Unmarried fathers rights, custody and visitation.

LegacyUser

The Corinthian wrote: »

Nothing will happen, to the best of my knowledge.

More correctly, a judge will likely treat such behaviour in a dark light and may rule against the mother in some manner or other, or may simply give her a dressing down in court, but a bench warrant will not be issued. I think there has only ever been one case of a bench warrant being issued for a mother in Ireland.

Really? I'd be very surprised if that was the case as a few months ago the Judge was willing to issue one, however we decided against it as it would have been counterproductive at the time, things were starting to move along.

K-9

C_urious wrote: »

Really? I'd be very surprised if that was the case as a few months ago the Judge was willing to issue one, however we decided against it as it would have been counterproductive at the time, things were starting to move along.

I've heard of that happening too. The father is usually asked does he want the mother to be imprisoned.

The Corinthian

C_urious wrote: »

Really? I'd be very surprised if that was the case as a few months ago the Judge was willing to issue one, however we decided against it as it would have been counterproductive at the time, things were starting to move along.

Yet nothing actually happened. As I said, the judge will be pissed off with the mother in such cases, will huff and puff, but ultimately nothing will come of it.

The reality is that fathers who break court orders are routinely sent to jail (some of the posters here have met them in the courts) while, as I said, I think there has at best only ever been one case in Ireland of a mother who broke a court order. That is the bottom line.

K-9 wrote: »

I've heard of that happening too. The father is usually asked does he want the mother to be imprisoned.

I would be interested in knowing if mothers are asked to take responsibility for such a decision in court too, or if judges seek to pass the moral buck only to fathers.

I would stress that I don't believe that a custodial sentience solves anything in either case. However, any enforcement of court orders against mothers seem to be non-existent, and that is the problem.

amiable

C_urious wrote: »

This thread is a great source of info everyone, well done!

Could somebody tell me what is likely to happen if:

a) a mother repeatedly does not turn up for court proceedings for an access order ( I assume a bench warrant)

b)if the mother fails to comply with an access order

the help is much appreciated folks.

Why ask these questions if you go on to refute the advice later on another poster gave and tried to answer these questions as best as possible for you?

LegacyUser

amiable wrote: »

Why ask these questions if you go on to refute the advice later on another poster gave and tried to answer these questions as best as possible for you?

I'm not refuting any advice, I'm discussing it. I didn't deny the truth or accuracy of what The Corinthian said, I was simply adding to my previous post something which I should have included admittedly. The judge who was dealing with my case on a number of occasions became insulted that the mother would not turn up to any court appearences especially as they were for breach of an access order and was prepared to issue a bench warrant on that day which we decided against.

Don't be so quick to jump down people's throat when tone of voice is something difficult to convey across a forum.

Nevyn

C_urious this site has rules about dicussing current court cases and also you may be in breach of the in camera rule which the family courts have, so please becareful about what you post.

LegacyUser

Thaedydal wrote: »

C_urious this site has rules about dicussing current court cases and also you may be in breach of the in camera rule which the family courts have, so please becareful about what you post.

Apologies, never even thought of that! Cheers

Klingon Hamlet

I think we all agree no one wants to see a parent behind bars.:(

Nevyn

Yes but there should be a point where a judge says that if the current custodial parent can't keep thier word and can't obey a court order that they are not fit to be the main custodial parent and offer main custody to the other parent.

Klingon Hamlet

Article here:

Unmarried fathers dressed in Santa costumes are to hold a peaceful protest in Dublin city centre at midday today calling for legal changes to recognise their rights as fathers.

The Unmarried and Separated Fathers of Ireland group will also lay wreaths in the Liffey to commemorate men who have taken their own lives at Christmas time.

Spokesperson Ray Kelly said Christmas was a very hard time of year for any father who does not have access rights to his children.

Klingon Hamlet

Irish Times:

Fathers march over access issues

KITTY HOLLAND

ABOUT 70 unmarried and separated fathers marched in Dublin at the weekend in an annual event to highlight their problems accessing their children.

Dressed in Santa suits, the men marched from Dolphin House family law court in Temple Bar to O’Connell Bridge, where 25 wreaths were thrown into the Liffey. Each represented a father who, according to protesters, had taken their own life because of their access issues.

Ray Kelly, founder of the Unmarried and Separated Fathers, welcomed the proposal from the Law Reform Commission that unmarried fathers should be presumed automatically to be a guardian of their children, but said this did not go far enough. He said fathers should also be granted access automatically.

“There also an issue about maintenance. How can a father on social welfare be expected to pay maintenance? That would push them under the poverty line. I’m not saying a father shouldn’t give maintenance but there are ways he can other than money.”

He also called for State funding for the organisation, which he said had about 5,000 members, saying it was “an equality issue”.

Klingon Hamlet

The Law Reform Commission has repeated its 28 year old message: that fathers should be granted equal rights. Read below:

Report on Legal Aspects of Family Relationships

Tuesday 21st December 2010:

The Law Reform Commission’s Report on Family Relationships will be launched by Mary White TD, Minister of State for Equality, Integration and Human Rights (Department of Community, Equality and Gaeltacht Affairs) at the Commission’s offices at 6 pm this evening. This Report forms part of the Commission’s Third Programme of Law Reform 2008-2014, and also includes a draft Children and Parental Responsibility Bill.

Children and fathers: rights and responsibilities

The Report continues the Commission’s long-standing work on reform of family law. In a 1982 Report, the Commission recommended the abolition of the status of illegitimacy, so that all children would be treated equally in the law. This was implemented in the Status of Children Act 1987. The Commission had also recommended in 1982 that automatic guardianship rights and responsibilities should apply to all fathers, regardless of marital status. This has not been implemented in Ireland, although the 1987 Act (and other changes made since then) recognises the importance of the relationship between fathers and their children. The Report being published today reiterates the view taken in the 1982 Report, and the Commission emphasises that this reflects an appropriate recognition of the rights of children to know their parents and the corresponding rights and responsibilities of fathers.


Changing patterns in family relationships

The Report also makes additional wide-ranging recommendations for reform that reflect the changing patterns of family relationships that have emerged in Ireland in recent years. This includes reform concerning the rights and responsibilities of civil partners, step-parents, grandparents, co-habitants and other members of the extended family in contemporary Ireland, taking into account the best interests and welfare of children.


Specific recommendations

Among the specific recommendations made in the Report are:

• new terms “parental responsibility”, “day-to-day care” and “contact” should replace the terms guardianship, custody and access currently used in the Guardianship of Infants Act 1964. The new terms would give a clearer indication of what is actually involved in this part of family law; and remove any misunderstanding that parental rights involving children exist without corresponding responsibilities. It would also ensure that the terms used in Ireland would be in line with those used in many other States and in international instruments to which Ireland is a party.

• Parental responsibility (guardianship) should be defined in legislation as including the duty to maintain and properly care for a child, the right to apply for a passport for the child and the right to make decisions about where a child will live, a child’s religious and secular education, health requirements and general welfare.

• day-to-day care (custody) should be defined in legislation as including the ability of the parent, or person in loco parentis, to exercise care and control over a child on a day-to-day basis, to protect and to supervise the child.

• contact (access) should be defined in legislation as including the right of the child to maintain personal relations and contact with the parent or other qualifying person on a regular basis, subject to the proviso that contact must be in the best interests of the child.

• mothers and fathers (including non-marital fathers) should have automatic joint parental responsibility (guardianship) for their children.

• there should be automatic joint registration of both parents on a birth certificate (intended to reinforce the right of a child to know their parents).

• legislation should facilitate the extension of parental responsibility to civil partners and step-parents. The Commission recommends that civil partners and step-parents could obtain parental responsibility by way of an agreement with the other parties who have parental responsibility for the child or by application to court.

• where parental responsibility is extended by court order the court shall have regard to, among other factors, the wishes and best interests of the child and the views of other parties with parental responsibility.

• the ability to apply for day-to-day care (custody) should be extended to relatives of a child, persons in loco parentis and persons with a bona fide interest in the child in circumstances where the parents are unable or unwilling to exercise parental responsibility.

• the draft Children and Parental Responsibility Bill in the Report uses the proposed new terms, incorporates the reforms made in the Report and would replace the Guardianship of Infants Act 1964.

For further information / interview with the President, Mrs Justice Catherine McGuinness, or Director of Research Raymond Byrne, contact:

Eoin Quinn, Weber Shandwick FCC, T: 01-6760168, or M: 087 233 2191

Background Notes for Editors

The Law Reform Commission is an independent statutory body whose main role is to keep the law under review and to make proposals for reform. To date, the Commission has published over 160 documents (Consultation Papers and Reports) containing reform proposals, available at www.lawreform.ie. A large majority (about 70%) of these proposals have led on to reforming legislation. This Report will be available on the Commission’s website on the afternoon of the launch, 21st December 2010.

This is HUGE! Yes there are more steps to be taken but seriously---this needs to be acted upon swiftly and I think any incoming government party would be mad not to seize upon this opportunity to make things right for children and their loving parents.

Here's the link to the full document: http://www.lawreform.ie/_fileupload/Reports/r101Family(1).pdf

Klingon Hamlet

Irish Independent:

By Dearbhail McDonald Legal Editor

Tuesday December 21 2010

UNMARRIED fathers will automatically have their names placed on their children's birth certificates under laws proposed by the Government's legal watchdog.

The Law Reform Commission has proposed that all fathers, including unmarried fathers who currently have to apply to the courts to become legal guardians of their children, should have their names automatically registered.

The reform is designed to boost the rights of children to know who both their parents are.

Unmarried mothers who claim that they do not know who the child's father is would be obliged to sign a statutory declaration claiming "I don't know".

And men who allege they have not fathered a child will be afforded a 28-day period to lodge any objection to their name being placed on a birth certificate.

The commission has proposed, in draft legislation to be published today, that unmarried fathers should have joint parental responsibility or guardianship, a move which has been broadly welcomed by the Unmarried and Separated Families of Ireland.

"It is a point in the right direction," said Ray Kelly of the USFI.

"Joint parental responsibility is important, but it is still not as important as custody and access. We need a much clearer debate on the issue of the custodial parent who has the overriding say," said Mr Kelly, who has claimed more than nine out of 10 married women are still awarded custody by the courts.

At present, married parents are entitled to shared custody of their child as joint guardians and the mother of a non-marital child is entitled to sole custody if the father has not been made a guardian.

Decisions

But the new Children and Responsibility Law, if passed, would give non-marital fathers the entitlement to maintain and properly care for a child, the right to apply for a passport for the child and the right to make decisions about where a child will live, a child's religious education, health requirements and general welfare.

The commission has confirmed that the issue of day-to-day care or custody and access should be defined in legislation and would still fall for consideration by the courts where this is contested by parents.

The commission also recommended that parental responsibility be extended to civil partners, step-parents and grandparents and said that the far-reaching proposals do not offend the elevated status of the family based on marriage as protected in the Constitution.

"The proposals are consistent with the Constitution but reflect the changing patterns of family relationships that have emerged in Ireland in recent years," said Ray Byrne, director of research at the commission.

"They are child-centred. This report reflects an appropriate recognition of the rights of children to know both parents. Parenthood comes with rights and responsibilities and this report represents the flipside of the rights afforded to parents in the Constitution," he added.

- Dearbhail McDonald Legal Editor

Irish Independent

This is fantastic news---now all we need to see is the rights and responsibilites being made automatic, and the custody battles might just ease off...allowing parents be parents and children be happy:)

metrovelvet

legislation should facilitate the extension of parental responsibility to civil partners and step-parents. The Commission recommends that civil partners and step-parents could obtain parental responsibility by way of an agreement with the other parties who have parental responsibility for the child or by application to court.

Does this mean step parents and grandparents can get sued for maintance or just that a mother and a step father can outvote a father?

[The whole thing is a load of crap tbh. The auto guardianship of fathers is just so the state can collect child support. They dont give a **** about the kids or the fathers.]

Klingon Hamlet

metrovelvet wrote: »

[The whole thing is a load of crap tbh. The auto guardianship of fathers is just so the state can collect child support. They dont give a **** about the kids or the fathers.]

You may be very confused Metro, as auto-guardianship and maintenance are two separate issues. For example, my name can be on the cert, and I can be summoned for maintenance, even if I'm not a guardian. I'm not a moderator, but I think you're too quick to point out the negatives. Today's a great day for all families of any shape and size.

Klingon Hamlet

Irish Times:

When making plans for a separated Christmas, your children’s happiness is paramount, so parents need to take a step back and think about what’s best for them

EVEN IN the happiest of households, the potent Christmas mix of emotional memories, hours cooped up with extended family and too much drink can put a severe strain on seasonal goodwill.

Where parents can no longer bear to live under the same roof, a happy Christmas for all may seem well nigh impossible. But for the sake of the children, they know they need to try.

The unanimous advice on coping with a separated Christmas is “make a plan”. Every member of the family needs to know where they will be, when and with whom during the key festive days.

“If there is no plan, everyone just carries a knot of tension,” says Glynis Good, counsellor with Teen Between, a support service for teenagers of separated parents run by the Marriage and Relationship Counselling Services. “The parents feel they are carrying it because the children are getting on with their lives as they see it; they may not be aware that the young people are as anxious and concerned about what is going to happen.”

If children are spending Christmas Day with one parent, they will want to know what the other parent is doing and be assured that he/she will be okay. “Their parents’ emotional wellbeing is a very real concern to them,” she stresses.

When making a plan, focus on what is possible rather than impossible, Good says. And see what old traditions can be retained, but also come up with ideas for setting new traditions. While the first Christmas is always “hugely difficult”, every Christmas needs a plan as circumstances change.

“Separation is not an event, it is a process,” says Good, author of When Parents Split. “This process will continue, so parents learning to work co-operatively makes such a difference. It is so worthwhile for their children and, in the future, for their grandchildren.”

As one teenager said to her about Christmas: “Both my parents want me to please them by agreeing to do things their way. It puts me in a battle that I can never win.”

The ideal, if circumstances permit and they think they can carry it off, is for both parents to put their differences aside and spend time together with the children on Christmas Day. But that is not realistic for many separated couples.

“Some are very good at spending times like birthdays and Christmas together and their children may think they are the best of friends,” says Karen Kiernan, director of One Family. But for those who find it difficult even to discuss how Christmas should be organised, she recommends involving a trusted person in the negotiations, if necessary.

It is wonderful if separated parents can get together for a family meal on Christmas Day with good grace, agrees family law solicitor Anne O’Neill. “Obviously, it is not wonderful if it is an excuse for sniping and bickering or for other family members to have a go at the ex.”

It is possible to write a formula for Christmas into legal separation agreements, “without giving a whole lot of thought as to whether that formula is child friendly or not”, she says. It could be stipulated that the children spend Christmas Day with mum one year and dad the other, or the morning with mum and the afternoon with dad. Yet the feedback she gets is that children are often not happy with those arrangements.

“Those formulas are designed to make the parents feel better,” says O’Neill. Whereas children, who are creatures of habit, would often prefer to spend Christmas in one place.

As long as they know the other parent is okay, they may not be worried if they don’t see him or her on the day, she suggests. A long phone call or Skype session with the absent parent can be arranged instead.

“What parents need to think about is how do we not pathologise Christmas for our children? How do we ensure that they grow up with a happy memory of it?”

Eamonn Quinn of the Unmarried and Separated Parents of Ireland (USPI) organisation is adamant that fathers who have moved out should not seek to have their children with them every second Christmas. It is in the best interests of the children, he says, if they can stay in their customary home for Christmas Eve and at least the morning of Christmas Day.

Parents need to rise above their bitterness and put the child first, then things fall into place, he suggests.

The fact that Christmas Day is on a Saturday this year is causing problems as many fathers are granted access at weekends and so some are insisting they have their children as usual. Be flexible, give up your customary block of access, he advises, and instead ask for an hour or two with your children on Christmas Eve and then again on Christmas Day.

“Quality time is better than quantity. Sometimes people fight for X amount of access and then find it is too much.”

For parents who will not be with their children on Christmas morning, the USPI is holding a vigil on O’Connell Bridge in Dublin, from 11am to 1pm. It is not a protest, Quinn says, but rather to reassure parents who are spending the day apart from their children that they are not alone and to give them a focal point on Christmas Day, as an alternative to resorting to alcohol or other substances.

One Family encourages parents who are going to be without their children to reach out for the support of family and friends. They should not wake up on Christmas morning without a plan.

“Think of a different way of having Christmas,” says Kiernan. “It is really important to think about it in advance and not just arrive there – maybe grieve a little in advance.”

How you choose to spend it may depend on whether you feel okay being on your own or not. But there are things to do in public, she points out, such as fun runs, swims and volunteering – ways of being with other people.

Parents who are not going to be with their own children might be better off avoiding being with other people’s children on Christmas Day and instead try to be in adult-only company, says Rita O’Reilly, manager of Parentline.

She also suggests that separated parents arrange two Christmas celebrations for their children – even if the one that is not on the 25th does not have all the trimmings, it should have some of the customary elements.

Introducing new partners into the Christmas celebrations adds another layer of complexity. “The sad thing is that people are separating so much sooner and getting into new relationships so much sooner. Children’s lives have become really quite complicated with the extended relationships they have to deal with,” says Good.

She has sat down with children whose parents have broken up, they have gone into new relationships, they have broken up and they are now in third relationships “and these kids are only 12. What we say to teenagers,” she adds, “is that trying to arrange to see both your parents can be a pain, but remember what matters is that everybody does want to and is trying to make time for each other. It might not be easy, but it’s worth it – at least we hope it is!”

CHILDREN NEED PRESENCE RATHER THAN PRESENTS

Separated parents intent on scoring points off each other can be very competitive over Christmas presents for the children, but ideally they should agree in advance on what is being bought.

“You have people overcompensating by paying wild amounts of money,” says family law solicitor Anne O’Neill. “It spoils the kids who are fierce cute. The first time you make that mistake, the child will know that ‘This is the way I can get mileage – play them off against one another’.”

Gifts to children should come jointly from mum and dad, advises parenting coach Liz Quish, even if there are two presents which were bought separately. She also recommends that each parent goes out with the children to buy a present for the other parent.

“Some parents who can’t stand each other may think that they are not spending a fiver on him/her, but it is for the children at the end of the day and that is what you have got to look at.”

Eamonn Quinn of Unmarried and Separated Parents of Ireland advises simply that “presence” is what counts, rather than “presents”.

'IF I LEAVE THEM TO HIM AT 2 O'CLOCK, I'M SITTING THERE ON MY OWN . . . BUT I WILL GET OVER THAT'

Anne, who is facing her first Christmas as a separated parent after 11 years of marriage, would like to spend some part of the day with her estranged husband for the sake of the children.

Various options have been put to him but, as they are not talking, no plan had been made at the time of this interview, with just three weeks to go.

She did ask the children, aged eight and six, what they wanted to do, but their main concern was that they be in their current house for Santa.

“My heart broke,” she says, when she saw her son’s letter to Santa. “He wrote, ‘Dear Santa, Thank you for what you brought last year. This is what I want this year and just to let you know my parents have separated and I am living in a new house now and this is my address’. God love him.”

The younger child, when consulted, just said she wanted to be at the party her grandmother holds every Christmas Eve.

Anne’s first thought was that their father could come for dinner at the house she has been renting since she and the children moved out of the family home in Co Mayo five months ago.

Then she thought a neutral venue might be a better idea and suggested going to a hotel for Christmas dinner, but she has had no response to that idea either.

His mother asked her if she would be prepared to go back to the home for a day if he cooked dinner. “It would be hard for me to do. but for the kids – if I had to – I would be fine with that.”

If they can’t manage being together for a few hours, they could share the day, she says. “They could be with me in the morning and I would leave them up to him in the afternoon.”

She does not really mind what they do, but wishes there was a plan in place. Traditionally, they went to his parents on Christmas Eve night; there was just the four of them at home on Christmas Day; and then on December 27th she took the children to her parents who live five hours’ drive away.

Anne imagines it will be very hard for her husband alone in the family home, “waking up Christmas morning, Santa’s not coming”. She feels it is easier for her, in a new place, with the kids to keep her going.

However, unlike him, she has no extended family around. “If I leave them to him at 2 o’clock, I’m sitting there on my own. But my attitude is it is only one day. I will get over that for one day.”

Her saving grace is “that I have peace of mind now – that is what keeps me going, it is my strength. You can’t put a price on that. The tension I had is gone; it is such a huge relief.

“That doesn’t mean,” she adds, “that I might not be crying my eyes out on Christmas Day.”

For Lisa*, this will be the fifth Christmas since she left the family home and she will celebrate it on December 24th with her two teenage children, along with her siblings and their families. Her children will then go to their father, who has them every weekend, on Christmas morning.

“Some years we split Christmas Day up between us, but the kids did not really like that, being shunted about from one place to another halfway through the day,” she says.

Extended family gatherings are problematic. Members of her family like to keep in touch with her ex-husband, but he will not countenance being in the same room as her, so they take opportunities when Lisa is not around to invite him over.

“His attitude makes it impossible for my children to even contemplate acknowledging my new partner,” she says. “They would feel so disloyal.” As a result, her partner will be excluded from the Christmas Eve festivities.

“I was over-optimistic about how this would all work out,” sighs Lisa. “The kids feel very awkward, and it is not good for me, reinforcing that I am the “nasty mother” who left.”

* Name has been changed

For advice on coping with Christmas as separated parents, see onefamily.ie or Anne O’Neill’s blog on familylawireland.ie.

Christmas without your child can be extremely painful but I think it's important for anyone going throguh this to lean on your friends and family, and just enjoy the day as best you can. Put the kids first, even if it means not seeing them on Christmas Day this year...maybe next year things will change!

metrovelvet

Klingon Hamlet wrote: »

You may be very confused Metro, as auto-guardianship and maintenance are two separate issues. For example, my name can be on the cert, and I can be summoned for maintenance, even if I'm not a guardian. I'm not a moderator, but I think you're too quick to point out the negatives. Today's a great day for all families of any shape and size.

I think it makes things worse for fathers tbh. I dont know why you are so happy about this. If step parents and grandparents can also be guardians, your guardianship means less than when it did when you had to apply for it.

The naming of the father on the birthcert being automatic is all about money. The state, and mary white, do not give a crap about the kids or fathers.

Klingon Hamlet

metrovelvet wrote: »

I think it makes things worse for fathers tbh. I dont know why you are so happy about this. If step parents and grandparents can also be guardians, your guardianship means less than when it did when you had to apply for it.

The naming of the father on the birthcert being automatic is all about money. The state, and mary white, do not give a crap about the kids or fathers.

With respect, you're wrong. Guardianship and custody are hugely important for fathers in the Republic of Ireland, as without these they are simply helpless.

Step parents and grandparents would only be made guardians if absolutely necessary.

And I met Minister White---believe me, she really does care. She sat with me for over an hour going over my own personal experiences, discussing with me the huge problems facing unmarried fathers and their children, and promising to dedicate her time and effort towards improving our rights tenfold.

She assured me the LRC were adamant that these rights be enacted promptly, and told me to wait for their report.

The report has arrived, now it's up to the government to deliver.

Klingon Hamlet

Irish Times article:

CAROL COULTER, Legal Affairs Editor

FATHERS AND mothers, whether married or not, should have automatic guardianship of their children, according to the Law Reform Commission.

It also tackles the vexed issue of the parental rights of same sex couples in recommending that legislation should permit the extension of guardianship to step-parents and civil partners.

The term “guardianship” should be replaced by “parental responsibility”, it states.

The recommendations come in the commission’s Report on Family Relationships , which is published today.

This forms part of the commission’s programme of law reform, agreed with the Government, and is the latest in a series of reports recommending reform in family law. The recommendation that non-marital fathers have guardianship rights and responsibilities goes back to a Law Reform Commission report in 1982, but this was never implemented.

The commission regards the welfare and best interests of the child as a primary consideration in any issue concerning family relationships. It stresses that both the Constitution and the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child place the rights of children against the background of responsibilities and the rights of parents.

The report proposes changes in the terminology surrounding issues in family relationships, both to reflect more closely the content of the issues concerned, and to bring them into line with the terminology used in international law and conventions.

“Parental responsibility”, “day-to-day care” and “contact” replace the “guardianship”, “custody” and “access”, all currently used in the Guardianship of Infants Act 1964.

This Act should be replaced by a new Children and Parental Responsibility Bill, a draft of which is appended to the report.

It recommends that parental responsibility be automatic for both parents and be defined in legislation as including the duty to maintain and properly care for a child, the right to apply for a passport and to make decisions about where the child will live, his or her religious and secular education, health and general welfare.

A child should have the right to know their parents, and both should be automatically registered on a birth certificate, unless the mother signs a statutory declaration that she does not know the identity of the father or that her safety and welfare or that of the child is at risk by doing so.

Legislation should facilitate the extension of parental responsibility to civil partners and step-parents, either by way of an agreement with the other parties who have parental responsibility, or by application to court.

In considering the application the court should have regard to the wishes and best interests of the child and the views of others with parental responsibility.

metrovelvet

Klingon Hamlet wrote: »

With respect, you're wrong. Guardianship and custody are hugely important for fathers in the Republic of Ireland, as without these they are simply helpless.

Step parents and grandparents would only be made guardians if absolutely necessary.

And I met Minister White---believe me, she really does care. She sat with me for over an hour going over my own personal experiences, discussing with me the huge problems facing unmarried fathers and their children, and promising to dedicate her time and effort towards improving our rights tenfold.

She assured me the LRC were adamant that these rights be enacted promptly, and told me to wait for their report.

The report has arrived, now it's up to the government to deliver.

With respect, have you read the report? This is an attempt to remove rights in practise from non residential parents [usually the father].

If you read the whole thing you will see so many problems with it. I wouldnt get out the champagne just yet.

See pages 38 for step parents. It has nothing to do with 'extreme circumstances'. Its to do with agreement of the 'guardians at the time' of the application.

http://www.lawreform.ie/_fileupload/Reports/r101Family(1).pdf

Klingon Hamlet

metrovelvet wrote: »

With respect, have you read the report? This is an attempt to remove rights from non residential parents [usually the father].

If you read the whole thing you will see so many problems with it. I wouldnt get out the champagne just yet.

See pages 38 for step parents. It has nothing to do with 'extreme circumstances'. Its to do with agreement of the 'guardians at the time' of the application.

http://www.lawreform.ie/_fileupload/Reports/r101Family(1).pdf

The guardians would be the biological parents, and if there's a disagreement, the court would need a good reason to appoint a third and possibly fourth "parent". Remember it's to be in the child's interest. So if I contest my ex's husband becoming my child's third guardian, the court would take my word pretty seriously, and would also need a good reason from the ex as to why my child needs a third parent.

Big changes are necessary as society has changed.

K-9

Klingon Hamlet wrote: »

With respect, you're wrong. Guardianship and custody are hugely important for fathers in the Republic of Ireland, as without these they are simply helpless.

Step parents and grandparents would only be made guardians if absolutely necessary.

And I met Minister White---believe me, she really does care. She sat with me for over an hour going over my own personal experiences, discussing with me the huge problems facing unmarried fathers and their children, and promising to dedicate her time and effort towards improving our rights tenfold.

She assured me the LRC were adamant that these rights be enacted promptly, and told me to wait for their report.

The report has arrived, now it's up to the government to deliver.

Indeed. I remember the Frontline programme on the cohabitation bill and the the judge who was involved in that legislation, name escapes me, was adamant that the situation regarding unmarried fathers was the next area to be addressed.

No doubt there will be problems with the legislation, laws are never perfect, but it can't be hard to be an improvement on the current situation. People have to realise equality often means they themselves might suffer personally, but that isn't what equality is about!

Klingon Hamlet

K-9 wrote: »

Indeed. I remember the Frontline programme on the cohabitation bill and the the judge who was involved in that legislation, name escapes me, was adamant that the situation regarding unmarried fathers was the next area to be addressed.

No doubt there will be problems with the legislation, laws are never perfect, but it can't be hard to be an improvement on the current situation. People have to realise equality often means they themselves might suffer personally, but that isn't what equality is about!

Mrs Justice Catherine McGuinness was the judge on the show. She has campaigned tirelessly for fathers' rights, and was heavily involved in this report (she heads the LRC). She and Mary White deserve our thanks. Ignore the negative opinions expressed about this all being for show, or all for money grabbing politicians, or whatever---they mean to help us.

metrovelvet

Question: I cant find anywhere in the report whether the automatic guardianship [as well as the other entitlements, etc] applies retroactively to children born before the date the legislation will pass.

rolly1

metrovelvet wrote: »

legislation should facilitate the extension of parental responsibility to civil partners and step-parents. The Commission recommends that civil partners and step-parents could obtain parental responsibility by way of an agreement with the other parties who have parental responsibility for the child or by application to court.

Does this mean step parents and grandparents can get sued for maintance or just that a mother and a step father can outvote a father?

[The whole thing is a load of crap tbh. The auto guardianship of fathers is just so the state can collect child support. They dont give a **** about the kids or the fathers.]

Agree 100%, apart from the fact that this is not Guardianship but some piss poor rubbish status that can be handed out to any homo sapien on the planet.The outvoting issue is plain for all to see. This is absolutely treacherous crap which destroys the rights of all fathers (not just unmarried ones) and their children and creates a whole new lists of players (Step parents, "In loco parentis", the abominable snowman etc.etc) for the legal parasites to stick their money sucking fangs into.

If Calrlsberg did poisonous legislation they'd probably make this one the most poisonous in the world....

Klingon Hamlet

rolly1 wrote: »

Agree 100%, apart from the fact that this is not Guardianship but some piss poor rubbish status that can be handed out to any homo sapien on the planet.The outvoting issue is plain for all to see. This is absolutely treacherous crap which destroys the rights of all fathers (not just unmarried ones) and their children and creates a whole new lists of players (Step parents, "In loco parentis", the abominable snowman etc.etc) for the legal parasites to stick their money sucking fangs into.

If Calrlsberg did poisonous legislation they'd probably make this one the most poisonous in the world....

Read between the lines. It's simply to facilitate wives/husbands of single parents where the other bio parent deserted the child. yes there are circumstances where the bio parent is incapable, this happens, but really it's for the single mum/dad where the other parent did a runner. No adoption required, the husband/wife/partner can help with the parenting.

And the auto guardianship means that it's far more difficult for dds to shirk responsibility, and for mums to deny fathers' rights.

Kinda tired of the negativity so I'm gonna just keep posting updates and ignore the static:)

metrovelvet

Klingon Hamlet wrote: »

Read between the lines. It's simply to facilitate wives/husbands of single parents where the other bio parent deserted the child. yes there are circumstances where the bio parent is incapable, this happens, but really it's for the single mum/dad where the other parent did a runner. No adoption required, the husband/wife/partner can help with the parenting.

Nowhere does it pin that possibility exclusively to cases of desertion, nor is it just for step parents, but for other family members too.

Klingon Hamlet wrote: »

And the auto guardianship means that it's far more difficult for dds to shirk responsibility, and for mums to deny fathers' rights.

How so?

Klingon Hamlet wrote: »

Kinda tired of the negativity so I'm gonna just keep posting updates and ignore the static:)

You only want to hear what you want to and not have your blind spots pointed out?

Can you answer my question as to this apply to children born after the date the legislation is passed or to all children?

Klingon Hamlet

Autoguardianship means the dads'll have rights and responsibilities intertwined. Autoguardianship will prevent mums doing a runner before dads have a say.

I don't know if it's retrospective.

K-9

metrovelvet wrote: »

Question: I cant find anywhere in the report whether the automatic guardianship [as well as the other entitlements, etc] applies retroactively to children born before the date the legislation will pass.

It wont, unconstitutional AFAIK.

Doesn't stop scare mongering though. Some were saying the co habitation bill would be retrospective.

As a veteran of Lisbon debates, very common.

metrovelvet

K-9 wrote: »

It wont, unconstitutional AFAIK.

Doesn't stop scare mongering though. Some were saying the co habitation bill would be retrospective.

As a veteran of Lisbon debates, very common.

Isnt that, in itself unequal though? That some kids, some fathers, some step fathers, will have this legislation applied but not others.

It will be a three ring circus. What a joke.