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Unmarried fathers rights, custody and visitation.
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metrovelvet this thread and indeed this forum is not for you to have a go at fathers unmarried or other wise or to pick at parents who are seperated from thier children.
Perist and you will be banned.0 -
Here's a radio show from March 2010.
The first part has 2 unmarried dads summarising their experiences gaining guardianship and access.
The second part is an interview with Dr Angela Kerins, Chairwoman of Equality Authority, who advocates automatic guardianship rights. She also supports paid patenrity leave, and transferring maternal leave to the father.
Interesting to listen to!
(You need to have RealPlayer to replay it.)
RTE MARCH 15TH 20100 -
Click the RTE link and you'll have access to 3 clips which go into a bit more detail about fathers' rights:
RTE
Click the SIX ONE link and watch Kathleen Lynch of Labour, and Dr Angela Kerins of the Equality Authority, emphatically state the importance of Unmarried Fathers in their children's lives:
SIX ONE
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Klingon Hamlet, thank you for posting this (from me anyway). It had me in absolute tears while I was reading it. My heart goes out to the entire family. Fair Dues to Ken, I know to some people it might sound like he's mad but ya know what there isn't any lenghts that most parents wouldn't go to for their children. The fact that this hasn't been showcased in the media is beyond abusrd. I do not agree with parents kidnapping their own children no matter what the reason, just think of the confusion the poor child is going through. My hopes and prayers are with Ken and all of his family and I sincerly hope he finds his little boy.
I would also like to apologise to the dads here if any of my posts have seemed offensive or prejudiced against them, they were never meant as such. Mods, i'm not tryin to throw the topic of conversation off either, sorry if this is in an inapproiate area.
I would like to clarify on some of my eaerlier posts that while I'm all for equal rights for dads and yes custody going to dads if they are able to meet the needs of the child/ren when the mother isnt '(when she is in that case i would say as close to 50/50 as possible would be best for the child); the main reason i don't think that the leglislation proposed in Germany would work in Ireland is that our basic and most fundamental laws governing "the family" need to be changed first otherwise problems would arise. I am an equal rights advocate and i really don't see why men should be penalised when it comes to their child/ren just because they have different reporductive organs. That does not make one jot of a difference if you're a good parent you're a good parent no matter what sex you happen to be.0 -
This thread should never have went anywhere near Off Topic at any time. Dads are there the baby is concieved (well you hope they are anyway), they are half the childs genetic make up and the child needs them like they need their mother. A boy needs his dad to teach him to be a man and a girl needs a dad to show her what a man should be. Any dad that wants to have an active role on their childs life should be encouraged in every single way!
Men have as much right to be a legal guardian as women does. I can honestly say there are more than enough unfit mothers in this country that are sole guardians.
Can't wait for Thursday. We are going having a little party after the documents are signed and sealed!!!!
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Klingon Hamlet wrote: »I came across this article last week. It's a huge step forward for German families. Wonder if this will ever happen here??
This is really great news. It's a complete turnaround of the current system: instead of hoping for the mother's permission or fighting in court for rights, instead the court is only really there to remove those rights from those unable to be a loving parent. Which thankfully should be at the lower end of the scale, thereby freeing up courtrooms, reducing the number of adversarial parents, and overall vindicating the daddies campaigning for years for equal rights.
Most of all children in Germany now face a far more optimistic future because the usual tug-of-war is far less likely to occur. Bravo to Minister Sabine Leutheusser-Schnarrenberger. Let's hope Ireland and the rest of Europe take note, and follow Germany's lead.
it is the position in denmark and sweden for a long time0 -
Klingon, firstly well done on fighting for a relationship with your child - in an ideal world, all dads would be born with the emotions towards their children that you appear to have:)
I've a question for you - although perhaps this is a bit off-kilter, and I should start a seperate thread.
A little background to my situation first - I was in a long term relationship and got pregnant. Himself decided he didn't want a child, handed me 500euro in cash etc (you get the picture)...and that was the last I saw of him. Except for the few court dates over the years for maintenance. From the get-go, he decided he didn't want to be a father to our child, and he has stuck to his guns.
So 8yrs down the line, and I have the most adorable son - I often wonder what I'd do without him, but I digress;)
So if his dad had gotten automation custody/guardianship of him at birth, what difference would it have made to my son? If he still decided he didn't want to be his father, could I (a court) have forced him to be one? (Not that I would want that, obviously!).
These German rights appear very one-sided, the dads who want to be dads are jumping for joy no doubt, and I'm delighted for them.
But what about the dads who don't want to be dads??? How does this affect them? Could I (or women in general) bring them to court to force them to BE guardians or custodians, based a law like this???
We all look at every issue/argument from our own perspective - how it affects our own lives. This law would have no impact whatsoever or my son - the boy who wants to know where his dad lives, but who's mam is reluctant to tell him because his dad doesn't want to even know of his existence.
I'm lucky. My little lad hasn't suffered for not having his dad around - but I'm under no illusion that the time is approaching when I will have to tell him where he lives etc - so while his absent parent has had no impact on his life to date, I know he'll go through the motions of abandonment as he hits puberty - but hopefully I've given him enough coping skills to deal with that;)
But there are other children, much more affected by absent dads that my lad (I say dad here, I am aware that there are absent mothers also...)
Fathers who want to see their kids and fight tooth and nail, are to be admired in my opinion. But what of the kids who want to see their dads?????0 -
@Fittle: Even if guardianship were automatic, it would still have to be registered, so it is unlikely to have happened in the case of a man with no interest in being a father.
Additionally guardianship can be lost. If a man, through the courts or agreement, becomes a guardian then leaves never to be heard of again, the mother can petition the courts to remove his guardianship.
Ironically both fathers, who have gained guardianship through marriage, and mothers cannot lose guardianship, even if they leave never to be heard of again.
Of course it all depends on how such legislation is put together.0 -
Mother's can have their guardianship quashed by a judge if the child has been abandoned and there has been no contact for 5 years and then the child can be adopted.0
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True, but only if the child is adopted.Mother's can have their guardianship quashed by a judge if the child has been abandoned and there has been no contact for 5 years and then the child can be adopted.0 -
My son's father and I were in court on Thursday getting him what he deserved all along. We were in and out in less than 5 minutes (after a 2 hour wait I may add) and all I can say is I am embarrassed to be a woman. As it was the family court I was able to hear all the women discussing with their solicitors in the hall about the terms in which their childrens fathers are to be in their lives. I was sickened to say the least!
One woman, who I reckonise to see as being from the same town as my ex, her conditions were, eg;
he was not allowed bring the child to his family home (he lives with his parents in a beautiful house with a large garden, she lives in a council house in a estate that there has been prime time specials on!!!)
he is not allowed to see the child at weekends as it does suit her to get out of bed to drop the child and what makes it worse is her solicitor agreed with her (woman too I might add) I mean seriously wtf that is the height of selfishness, it is not supposed to be about her, it is supposed to be about the child.0 -
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2010/0409/1224267967701.htmlAs a result of a High Court ruling two English children may never see each other or their parents again, writes JOHN WATERS
POSSIBLY WITHIN hours or days, two English children whose futures have been the subject of court proceedings in this jurisdiction for 17 months will be escorted by social workers back to England. There is a strong likelihood that this little brother and sister will be forcibly adopted and will never see each other or their parents again.
I recently wrote about this case using the pseudonym “Lane”. I am prohibited from revealing the identities of the people by laws intended to protect them.
Two years ago, Nottinghamshire County Council sought to take the Lanes’ children into care, making allegations concerning the capabilities and mental health of the parents. This followed a negligence complaint made by the family against the National Health Service after the mother partially lost her sight. Under a voluntary care order, the children spent 27 days in foster care, while an investigation cleared the Lanes on all allegations, including that of medicating their children. When the children came home, however, the parents suspected that they had been physically abused in foster care. This became the subject of a police investigation. The council then sought a supervision order, requiring the family to submit to repeated tests and evaluations. Noting a reference in court documentation to the possible adoption of their children, the Lanes fled to Ireland, where they hoped to avail of the protections of our Constitution.
England, unlike Ireland, allows children, even those of married parents, to be adopted against their parents’ wishes. In one recent instance, children were placed for adoption because social workers decided their mother was too fat. In another, the presiding judge expressed concerns that authorities were using trumped-up allegations to take children from good families to meet adoption quotas.
Two weeks ago, the Supreme Court here dismissed the Lanes’ appeal and ordered that the children be sent back to England within 21 days. The court did not adjudicate on the substantive merits of the care issue. The hearing arose from a High Court judgment under the Hague Convention, relating to where proceedings should take place. The convention is intended to enable the return of children who have been abducted from their place of habitual residence against the wishes of one or other parent/guardian.
The Lanes have never lost custody of their children and continue to exercise full parental responsibility. No care order exists in England in respect of their children. No investigation in England or Ireland has upheld any complaint against them.
In January last year, on the basis of an interim care order taken out in this jurisdiction, the children were taken from their parents in an operation involving social workers and an extraordinarily large force – at least a dozen – of gardaí. No full care order has been issued in this jurisdiction, and no investigation of the allegations has been conducted. The HSE has acted solely on the basis of demands and assertions by the English authorities.
Although no court orders existed in England in respect of the Lane family, the High Court in Dublin found the English courts had some rights of custody. This suggests that, in order to dilute the custody rights of this family, all the English authorities had to do was make a holding application to a court. No judgment or order was necessary.
Even though the removal of the children did not breach any English order or law, the Irish High Court agreed with the English courts that removal had been wrongful.
The parents argued that the return of the children would conflict with “the fundamental principles of Ireland relating to the protection of human rights and fundamental freedoms” within the meaning of article 20 of the Hague Convention, having regard in particular to the threat of forcible adoption. The High Court accepted the assertion by Nottinghamshire council that adoption is a “last resort”. Ms Justice Mary Finlay Geoghegan said that, since adoption was merely a “possibility”, the situation did not meet the required threshold of “grave risk” or place the children in “an intolerable situation”. She said that article 20 of the Hague Convention was intended to be invoked only on the rare occasion that the return of a child “would utterly shock the conscience of the court or offend all notions of due process”.
The High Court, as the Hague Convention requires, also considered the children’s wishes. Although there is evidence that the elder of the two, aged seven, wishes to remain here and be reunited with his parents, the judge found that the interview with the child “did not include an objection to returning to England”. The judge said that a desire to remain in Ireland “is quite different to an objection to returning to England”!
The Lanes, driven by the parental desire to protect their children, have represented themselves and their children in front of more than 20 judges. They have been fighting on the frontier of two contrasting cultures of childcare and family rights. Whereas Ireland treats children as part of the family, England accords children rights as individuals, detached from those of parents and siblings. These rights are ultimately exercised by the state.
The proposed amendment to our Constitution would bring us into line with the dispensation currently obtaining across the Irish Sea.
TERRIFYING :eek:0 -
I am conflicted on this, and please read my reasons why.
If the state is the one in charge of the child's rights then it means unfit mothers (druggies and the like) cannot force their children to be brought up with them and in turn become like them. Also I do not believe a 14 year old mother is capible of making a choice for herself let alone an infant! I often think people in these situations do more harm than good to themselves and the baby! A fourteen year old does not know enough of the world to teach a child and also they are merely children themselves and as a child they deserve to have a life that includes cinemas, disco's, sleepovers, etc not caring for a newborn. I reallly think in these cases the court would be more capible of a responsible decision for the child than the parents.
THAT BEING SAID
If the court decided that as a student nurse, and having a student vet for a father, that we are not capible of having the last say legally for our son, my ex and I would not leave a court in Europe without our presence as the Lane's have done in Ireland and Britain. A legal adult who has children and is of fit mind normally has only one persons interests at heart, the child's! I say normally because sadly some are just self centred.
I do not think that the alterations to our constitution that they propose are good ones. I think it will further destroy the family unit and destroy homes.
Is theis change going through the people or just through the houses and the president?
It is sickening to think that you losing some of your sight is a reason for being deemed an unfit parent! Sickening!!!!0 -
Yes it is terrifying. I read about this recently when I leafed through a Daily Telegraph left on a table in a cafe. According to this article forced adoption is quite the thing in England.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/christopherbooker/7823521/Forced-adoption-is-a-hidden-tragedy.html
Honestly thought the state has gotten so nannyist and micromanaging in England it looks to me like social workers have become the finer instruments of this excessive state interference.
I would wholeheartedly object to a constitutional change to children being an extension of the state rather than essential to the family.0 -
Article online hereThe other day, I observed why co-parenting is so difficult. It is not just about a dad, or mom, who isn’t involved. It’s about how society treats a dad who wants to be involved.
I am a stepmom who saw just that at my stepson’s pediatrician appointment. Never once did they speak to the dad, let alone make eye contact with him.
This is a dad who is equally responsible in time and care to his son. This is a dad who teaches his son right from wrong, how to fish, read, brush his teeth, and on his week-on, week-off visits does everything for his son including take him to school. Yet never once was he involved in the appointment in question.
As I observed the nurse and nurse practitioner, who never looked at or spoke to him (as a matter of fact, neither did the mom), it shows how predisposed to opinion someone can become at the say-so of a mom.
Lately in the news, we read about moms who turn on their children. That is what happens when we put so much parenting on the shoulders of the mother and don’t involve the father.
Or, it is what happens when a mom is looked at by society as the better parent, until she snaps.
This dad loves and cares for his son as much as the mother does. Encouraging co-parenting should begin at birth and in the doctor’s office.
Darlene Payne
Stuart
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How do people feel about this kind of treatment? Do mums notice dads being sidelined/marginalised/ignored? Do dads have to speak up and push for equal say? Or is this a rare issue?0 -
Klingon Hamlet wrote: »How do people feel about this kind of treatment? Do mums notice dads being sidelined/marginalised/ignored? Do dads have to speak up and push for equal say? Or is this a rare issue?
The worst treatment he has ever suffered was during the pregnancy itself. We went for a scan in UCMH in Cork and though they treated me with nothing but contempt, they just completely ignored him, the woman didn't salute him, she didnt explain anything to him, she never even looked at him!
Nowadays, with hospital appointments or anything concerning our son, we both just walk in, sit down (or if there is only one seat, which there hardly ever is, I sit he stands) and we both ask any questions we have. It is the only way, if they say one parent only we rotate who goes in, they are shocked when I stay sitting and he gets up with our son and walks in while politely saying to me, see you in a few!0 -
Klingon Hamlet wrote: »Article online here
How do people feel about this kind of treatment? Do mums notice dads being sidelined/marginalised/ignored? Do dads have to speak up and push for equal say? Or is this a rare issue?
I wouldn't know tbh. I would like to know what country this was written in.
You will be happy to hear that when I had to take my son for surgery,which was done abroad, I had to sign a consent form. The consent form also has a space for the father's signature. That was left blank obviously and I had to submit the birthcert etc.
However, after my then two year old had fasted and prepped for surgery and screamed his head off going into the sterile field, and I could still hear him screaming, the anesthesiologist comes out, opens the door and says he cannot proceed because there is no father's signature.
Well I'll be damned. Didn't I have to go scrambling for affadavits and birthcerts and every goddamned document under the sun while my two year old was screaming his head off in the prep room.
I would call that taking the dad seriously. Wouldn't you?0 -
You said the surgery was done "abroad". Can I ask where?0
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metrovelvet wrote: »I wouldn't know tbh. I would like to know what country this was written in.
You will be happy to hear that when I had to take my son for surgery,which was done abroad, I had to sign a consent form. The consent form also has a space for the father's signature. That was left blank obviously and I had to submit the birthcert etc.
However, after my then two year old had fasted and prepped for surgery and screamed his head off going into the sterile field, and I could still hear him screaming, the anesthesiologist comes out, opens the door and says he cannot proceed because there is no father's signature.
Well I'll be damned. Didn't I have to go scrambling for affadavits and birthcerts and every goddamned document under the sun while my two year old was screaming his head off in the prep room.
I would call that taking the dad seriously. Wouldn't you?
They should have asked you about the father ages before prepping your baby. So that's a horrific way to treat the two of you.
But they were right to confirm father's legal consent/absence from the child's life. I'd like to think that if my child were going in for surgery, my consent would be thoroughly sought.0 -
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Klingon Hamlet wrote: »They should have asked you about the father ages before prepping your baby. So that's a horrific way to treat the two of you.
But they were right to confirm father's legal consent/absence from the child's life. I'd like to think that if my child were going in for surgery, my consent would be thoroughly sought.
They did. I already had explained and shown what documents I had during a previous appointment [actually two previous appointments.]
I'm very lucky I happenned to have them with me, considering I thought it was already cleared up. It wouldnt have happenned otherwise.0 -
wolfpawnat wrote: »Its not enough, they say they are reviewing it and some changes might be made and if they are, some think it won't be all the way to automatic rights, so it is not enough. They say that it will depend on the relationship with the mother, no offence (and I am a women in this situation myself) but some women are vindictive and coniving b!tches. They are all for getting money off the dad but not a hope would they give him the legal right to his child.
Men have to jump through hoops in the courtroom to be called the father of their child, a women merely has to have the child to be called its mother legally. I find this sickening, a woman could be a drug addict that does not care about the child and sees it only for social welfare benefits, but a man who is a doctor/vet/bus driver/etc has to go to court for it. It is not right.
It has taken my partner and I over a year to get this sorted and I am glad to say it will be soon through the courts, but it is embarrassing having to into a court to get this done! It should be automatic!
you don't have to go to court with this. I've just this month being through this. If the partners are in agreement than all it takes is first getting the guardianship aggrement witnessed by a commisioner, than instead of going to court, one or two appointments with a solicitor and he will sign a document which can become a rule of court which once signed by both parents and acknowledged by a judge, a legally binding contract and no different than any court order imposed by a judge. My ex didn't even have to go to the court.
Thanks to treoir's advice, (brilliant ppl by the way) and my ex finally coming around after the initial ****storm that followed our seperation (on both sides I must add). We had this whole situation solved in 2 months.
Joint custody and I have my children every friday evening till sunday evening on school terms and every thursday evening till sunday evening on holidays. Which I think is a fair compromise on both our parts, during holidays its pretty much 50-50, well her 4 days to my 3 and on school terms the kids aren't disturbed so there routine is not upset. All together I get over 120 days per year with my kids, not including visitations.0 -
metrovelvet wrote: »I would not drag someone into court who has a newborn and is trying to raise that infant alone, sleep deprived, recovering from childbirth, hormonal readjustments etc etc. I would have at least waited a year before petitioning for court orders etc and tried to be as supportive and non threatening as I can be.
Everyone with half a brain knows how tough the first year is and to start court proceeding is just down right mean.
Your complaining about a mother being sleep deprived, and not having recovery time cause they are raising a child on their own? If said mother had given the father, the child at weekends or even one night per week etc... they would have time to catch up on sleep, to recover and they'd have some down time to relax and would make them all the stronger to cope with the pressures of parenting. Plus if said agreement was reached mutually their would be no one dragging them to court.0 -
Your complaining about a mother being sleep deprived, and not having recovery time cause they are raising a child on their own? If said mother had given the father, the child at weekends or even one night per week etc... they would have time to catch up on sleep, to recover and they'd have some down time to relax and would make them all the stronger to cope with the pressures of parenting. Plus if said agreement was reached mutually their would be no one dragging them to court.
Good point. Very good point. It would have made all the difference in my life, I can tell you that.0 -
metrovelvet wrote: »Good point. Very good point. It would have made all the difference in my life, I can tell you that.
I didn't mean you specifically as I don't know anything about your relationship, the childs father etc... I'd hate to be in any your or any other mothers shoes during those tough times, but you also have to think what else can a father do if given no other option. Give up on his child for a year? Miss out on probably the most crucial year of bonding with his child.0 -
you don't have to go to court with this. I've just this month being through this. If the partners are in agreement than all it takes is first getting the guardianship aggrement witnessed by a commisioner, than instead of going to court, one or two appointments with a solicitor and he will sign a rule of court which once signed by both parents a legally binding contract and no different than any court order imposed by a judge.
As I have said on other threads, we went to get that form signed but legally it has absolutely no standing in a courtroom (a friend of ours that is in the law profession told us this)0 -
wolfpawnat wrote: »As I have said on other threads, we went to get that form signed but legally it has absolutely no standing in a courtroom (a friend of ours that is in the law profession told us this)
the guardianship counts for nothing at all that is correct, but once its signed you can just agree on terms, get it signed by your professional and he can forward it to the court, than it only takes 10 minutes to have a judge acknowledge it although one parent has to be there. My ex didn't even come.0 -
Irish Times article from a few months back...Thousands of Irish fathers are finding they have no option but to take the legal route, writes BRIAN O'CONNELL
PATRICK* IS a father of one, recently separated from his wife and currently going through the courts to gain increased access to his child.
Every day for the past few months he has had to consult his solicitor. There are legal decisions to be made, letters to draft, court dates to try to tie down, psychiatrists to engage, allegations to respond to, and proposed schedules to draw up and negotiate.
All the time, an expanding file of acrimony between him and his wife is evolving. It’s a file that may take years to reverse and pacify. As matters stand, he has no access schedule for school or annual holidays, and no weekday arrangements.
While maintenance arrangements were put in place with relative ease, his suggestions of an extra Saturday or Sunday afternoon, or earlier pick up on weekends, have not met with approval.
Like thousands of Irish fathers, he finds himself with no other option but to take a legal route to secure and build upon access arrangements.
Prior to the separation with his wife, Patrick said he had heard anecdotes about the difficulties some men faced through the Irish family law system. Nothing though prepared him for the subsequent real life experience.
“While I want to minimise the legal adversarial aspect, it is more or less unavoidable. In our case, it’s about access to my child. I feel that access is being rationed out or doled out by my wife,” he says.
“It’s difficult to see the child frequently. The net result is that you have a child who wants to be with his dad and a dad who wants to be with his child, and it’s an uphill battle all the way.”
Many fathers such as Patrick say the law in Ireland has its roots in a different time, when the definitions of family were far more rigid.
“The Constitution was drafted in 1937 when male and female roles were very different to what they are now. The child’s voice is lost in it. I’m sure in my case if the child’s voice could be heard, he would want to see more of his dad,” he says.
The Law Reform Commission is committed to examining certain aspects of the Irish family law system, and is expected to consider a range of measures including: allowing fathers day-to-day care and contact with their children; the introduction of automatic guardianship and greater rights also for grandparents, thereby bringing Ireland in line with most of Europe.
Rachel O’Toole, a Cork-based solicitor who practises family law, believes there has already been significant improvement in the past decade in the area of family law and fathers’ rights.
The current recession though has had an impact on issues of access and maintenance. “Anecdotally, we’re hearing that a very common application is a reduction of maintenance, generally from father to mother,” says O’Toole.
“Access is quite a pressing issue also. I think there is still a sense that access is within the gift of the mother. What really needs to happen is for the focus to shift from parents to the child. It is the child’s right of access to the father in fact that we need to focus on.”
O’Toole says that decisions in relation to both maintenance and access can vary hugely from judge to judge. Overall though, she feels that fathers are getting more access and fairer hearings in recent years.
“Over the last number of years, my experience is that there has been a shift towards increased access for fathers. There is still ferocious work that needs to be done in respect of children’s rights,” she says.
“There is more of a tendency towards overnight access for example. Every case is different, but a common arrangement is every second weekend and mid-week access, along with quite generous holiday access. I see that more often than I did 10 years ago.”
Ray Kelly, an advocate for fathers’ rights and founder of Unmarried and Separated Fathers of Ireland (USFI), agrees that fathers are getting more time with their children in comparison to a decade ago.
“The average access 10 years ago was about six hours a week. Today, it’s working out about 24 hours a week and the majority of guys are getting overnights. I am happy to be able to say that,” he says.
But while the family law system may be changing, and individual judges are more accommodating, perhaps the slowness in bringing Ireland’s laws in line with other European countries is due to a lack of public outrage from separated or unmarried fathers.
“I protest publicly about the bias in the family law system four times a year and between 50 and 70 people attend. I would deal with that number of fathers on a weekly basis looking for advice and support. I think that men find it hard to come to our support groups and find it hard to pick up the phone and look for help.”
Why is it so hard for Irish fathers to make their feelings known?
“I think that dads whose main focus is to fight to see more of their children are afraid to put their heads above the parapet in case it affects their standing,” says Patrick.
“I think it is probably in the nature of Irish men from the age of 30 up not to bring personal issues like that into the public domain. There is a sense of wanting to sort it privately rather than take to the streets over it. That’s the Irish way.”
* Patrick’s name has been changed at his request
I think this article very clearly shows how negotiations can fall apart and things can become adversarial at the expense of the children's happiness.
I wonder would the government consider introducing not just automatic rights to both parents equally without polarisation or gender bias, but also advocate and possibly insist on state-run mediation before either party can go to court?
It could help prevent a difficult situation from turning irreversibly hostile, and possibly even create an amicable, agreeable line of communication between both parents despite thier personal feelings for one another, all for the good of the children.0 -
Irish Times article from a few months back...Thousands of Irish fathers are finding they have no option but to take the legal route, writes BRIAN O'CONNELL
PATRICK* IS a father of one, recently separated from his wife and currently going through the courts to gain increased access to his child.
Every day for the past few months he has had to consult his solicitor. There are legal decisions to be made, letters to draft, court dates to try to tie down, psychiatrists to engage, allegations to respond to, and proposed schedules to draw up and negotiate.
All the time, an expanding file of acrimony between him and his wife is evolving. It’s a file that may take years to reverse and pacify. As matters stand, he has no access schedule for school or annual holidays, and no weekday arrangements.
While maintenance arrangements were put in place with relative ease, his suggestions of an extra Saturday or Sunday afternoon, or earlier pick up on weekends, have not met with approval.
Like thousands of Irish fathers, he finds himself with no other option but to take a legal route to secure and build upon access arrangements.
Prior to the separation with his wife, Patrick said he had heard anecdotes about the difficulties some men faced through the Irish family law system. Nothing though prepared him for the subsequent real life experience.
“While I want to minimise the legal adversarial aspect, it is more or less unavoidable. In our case, it’s about access to my child. I feel that access is being rationed out or doled out by my wife,” he says.
“It’s difficult to see the child frequently. The net result is that you have a child who wants to be with his dad and a dad who wants to be with his child, and it’s an uphill battle all the way.”
Many fathers such as Patrick say the law in Ireland has its roots in a different time, when the definitions of family were far more rigid.
“The Constitution was drafted in 1937 when male and female roles were very different to what they are now. The child’s voice is lost in it. I’m sure in my case if the child’s voice could be heard, he would want to see more of his dad,” he says.
The Law Reform Commission is committed to examining certain aspects of the Irish family law system, and is expected to consider a range of measures including: allowing fathers day-to-day care and contact with their children; the introduction of automatic guardianship and greater rights also for grandparents, thereby bringing Ireland in line with most of Europe.
Rachel O’Toole, a Cork-based solicitor who practises family law, believes there has already been significant improvement in the past decade in the area of family law and fathers’ rights.
The current recession though has had an impact on issues of access and maintenance. “Anecdotally, we’re hearing that a very common application is a reduction of maintenance, generally from father to mother,” says O’Toole.
“Access is quite a pressing issue also. I think there is still a sense that access is within the gift of the mother. What really needs to happen is for the focus to shift from parents to the child. It is the child’s right of access to the father in fact that we need to focus on.”
O’Toole says that decisions in relation to both maintenance and access can vary hugely from judge to judge. Overall though, she feels that fathers are getting more access and fairer hearings in recent years.
“Over the last number of years, my experience is that there has been a shift towards increased access for fathers. There is still ferocious work that needs to be done in respect of children’s rights,” she says.
“There is more of a tendency towards overnight access for example. Every case is different, but a common arrangement is every second weekend and mid-week access, along with quite generous holiday access. I see that more often than I did 10 years ago.”
Ray Kelly, an advocate for fathers’ rights and founder of Unmarried and Separated Fathers of Ireland (USFI), agrees that fathers are getting more time with their children in comparison to a decade ago.
“The average access 10 years ago was about six hours a week. Today, it’s working out about 24 hours a week and the majority of guys are getting overnights. I am happy to be able to say that,” he says.
But while the family law system may be changing, and individual judges are more accommodating, perhaps the slowness in bringing Ireland’s laws in line with other European countries is due to a lack of public outrage from separated or unmarried fathers.
“I protest publicly about the bias in the family law system four times a year and between 50 and 70 people attend. I would deal with that number of fathers on a weekly basis looking for advice and support. I think that men find it hard to come to our support groups and find it hard to pick up the phone and look for help.”
Why is it so hard for Irish fathers to make their feelings known?
“I think that dads whose main focus is to fight to see more of their children are afraid to put their heads above the parapet in case it affects their standing,” says Patrick.
“I think it is probably in the nature of Irish men from the age of 30 up not to bring personal issues like that into the public domain. There is a sense of wanting to sort it privately rather than take to the streets over it. That’s the Irish way.”
* Patrick’s name has been changed at his request
I think this article very clearly shows how negotiations can fall apart and things can become adversarial at the expense of the children's happiness.
I wonder would the government consider introducing not just automatic rights to both parents equally without polarisation or gender bias, but also advocate and possibly insist on state-run mediation before either party can go to court?
It could help prevent a difficult situation from turning irreversibly hostile, and possibly even create an amicable, agreeable line of communication between both parents despite thier personal feelings for one another, all for the good of the children.0 -
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I've posted this just for any Limerick Boardsies in need of support/advice, they seem like a good group to connect with!
Article hereMEMBERS of MILES (Men in Limerick Experiencing Separation) are adamant that the judicial system and both voluntary and statutory bodies within this country, are unjust and serve the needs of women before men.
Joe Wallace, secretary of MILES, argues there is an imbalance in the legal system in favour of women.
“It is a little known fact that 60 per cent of incidences of domestic violence in this country are incited by women and when a garda is called to a house regardless of the situation, the man is always asked to leave”.
Joe explained what he claims to be a double-standard in the Irish legal system. “If a man steps out of line regarding maintenance or otherwise, he is always punished”.
John O’Callaghan, managing director of the group, also feels very strongly about this. He said: “It is generally accepted that men can survive on their own. But this is not true and many men we have dealt with have had to sleep in cars after being asked to leave their home”.
He feels that it is easier for both parents if separation is amicable and they share the responsibility of parenting the child. “If the responsibility is shared, the child will have more balance and structure in their life”.
John agreed with this assessment and believes “men have a very positive role to play in the family. Statistics show that children are better behaved if their father is in the picture. It also has to be acknowledged that many single parents do a great job”.
He argues: “Many men that come to our meetings are being denied the right to see their children, which are being used as pawns.”
Joe agreed. “Some of the lads that come down might not see their child for a year, even though they’re legally entitled to, but when their custody case comes up in court nothing happens”.
He provided an example of one man they had dealt with. “He had to slept on a bus shelter just outside the city centre. His wife had kicked him out because he had lost his job and was doing a FAS course while she maintained a high salary, so she just got tired of him and kicked him out”.
John claims that the legal system is geared towards protecting women. “If a man goes to the guards with a complaint of verbal or physical abuse, he is told to go home and think about it and have a cup of tea, but if a woman goes in with the same complaint, the man will be brought in for questioning and a report will be filed”.
He also believes that society misjudges separation. “It is widely accepted that separation has less of an effect on men and our situation is less recognised by state and voluntary bodies. For example, social workers are trained to protect the mother of the children”.
Joe said that separated men are treated like second class citizens. “We are often denied access to our children and are treated like criminals. Because proper support services are not in place, separated men often become a burden on the state as separation affects their mental health and well-being jobs are often lost”.
MILES argue that Family Law cases should be removed from the Criminal Court and they should take place elsewhere. “It’s demeaning and demoralising to be put in with criminals when you haven’t broken the law”.
The emotional support group for men was established in 2004 as a HSE initiative, and is waiting for charitable status. It is funded by the HSE and PAUL partnership.
John explained what the group has to offer. “Traditionally, when a marriage broke down men often had nowhere to turn for support but now we offer that service”.
He promoted the benefits of the group. “It gives separated men a chance to talk to other men in a similar situation”.
The group offer a confidential non-judgemental environment for men to talk freely about their separation.
MILES get men of all ages from all sections of society from architects to sales reps to doctors, often mentally destroyed by separation.
At meetings, the group provide emotional support, guidance, information and guest speakers.
Joe Wallace, secretary, interjected. “We also offer men support.... if they are court, we will travel down with them.”
MILES also provides advice and counselling for issues that affect men after separation such as legal rights, anger management, addiction and parenting.
The group use funding they receive to produce literature, provide training courses and operate their helpline.
They hope to secure funding in the near future to open an office space/drop-in centre in the city centre where separated men can present themselves.
Back to John: “To the guys out there that are sitting at home suffering in silence, you’ll meet a nice group of people at MILES.. Don’t have any preconceived notions when you arrive because it will be totally different to what you expect”.
He explained, “We don’t judge anyone that comes through the door, we let them talk and give them guidance”.
He concluded: “It’s a safe non-judgemental space where the mental health of the men that come in is our priority. I’ve broken down and cried during meetings about my own problems and listening to the abuse other men have suffered”.
The group meets every Thursday at 8.30pm in the Social Services Centre on Henry Street.0
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