Women hating/disliking other women

BumbleB

Manuel Crashing Senselessness wrote: »

I found it quite presumptuous, condescending and completely off topic, but fair enough.

Why exactly ,would I want to make an assumption of someone I've never met in my entire life? .

It's a shame that a lot of women would have been nasty to her for wearing a low cut top, being pretty and *gasp* daring to approach a guy. I wonder if girls like your friend are aware that their comments usually just make them look petty and mean and don't reflect on the person they're talking about.

It did actually diminish my respect for her ,sad to say.:(

BumbleB

BumbleB wrote: »

Why exactly ,would I want to make an assumption of someone I've never met in my entire life? .

You tell me, you did it. I wrote an entire paragraph about women who are horrible for no reason and all you took from it was that I need other people's approval to feel good about myself. I never said or implied anything of the sort. I said it was depressing and annoying that so many women behave in that way.

BumbleB

Manuel Crashing Senselessness wrote: »

You tell me, you did it. I wrote an entire paragraph about women who are horrible for no reason and all you took from it was that I need other people's approval to feel good about myself. I never said or implied anything of the sort. I said it was depressing and annoying that so many women behave in that way.

Well I like to see the good in stuff ,thats the person I am.

What I meant was if you take your valuation from other people youre going to be dissappointed?.

The original transcript had is instead of if ,that was a typo error.

Now that you have clarified that you don't take your valuation from other people ,which is great what exactly is the issue? .I'm not apologising for having an opinion.

I do realise in hindsight I shouldn't have addressed your username in the first person .On with the discussion.......

BumbleB

BumbleB wrote: »

Well I like to see the good in stuff ,thats the person I am.

What I meant was if you take your valuation from other people youre going to be dissappointed?.

The original transcript had is instead of if ,that was a typo error.

Well, thanks for pointing that out, because I never would have guessed otherwise. I really am that thick.

Now that you have clarified that you don't take your valuation from other people ,which is great what exactly is the issue? .I'm not apologising for having an opinion.

I do realise in hindsight I shouldn't have addressed your username in the first person .On with the discussion.......

But can you not see how it's quite condescending? You basically dismissed everything I said and implied I was just too sensitive. It doesn't matter whether you used 'if' or not, why would you even make a suggestion like that? Why would it even enter your head if you weren't jumping to conclusions? I'm not here to argue with you, but I think you made a crazy leap of logic.

Stheno

I find this whole discussion interesting.

My entire professional life with the exception of one six month period I have worked in male dominated (90%+) environments.

The one period where I worked in a female dominated environment I struggled, there was endless chit chat, when one went shopping, the contents of one's shopping were investigated and discussed, and the social life revolved around makeup parties and nights at the wine bar.

Completely different to men's nights out in the pub out pinting each other with little or not real interaction.

Both were equally bitchy environments, with one small difference, the men were direct about their bitchiness whilst the women were not.

I still work in male dominated environments and now recognise the behaviour of male bitchs so to speak, but it's nothing compared to women who are out to get other women. It's more direct, and more confrontational as opposed to the whispering campaigns that imo women engate in

Kooli

I'm another one who went from an all-girl school to a majority-female college course and work environment. I definitely noticed the bitchy thing in school, but I know that boys school have their fair share of horrible bullying too, they're not necessarily better off.

What I find interesting about the OP's point, and the linked article, is the idea that "anything associated with woman is jeer-worthy". Like the OP I feel sad when women (particularly on boards) declare their 'non-girliness' as a point of pride. It happens a lot in this particular forum.

Women are always proud to say they were tomboys as kids, that they preferred climbing trees to playing house, that they preferred GI Joe to Barbie, that they never wore dresses etc. It's like a badge of honur. And as I've said in other threads, I have no problem with reporting this as fact, but it's the underlying tone that this is something to be proud of. I see it as an internalisation of the idea that to be a woman/girl is somehow 'lesser'. You would never see a man boasting that he actually preferred dolls as a kid. He would admit it sheepishly, but it wouldn't be something we're supposed to admire.

And it continues now, with the example given of women saying they don't get on with other women, that they prefer a pint and football to a cup of tea and a gossip. Again, I've no problem with the preference itself, but only when there's a sense of disdain for anything typically 'womany' underlying it.

Why is it 'cool' for a woman to identify more with men or male pursuits, but not the other way around?

I also think women's 'bitchiness' is regularly overstated, or maybe that's just been my personal experience (since I left my teens anyway - god those days were awful!). As has been said already in this thread, yes women are usually more bitchy than men, but men have other qualities that are equally nasty but different. But we don't seem to talk about these qualities all the time like we do women's bitchiness. So this gives the impression that bitchiness in women is more common than say, over-competitiveness, alpha-male bullying, or constant excessive put-downs in men. And I don't think it is.

OK phew, enough rambling!

But this is a really interesting discussion, I'm enjoying it!

panda100

I really didn't like the examples used in The Guardian, and didn't think it was a great article over all. People,be they men or women,young or old,will say mean or nasty things about each other. I don't think women are particularly targeted in this way.

However, I do agree with her that women can have much more offensive lableeling attatched to their charcter and that is sexist. Womens can be whores, sluts,slag,bunny-boilers,hag,bitch,frigid,ho.....the list is endless. I hear all these offensvie labels attached to women on a day to day basis, but hardly ever attached to men. These terms are not gender-neutral and that in itself says aeons about soceitys attitude to women and sex.

"Belligerent women will be replaced by docile ones, or by men. So I say nothing, and we cling to our tenuous position and retain the privilege of working alongside the people whose "casual" sexism is nothing less than an integral part of a society steeped in contempt for women."
I think this really is the crux of the whole article.
While belligerent men are tolerated in our society, belligerent women are not. Its considered 'unladylike'.


Anyways,on the thread title I have to admit that I think its a bit of a myth this women hating/disliking other women thing. The media really jump on it, especially every time a good looking female celebrity,Megan Fox for example, says she has no female friends.
Im sure there is just as many good looking male actors who have no male friends but we never hear about that do we,unless their gay of course.

I went to all girl schools for both primary and secondary school. I made fantastic friends there and we always had great comradery together. At the moment I work in an all-female environment and we're always bringing in little treats for each other and having a good laugh.

In general I find that there are both nasty men and women out there and I do my best to stay clear from both. Its got nowt to do with the gender, and everything to do with the person.

Boxoffrogs

Kooli wrote: »

I'm another one who went from an all-girl school to a majority-female college course and work environment. I definitely noticed the bitchy thing in school, but I know that boys school have their fair share of horrible bullying too, they're not necessarily better off.

What I find interesting about the OP's point, and the linked article, is the idea that "anything associated with woman is jeer-worthy". Like the OP I feel sad when women (particularly on boards) declare their 'non-girliness' as a point of pride. It happens a lot in this particular forum.

Women are always proud to say they were tomboys as kids, that they preferred climbing trees to playing house, that they preferred GI Joe to Barbie, that they never wore dresses etc. It's like a badge of honur. And as I've said in other threads, I have no problem with reporting this as fact, but it's the underlying tone that this is something to be proud of. I see it as an internalisation of the idea that to be a woman/girl is somehow 'lesser'. You would never see a man boasting that he actually preferred dolls as a kid. He would admit it sheepishly, but it wouldn't be something we're supposed to admire.

And it continues now, with the example given of women saying they don't get on with other women, that they prefer a pint and football to a cup of tea and a gossip. Again, I've no problem with the preference itself, but only when there's a sense of disdain for anything typically 'womany' underlying it.

Why is it 'cool' for a woman to identify more with men or male pursuits, but not the other way around?

I also think women's 'bitchiness' is regularly overstated, or maybe that's just been my personal experience (since I left my teens anyway - god those days were awful!). As has been said already in this thread, yes women are usually more bitchy than men, but men have other qualities that are equally nasty but different. But we don't seem to talk about these qualities all the time like we do women's bitchiness. So this gives the impression that bitchiness in women is more common than say, over-competitiveness, alpha-male bullying, or constant excessive put-downs in men. And I don't think it is.

OK phew, enough rambling!

But this is a really interesting discussion, I'm enjoying it!

I'm not sure what you mean when you use the term non-girliness. Does climbing a tree make you less of a girl? I hardly think so. Nor would I abandoning your skates to have a go on your brothers dangerously modified BMX make you any less so. I thought we had left behind the days of categorising activities as either male or female? I enjoyed lots of tomboy (I hate that phrase, belongs in the dark ages) activities, but equally I loved clothes and dressing up and when I got a little older, I loved experimenting with make-up. I'm not sure why you would feel sad about that. It's neither cool nor uncool. I'd never expect anyone to big me up or see me as superior in anyway just because I like to engage in something which would in the past have been seen as a male pursuit.

But I see no correlation between the rise of the 'tomboy' and women viewing others in a negative way. The bitchy women I've known will have a pop at just about anyone whether they are meek/confident/girly/tomboy and they themselves can fall into any category. Bitching has less to do with the faults or traits of the victim and more to do with the perpetrator's insecurities.

I agree that incidences of bitchiness are probably overstated. Maybe because nasty comments will stick in our head a lot more than nice ones, even though we shouldn't really allow that. Add to that, you will often see women congregate to have a bitching session so we may notice more the bitch than we do the neutral/nice person and I really do believe that the former are in the minority.

Orla K

diddledum wrote: »

Bitching has less to do with the faults or traits of the victim and more to do with the perpetrator's insecurities.

You just made me wonder, what are the reasons for someone being a bitchy type of person? I don't know if the only reason for someone acting like this is just because of insecurities but are their other reasons?

Boxoffrogs

Orla K wrote: »

You just made me wonder, what are the reasons for someone being a bitchy type of person? I don't know if the only reason for someone acting like this is just because of insecurities but are their other reasons?

I suppose I like most of us will surmise that the reason is a person's insecurities. And if you call someone on a comment, you can sometimes get them to admit it. Recently I did so with a friend, she had gone to meet a friend of hers for lunch, this friend had been away travelling for a year and had returned home looking great. I asked her about her lunch and she made a few bitchy comments. She later admitted to me she had been jealous because this girl, as she put it, "looked so f*ckin happy". It's only one example and anecdotal, but I don't think it takes a massive leap to arrive at this conclusion.

There may however be other reasons or excuses, do you know of any?

Ickle Magoo

Orla K wrote: »

You just made me wonder, what are the reasons for someone being a bitchy type of person? I don't know if the only reason for someone acting like this is just because of insecurities but are their other reasons?

I think there can be lots of reasons. I've known people to be bitchy out of jealousy or insecurity, self-aggrandisement, snobbery - both direct and inverse, nervousness, foul mood, personality clash, etc, etc, etc.

If someone is consistently bitchy about everyone else then they clearly have their own issues, perhaps putting others down makes them feel a bit bigger - a kind of indirect bullying?

Kooli

diddledum wrote: »

I'm not sure what you mean when you use the term non-girliness. Does climbing a tree make you less of a girl? I hardly think so.

No, but it makes you less of a 'girly' girl. By girly, I mean interested in traditionally/stereotypically female pursuits.

My point is simply that it is often a point of pride to say you are 'not girly'. It is often taken as a compliment to be told that you are 'not a typical girl'. That's my issue! There definitely is a belief that it's 'cool' to be like the lads, and more interested in 'blokey' things.

And this just simply does not go the opposite direction. It is not seen as an admirable thing for men to admit they're 'not typical men' or 'not really into bloke's stuff'. I'm not saying men don't ever say that, but they definitely don't say it as often or as proudly as the women who constantly say the opposite. As the OP said, there are frequent examples on this very forum of women proudly saying how much they defy gender stereotypes. And again, to clarify, my problem isn't the fact that they defy the stereotypes, it's the fact that it is seen as a positive thing not to be a 'typical woman'.

This to me says that we (women) are buying into the notion that things associated with women are things that we should distance ourselves from.

sabatier

I'm a female working in a male-dominated organisation (and profession - software development). In the past couple of months, more women have joined the company, and I have noticed that I distance myself from them because they annoy me. It seems to be an inherent prejudice I have towards other women or something, but I can't stand it when other females try to be friends with me based on some kind of shared interest / sisterhood thing. It really annoys me but I don't know why!

Boxoffrogs

Kooli wrote: »

No, but it makes you less of a 'girly' girl. By girly, I mean interested in traditionally/stereotypically female pursuits.

My point is simply that it is often a point of pride to say you are 'not girly'. It is often taken as a compliment to be told that you are 'not a typical girl'. That's my issue! There definitely is a belief that it's 'cool' to be like the lads, and more interested in 'blokey' things.

And this just simply does not go the opposite direction. It is not seen as an admirable thing for men to admit they're 'not typical men' or 'not really into bloke's stuff'. I'm not saying men don't ever say that, but they definitely don't say it as often or as proudly as the women who constantly say the opposite. As the OP said, there are frequent examples on this very forum of women proudly saying how much they defy gender stereotypes. And again, to clarify, my problem isn't the fact that they defy the stereotypes, it's the fact that it is seen as a positive thing not to be a 'typical woman'.

This to me says that we (women) are buying into the notion that things associated with women are things that we should distance ourselves from.

Maybe the problem is the stereotyping itself. I think that you are making the assumption that a female might be just participating in an activity purely on the basis that it is seen as a male dominated activity and therefore will somehow set them apart from other females. I don't think this is the case. I certainly wouldn't look for kudos for let's say getting involved in athletics, something which was largely dominated by males until recent times. Likewise, if I watch sport, it's for my own enjoyment, not because I'm hoping for a pat on the back for setting myself apart from the non-sport watching females.

Do you find women in this forum saying that they get involved in an activity solely to appear non-girly? My thinking is that they do it more for their own enjoyment.

The 'typical woman' will change from generation to generation, maybe the stereotypes need updating.

Kooli

diddledum wrote: »

Maybe the problem is the stereotyping itself. I think that you are making the assumption that a female might be just participating in an activity purely on the basis that it is seen as a male dominated activity and therefore will somehow set them apart from other females. I don't think this is the case. I certainly wouldn't look for kudos for let's say getting involved in athletics, something which was largely dominated by males until recent times. Likewise, if I watch sport, it's for my own enjoyment, not because I'm hoping for a pat on the back for setting myself apart from the non-sport watching females.

Do you find women in this forum saying that they get involved in an activity solely to appear non-girly? My thinking is that they do it more for their own enjoyment.

The 'typical woman' will change from generation to generation, maybe the stereotypes need updating.

No my issue isn't anything to do with the motivations behind the activities - I don't doubt their genuineness at all.

My issue is about how we speak about masculinity and femininity. Language is a powerful thing, and speaking about femininity with disdain perpetuates the message that being a 'typical woman' is not something to aspire to or be proud of.

If men could speak as proudly about being 'not typical blokes', then I wouldn't have an issue.

It's a language thing. (I have similar issues with language such as 'don't be such a girl', 'have some balls', 'be a man' etc.). I think language carries so much implicit information about what we value, who has power etc. and this is just one manifestation of that.

Boxoffrogs

Kooli wrote: »

No my issue isn't anything to do with the motivations behind the activities - I don't doubt their genuineness at all.

My issue is about how we speak about masculinity and femininity. Language is a powerful thing, and speaking about femininity with disdain perpetuates the message that being a 'typical woman' is not something to aspire to or be proud of.

If men could speak as proudly about being 'not typical blokes', then I wouldn't have an issue.

It's a language thing. (I have similar issues with language such as 'don't be such a girl', 'have some balls', 'be a man' etc.). I think language carries so much implicit information about what we value, who has power etc. and this is just one manifestation of that.

I agree with a lot of what you say above regarding language. I think you can discern a lot from what we say at times but equally comments can be 'throw away' or no real indicator of our beliefs.

I love being female, embrace it whole heartedly, but it's possible to feel that way and still not be entirely satisfied just to engage in the 'typically female' pursuits.

I don't disagree with you that we should not be viewed as lesser individuals if we stick to more traditional activities, but I'm simply saying that I think someone discussing their likes/activities is mostly not meant as a put down to others who don't. Maybe we need to expand the remit for what constitutes feminine in our society and then maybe we can all get back to celebrating our femininity.

K-9

Kooli wrote: »

No my issue isn't anything to do with the motivations behind the activities - I don't doubt their genuineness at all.

My issue is about how we speak about masculinity and femininity. Language is a powerful thing, and speaking about femininity with disdain perpetuates the message that being a 'typical woman' is not something to aspire to or be proud of.

If men could speak as proudly about being 'not typical blokes', then I wouldn't have an issue.

It's a language thing. (I have similar issues with language such as 'don't be such a girl', 'have some balls', 'be a man' etc.). I think language carries so much implicit information about what we value, who has power etc. and this is just one manifestation of that.

Plenty of men are happy and proud of not being "typical blokes". Suppose it depends on what you mean by that.

I'd say disdain for femininity is very much a minority thing. I don't see it that regularly myself, but maybe I'm not aware of it.

Kooli

Kooli wrote: »

No, but it makes you less of a 'girly' girl. By girly, I mean interested in traditionally/stereotypically female pursuits.

My point is simply that it is often a point of pride to say you are 'not girly'. It is often taken as a compliment to be told that you are 'not a typical girl'. That's my issue! There definitely is a belief that it's 'cool' to be like the lads, and more interested in 'blokey' things.

I don't agree with you at all. I think there's just as much, or more pressure from the girly girls. I was made to feel like a total freak right up until I was in my twenties for not liking heels or nail polish or make-up. I remember turning up to some event (it wasn't an overly formal event) in what I thought was a nice outfit, simple jeans and a plain top, and some girl sarcastically saying 'well YOU made a lot of effort, didn't you?' I really did feel judged as less of a woman for not being into girly things. I'm much more girly now, but I still feel it to some extent. I do think that SOME girls who are more tomboyish wear it like a badge of pride and feel superior to others, but I think it definitely goes both ways.

Orla K

I think the girly girl, and what is femininity? needs another thread, it's an interesting topic.
On the what's classed as feminine I think that it's just historicly (and stereotypicly) they're isn't much room for varying interests where as historicly/stereotypicaly guys have a much wider range of things to be interested in. Also why shouldn't women be proud of their typically male interests as well as their girly ones.

BumbleB

Kooli wrote: »

ineness at all.

If men could speak as proudly about being 'not typical blokes', then I wouldn't have an issue.

I dont know exactly what this comment is about ,but to reiterate K9, many men are not "typical blokes " .I'm not a typical bloke and I'm proud of being different and not following the crowd.


BTW what is a typical bloke by your understanding ? and what exactly is mascalinity or femininity ?.

Ectoplasm

sabatier wrote: »

I'm a female working in a male-dominated organisation (and profession - software development). In the past couple of months, more women have joined the company, and I have noticed that I distance myself from them because they annoy me. It seems to be an inherent prejudice I have towards other women or something, but I can't stand it when other females try to be friends with me based on some kind of shared interest / sisterhood thing. It really annoys me but I don't know why!

I found this a really interesting response. You automatically assume that they are trying to be friends with you based on 'shared interest/sisterhood', yet if it was a new man in the office you don't make assumptions? In any new work environment I'd try to be friendly to my new colleagues. I wouldn't seek a woman out simply because she's a woman - it's because I now work with her and shockingly enough would assume that we do have a shared interest - we'd be working in the same field.

I think you're spot on when you say you have an inherent prejudice, but I'm pretty curious as to why you have it? Did you enjoy being one of the few women working there? Is there some reason why a new woman shouldn't want to be friendly with you as opposed to a new man? Really I'm genuinely curious.

Kooli

BumbleB wrote: »

I dont know exactly what this comment is about ,.

What I meant was it is less likely that you would see posts from men proudly stating the following:

"I'm actually not into football at all. I just love having my mates around for a cup of tea"

"I was never into trucks or sports when I was a kid, I loved playing with dolls and with my easy-bake oven"

"God I hate when my mates talk about sport, it bores me sooooo much, I just love to talk about relationships and friends and stuff"

Whereas you often see the following posts from women on boards:

"I never liked dolls when I was a kid, I loved playing with my brother's lego"

"I actually way prefer the company of men, they're just so much easier to get along with"

"God I hate when my mates talk about relationships or shopping, sometimes I despair of my gender"

Maybe they're not good examples, but it's the tone where it's a point of pride for a woman to say she is not a typical woman, and has more in common with men.

It is not a point of pride for a man to say he is more like a woman.

And I know there are exceptions, but the general discourse that seeps through our culture is that traditionally 'feminine' pursuits or characteristics are fair game for belittling or jeering. Not so for traditionally 'masculine'.

So again, to clarify, I don't have an issue with women defying gender stereotypes, or being proud of having interests that are typically male. I just don't like when it comes across that they are proud of these interests because they are typically male.

metrovelvet

The male model is the default . The female, the particular.

Vive la deferance.

Ickle Magoo

I don't think it's so much a point of pride at not being like a woman, as a woman I'd consider everything I do to be like a woman - whether that be painting my nails or changing a car tyre. I think it's just an acceptance of recognised phraseology; "girly-girl" conjures a very specific vacuous, materialistic, precious image. I don't think "girly-girls" are typical, I think they are an exaggerated caricature - the female version of "a man's man". Even more girly than a girl.

When trying to get across a certain point without going into swathes of exceptions and footnotes, people understand the phrases "girly-girl" and "tom-boy".

Btw, I said I thought men were easier to get along with and in my experience they are - I'm not sure what pride or femininity has to do with that. I've never had anything like the volume of abuse, bitching, back-stabbing or whatever from males as I have females. I also think there is absolutely as much pressure on men and their pursuits as women - ask any man who isn't into contact or competitive sports.

Boxoffrogs

Kooli wrote: »

What I meant was it is less likely that you would see posts from men proudly stating the following:

"I'm actually not into football at all. I just love having my mates around for a cup of tea"

"I was never into trucks or sports when I was a kid, I loved playing with dolls and with my easy-bake oven"

"God I hate when my mates talk about sport, it bores me sooooo much, I just love to talk about relationships and friends and stuff"

Whereas you often see the following posts from women on boards:

"I never liked dolls when I was a kid, I loved playing with my brother's lego"

"I actually way prefer the company of men, they're just so much easier to get along with"

"God I hate when my mates talk about relationships or shopping, sometimes I despair of my gender"

Maybe they're not good examples, but it's the tone where it's a point of pride for a woman to say she is not a typical woman, and has more in common with men.

It is not a point of pride for a man to say he is more like a woman.

And I know there are exceptions, but the general discourse that seeps through our culture is that traditionally 'feminine' pursuits or characteristics are fair game for belittling or jeering. Not so for traditionally 'masculine'.

So again, to clarify, I don't have an issue with women defying gender stereotypes, or being proud of having interests that are typically male. I just don't like when it comes across that they are proud of these interests because they are typically male.

And I think therein lies the problem or at least the perceived one, it's not distancing yourself from your gender to say that you don't like 'x' and you would prefer to talk about or indulge in 'y' but that 'x' is viewed as the typically female and 'y' is viewed as typically male.

BumbleB

Kooli wrote: »

What I meant was it is less likely that you would see posts from men proudly stating the following:

"I'm actually not into football at all. I just love having my mates around for a cup of tea"

"I was never into trucks or sports when I was a kid, I loved playing with dolls and with my easy-bake oven"

"God I hate when my mates talk about sport, it bores me sooooo much, I just love to talk about relationships and friends and stuff"

Whereas you often see the following posts from women on boards:

"I never liked dolls when I was a kid, I loved playing with my brother's lego"

"I actually way prefer the company of men, they're just so much easier to get along with"

"God I hate when my mates talk about relationships or shopping, sometimes I despair of my gender"

Maybe they're not good examples, but it's the tone where it's a point of pride for a woman to say she is not a typical woman, and has more in common with men.

It is not a point of pride for a man to say he is more like a woman.

And I know there are exceptions, but the general discourse that seeps through our culture is that traditionally 'feminine' pursuits or characteristics are fair game for belittling or jeering. Not so for traditionally 'masculine'.

So again, to clarify, I don't have an issue with women defying gender stereotypes, or being proud of having interests that are typically male. I just don't like when it comes across that they are proud of these interests because they are typically male.

Now that you clarified that ,its a really interesting point .Some gay men are like that.

Another point is, I work with a lot of lads who openly tell their male friends they like to cook ,they bake cakes frequently and put on an apron and knead dough.

The straight man doesn't express his feminine interests because even as an adult he could get the crap kicked out of him.

IMO everybody seems to want to move towards a more matriarchal society and is happening little by little.And society is also attempting to feminise men.

I'm not afraid to admit that I can knit, iron and sew extremely well.I also had Irish dancing lessons when I was younger and can cook.I learned that all out my sis home economics book.

To me I see those things as essential.I think that home economics should be made compulsory for guys as a subject.

Maguined

I hated sports as a kid and proudly declared my love of all things nerdy, which was not considered masculine or positive. Though as an adult I now like some sports, rugby and mma fighting but I still detest football with a fiery Passion.

I also love to cook though cooking for other people makes me nervous but I actually find cooking for myself great fun and sometimes even therapeutic.

No one has ever commented on this making me less masculine just as a women who says she feels more in common with a man has never been labelled as less feminine in my experience.

I don't think its fair to say society as a whole judges masculine traits as positive and feminine traits as negative, it has always been even split in my experience, men view feminine traits as negative and women view masculine traits as negative. As a boy (even at 28 I still don't view myself as a grown up man) I have often viewed feminine traits in either a man or woman as negative, emotional sensitivity etc, while I have also been judged negatively by others as being arrogant, aggressive and insensitive.

sabatier

EMF2010 wrote: »

I found this a really interesting response. You automatically assume that they are trying to be friends with you based on 'shared interest/sisterhood', yet if it was a new man in the office you don't make assumptions? In any new work environment I'd try to be friendly to my new colleagues. I wouldn't seek a woman out simply because she's a woman - it's because I now work with her and shockingly enough would assume that we do have a shared interest - we'd be working in the same field.

I think you're spot on when you say you have an inherent prejudice, but I'm pretty curious as to why you have it? Did you enjoy being one of the few women working there? Is there some reason why a new woman shouldn't want to be friendly with you as opposed to a new man? Really I'm genuinely curious.

I wasn't entirely clear in my previous post. I should have said that I get annoyed with other women who are obviously attempting to be friendly with me based on the fact that we're female in a male-dominated environment. Typically annoying behaviour would be "lets put girly trinkets in the ladies loo for all the women to put their bits and bobs in", or "lets arrange a tea and cakes afternoon for all the women in the organisation".

I don't know why, but this 'sisterhood' thing is what annoys me. I have no problem with anyone wanting to be my friend in any other circumstances.

panda100

Maguined wrote: »

I don't think its fair to say society as a whole judges masculine traits as positive and feminine traits as negative, it has always been even split in my experience, men view feminine traits as negative and women view masculine traits as negative. As a boy (even at 28 I still don't view myself as a grown up man) I have often viewed feminine traits in either a man or woman as negative, emotional sensitivity etc, while I have also been judged negatively by others as being arrogant, aggressive and insensitive.

I think the problem arises when a women adopts stereotypical 'masculine' traits or a man 'feminine' traits. The whole concept of what is 'feminine' and what is 'masculine' is damaging to how we as men and women live.

Its not fair that we have to grow up with so much hostility to our self expression.

Men can not be themselves and speak out in fear of being a 'pussy', and women are denied the ability to fight,argue or want to be in control.
The result is we have men committing suicide because they can't be themselves, and for women we become passive aggressive and sneaky because society doesn't allow us to be openly aggressive.

Maguined

panda100 wrote: »

I think the problem arises when a women adopts stereotypical 'masculine' traits or a man 'feminine' traits. The whole concept of what is 'feminine' and what is 'masculine' is damaging to how we as men and women live.

Its not fair that we have to grow up with so much hostility to our self expression.

Men can not be themselves and speak out in fear of being a 'pussy', and women are denied the ability to fight,argue or want to be in control.
The result is we have men committing suicide because they can't be themselves, and for women we become passive aggressive and sneaky because society doesn't allow us to be openly aggressive.

I think it depends on what we mean by traits and it was probably my fault for using such a vague term in my post. Initially we were talking about activities, I genuinely have never seen women get negative reactions for engaging in "masculine" activities and hobbies, sports, cars, computer games etc, yes there may be comments that it is unusual "omg you are a girl!" but that is more to how it might be less common for women to like these activities but never was it implied that liking these activities makes them any less a woman. Just as no one has ever implied I am less a man because I like to cook.

If we are talking about expressing ourselves then yes i think there is a difference in the genders, men who express their feelings more openly might get labelled a "pussy" and women who express open aggression or competition might get labelled "bitches" but i think these affect both genders evenly while it was suggested it was more skewed and one sided in this thread.

BumbleB

panda100 wrote: »

I think the problem arises when a women adopts stereotypical 'masculine' traits or a man 'feminine' traits. The whole concept of what is 'feminine' and what is 'masculine' is damaging to how we as men and women live.

Wouldn't agree for everything there is a polar opposite for everythung ,its the yin and the yang .

Look at the way things work ,right from a baby first breath there are being molded according to their gender. Pink for girls ,blue for boys. The kids are being brainwashed into accepting certain characteristics unbeknown to them according to their sexes.Exact same with religion. We accept that of which we have no proof.

Its scary when you think of it.

Those who go against the grain are then ignored or cast out because the system has been set up in such a way that independent thinking is discouraged and because the programming has been so effective with all the people within the matrix ,(Even with kids odf 3 !!!)that the person who previously did not conform will have no choice but to follow the rest of the people.

So, If Johnny wants to play with barbie ,teacher will say Johnny ,boys dont play with barbies ,theres a machine gun or There's Gi Joe and tank bring Barbie for a spin.

Its not fair that we have to grow up with so much hostility to our self expression.

Thats kind of an Irish thing and not gender specific at all ,I mean if you are a little bit different in Ireland you are ostracised .I remember a thread a while ago where a girl said most guys who wear trilby' s look gay.People have their own opinions about stuff in Ireland and they like to voice it.I mean whats their problem ?. You can wear a cowboy hat walking in NY and people dont bat an eyelid.

Men can not be themselves and speak out in fear of being a 'pussy', and women are denied the ability to fight,argue or want to be in control.

I think people who work in places that have pretty good working relationships can pretty much say what they want to their peers.BTW if you cant speak out because of fear of being a pussy ,then you are not really being a man.

The result is we have men committing suicide because they can't be themselves, and for women we become passive aggressive and sneaky because society doesn't allow us to be openly aggressive.

Men are committing suicide because of deeper issues than that IMO like having big families and no way out during these times.I doubt men are doing so because they can't wear a tutu down o'connell street.

thebower

Thank you for your comments & also for including the article which I think articulates a lot of the anger felt by feminists like myself. For me the personal is political and I continue to live my life with an awareness of the underlying misogyny which is everywhere. As the article suggests it is up to us women to become more aware both from a personal perspective, and also to speak up to those who behave in such a fashioon

DA365

I think by and large women are just very competitive in a lot of things they do.

To be honest, there are some things guys just dont care if there is someone better at it than they are . . but it's soooo different with women in my experience.

Don't mean to generalise but I do realise that's exactly what I just did

Eve_Dublin

There's another discussion on this forum regarding the new Nike campaign and had a little think about it and I think this is exactly what were talking about here....this advert appeals to the "biitchy" side to some female's personalities. There's some girls who love to see another woman put down for a confidence boost.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055989309

nicegirl

SOME girls can be absolute b*tches, and there are some then who are rare that are really good, and genuine. Its a matter of finding the good girls from the nasty ones.

PS I didn't read the entire thread

wasp2010

Woah U guys have all nailed it down!!! And interestingly thats the way it is...
I do not believe in stereotypes, its hurtful!!!....the female gender shouldnt be labelled...is there a word that could be used to qualify a group of individual women who are downright mean and nasty????

SAD TRUTH IS SOME WOMEN ARE BITCHES!!! :o:o Pls Pardon my french....psychological profiling of such women says their insecurities are deeply entangled thus clouding all sound and logic judgement...they have created their own reality as the self loathing amazon queen, they have no empathy, no self respect, little or no self worth, morally handicapped perhaps it has a thing or two to do with their upbringing, their childhood and their frame of mind....stems from the kind of company they keep/kept, societal gender conditioning and the behaviours they experienced while growing up.....Some women are just bitter and jealous!!! End of point...no need to make excuses for them, no need to think about them and their childish antics, cos they have nothing better to do....

The only hope for such women is self actualization and TRUE LOVE!! perhaps they need a series of lesson in ethics and moral behaviour..:cool: And no one is beyond change!!

LittleBook

Kooli wrote: »

And I know there are exceptions, but the general discourse that seeps through our culture is that traditionally 'feminine' pursuits or characteristics are fair game for belittling or jeering. Not so for traditionally 'masculine'.

Actually, the only "masculine" trait I can think of which is used negatively is "butch" when describing certain lesbian women.

Kooli wrote: »

It is not a point of pride for a man to say he is more like a woman.

I'm reminded of this quote from "The Cement Garden":

Girls can wear jeans and cut their hair short and wear shirts and boots because it's okay to be a boy; for girls it's like promotion. But for a boy to look like a girl is degrading, according to you, because secretly you believe that being a girl is degrading.

Feeona

I've been to many hens and I've noticed how bitchy things can get, usually on the second night. It's usually bitchy comments about the women who don't go around saying 'Oh your shoes are gorgeous' and all that fake camaraderie that seems to be a hallmark of the first night of a hen.* The bitchiness will start with a few casual comments such as 'Rachel seems really quiet, doesn't she?', wait for agreement from other women that 'yes Rachel IS quiet'. Following this, the comments will get more and more bitchier, until it's just plain old bitching
I think women who do this kind of covert bitching are really insecure ie 'Rachel didn't say anything about my shoes, even though everyone else did. Ergo, my shoes must be awful. I know, I'll quietly devalue her status so I don't care if she likes my shoes or not!' Problem solved :rolleyes:

I notice it more on hens, because usually not everyone on the hen knows each other. I really believe it's insecurity on the woman's part if she starts bitching about another woman-she sees the other woman as competition. And as metrovelvet succinctly put it, women really have no other globally acceptable way of competing



*Obviously, the camaraderie ISN'T fake if bitching doesn't take place after!

Feeona

thebower wrote: »

underlying misogyny which is everywhere.

After Hours springs to mind. I think misogyny arises out of fear, or out of a misplaced feeling of entitlement.

panda100

wasp2010 wrote: »

SAD TRUTH IS SOME WOMEN ARE BITCHES!!! :o:o !!

And so are some men! You can't confine meaness and nasty behaviour to one gender,Its just not fair. Why do people project their bad,isolated experiences with women onto an entire gender?

I was thinking of this thread yesterday when I was listening to Limerick's LIVE 95fm news, yes NEWS :rolleyes:
There was a bulletin saying it will be handbags at dawn when Christine Bleakly and Grainne Seoige have to sit on the some couch presenting some new show for ITV. I think this exemplifies the underlying mysoginy that others alluded to on this thread.
There is no eveidence to suggest these women do not like each other, or will not get on. Yet the media love hamming up this women as freminies angle.I can't believe this mysoginstic non-story actually made the Limerick news!

DA365

panda100 wrote: »

And so are some men! You can't confine meaness and nasty behaviour to one gender,Its just not fair. Why do people project their bad,isolated experiences with women onto an entire gender?

This thread's not about men though

There is a very powerful natural competition between women in social situations, it's noticeable everywhere imo.

Maguined

LittleBook wrote: »

Girls can wear jeans and cut their hair short and wear shirts and boots because it's okay to be a boy; for girls it's like promotion. But for a boy to look like a girl is degrading, according to you, because secretly you believe that being a girl is degrading.

I would not agree with this quote at all, jeans and short hair are not inherently masculine or boyish but it is the cut and shape of them. Women's jeans are feminine in my eyes because they are shaped to a woman's body so when I view a woman in jeans and short hair she does not look masculine to me at all. The same is whenever I see a man with long hair, I see plenty of rockers and metal fans that like long hair and I do not think it makes them feminine looking.

Kooli

Maguined wrote: »

I would not agree with this quote at all, jeans and short hair are not inherently masculine or boyish but it is the cut and shape of them. Women's jeans are feminine in my eyes because they are shaped to a woman's body so when I view a woman in jeans and short hair she does not look masculine to me at all. The same is whenever I see a man with long hair, I see plenty of rockers and metal fans that like long hair and I do not think it makes them feminine looking.

But ignoring the specifics of the quote (or replacing them with things that you do see as traditionally masculine or feminine) do you still disagree with the truth of it?

I think it captures exactly what I was trying to say in my earlier long rambling posts!!

YFlyer

panda100 wrote: »

I can't believe this mysoginstic non-story actually made the Limerick news!

I can. Its the same circle of people that are involved in the Limerick Post.

Maguined

Kooli wrote: »

But ignoring the specifics of the quote (or replacing them with things that you do see as traditionally masculine or feminine) do you still disagree with the truth of it?

I think it captures exactly what I was trying to say in my earlier long rambling posts!!

Generally yes I would disagree with it as I do not think the average man views being a woman as degrading, they can view it as different to being a man and this can change some interaction but it has never been viewed as degrading in my experience.

Traditionally masculine or feminine things are normally just statistical trends and do not affect my perceptions of people, weightlifting would probably be considered pretty masculine as more men than women tend to do it however I would not view any woman who did it as less of a woman or less feminine, similarly my Dad likes gardening and our back garden is full of different coloured flowers in arranged displays which most people would associate as a feminine hobby however I do not think this makes my Dad any less of a man or less masculine.

BumbleB

At the LL beers last night ,I was talking to a girl and she decided to rest her legs on my knee. The reaction from the girls around was spontaneous ,she told me she was getting funny looks from some of them . I could not believe it.I dont know what it was about because everybody was so friendly.

(Does not compute) ..

Maguined

I would not assume strange looks is dislike or hatred towards the woman in question.

It could simply have been a look of shock, amusement or encouragement, I know if I was at the beers and saw that I would probably look amused as I would find it entertaining to watch.

I would honestly doubt there would be ladies loungers looking on with dislike or hatred towards a girl with her legs on your knee BumbleB.

BumbleB

Maguined wrote: »

I would not assume strange looks is dislike or hatred towards the woman in question.

It could simply have been a look of shock, amusement or encouragement, I know if I was at the beers and saw that I would probably look amused as I would find it entertaining to watch.

I would honestly doubt there would be ladies loungers looking on with dislike or hatred towards a girl with her legs on your knee BumbleB.

Thanks ,I thought so as much myself .Don't get me wrong I didn't say dirty looks ,just funny looks.:).Just found it a bit odd and funny.

Eve_Dublin

BumbleB wrote: »

Thanks ,I thought so as much myself .I didn't say dirty looks ,funny looks.:)

We love a bit of scandal and something juicy to discuss. That's not a stereotype, that's a fact.