived in a negative way by the main group. No matter what they do!!!!!! It seems to be in our nature.:(

Orla K

I do think bitching a bit can be a positive thing.
Most of these things just go over my head, I don't notice when the guys all look at the good looking one, I don't notice her, when someone says something bitchy to me 99% of the time I laugh and agree making a joke about it, and then don't notice the look on their face when they've seen that they didn't get to me, it takes me ages to realise when people are ignoring me and when I do I've no idea why so I just leave them at it. But, sometimes I can be a bitch, I was a bitch a few months ago(I posted it up here) I had actually been noticing that someone kept on making little bitchy type comments(comments that could be taken either way except that they were said with venom) one day I snapped (and I think got labeled the bad one because she's 'insecure') I said one bitchy thing to her, she went ballistic (not to my face) ever since then I haven't had to put up with her, she wouldn't even look at me for ages after. In that instance yeah being a bitch proved useful to me because she had been slowly getting me down to make herself feel good and I put a stop to it.

Another thing that happened that was positive was I mentioned what had happened with this person to someone else that knew her and she was having the similar problems with this woman, she felt less alone (the woman has a large close family that are all on her side and the person I was talking to just moved here and barely knows anyone) the 3rd person there then asked questions about her and we discribed her and things that happened, not much in glowing terms but not nasty either but it made both of us feel better that it wasn't us that were the problem, it was her problem, probably her insecurity, for whatever reason she maybe felt threatened by us(can understand the other one with her ex but me we couldn't figure that one out)


In small doses it can be good, after all we can't be nice the whole time but the pointless bitching(like some of the things mentioned in other posts) I just don't get.

I don't dislike women, I tend to dislike people, I've disliked about an even number in the sexes mostly for the same reason. I could never say I hate anyone.

Boxoffrogs

I think this is true to some extent. In my experience males are more likely to take you as they find you. I think girls (well some that I have known anyway) have a habit of dissecting your personality. It's almost like they want to find something about you to criticise. I've certainly been on the receiving end of bitchy comments in my time and once in a work situation which was almost intolerable. The best thing to do in a situation like that is to avoid feeding the monster. People will very quickly tire if you can bring yourself to ignore them.

Having said that, my two oldest and very dearest friends are both female and I can share secrets with them that I wouldn't dream of talking to a man about. You get different things from different people.

Dudess

This can get on my nerves. "I'm ashamed of my gender" - wtf? And women with careers and an education who hate feminism... grrrr. Admittedly I don't consider feminism of huge relevance to women in the west now, but look at what the original tenets of this ideology did for women!
It's so arrogant too the way these women who say "women are bitches", "I'm ashamed of my gender" bla bla, entirely based on them having a vagina... consider themselves exempt despite also having a vagina. :pac:
And sneering comments about how other women dress (or undress), what interests they have, and phrases like "mutton dressed as lamb", "left on the shelf"... such sisterhood!

That said, observationally speaking, I think men tend to be funnier...

I'm one of those women who doesn't have many female friends. I honestly just don't get along with women. It's not the bitchiness, it's something else. I always feel like women have ulterior motives or are judging you or something. My boyfriend's female friends are always really funny with me while the male ones are lovely. I just don't 'get' women. I've always felt like I was born the wrong sex or something. I never understand the 'Mean Girls' type antics, like complimenting someone on something when you really hate it and are just being a bitch. Why would anyone do that? At the same time, most girls don't 'get' me because they take a direct, straight talking girl as a bitch or assume your comments have a double meaning or are intended as a dig. I'm always that isolated, marginalised person in a female dominated group and have even been frozen out of a workplace because of it. I have met girls who are truly sound and clicked with them immediately, but it doesn't happen often and hasn't happened since I moved to London. I'd love to have a few close girly mates to have evenings in or nights on the town, I really miss having a close female friend to hang out with and chat to but I find it so hard

Dudess

Actually Izzy, I was treated like sh1t by other women in a workplace too - really nastily treated. For different reasons to you it seems though. I'm very outgoing and gregarious and always treating things as a big laugh, and I suppose seem confident, and they didn't like that at all - thought I should have been more mousey perhaps. And I took to the job really easily - so therefore I "knew it all". That was just a small group of women I worked alongside with who had a reputation for being embittered anyway (I remember them despising the young, very pretty marketing manager. When she once wore a tight top - with a long skirt - while heavily pregnant during warm weather, it was deemed "disgusting". The jealousy was hilarious :pac:). But then other women there started to freeze me out, including ones whom I'd got on with very well previously, because I was seen as a "slut" and overly flirtatious due to getting on really well with all the lads. I acted like I didn't give a sh1t but it hurt at times...
Thankfully though, I got moved to a different department and all the women there were fantastic - wonderful people. A good laugh and didn't constantly size others up. It's amazing what environment and ripple effect can do...

K-9

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

Hi everyone! Was thinking about this after a comments I´ve read on this forum and other forums within Boards and it´s some women´s dislike of other women. I´ve heard women bandy around comments such as "I don´t like other women, so most of my friends are male" or "I despair of my own gender sometimes" or "I´m not a girly-girl. girly-girls get on my nerves" or "Girls can be such bitches" (this comment I made myself yesterday on this forum.....surely humans generally can be a-holes).

I´m guilty of it myself sometimes but I thought it was interesting and wondered where it all stemmed from? Why do some of us hold such contempt for each other? As gender we have our faults, of course, but you never hear other men make comments about each other like we do. Men are no better than women....were equal, right? Where does the shame come from? Why do some of us distance ourselves from supposed types of women instead of just classing them as people we don´t get along with?

One school of thought reckons that we are being turned against ourselves to prevent us from gaining any power as a sex. Feminism is a bad word and women are afraid to proclaim they are. All feminism is is a movement for social, cultural, political and economic equality of men and women. It´s not a man-bashing movement and if that´s what it turns into, then it´s gone astray. There´s a bad element in every movement but the bad element in this particular movement has tarnished the name for a lot of people. The word has been taken away from us to be used to express the feeling we have that things aren´t fair for women in society.

OKay, this is huge a topic of contention but I´m no intellectual but it´s one I´m interested in all the same. I´m hoping you guys will give your input and shed some light on this. Are we turning against ourselves and if so, why? Should there not be a little more solidarity among us instead of fighting among ourselves?

Just to give you an example of something that happened to me a few days ago...I travelled with a guy in South America for a few weeks over a year and a half ago. We became very good friends in that time and have kept in touch by email. The other day I posted a comment on his wall on Facebook, a very innocent comment and it was retorted by a very nasty comment from his girlfriend. I thought she was joking and responded with something jokey but I got a load of insults thrown at me this morning, which I know I didn´t deserve. If she has problems trusting her boyfriend, why is she taking it out on me and not her fella? I see this happening a lot....the "other" woman is the slag, the slut etc. and a lot of the time most of the venom comes from other women.

It makes no sense and makes me sad. Why is there a distrust among us when men are just as likely to be sneaky, lying cheaters? Why are we so competitive among each other to the point where were just plain nasty to each other? How come men don´t carry on this way to the same extent?

WHY do we do it to ourselves? Surely we shouldn´t be adding fuel to an already roaring fire?

I read a fantastic article in The Guardian yesterday that made me think. It´s about the use of casual misogynistic language in society directed at women and the author touches on how OTHER women are guilty of this as well either out of fear of not blending in or just plain old contempt for each other. Do you agree and where does it stem from? What can be done about it? Here´s the article:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/jul/30/casual-sexism-misogyny

Thanks guys!

Tbh, I think the Facebook example could be either gender. Men can equally be as aggressive like that, sure we all know the example down the pub/nightclub. Women do it there as well, though often not as straight up!

I went out with a girl like that and it was annoying. I worked in bars and was an unmarried Dad. If an unmarried mother chatted to me, she was after me? Seriously. Apparently I wouldn't be able to resist her womenly charms, but anyway, I digress!

Anyway, I think women are in many ways just as competitive as men, indeed maybe more so. This is often the way it is expressed, though it can be comments about outfits, looks etc. Men often do it in more subtle ways, strangely!

Will it change? I have my doubts. Some people are extremely competitive. It often is a good thing, but sometimes it is just a superiority thing, often hiding insecurities.

As regards the Guardian, that easily could be written about women with male examples and I think therein lies the key to the dilemna. When it as seen as a gender problem, it completely misses the point. Gender isn't the issue here, characteristics in certain people is!

metaoblivia

If I had to guess, I think the number of guy friends I have would slightly edge out the number of girl friends. There isn't a certain type of girl I dislike, just a certain type of person. I don't mind girly girls or tomboys or whatever falls in between as long as they're sound, friendly people. The reason I think I may have more guy friends is just because I like to talk about sports and current affairs. Just generalizing here, but I've found more guys who are interested in those topics than girls.

vicecreamsundae

i haaaate when girls say they just don't like/get along with girls.i notice the girls who say this tend to imply that women are all bitchy and guys are just easier to get along with, but saying you don't like women is about as 'bitchy' as it gets.

when i was a younger teenager i was a bit like that myself, but now i know it's just a matter of meeting the right women! the women i am friends with now are hilarious and smart and great to be around. i'm probably friends with the same amount of men and women.
also, i don't want to discount female-male friendships, because those are wonderful too and i know some women genuinely get along with guys better due to shared interests or whatever, BUT i think some women who say they prefer being friends with guys don't realise that guy friends sometimes treat you better than female friends - i know a couple girls who hang out almost exclusively with guys and claim girls are generally just bitchy -but they don't realise that pretty much all their guy friends want to bone them and kiss their asses all the time and treat them better than they treat their other guy friends.

if i have a problem with a female friend [or non friend] i consciously make an effort to identify what it is i don't like about them - i make a point of NEVER referring to anyone as just "a bitch" or dissing a girl on the basis of her appearance or sex life or anything that us women are unfortunately famous for.

PhysiologyRocks

I don't dislike other women at all. I don't really have a gender preference friend-wise. However, most of my friends happen to be male. I'm really not sure why!

metrovelvet

maggot12345 wrote: »

I think if you put any group of women together of almost any age they'll start bitching about someone they all know or someone in the group within a short space of time. They need not even know the person very well. The main group then seem to bond really well in a mutual dislike of the other and one person is left isolated where everything they do or say will be perceived in a negative way by the main group. No matter what they do!!!!!! It seems to be in our nature.:(

Thats true for men and women. Co munities can be formed on shared hatreds.

Dudess

Dudess wrote: »

Actually Izzy, I was treated like sh1t by other women in a workplace too - really nastily treated. For different reasons to you it seems though. I'm very outgoing and gregarious and always treating things as a big laugh, and I suppose seem confident, and they didn't like that at all - thought I should have been more mousey perhaps. And I took to the job really easily - so therefore I "knew it all". That was just a small group of women I worked alongside with who had a reputation for being embittered anyway (I remember them despising the young, very pretty marketing manager. When she once wore a tight top - with a long skirt - while heavily pregnant during warm weather, it was deemed "disgusting". The jealousy was hilarious :pac:). But then other women there started to freeze me out, including ones whom I'd got on with very well previously, because I was seen as a "slut" and overly flirtatious due to getting on really well with all the lads. I acted like I didn't give a sh1t but it hurt at times...
Thankfully though, I got moved to a different department and all the women there were fantastic - wonderful people. A good laugh and didn't constantly size others up. It's amazing what environment and ripple effect can do...

I don't know why exactly it happened to me. The nicer girls in the company offered suggestions, from it was because I didn't join in the bitching about other people, that I was popular with the men in the company (although I never flirted or anything), that I stood up for myself, that I was too direct, all sorts of things. Like you, I think a lot of people were jealous/annoyed that I took to the job easily and then started expecting me to know as much as the girls who had been there 10+ years and criticising me when I didn't know which florist to order flowers from (it wasn't written anywhere), chastising me for 'not using my initiative', when doing so resulted in being told 'oh ,that's not how we do it here.'

I still can't get over how so many of the girls, including those I'd been friendly with, just ganged up on me once the Queen Bee decided she didn't like me because she thought I'd made a mistake which affected her slightly (I didn't, it was down to a misunderstanding which wasn't my fault). We had temps come in sometimes and none of them could get over how nasty everyone was for no apparent reason. It went as far as people reporting me to HR for things that never happened, or things they twisted to make me look bad. Thing is, the HR manager was the biggest bitch of them all. I ended up with about 4 warnings for things like 'not looking comfortable in the job' and 'having a bad attitude', despite never having so much as a harsh word said to me in any other job, ever. I've gotten glowing references from every job but that one.

It just terrified me to see how easy it is for a couple of bitches to turn an entire workplace against you. I'm a really strong person and it really upset me, the injustice more than anything. The fact you really don't even the chance to defend yourself, because everything you say is twisted and judged. I've ended up going down a more 'male' career path, and I suppose it's not really a coincidence. Contrary to what people think, it's not ego massage, I don't think guys are nice to me because they want to bone me. I just get on much better with other straightforward, direct people who just say what they mean and mean what they say instead of all those bitchy undercurrents and office allegiances.

metrovelvet

It's classic female bullying.

Eve_Dublin

metrovelvet wrote: »

We dont have healthy competitive outlets.

You put these interesting little snippets of opinion up here Metrovelvet...I´d love if you expanded on this I have friends who played football at school on an all girls team and they were both bullied to the extreme and had to leave the team after a few months. I´ve encountered that myself the few times I got off my lazy backside and attempted sport on all female teams.

southsiderosie

Although I thought the Guardian article went off the rails a bit at the end, her broader point about the casual use of sexist, misogynistic language was dead-on. Someone being unpleasant to work with or incompetent has nothing to do with how they look, yet snide remarks about women are often accompanied by remarks about their appearance. If Carla screws up at work, why is she a dumb blonde bitch, but if Carl screws up he isn't a dumb fat balding mother****er? I'm not condoning either here, just pointing out the double-standard.

That said, I don't get the whole "I only have guy friends because girls are too bitchy" thing. Not all girls are like that, and frankly if it's always someone else's problem, maybe more people need to take a look at themselves; tarring everyone with the same brush like that seems inherently anti-female. I can understand when people say they have a lot of guy friends because of shared interests - in grad school I had more guy than girl friends because I liked watching football on Sundays, and I played on the department softball team. But I don't think that that gender alone is the reason behind bad inter-personal relationships.

Faith

I don't dislike women generally. I have several extremely close female friends who I adore. I have dozens more less close female friends. But I'm currently working in an environment which has gone from being say, 70% women to 90% women and I hate it. The lack of men has really highlighted the negative qualities of the women working there. I hate going in to work at the moment because there's constant bitchiness and whispering and gossiping in corners. One in particular is really upsetting me at the moment, because she's such a cow. She's great friends with me when there's no-one else around, but if there's anyone else working who she perceives to be "cooler" than me, or whatever her criteria are, she starts to completely ignore me or respond either patronisingly or snidely when I try to talk to her. Another is an absolute bitch 50% of the time, and is completely aware of it but blames her "hormones". A third is dull as dishwater and is only capable of either bullying us or talking about her husband.

That's just a few examples - and there's only a dozen or so employed where I work. Men in general are more fun, more laid back, and not bitchy. You can have great banter with them without having to be aware of politics or anything. They don't act like arseholes and then shrug and blame it on phantom hormones. They're just much more straight-forward IMO.

Like I said, I have mostly female friends so I don't just hate women, but I find that women are generally much more likely to be disagreeable and difficult to get on with than men are.

Adelie

Faith wrote: »

I don't dislike women generally. I have several extremely close female friends who I adore. I have dozens more less close female friends. But I'm currently working in an environment which has gone from being say, 70% women to 90% women and I hate it. The lack of men has really highlighted the negative qualities of the women working there. I hate going in to work at the moment because there's constant bitchiness and whispering and gossiping in corners. One in particular is really upsetting me at the moment, because she's such a cow. She's great friends with me when there's no-one else around, but if there's anyone else working who she perceives to be "cooler" than me, or whatever her criteria are, she starts to completely ignore me or respond either patronisingly or snidely when I try to talk to her. Another is an absolute bitch 50% of the time, and is completely aware of it but blames her "hormones". A third is dull as dishwater and is only capable of either bullying us or talking about her husband.

That's just a few examples - and there's only a dozen or so employed where I work. Men in general are more fun, more laid back, and not bitchy. You can have great banter with them without having to be aware of politics or anything. They don't act like arseholes and then shrug and blame it on phantom hormones. They're just much more straight-forward IMO.

Like I said, I have mostly female friends so I don't just hate women, but I find that women are generally much more likely to be disagreeable and difficult to get on with than men are.

I think a workplace which is dominated by either gender has major potential to be an unpleasant place to work. In female dominated workplaces I had the same problem, lots of bitchiness. But in male dominated ones I've had different problems. One was guys talking about stuff they'd normally keep to themselves in mixed company, I mean stuff I really don't want to know about like porn or what they got up to the night before (or more likely an exaggerated version). Another was that they'd try to one-up each other by getting female attention, i.e. mine, so unwanted flirting, or putting each other down and stuff like that. Never had any of those happen excessively in a more balanced work environment, even if there is a fair bit of a difference in numbers. I think men and women have positive effects on each other

Ectoplasm

I found this an interesting article. Like others I thought she went a bit far, particularly at the end, but I do find that casual sexism is alive and well. I'm regularly disgusted by comments I hear around me, but I don't stay quiet about it.

I get on very well with men and women. I grew up with four brothers, so my female friends were a salvation from that environment. I am a woman, and I find that, in general, women understand me better than men. I do not get the 'oh I don't like other women' stance and I think it says way more about the person saying it than it does about all the women they are talking about.

I find it interesting the number of comments about women in the workplace - I work in an industry which is 90% to 95% men, and let me tell you, they are just as bitchy as women. I actually think it's a gender balance thing, because as a woman in that environment, I don't get bitched about - it's the men bitching about the other men. In my opinion most bitching in this situation is about jockeying for position.

One thing I will say, I found this more of an issue when I was younger - in my teens and early twenties. I do think it is because as young girls, women are encouraged to be 'nicer' and being forthright and direct are seen as causing conflict. The result isn't that girls are nicer than boys, they are just more devious and subtle about their conflicts. I liken it to guerrilla warfare. I think if we encourage girls to be direct from a young age, they're less likely to engage in this behaviour in groups. As I've gotten older, I don't engage in this type of behaviour and very few of my friends do either.

Ickle Magoo

I've always had more male friends than female. After moving unhappily from flat to flat at uni, I eventually settled in a flat with five blokes - bliss. No more arguments over bathrooms or being subjected to rom-coms and soap operas.

There was a type of girl I didn't like at school who thought that clothes and hair and impressing the opposite sex was what life was all about and brains were something to be ashamed of and to pretend you didn't have. I didn't get on with them then and I don't get on with the older equivalent now. In general, I just find men less hard work. The whole two faced, bitchy competitiveness doesn't happen with me - though I often witnessed it between other men and the conversations also generally revolve around things that are more interesting to me so I don't need to invest so much effort into keeping a conversation going.

I don't dislike women at all, my sister is my best friend and I have a very close knit group of female friends but there is an openness and general reluctance to get involved in bad mouthing anyone that isn't there to defend themselves that I really like. Having said that, women who are two-faced and bitchy certainly still exist well beyond when they should know better. You hear them at the school gates commenting on other mothers, gossiping and sneering and then when the women in question arrive they are greeted with gusto and much air-kissing. They don't seem to have any shorting of takers to listen to their bitching, I always give them a wide berth and generally notice the people I get on best with do likewise. :cool:

Eve_Dublin

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I've always had more male friends than female. After moving unhappily from flat to flat at uni, I eventually settled in a flat with five blokes - bliss. No more arguments over bathrooms or being subjected to rom-coms and soap operas.

There was a type of girl I didn't like at school who thought that clothes and hair and impressing the opposite sex was what life was all about and brains were something to be ashamed of and to pretend you didn't have. I didn't get on with them then and I don't get on with the older equivalent now. In general, I just find men less hard work. The whole two faced, bitchy competitiveness doesn't happen with me - though I often witnessed it between other men and the conversations also generally revolve around things that are more interesting to me so I don't need to invest so much effort into keeping a conversation going.

I don't dislike women at all, my sister is my best friend and I have a very close knit group of female friends but there is an openness and general reluctance to get involved in bad mouthing anyone that isn't there to defend themselves that I really like. Having said that, women who are two-faced and bitchy certainly still exist well beyond when they should know better. You hear them at the school gates commenting on other mothers, gossiping and sneering and then when the women in question arrive they are greeted with gusto and much air-kissing. They don't seem to have any shorting of takers to listen to their bitching, I always give them a wide berth and generally notice the people I get on best with do likewise. :cool:

Wow and I was going to ask was it related to age but looks like it´s not. That´s depressing. Have to say personally, I´ve come across less of the bitchiness among my own age groups (I´m 30) than I did when I was younger.

BumbleB

I have a friend and I was out in the pub with his GF. His GF is actually an extremely nice girl and I realy like her but I did see another side to her. We met a friend of mine from work ,he 's never really had much success with girls but he's a nice fella and dead on.
Anyhow we ended up in a nightclub and we got our drinks and sat down ,my friend from work was at the edge of the seat .anyhow this absolute godess of a girl came over to talk to him ,he got a little nervous and got her a drink and came back and they were talking .This girl had a really big chest ,slim waist and very good looking .I was dead happy for my buddy but for some reason my other friends GF there had got really jealous ,she was telling me the other girl was a slut .i couldn't really fathom that at all.

metrovelvet

BumbleB wrote: »

I have a friend and I was out in the pub with his GF. His GF is actually an extremely nice girl and I realy like her but I did see another side to her. We met a friend of mine from work ,he 's never really had much success with girls but he's a nice fella and dead on.
Anyhow we ended up in a nightclub and we got our drinks and sat down ,my friend was at the edge of the seat .anyhow this absolute godess of a girl came over to talk to him ,he got a little nervous and got her a drink and came back and they were talking .This girl had a really big chest ,slim waist and very good looking .I was dead happy for my buddy but for some reason the GF there had got really jealous ,she was telling me the other girl was a slut .i couldn't really fathom that at all.

Do not underestimate female insecurity. I suspect it has alot to do with female bitchiness and competitiveness.

And its not unjustified. Historically we've had a lot to be insecure about, having unstable status that up until recently has been out of our hands.

Limerick_Lass

BumbleB wrote: »

I have a friend and I was out in the pub with his GF. His GF is actually an extremely nice girl and I realy like her but I did see another side to her. We met a friend of mine from work ,he 's never really had much success with girls but he's a nice fella and dead on.
Anyhow we ended up in a nightclub and we got our drinks and sat down ,my friend was at the edge of the seat .anyhow this absolute godess of a girl came over to talk to him ,he got a little nervous and got her a drink and came back and they were talking .This girl had a really big chest ,slim waist and very good looking .I was dead happy for my buddy but for some reason the GF there had got really jealous ,she was telling me the other girl was a slut .i couldn't really fathom that at all.

Some girls hate not getting all the attention

southsiderosie

Faith wrote: »

That's just a few examples - and there's only a dozen or so employed where I work. Men in general are more fun, more laid back, and not bitchy. You can have great banter with them without having to be aware of politics or anything. They don't act like arseholes and then shrug and blame it on phantom hormones. They're just much more straight-forward IMO.

I think this is a key difference in the workplace - men are generally more straightforward, and more willing to have an argument and shake it off. Some women are like this too (and I've noticed more senior women in "mixed" workplaces in particular). Stylistically, this works for some people better than others; personally I find it a preferable way to deal with things at work, even if it is a bit harsher. So far I've been lucky in that I haven't worked in any of these crazy-type workplaces described in the thread!

Limerick_Lass wrote: »

Some girls hate not getting all the attention

To be fair, I have seem plenty of men having alpha-male pissing matches for attention in pubs - who can tell the funniest story, etc. And when they bitch about each other, instead of saying someone is a slut, they will say a guy is a "loudmouth" or something like that.

Ickle Magoo

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

Wow and I was going to ask was it related to age but looks like it´s not. That´s depressing. Have to say personally, I´ve come across less of the bitchiness among my own age groups (I´m 30) than I did when I was younger.

Yeah it's definitely less - or maybe I just don't have to share their company any more but still there unfortunately.

Maguined

To be honest i viewed that entire article as rubbish. While clearly examples of not very nice comments i don't see how they can be labelled as sexist, the majority was just some comments she heard in passing by randomers and these comments were made against individuals and not an entire gender.

It is unrealistic to claim any negative comment made towards a woman is based upon sexism and misogyny, if i call every woman i meet a bitch then yes i am sexist and misogynistic, if i only call the individual women i dislike bitches then i do not see that as sexist at all, i am judging them on their individual actions and labeling them negatively because of these actions not because of their gender.

Of course there is gender specific insults that are commonly used whore, bitch, c*nt etc but there are also such terms used to label men dickhead, bastard, wanker etc so i really feel the author of that article is viewing these incidents as sexist when they are probably not, the same lads who called one girl a slut have probably called some man a bastard on that same day.

I use negative labels to describe men and women i dislike all the time and i reckon the average person all do it all the time, just because some women get labeled negatively does not mean the person is labeling all women the same, i really think the author completely is seeing what she wants to see in these examples.

As for women putting down other women, i think its just a social status and hierarchy pecking order thing just the same as men do only expressed differently, men tend to be more direct and express it physically through sports or other physical activities (even the basic old pissing contest) to express their competitiveness and dominance over other males while women tend to rely less on physical displays and more on social interaction so for some this results in bitching about other women.

southsiderosie

Maguined wrote: »

I use negative labels to describe men and women i dislike all the time and i reckon the average person all do it all the time, just because some women get labeled negatively does not mean the person is labeling all women the same, i really think the author completely is seeing what she wants to see in these examples.

I didn't necessarily read that article as a critique of negative labeling per se; rather there is a gendered difference in how people are labelled. For example, when a woman is harshly criticized, her appearance is often raised; this is rarely an issue for men in the same way. If someone is stupid or incompetent, fine, but what does their weight or clothes or hairstyle have to do with it?

Maguined

I think men are just as criticised over their appearance as women well at least from my experience as a male it is just as frequent to hear someone complaining about another man he is not just a "bastard" but is usually a "fat, short, ugly, dumb, ginger, bald etc bastard".

Just because there are gender specific insults does not make those insults or their use sexist or misogynistic, if I call a man I dislike a bastard and a woman I dislike a bitch is one anymore sexist than the other? If both examples of insults were applied because of the peoples personalities or behaviour than it is hardly sexist as it was based on them as individuals not on their gender.

None of the examples the author used seemed like sexist comments, they seemed like comments made on individuals themselves, I would agree with the author if she used an example such as a 50 cent quote in which he said "bitches be crazy" that I could agree as being a sexist comment but I do not view the examples she used as sexist in my opinion anyway.

southsiderosie

Maguined wrote: »

Just because there are gender specific insults does not make those insults or their use sexist or misogynistic, if I call a man I dislike a bastard and a woman I dislike a bitch is one anymore sexist than the other? If both examples of insults were applied because of the peoples personalities or behaviour than it is hardly sexist as it was based on them as individuals not on their gender..

OK, again, a) what do their personalities have to do with their appearance, and b) in many of the cases in both the article and this thread, personality had nothing to do with how harshly women were judged by other women. If a complete stranger comes in and sits down at the bar, how would you know if they were a bitch or a slut? Yet there are a lot of women who would make these kinds of women-hating - i.e. misogynistic - nasty comments.

Maguined

It doesn't but if you dislike someone for one reason it is human nature to find other flaws with them, so if dislike someone you don't really say " I dislike Bob because he is quite rude and discourtious" your anger comes to the fore and you simply say " that Bob is a real obnoxious fat bastard"

I split my points, the first is the fact that I dont view such nasty comments as misogynistic at all as they are not motivated by a hatred of all women but more a dislike of specific people who happen to be women. The second point is that I view this dislike of specific people of your own gender to be completely natural as men do it as well but just in a different fashion, its not nice and I don't like it when its done I just dont view it as a great mystery I view it just as basic human nature trying to compete with your fellows to become the alpha female/male.

Novella

I dunno. I guess I've always had more male friends than female and my best friend is a guy, but I don't think it's because I find women too bitchy or anything. I think men can be just as cruel really, but are probably more subtle about it.

I don't make friends based on gender. Some girls are mean, some girls aren't. Some guys are, some aren't. That's really how I see it.

BumbleB

BumbleB wrote: »

I have a friend and I was out in the pub with his GF. His GF is actually an extremely nice girl and I realy like her but I did see another side to her. We met a friend of mine from work ,he 's never really had much success with girls but he's a nice fella and dead on.
Anyhow we ended up in a nightclub and we got our drinks and sat down ,my friend from work was at the edge of the seat .anyhow this absolute godess of a girl came over to talk to him ,he got a little nervous and got her a drink and came back and they were talking .This girl had a really big chest ,slim waist and very good looking .I was dead happy for my buddy but for some reason my other friends GF there had got really jealous ,she was telling me the other girl was a slut .i couldn't really fathom that at all.

Loads of girls are like that. I don't get it either. I don't understand how it's acceptable to treat another woman like crap because she's good looking. It wouldn't even occur to me to hate someone because they're pretty. All I'd think was how well they looked and I'd look at their clothes and see how they put things together, what make-up they use, etc. Lots of women also seem to think being good looking means you have a great life with no problems. I remember a girl in college having a really hard time, her mam died and she failed half her exams, and people pretty much saying 'ooh my heart bleeds for her' As if good looking people never get sick or have awful things happen.

I also think some girls just can't stand to hear another girl being complimented. Even some of my friends are awful for that. If a guy came over and told me I was pretty, they'd say he was just trying to get me into bed, or he thought I was foreign and an easy target. A few weeks ago at a party, a guy complimented me on my Spanish and a Spanish girl said it wasn't that good. If someone compliments my outfit or hair, there's always at least one woman who makes a screwed up face to imply she thinks I look disgusting. I mean, what the hell are these women trying to achieve? I can't believe that so many women are so pathetic and insecure that they can't even stand to hear another women receiving a compliment. As if there's only a small supply of compliments in the world, and me receiving one means they're deprived of one. I actually had to ask my boyfriend to stop telling me I looked pretty/beautiful when we meet up, because I got so sick of girls giving me the once over and a look saying 'you're not THAT pretty.' I've been sick and most of the time he's trying to cheer me up after a day in hospital or having received results, but all they can see is 'oh no, there's someone better looking than me in the world.' Honestly, so many women are so incredibly shallow and mean spirited. It's depressing.

BumbleB

southsiderosie wrote: »

To be fair, I have seem plenty of men having alpha-male pissing matches for attention in pubs - who can tell the funniest story, etc. And when they bitch about each other, instead of saying someone is a slut, they will say a guy is a "loudmouth" or something like that.

Youre correct in your assumption as above .Alpha male dynamics are always at work in male interactions whether you see it or not. Its always there .It usually the most in your face person. I've had to deal with alpha male **** quite a lot as a tall individual , I've even had a dublin gaa player try to box me because I was stopped by some random girl and I started chatting to her !.


I also have a friend who is really good at interacting with women ,and the guys get mad jealous of him.

Manuel Crashing Senselessness wrote: »

Loads of girls are like that. I don't get it either. I don't understand how it's acceptable to treat another woman like crap because she's good looking. It wouldn't even occur to me to hate someone because they're pretty. All I'd think was how well they looked and I'd look at their clothes and see how they put things together, what make-up they use, etc. Lots of women also seem to think being good looking means you have a great life with no problems. I remember a girl in college having a really hard time, her mam died and she failed half her exams, and people pretty much saying 'ooh my heart bleeds for her' As if good looking people never get sick or have awful things happen.

I also think some girls just can't stand to hear another girl being complimented. Even some of my friends are awful for that. If a guy came over and told me I was pretty, they'd say he was just trying to get me into bed, or he thought I was foreign and an easy target. A few weeks ago at a party, a guy complimented me on my Spanish and a Spanish girl said it wasn't that good. If someone compliments my outfit or hair, there's always at least one woman who makes a screwed up face to imply she thinks I look disgusting. I mean, what the hell are these women trying to achieve? I can't believe that so many women are so pathetic and insecure that they can't even stand to hear another women receiving a compliment. As if there's only a small supply of compliments in the world, and me receiving one means they're deprived of one. I actually had to ask my boyfriend to stop telling me I looked pretty/beautiful when we meet up, because I got so sick of girls giving me the once over and a look saying 'you're not THAT pretty.' I've been sick and most of the time he's trying to cheer me up after a day in hospital or having received results, but all they can see is 'oh no, there's someone better looking than me in the world.' Honestly, so many women are so incredibly shallow and mean spirited. It's depressing.

Really ,Izzy if you take your valuation from other people you're always going to be dissapointed.

Back to my own yarn,The thing I didn't get is she's actually a very nice girl and not bad looking. I know her a good few years and I've never seen that behaviour before ,was . I was happy for my friend as he doesn't really get much attention from women and even though it wasn't going to happen between him and the other girl , IMO I thought she was the perfect lady .He brought her a drink ,she brought him out to dance and talked to him at various points of the night.It really made his night.

BumbleB

BumbleB wrote: »

Really ,Izzy is you take your valuation from other people you're always going to be dissapointed.

Eh, condescending much? I don't take my 'valuation' from other people. I'm very secure in myself. Does that mean I'm supposed to be oblivious to the catty comments and looks I receive? Does that mean I have to think that kind of behaviour is acceptable? I'm not even a sensitive person, as I said, I find it more irritating and pathetic than anything else, but given the topic of this thread, I decided to share some experiences. This catty, jealous behaviour is another reason I don't really like to be around women. It has nothing to do with wanting approval from other people, who the hell wants to be around people who make them feel bad about themselves? Who wants friends who can't stand it when you receive a compliment or something good happens to you? I genuinely just can't even get my head around that type of mentality. I have friends who are successful models, who do catwalk shows and compete in international competitions and it's never occurred to me to be anything but happy for them. I watched this girl in college get torn apart by almost everyone, just for the crime of being good looking and having a modelling contract. Why?

Back to my own yarn,The thing I didn't get is she's actually a very nice girl and not bad looking. I know her a good few years and I've never seen that behaviour before ,was . I was happy for my friend as he doesn't really get much attention from women and even though it wasn't going to happen between him and the other girl , IMO I thought she was the perfect lady .He brought her a drink ,she brought him out to dance and talked to him at various points of the night.It really made his night.

Well, that's the whole point. Even the most normal and otherwise nice girls sometimes behave like this. Perhaps this girl is used to being the good looking one in the group. Perhaps she was jealous of this girl. Perhaps she had a secret crush on the male friend. Who knows? But the point is, it was entirely your friend's problem. What she said had nothing to do with the girl she was talking about. You said yourself, she was pretty and seemed lovely. She didn't deserve the bile your friend was spewing. Your friend took her insecurities and issues and projected them onto some poor innocent girl she didn't even know. And this is the problem I have with a lot of women.

BumbleB

Manuel Crashing Senselessness wrote: »

Eh, condescending much? I don't take my 'valuation' from other people. I'm very secure in myself. Does that mean I'm supposed to be oblivious to the catty comments and looks I receive? Does that mean I have to think that kind of behaviour is acceptable? I'm not even a sensitive person, as I said, I find it more irritating and pathetic than anything else, but given the topic of this thread, I decided to share some experiences. This catty, jealous behaviour is another reason I don't really like to be around women. It has nothing to do with wanting approval from other people, who the hell wants to be around people who make them feel bad about themselves? Who wants friends who can't stand it when you receive a compliment or something good happens to you? I genuinely just can't even get my head around that type of mentality. I have friends who are successful models, who do catwalk shows and compete in international competitions and it's never occurred to me to be anything but happy for them. I watched this girl in college get torn apart by almost everyone, just for the crime of being good looking and having a modelling contract. Why?

Take it any way you want ,it wasn't meant as an attack on you , I phrased it as a P.O.V.

Well, that's the whole point. Even the most normal and otherwise nice girls sometimes behave like this. Perhaps this girl is used to being the good looking one in the group. Perhaps she was jealous of this girl. Perhaps she had a secret crush on the male friend. Who knows? But the point is, it was entirely your friend's problem. What she said had nothing to do with the girl she was talking about. You said yourself, she was pretty and seemed lovely. She didn't deserve the bile your friend was spewing. Your friend took her insecurities and issues and projected them onto some poor innocent girl she didn't even know. And this is the problem I have with a lot of women.

She approached him,he's a pretty shy bloke. I thought she was nice, yes her cleavage was pretty exhibited but thats her business ,she looked really good even so ,and was an uplifting person. She could have fcuked off and shifted some other guy when he bought her a drink ,but she didn't ,as many do.Respect in my book.:)

Silverfish

BumbleB wrote: »

Take it any way you want ,it wasn't meant as an attack on you , I phrased it as a P.O.V.





She approached him,he's a pretty shy bloke. I thought she was nice, yes her cleavage was pretty exhibited but thats her business ,she looked really good even so ,and was an uplifting person. She could have fcuked off and shifted some other guy when he bought her a drink ,but she didn't ,as many do.Respect in my book.:)

I'm not sure if you're missing the point or I'm missing the point, but why was your friend bitchy to this girl in your opinion?

I don't think Manuel Crashing Senselessness was having a go at the girl who was chatting to your friend, she was commenting on your female friend calling her a slut for no apparent reason.

BumbleB

BumbleB wrote: »

Take it any way you want ,it wasn't meant as an attack on you , I phrased it as a P.O.V.

I found it quite presumptuous, condescending and completely off topic, but fair enough.

She approached him,he's a pretty shy bloke. I thought she was nice, yes her cleavage was pretty exhibited but thats her business ,she looked really good even so ,and was an uplifting person. She could have fcuked off and shifted some other guy when he bought her a drink ,but she didn't ,as many do.Respect in my book.:)

It's a shame that a lot of women would have been nasty to her for wearing a low cut top, being pretty and *gasp* daring to approach a guy. I wonder if girls like your friend are aware that their comments usually just make them look petty and mean and don't reflect on the person they're talking about.