Help with Freeview across the sea to Co.Down?

reboot

Deleted User wrote: »

The subject extreme fringe UK freeview HD reception is the subject you want.

More than 60 miles from the tx I would regard as extreme fringe.

You would want a team of qualified Arquiva engineers at your site with the proper equipment and the exact data from their tx's[power,offsets,nulls,panel direction etc etc] in order to properly ascertain why you are not receiving T2 from the isle of man.
You've a perfect excuse to get them out there because you have no analogue reception.
If they are not responding,the usual next thing to do would be to get a group of locals afflicted by the same problem together and if theres enough of them,then you bring the issue to local councilors,mp and am.

They may say it's just not economical to put in a new relay and advise satelite.
Many locals already using sat will be a problem for any campaign as they won't be bothered.

On a positive note,the new type of dtt,even sd freeview is more robust than the old type.
Installers down here are telling me that it's getting to places that analogue didn't,so you may get a pleasant surprise when Divis is turned up and changed over.
Your pleasant surprise might come from a different tx and even kilkeel either...thats going to require you doing more dx'ing to try find out post dso in normal non lift weather.

I am told that Tx is 47 miles away,and I am doing this to help a friend,who also ownes the computer.
I take on board your suggestions,but have observed that even when I have looked to Wales,Dxing,the HD signal appears to be the weakest and the first to drop out is this true? If so where would this leave people in the city who will not erect proper aerials?
Perhaps as mentioned before there should be ,as I think you are suggesting,a Thread "Fringe UK Freeview HD"Don't know about extreme.
I don't know much about it ,except for the sad experience this person has endured,at my behest,having paid £400 for a new Freeview HD Tele.
If asked in future I might say "The worst vice,is advice."
Good luck Kipure after the 11th.

lucernarian

60 miles is not so extreme considering the distances many people are from the main transmission sites. Particularly Cairn Hill's reach from east Galway to Drogheda. And RTE's coverage map claims that a square near my folks' house is best served by Mt Leinster(!). That patch of hillside would by then have a co-channel battle with Kilkeel... Much of the house itself has reception of DTT from Cairn hill with an indoor aerial. Which is about 60 miles.

Peter Rhea

reboot wrote: »

From my point of view and the experience we both seem to have of this particular DVB-T2 Freeview HD reception problem ,I think it may be time to wrap it up and try to reach some kind of conlusion.

The only conclusion we can reach in this case is that reception of Freeview HD on UHF channel 50 from IOM is difficult at your specific location.

As pointed out above, more information needs to be gathered over a wider area & in a more professional manner by people who know exactly what they're dealing with, before any real problem can be identified.

It is rather annoying that the SD channels seem to work without problems but professional measurement could show even this to be borderline.

I have no experience of T2 reception BTW.

Peter Rhea

The only advice I can give, and you've probably already tried it, is to test as many different aerial locations (as distinct from bearings) as possible, be they some distance apart on the property, or maybe only relatively small movements up, down, left, right or even backwards & forwards on your current mast setup.

reboot

Peter Rhea wrote: »

The only advice I can give, and you've probably already tried it, is to test as many different aerial locations (as distinct from bearings) as possible, be they some distance apart on the property, or maybe only relatively small movements up, down, left, right or even backwards & forwards on your current mast setup.

Thanks for your continuing interest in the problem,yes I have tried the following ,over a period of many weeks,before and after work appears to have been carried out at the Tx,(re Post code checker).
Tried different aerials at different locations on the property.
With no amp,DVB-T,SD reception ,no problem,100%.No HD or very seldom,Signal 90% intermittent,no or hardly any S/N (Quality)
With a variable gain amp still no stable DVB-T2 HD signal.
Even switched almost everthing electrical in the house off.
As mentioned before similar HD reception,in particular,its the first sig to drop out from Wales.SD not as sensitive to interference,(If thats the problem,as suggested by Watty from the start.
If this subject is to be pursued in the future, I think another thread would suggest itself,as folk keep going from T to T2,understandably
Perhaps "Problems receiving Freeview HD UK,only"? .
Otherwise the subject is confusing from parts of the contry,receiving RTE on DVB-T and SFN.etc,or where people have not yet experienced the problem because they haven't yet bought the STB or Freeview HD TV.

mrdtv2010

I admire your tenacity and thoroughness. However I think the main problems at your location are likely to be interference as you are outside the protected service area. Port St Mary is the dominant transmitter @ 2kW in the SFN, but you are well outside the area where the SFN works. Strong co-channel interferers are likely to be present from Llanddona COM muxes, although the North West radiation pattern of Llanddona post-DSO is not known. DigitalUK and Arqiva were well aware of the problems and there was also a special Port-St Mary newsletter about the power up where interference from Cairn Hill was noted. It is likely that CH50 in your area has pathological RF conditions. There is no reason to suppose that the coverage of DVB-T2 is different for DVB-T1, given identical antenna radiation patterns, as the mode chosen for T2 in the UK has virtually the same carrier/noise ratio in order to provide virtually identical coverage for equal HAAT and ERPs of transmitters. Have you tried Moel-y-Parc?

It's impossible to give a definitive answer as we don't know the true radiation patterns for these stations at particular RF channels: Arqiva like to keep this confidential.

lucernarian

For the HD mux alone, I still think Caldbeck offers the best chance. It's a very high antenna broadcasting at 100kW ERP though I don't know how directional it is. Ch. 30 is barely used throughout the UK and Ireland even after DSO here. With a big enough Group A aerial and an amp and a bit of height, this could be successful.

reboot

mrdtv2010 wrote: »

I admire your tenacity and thoroughness. However I think the main problems at your location are likely to be interference as you are outside the protected service area. Port St Mary is the dominant transmitter @ 2kW in the SFN, but you are well outside the area where the SFN works. Strong co-channel interferers are likely to be present from Llanddona COM muxes, although the North West radiation pattern of Llanddona post-DSO is not known. DigitalUK and Arqiva were well aware of the problems and there was also a special Port-St Mary newsletter about the power up where interference from Cairn Hill was noted. It is likely that CH50 in your area has pathological RF conditions. There is no reason to suppose that the coverage of DVB-T2 is different for DVB-T1, given identical antenna radiation patterns, as the mode chosen for T2 in the UK has virtually the same carrier/noise ratio in order to provide virtually identical coverage for equal HAAT and ERPs of transmitters. Have you tried Moel-y-Parc?

It's impossible to give a definitive answer as we don't know the true radiation patterns for these stations at particular RF channels: Arqiva like to keep this confidential.

Very interesting,I will go away and consider your information.
I therefore assume when the "Post code checker" indicates that as HD is being transmitted from IOM,it doesn't follow that in all cases where the SD signal is being received at 100% strength and quality that the HD signal will appear at all,due to interference of an unknown source?
Sounds like a health warning should be placed on STB and HD TV's.
"Outside the protected area ",for example.Don't see any mention of that on the Checker.
Same problem seems to exist on the Tx reception from Wales,although not to the same extent,but HD is always the first to fade.If I ever manage to receive Kilkeel will the problem still exist?
RTE on DVB-T has been rock steady from day one.Thanks again.

reboot

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

For the HD mux alone, I still think Caldbeck offers the best chance. It's a very high antenna broadcasting at 100kW ERP though I don't know how directional it is. Ch. 30 is barely used throughout the UK and Ireland even after DSO here. With a big enough Group A aerial and an amp and a bit of height, this could be successful.

Thanks for that will have another punt at it.Sad that I have to go to the expense and hastle of tring to receive the "New Technology" from another country,when I can see the Isle of Mann out of the window!
Seems like a design defect somewhere,and a great boost for Sky?
Interesting to wait and see if more relays in the country pose a similar problem ,or is this a one off.

Vince Cable

reboot wrote: »

. . . it doesn't follow that in all cases where the SD signal is being received at 100% strength and quality that the HD signal will appear at all

Do tvs measure signal quality before or after error correction?

As someone pointed out previously, your 'perfect' SD signal may be nothing of the sort.

reboot wrote: »

Seems like a design defect somewhere,and a great boost for Sky?
Interesting to wait and see if more relays in the country pose a similar problem ,or is this a one off.

Check out the UK forums, they have plenty of experience of T2 reception, main site, relay, even some SFNs.

reboot

Vince Cable wrote: »

Do tvs measure signal quality before or after error correction?

As someone pointed out previously, your 'perfect' SD signal may be nothing of the sort



Check out the UK forums, they have plenty of experience of T2 reception, main site, relay, even some SFNs.

Thanks,will check out forum on SFN;s.,although "Perfect SD signal has resulted in "Perfect pictures "for months.

reboot

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

For the HD mux alone, I still think Caldbeck offers the best chance. It's a very high antenna broadcasting at 100kW ERP though I don't know how directional it is. Ch. 30 is barely used throughout the UK and Ireland even after DSO here. With a big enough Group A aerial and an amp and a bit of height, this could be successful.

Take your point on CH30,alas not a sniff from here,sorry Caldbeck for small error on your location,was thinking of previous post re Wales.
I feel some folk not happy with my findings,and I hear some music in the background,,could it be the "Last Post?"

lucernarian

reboot wrote: »

Take your point on CH30,alas not a sniff from here,sorry Caldbeck for small error on your location,was thinking of previous post re Wales.
I feel some folk not happy with my findings,and I hear some music in the background,,could it be the "Last Post?"

I don't quite follow you. You mentioned earlier that you might have another punt at Caldbeck, did you try this today?

Vince Cable

Vince Cable wrote: »

Check out the UK forums . . .

This thread might be worth keeping an eye on; http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1474946

reboot

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

I don't quite follow you. You mentioned earlier that you might have another punt at Caldbeck, did you try this today?

Sorry to take so long to get back to you on your suggestion of looking for Caldbeck from S.Down,nothing I am afraid being received at this location from said Tx.
The problem appears to be solved as discussed elsewhere ,by panning inland away from IOM Tx,and thereby getting rid of intereference from Wales on Ch 50 HD.

Peddyr

reboot wrote: »

Sorry to take so long to get back to you on your suggestion of looking for Caldbeck from S.Down,nothing I am afraid being received at this location from said Tx.
The problem appears to be solved as discussed elsewhere ,by panning inland away from IOM Tx,and thereby getting rid of intereference from Wales on Ch 50 HD.

Does that mean that you've 'panned' away far enough to cut out Welsh CCI and are now getting IOM Tx HD ok on Ch50??

reboot

Peddyr wrote: »

Does that mean that you've 'panned' away far enough to cut out Welsh CCI and are now getting IOM Tx HD ok on Ch50??

The answer to your question was yes,but pan too far North and the culpret appears to be Ch 42 and 49,which wipe out 42 ,43,and 50 IOM.
On a slightly related topic ,I appear to be seeing a digital carrier of some kind on the following from Castlewellan direction,looking to camlough.
Ch,52,54,56,58,61,66,and 68.Any ideas?No Quality of pics.

Peter Rhea

52, 56, 66 & 68 are Clermont Carn analogue, 54, 58 & 61 are Camlough analogue as well as 54 & 58 being used by Three Rock/Kippure, as you know.

42 & 49 are used by Ramsey, IOM & Kilkeel, as well as Moel-Y-Parc to the south.

reboot

Peter Rhea wrote: »

52, 56, 66 & 68 are Clermont Carn analogue, 54, 58 & 61 are Camlough analogue as well as 54 & 58 being used by Three Rock/Kippure, as you know.

42 & 49 are used by Ramsey, IOM & Kilkeel, as well as Moel-Y-Parc to the south.

Many thanks for coming back on this,I cannot understand this,as I am using a little rec/monitor switched to DTT,not Analogue.
Shall investigate further.The comments made by Sam are also very interesting.

reboot

Peter Rhea wrote: »

52, 56, 66 & 68 are Clermont Carn analogue, 54, 58 & 61 are Camlough analogue as well as 54 & 58 being used by Three Rock/Kippure, as you know.

42 & 49 are used by Ramsey, IOM & Kilkeel, as well as Moel-Y-Parc to the south.

Could it be,that I am picking up interference from Moel-Y-Parc on the IOM rig which as you know is Group B /V,and that this interference is coming from the back of the Yagi?,( it is looking N.and West of IOM.)
Alls well at present ,including HD on Ch 50,but two days ago,I could only receive Ch 42 and 49 and not even SD from IOM.

Vince Cable

reboot wrote: »

Could it be,that I am picking up interference from Moel-Y-Parc on the IOM rig which as you know is Group B /V,and that this interference is coming from the back of the Yagi?

Interference to what? MYP isn't co-channel with Port St. Mary or Beary Peark & adjacent channels have to be very much stronger than the wanted channel to cause problems.

reboot

Vince Cable wrote: »

Interference to what? MYP isn't co-channel with Port St. Mary or Beary Peark & adjacent channels have to be very much stronger than the wanted channel to cause problems.

Quite so.
The reception has improved somewhat by removing the mast head amp,and after a long run of co-ax,feeding the attenuated signal into a variable gain amp.The aerial is panned approx 5 degrees off the Tx.
HD signal steady during the day but disappeared last night,due to prop and trop?
Thanks for your input,still a bit of a mystery though.

Vince Cable

5 degrees is hardly worth talking about & well within anyone's margin for error. Also, there are 3 txs using those channels on IOM, 2 of which should be receivable at your location at least to the point where the weaker one could cause interference.

Seems like random variations in the signal are appearing to coincide with your alterations to the setup. If I wasn't getting a usable signal all the time, I wouldn't bother.

Peter Rhea

Vince Cable wrote: »

Also, there are 3 txs using those channels on IOM

There's actually 5 of them, the 3 that form the SFN & those at Laxey (20W) & Union Mills (2.5W).
Terrain seems to lend itself to frequency re-use in a relatively small area.

Peter Rhea

Vince Cable wrote: »

5 degrees is hardly worth talking about & well within anyone's margin for error.

Might be all it takes to null out an off beam co-channel tx though, without reference to the exact bearing of the wanted one?

Vince Cable

Peter Rhea wrote: »

There's actually 5 of them, the 3 that form the SFN & those at Laxey (20W) & Union Mills (2.5W).

Those latter 2, along with Jurby (40W) are hardly likely to trouble anyone in Co. Down though.
Port St. Mary (2kW) & Beary Peark (200W) are the only ones I'd be thinking about. BP also has the advantage of height.

reboot

Vince Cable wrote: »

5 degrees is hardly worth talking about & well within anyone's margin for error. Also, there are 3 txs using those channels on IOM, 2 of which should be receivable at your location at least to the point where the weaker one could cause interference.

Seems like random variations in the signal are appearing to coincide with your alterations to the setup. If I wasn't getting a usable signal all the time, I wouldn't bother.

Seems like good advice,will just have to go back to my other location,where I can enjoy 4 analogue signals,three in 4/3 format from Camlough.

Peter Rhea

Here's a piece by Bill Wright about combining aerials to discriminate against unwanted signals (you have to know where they're coming from though).

Also an older article on the same theme, it's called 'Eliminating Ghosts' & demonstrates the same phasing technique for nulling out unwanted signals.

reboot

Peter Rhea wrote: »

Here's a piece by Bill Wright about combining aerials to discriminate against unwanted signals (you have to know where they're coming from though).

Thanks for that will take time and read it properly.
I believe the interference comes from Llanddona as suggested before on the thread,interesting that post code checker now saying that HD reception is not possible from this location.Well it is now.

petronius

I wonder if you could post reception reports here
http://ukfreeview.mpeg4ireland.com/map

It may be good for others to see what is possible

reboot

petronius wrote: »

I wonder if you could post reception reports here
http://ukfreeview.mpeg4ireland.com/map

It may be good for others to see what is possible

Thanks ,have done I think,no mention of IOM Tx,have put me at Arfon?
But some of the report makes sense I hope.

Peddyr

petronius wrote: »

I wonder if you could post reception reports here
http://ukfreeview.mpeg4ireland.com/map

It may be good for others to see what is possible

You might want to include Port St Mary Tx in the IOM which is being received in parts of Counties Down & Louth and maybe the Beary Pairk Tx also?

reboot

Peddyr wrote: »

You might want to include Port St Mary Tx in the IOM which is being received in parts of Counties Down & Louth and maybe the Beary Pairk Tx also?

Picking up a weak sig.on RTE Mux1 and 2 outside Castlewellan on Ch.44 and 47,Cairn Hill B/H?
Might be better looking for Monaghan?.Hard to find out ERP details etc.

Peter Rhea

Might be asking a bit much of Monaghan over that distance & terrain.

As for ERPs, there's nothing published afaik & I don't think there's much point relating them to the analogue levels, for the smaller sites anyway as analogue UHF coverage is often poor.

reboot

Peter Rhea wrote: »

Might be asking a bit much of Monaghan over that distance & terrain.

As for ERPs, there's nothing published afaik & I don't think there's much point relating them to the analogue levels, for the smaller sites anyway as analogue UHF coverage is often poor.

You are right of course,I was just so pleased to pick up the HD from RTE ,plus the Mux 2 sig,and could have been away on a hack with the Technika box for £30.
Alas I don't have the height,and by the time I moved to higher ground,the cable run was too much.
Could find nothing on Monaghan even though line of site it would be closer.I think the two Channels,(44 and 47 only),may be from Cairn Hill,long way off but a lockable picture ,when it didn't fade.
Will just have to wait,and go back to Camlough and 4 by 3 pictures.
Maybe at least the Dab Tx will fire up soon?

reboot

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

For the HD mux alone, I still think Caldbeck offers the best chance. It's a very high antenna broadcasting at 100kW ERP though I don't know how directional it is. Ch. 30 is barely used throughout the UK and Ireland even after DSO here. With a big enough Group A aerial and an amp and a bit of height, this could be successful.

Have eventually gone back to your helpful suggestion and Caldbeck appears to be the solution to HD reception as you pointed ,out on Ch 30.
So far so good ,awaiting return of normal Irish weather.

reboot

reboot wrote: »

Have eventually gone back to your helpful suggestion and Caldbeck appears to be the solution to HD reception as you pointed ,out on Ch 30.
So far so good ,awaiting return of normal Irish weather.

Gone again,give up!

reboot

Peter Rhea wrote: »

Might be all it takes to null out an off beam co-channel tx though, without reference to the exact bearing of the wanted one?

Considered panning way off IOM for ch 50,(Vince Cable,suggesting 5 degrees making no difference),HD returns,and SD still with me (Again given HP lift etc).
Sony Bravia not outputting the menu on Video out,not making this easy.Have had to resort to Tesco STB on the roof.feeding monitor in.
Must be nice to have proper gear.
Hope someone interested in this,don't want to bang on if no one interested.
BBC replied,saying "If we had ham,we could have ham and eggs,but we have no eggs."

Mr. Rabbit

reboot wrote: »

Gone again,give up!

Sorry if this has been mentioned before but, have you tried Cambrett Hill in Southwest Scotland reboot ?

Although it's Freeview Lite (there's talk the com. operators are interested in this transmitter) , I'm currently receiving all 4 HD channels reasonably well here in Jordanstown South Antrim. This transmitter also comes in well over much of East Down (the Ards Peninsula for example). For some odd reason, reception seems to have improved dramatically over the last few weeks.

I take it Kilkeel will be your local TV transmitter after DSO ?

Kilkeel will also be Freeview lite so maybe your best bet is Freesat, rather than wasting any more money on terrestrial.

Vince Cable

Are you sure it's still Cambret Hill you're getting?

What channels are the muxes on?

Mr. Rabbit

Vince Cable wrote: »

Are you sure it's still Cambret Hill you're getting?

What channels are the muxes on?

Positive.

Channels are 41 and 44. HD multiplex is on 47 (horizontally polarized)

Whilst out for a walk yesterday ,evening I noticed a few aerials vetically polarized and pointing east. I'm wondering if Stranraer is receivable around here as well ? I could get a signal from it before DSO.

Mr. Rabbit

I get some channels from Caldbeck under lift conditions.

Digifriendly

Mr. Rabbit wrote: »

Sorry if this has been mentioned before but, have you tried Cambrett Hill in Southwest Scotland reboot ?

Although it's Freeview Lite (there's talk the com. operators are interested in this transmitter) , I'm currently receiving all 4 HD channels reasonably well here in Jordanstown South Antrim. This transmitter also comes in well over much of East Down (the Ards Peninsula for example). For some odd reason, reception seems to have improved dramatically over the last few weeks.

I take it Kilkeel will be your local TV transmitter after DSO ?

Kilkeel will also be Freeview lite so maybe your best bet is Freesat, rather than wasting any more money on terrestrial.

A TV in our church hall in Moira has picked up Cambret Hill on high pressure days but then lost it again. Having read reports of improved signal from this transmitter on these boards I tried to receive it on Saturday from the idtv but unfortunately not a whiff came through.

reboot

Mr. Rabbit wrote: »

Sorry if this has been mentioned before but, have you tried Cambrett Hill in Southwest Scotland reboot ?

Although it's Freeview Lite (there's talk the com. operators are interested in this transmitter) , I'm currently receiving all 4 HD channels reasonably well here in Jordanstown South Antrim. This transmitter also comes in well over much of East Down (the Ards Peninsula for example). For some odd reason, reception seems to have improved dramatically over the last few weeks.

I take it Kilkeel will be your local TV transmitter after DSO ?

Kilkeel will also be Freeview lite so maybe your best bet is Freesat, rather than wasting any more money on terrestrial.

thanks for the suggestion,but I have to agree with Vince Cable,Caldbeck is A/H and HD on Ch 30.
If you scroll up on this thread you will find I looked at Caldbeck,in fact changed the whole set up here ,and was disappointed when after stunning results ,found it too like IOM was transient,with weather conditions.
Can't receive Kilkeel annalouge at this location due to local terraine,so don't hold out much hope for DVB-T2.
The RTE system appears to be much more robust as a transmission system at this location,although I know there are benifits of the BBC/ITV system.
Is it more likely that you are looking at Wales?,which is romping in under lift conditions,but pity the man who expects to watch a programe from start to finish.
I would be grateful if anyone could confirm if Caldbeck has an increase in ERP,for what ever reason,then its back to the chimney pot,only looking for 3 UK,HD channels,not much to ask for the licence fee.

Vince Cable

Mr. Rabbit is referring to Cambret Hill, a Scottish relay of Caldbeck.

The only reason I queried him on this is because Black Hill which is co-channel has recently gone to full power, so I would have expected reception to have worsened, if anything.

reboot

Vince Cable wrote: »

Mr. Rabbit is referring to Cambret Hill, a Scottish relay of Caldbeck.

The only reason I queried him on this is because Black Hill which is co-channel has recently gone to full power, so I would have expected reception to have worsened, if anything.

Sorry for my confusion,post switching between Cambret Hill and Caldbeck.Pity C Hill is vert,not that easy for me to have a look,but worth a try. Thanks to you and Mr.Rabbit

Peter Rhea

Cambret Hill is horizontal polarisation.

reboot

Peter Rhea wrote: »

Cambret Hill is horizontal polarisation.

Right again,sorry I meant IOM is vert and C Hill Hor,hence my problem in getting to the aerial to switch polarity,and will it be worth the effort.?
Sony Bravia thinks it is seeing a sig on Ch 51M,whats with the M?

Mr. Rabbit

Vince Cable wrote: »

Mr. Rabbit is referring to Cambret Hill, a Scottish relay of Caldbeck.

The only reason I queried him on this is because Black Hill which is co-channel has recently gone to full power, so I would have expected reception to have worsened, if anything.

Could be the reason for the better reception Vince, especially if Cambrett Hill is being directed away from Black Hill.

It's definitely been a more robust and stable signal at this location over the last few weeks so it'll be interesting to see what it's like when the bad weather starts in October. Freeview is afected by heavy rain and bad weather, especially if you're on the edge if the service area.

Can't receive Kilkeel annalouge at this location due to local terraine

Very surprised at that reboot as the map on Brian Butterworth's site dioes show quite extensive coverage stretching into Annalong:

http://www.ukfree.tv/shutdowndetail.php?tx=IJ281180

Obviously Freesat along with Saorview from either Clermont Cairn, Three Rock, or Kippure, is probably your best bet if that's the case.

If your not getting either Caldbeck, Winter Hill, or Moel-y-Parc on terrestrial, then there's probably no point faffing around and wasting any more money on terrestrial.

lucernarian

Going on maps I have and also Google Streetview, Kilkeel's coverage stretches up the A2 as far as George's Quay. Annalong and the immediate area seems to be well within coverage. I'm also suprised at the lack of Kilkeel reception.