Looks like there is travel chaos aheaf for 41X users.

richard2010

Here we go again...chaos for Swords Commuters!!


Taken from the Irish Times today: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0731/1224275911179.html

Minister erred in bus dispute, rules judge

A PRIVATE bus company has won a High Court order overturning the Minister for Transport’s decision allowing Dublin Bus operate a rival service on a route operating between Swords and Dublin city centre via the Port Tunnel. Mr Justice Bryan McMahon ruled the Minister had erred in concluding there was no competition between the service operated by Digital Messenger Ltd, trading as Swords Express, and that of Dublin Bus. Swords Express, Lower Grand Canal Street, Dublin, had argued the Minister’s August 2009 decision allowing the Dublin Bus service on the Port Tunnel route was flawed because it was based on a report from consultants which did not address the issue of competition, but rather the issue of competitive advantage. Swords Express also argued the Minister unlawfully delayed in making a decision on its application for a licence for an additional road service. The Minister denied the claims. On the basis of his findings, the judge made orders quashing the Minister’s decisions to permit Dublin Bus to operate the altered 41X passenger service route between Swords and Dublin city centre via the Port Tunnel. He also quashed the ruling that the altered 41X service did not compete with the Swords Express service. The judge also granted a declaration the Minister unlawfully delayed in making a decision on the application by Swords Express in February 2008 for a second service. The judge noted Swords Express had commenced operating a bus service between the city centre and Swords via the tunnel after obtaining a licence from the Minister in October 2007. Encouraged by its success, it applied for a second passenger licence. Between March and June 2008, Dublin Bus applied to the Minister to re-route the 41X service between Swords and the city centre through the tunnel. The department determined Dublin Bus was not in competition with Swords Express which meant Dublin Bus, a subsidised company, could operate the route. Swords Express contested the findings and the Minister later agreed to engage consultants, Booz Co, to assist in determining if there was competition on the route. It was also agreed that the Minister would use his best endeavours to decide on the Swords Express second licensing application within three months of deciding the competition issue. The consultants reported to the Minister there was competition on the route in February 2009. Dublin Bus then revised the 41x route by removing a stop at Ballintrane Wood on Forrest Road. In a second report, the consultants held the removal of that stop would remove Dublin Bus’s competitive advantage and restore a level playing field.The judge agreed with Swords Express that the Minister’s decision was wrong. The second report did not address the issue of competition but rather the question of competitive advantage and the Minister had erred, the judge found. In relying on the second consultant’s report, the Minister “had taken something into account which was not of statutory concern.”The first consultants report had firmly concluded Dublin Bus was in competition with Swords Express on the route and it was “difficult to understand” how the consultants could have found competition in the first report but no competition in the second report.
It was “even more difficult to understand” how the Minister, relying on those reports, reached his decision there was no competition due to the alteration of the route proposed by Dublin Bus.
The judge also rejected the argument that the delay in dealing with the second licence application was excused because that application was queued behind another application by a third party.

Opinions welcome on this.

Carawaystick

Passenger's interests don't appear anywhere in the judgement, which is why our public transport is so poor.

KC61

This case only continues to highlight the serious problems with the 1932 Transport Act. The judge followed the letter of the law which was completely operator focussed rather than consumer.

While a new Act was passed at the end of last year, the National Transport Authority is only beginning to find their feet, and it will probably be the end of the year before the new procedures kick in. They have issued draft guidelines on the issuing of licences, and are looking for public submissions on these as below:

The National Transport Authority invites members of the public to submit their views as part of a public consultation process on draft guidelines for the licensing of public bus passenger services.

The draft guidelines set out general information relating to the new commercial bus licensing system being introduced under the Public Transport Regulation Act 2009. The draft guidelines also provide advice to potential applicants on the processes that will apply to applications and the considerations that will inform decisions on those applications.

The draft guidelines are linked below or can be viewed at the Authority’s office (address below) from 9.15am to 1pm and from 2pm to 5pm. The latest date for receipt of written responses, by post or email, to this public consultation is THURSDAY 30TH SEPTEMBER 2010, BY 5.00PM.

Notice:
http://www.nationaltransport.ie/down...guidelines.pdf

Draft Guidelines:
http://www.nationaltransport.ie/down...r_services.pdf

Submissions relating to the draft guidelines should be sent by email to: draftguidelines@nationaltransport.ie or by post to:
National Transport Authority,
Floor 3, Block 6/7,
Irish Life Centre,
Dublin 1
Tel: 01 879 8300
See http://www.nationaltransport.ie/ for further information.

Sizzler

Anybody hear anything about this?

http://www.fingal-independent.ie/premium/news/future-uncertain-for-41x-after-court-ruling-2291207.html

wrote:

SWORDS' long-running bus war has re-erupted once more after a High Court order overturned the Minister for Transport's decision to allow Dublin Bus to use the Port Tunnel.

Presumably it will affect ALL DB routes using the port tunnel, 32X, 33x etc.

Auvers

Sizzler wrote: »

Presumably it will affect ALL DB routes using the port tunnel, 32X, 33x etc.

no the 33x is not using the same route as any other competing bus sevice

I think its because the Swords express already had a route in place from Swords and they lodged a complaint to stop Dublin bus using the tunnel that is why the 41x slightly alters their route slightly so it would be different to the Swords express to get around the legislation

Beasty

Threads merged

Beasty

shoegirl

Thing is, in fairness, would Dublin Bus ever have bothered to put a service through the tunnel had nobody else started a competing service? I think probably not. Dublin Bus have made only minute changes to the service since 1985, and mostly on the Swords and city ends of the route, leaving much of the rest of it mired in thick traffic and slow routes that don't really service anybody. With better airport services and the 16 extensions there is little reason why at least some Swords buses shouldn't route directly from Swords to Whitehall, which would take about 30 minutes off the journey and still service a considerable chunk of the original route.

(I know somebody will mention Northwood in Santry, but that place is so enormous I'd be surprised if it got many bus users).

KC61

shoegirl wrote: »

Thing is, in fairness, would Dublin Bus ever have bothered to put a service through the tunnel had nobody else started a competing service? I think probably not. Dublin Bus have made only minute changes to the service since 1985, and mostly on the Swords and city ends of the route, leaving much of the rest of it mired in thick traffic and slow routes that don't really service anybody. With better airport services and the 16 extensions there is little reason why at least some Swords buses shouldn't route directly from Swords to Whitehall, which would take about 30 minutes off the journey and still service a considerable chunk of the original route.

(I know somebody will mention Northwood in Santry, but that place is so enormous I'd be surprised if it got many bus users).

Dublin Bus had planned a high frequency route along the Swords QBC not serving the airport (route 141) but were prevented from doing so by one arm of the Department of Transport, despite buses being funded for it by another arm.

To be fair Swords has a 10/15 minute off-peak service and higher frequencies in the peak through the 41, 41b and 41c which is far more than was there in 1985.

As for the 41X - it is a totally different product to Swords Express - one is a premium high quality product, the other frankly, is an express bus.

Any changes are difficult to get through because of the Airport (and the number of private operators there) as the Department are very reluctant to allow Dublin Bus expand services in the area.

shoegirl

KC61 wrote: »

To be fair Swords has a 10/15 minute off-peak service and higher frequencies in the peak through the 41, 41b and 41c which is far more than was there in 1985.

The "X" was basically a simple express route when originally introduced in the early 90s. It always - like many cross city buses - suffered from having to cross considerable congestion in the centre of the city.

The frequency is certainly better - but in proportion to the actual growth level of Swords since the 1980s - I think it was approximately 17,000 in 1988 or so - its more than doubled in population but I certainly don't see double the level of buses - particularly not at peak times, where only one or two extra buses are added. Secondly, something I've particularly noticed is the dramatic decrease in bus use at peak hours - it used to be virtually impossible to get a bus between 07:45 and 8:15 - many were jammed before even the last stop on the Rathbeale Rd - in fact at one point they put a bus leaving from the main street to get around the capacity problem.

What HAS increased is the frequency to the Valley and parts of Swords other than Glassmore - Swords Manor.

The weekend and evening service has hardly changed much in about 20 years. Even the times of the last few buses are actually the same as they were in 1990.

misslt

FFS this bugs me - I use the 41X to get to Belfield. It's quick and its easy - and much much cheaper than the Swords Express.

The people who use the 41X to the city centre can use the Swords Express for an extra 50c or something per trip - but if I were to get the Swords Express to town then another bus to UCD its going to take forever and be so much more expensive.

:mad::mad::mad:

Sizzler

Unless swords express starts to serve the densely populated areas of Swords it aint real competition and they aint part of the annual bus ticket travel saver scheme so its going to be a non starter for lots of people.

Personally im amazed swords express is still going, apart from the peak times all their buses seem to be fairly empty (ie max 20 people) anytime I see them.

C.O.Y.B.I.B

Probably slightly OT , but does anyone know if/when the express will get a licence to operate as fas as Swords Manor. For occasional users SE is brilliant. Last week i was headin to the city , I left Swords Manor at 5.35 walked to villiage got the SE and was sitting having a pint off grafton St at 6.30. On the ordinary 41 , leaving at 5.35 , theres days you'd be just out of the airport at 6.30. I for one am delighted to be able to cut 45 mins (minimum) off the journey time for the sake of an extra 1.50.

KC61

mscull wrote: »

Probably slightly OT , but does anyone know if/when the express will get a licence to operate as fas as Swords Manor. For occasional users SE is brilliant. Last week i was headin to the city , I left Swords Manor at 5.35 walked to villiage got the SE and was sitting having a pint off grafton St at 6.30. On the ordinary 41 , leaving at 5.35 , theres days you'd be just out of the airport at 6.30. I for one am delighted to be able to cut 45 mins (minimum) off the journey time for the sake of an extra 1.50.

That is like asking someone to find a needle in a haystack!

The Department have been ludicrously slow in approving this and the plain answer is no one knows!

Clare_Culchie

I don't see the Swords Express and 41x being the same product at all. When SE start using low-floor wheel-chair friendly vehicles and comply with the integrated ticketing standards being rolled out among the other operators then, and only then, can they lay claim to ownership of their particular route(s). Until then DB should be able to run the routes that provide the best service to the general public.

antoinolachtnai

Clare_Culchie:

The 41x is not and never has been a wheel-chair accessible route.

Swords Express is fully engaged with the RPA's Integrated Ticketing System project. We want to get this working on our buses as soon as possible.

In addition, Swords Express have tried on a number of occasions to find a way to work with Dublin Bus to provide some sort of single ticket that would work on both Swords Express and Dublin Bus, and Dublin Bus have rebuffed the suggestion without any discussion.

mscull:

No one knows when SE will get a licence to extend the route. This is a matter for the politicians at this stage.

shoegirl:

According to the old timetable I have, there were 37 CIE services from Swords towards the city on a weekday from Swords in 1979. (At that stage, the 41A only went to/from the Airport and did not serve Swords). There were 12000 inhabitants in Swords in 1981. There were around 115 in 2007, including the services via the airport. Obviously, this is not a great service as these buses are considerably slowed by the diversion. And areas like Santry, which also depend on the 41's have also increased in population.

clunked

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The 41x is not and never has been a wheel-chair accessible route.

But of course over the next few months the entire Dublin Bus fleet will be completely wheelchair accessible. To be honest, its a while since I've seen a RV (step entrance only) bus on a 41X service.

Of course the real enemy is the Department Transport who seem mentally constipated in allowing a playing field where the travelling public, the state transport company and private operators are satisfied with the organisiation of Public Transport provision.

trad

If the entire Dublin Bus fleet goes wheelchair accessable it will be at our expense. All Dublin Bus or for that matter Bus Eireann's fleet are funded from the public purse. Private operators have to fund their own vehicles from operating revenue.

Personally I think it's a good day for private operators who got up of their backsides and used their own money to set up bus routes and took on the state - and won.

It'll be interesting to see what happens when the Circle Line case come up.

clunked

trad wrote: »

If the entire Dublin Bus fleet goes wheelchair accessable it will be at our expense. All Dublin Bus or for that matter Bus Eireann's fleet are funded from the public purse. Private operators have to fund their own vehicles from operating revenue.

Personally I think it's a good day for private operators who got up of their backsides and used their own money to set up bus routes and took on the state - and won.

It'll be interesting to see what happens when the Circle Line case come up.

I think the public are just interested in a proper public transport service. Personally I believe that a glut of small private operators attempting to cherry pick routes with unsuitable vehicles is a recipe for more people using their car.

M.J.M.C

The Swords Express is a disaster & i avoid it at all costs.

You try get a swords express at 5:30pm down the quays near the o2, unless you walk up to the laughter lounge you can expect the bus to drive by full at least twice.

How is it competition when it drops you to the pavilions also, leaving some people (me included) with a 30minute walk.

Since Dublin Bus can't go thru the tunnel coming back to swords, the Swords Express can charge an outlandish 4euro coming home. 4 euro!!!!!!!!!

It's a joke, if any of these consultants lived in the swords area and got the SE home for a month, they would see its hardly a competition.

They need to sort out that proposal for the SE to server applewood/swords manor - OR - allow the 41x to go back through the tunnel

KC61

M.J.M.C wrote: »

The Swords Express is a disaster & i avoid it at all costs.

You try get a swords express at 5:30pm down the quays near the o2, unless you walk up to the laughter lounge you can expect the bus to drive by full at least twice.

How is it competition when it drops you to the pavilions also, leaving some people (me included) with a 30minute walk.

Since Dublin Bus can't go thru the tunnel coming back to swords, the Swords Express can charge an outlandish 4euro coming home. 4 euro!!!!!!!!!

It's a joke, if any of these consultants lived in the swords area and got the SE home for a month, they would see its hardly a competition.

They need to sort out that proposal for the SE to server applewood/swords manor - OR - allow the 41x to go back through the tunnel

In fairness the price charged by Swords Express is the price that makes the venture economically viable.

Dublin Bus fares are subvented by the state in respect of their public service obligation.

Look at www.urbus.ie who also charge a market rate for their service.

At the end of the day blame for this whole mess can be laid at the Department of Transport's door who frankly could not organise drinks in a brewery.

KC61

trad wrote: »

If the entire Dublin Bus fleet goes wheelchair accessable it will be at our expense. All Dublin Bus or for that matter Bus Eireann's fleet are funded from the public purse. Private operators have to fund their own vehicles from operating revenue.

Personally I think it's a good day for private operators who got up of their backsides and used their own money to set up bus routes and took on the state - and won.

It'll be interesting to see what happens when the Circle Line case come up.

It certainly will be - I am still looking forward to an explanation of how a company that expanded an excellent peak hour service to south Lucan and Celbridge to encompass an all day service to/from Celbridge (where there was already an established Dublin Bus route 67/67a) but implemented virtually zero marketing, no weekend services, no timetables at stops, and services that were very difficult to get any information about, was apparently fatally impacted by alleged extra peak hour buses in south Lucan operated by Dublin Bus.

There is far more to that case than has been discussed in the mainstream media, and that case will be very interesting indeed.

M.J.M.C

KC61 wrote: »

At the end of the day blame for this whole mess can be laid at the Department of Transport's door who frankly could not organise drinks in a brewery.

Agreed, as it stands at the moment the SE is overpriced and doesnt service many of the hugely populated areas of swords. So it flies through the tunnel but then you have a 30minute walk from the pavilions,
The Dublin Bus doesnt go back through the tunnel and takes forever to get home.

As someone said this is NOT about the customers, takes well over an hour to get home everyday (regardless of SE or DB) when it could take far less.

KC61

M.J.M.C wrote: »

Agreed, as it stands at the moment the SE is overpriced and doesnt service many of the hugely populated areas of swords. So it flies through the tunnel but then you have a 30minute walk from the pavilions,
The Dublin Bus doesnt go back through the tunnel and takes forever to get home.

As someone said this is NOT about the customers, takes well over an hour to get home everyday (regardless of SE or DB) when it could take far less.

You are still missing the basic point about Swords Express. They are a private commercial enterprise and as such have to charge the commercial price that they require to breakeven/make a profit. They are not subsidised and as such they are charging the appropriate fare to cover their costs and provide a profit margin, and will have to continue to do so in the future.

There is no point in complaining that their price is excessive as that is what they need to charge to remain in business.

Dublin Bus fares are set by the Department of Transport in such a way to reflect the fact that there is a state subvention in the form of a public service contract reflecting their obligation to operate a social service.

If you feel that Swords Express fares are excessive, no one is forcing you to use it! As I say they are a private operator, with no public service obligations.

M.J.M.C

KC61 wrote: »

If you feel that Swords Express fares are excessive, no one is forcing you to use it!.

:rolleyes:
"The Swords Express is a disaster & i avoid it at all costs."

My point is, as it stands neither service is ideal getting home for people living in swords manor/applewood/Glen Ellen areas

They need to sort this out

antoinolachtnai

Another alternative is to ask your TD to request that a fare scheme be put in place in the Swords Area. Fare Schemes are provided for under Section 58 of the Transport Act. This would allow for Swords Express fares to be in-sync with Dublin Bus fares.

PWEI

I think €4 from Swords to town is excellent value for a private run company.
Compare that to Aircoach which is also a private run company that charge €7 for a shorter journey to town. Even Airlink is €6 for the same journey and that is operated by Dublin Bus so it is also subsidised. Simple fact of the matter is if SE charged anything less than €4,they would not make enough money to keep the business afloat

KC61

PWEI wrote: »

I think €4 from Swords to town is excellent value for a private run company.
Compare that to Aircoach which is also a private run company that charge €7 for a shorter journey to town. Even Airlink is €6 for the same journey and that is operated by Dublin Bus so it is also subsidised. Simple fact of the matter is if SE charged anything less than €4,they would not make enough money to keep the business afloat

The Airlink is not subsidised - it is charged at a commercial rate also.

KC61

shoegirl wrote: »

The "X" was basically a simple express route when originally introduced in the early 90s. It always - like many cross city buses - suffered from having to cross considerable congestion in the centre of the city.

The frequency is certainly better - but in proportion to the actual growth level of Swords since the 1980s - I think it was approximately 17,000 in 1988 or so - its more than doubled in population but I certainly don't see double the level of buses - particularly not at peak times, where only one or two extra buses are added. Secondly, something I've particularly noticed is the dramatic decrease in bus use at peak hours - it used to be virtually impossible to get a bus between 07:45 and 8:15 - many were jammed before even the last stop on the Rathbeale Rd - in fact at one point they put a bus leaving from the main street to get around the capacity problem.

What HAS increased is the frequency to the Valley and parts of Swords other than Glassmore - Swords Manor.

The weekend and evening service has hardly changed much in about 20 years. Even the times of the last few buses are actually the same as they were in 1990.

I just thought I'd revert to this and actually present the statistics:

Overall the following are the numbers of Dublin Bus services linking Dublin city centre with Swords and v.v. in 1985 and 2010:

OUTBOUND - WEEKDAYS:
33 (Via Swords): 1985 - 23; 2010 - 29
33b (Via Swords): 1985 - 2; 2010 - 0
41 to Glassmore : 1985 - 37; 2010 - 55 (now to Swords Manor)
41b to Rolestown: 1985 - 5; 2010 -5
41c to River Valley: 1985 - 14; 2010 - 46 (all to Swords Manor)
41x to Swords: 1985 - 0; 2010 - 3
43 to Swords: 1985 - 9; 2010 - 30

Total: 1985 - 90; 2010 - 168

OUTBOUND - SATURDAYS:
33 (Via Swords): 1985 - 23; 2010 - 17
33b (Via Swords): 1985 - 2; 2010 - 0
41 to Glassmore: 1985 - 34; 2010 - 44 (now to Swords Manor)
41b to Rolestown: 1985 - 5; 2010 -6
41c to River Valley: 1985 - 15; 2010 - 43 (all to Swords Manor)
43 to Swords: 1985 - 9; 2010 - 25

Total: 1985 - 88; 2010 - 135

OUTBOUND - SUNDAYS:
33 (Via Swords): 1985 - 9; 2010 - 13
33b (Via Swords): 1985 - 13; 2010 - 0
41 to Glassmore: 1985 - 27; 2010 - 30 (now to Swords Manor)
41b to Rolestown: 1985 - 3; 2010 -3
41c to River Valley: 1985 - 10; 2010 - 30 (all to Swords Manor)
43 to Swords: 1985 - 8; 2010 - 14

Total: 1985 - 70; 2010 - 90

INBOUND - WEEKDAYS:
33 (Via Swords): 1985 - 25; 2010 - 29
33b (Via Swords): 1985 - 3; 2010 - 0
41 from Glassmore: 1985 - 36; 2010 - 59 (now from Swords Manor)
41b from Rolestown: 1985 - 5; 2010 -4
41c from River Valley: 1985 - 14; 2010 - 49 (40 from Swords Manor)
41x from Swords: 1985 - 0; 2010 - 6
43 from Swords: 1985 - 9; 2010 - 31
60 from Leas X (via Swords): 1985 - 2; 2010 - 0

Total: 1985 - 94; 2010 - 178

INBOUND - SATURDAYS:
33 (Via Swords): 1985 - 24; 2010 - 18
33b (Via Swords): 1985 - 2; 2010 - 0
41 from Glassmore: 1985 - 34; 2010 - 42 (now from Swords Manor)
41b from Rolestown: 1985 - 5; 2010 - 4
41c from River Valley: 1985 - 15; 2010 - 43 (all from Swords Manor)
43 from Swords: 1985 - 9; 2010 - 27
60 from Leas X (via Swords): 1985 - 2; 2010 - 0

Total: 1985 - 91; 2010 - 134

INBOUND - SUNDAYS:
33 (Via Swords): 1985 - 9; 2010 - 13
33b (Via Swords): 1985 - 12; 2010 - 0
41 from Glassmore: 1985 - 27; 2010 - 29 (now from Swords Manor)
41b from Rolestown: 1985 - 3; 2010 -2
41c from River Valley: 1985 - 10; 2010 - 30 (all from Swords Manor)
43 from Swords: 1985 - 8; 2010 - 13

Total: 1985 - 69; 2010 - 87

That is an 87%/89% increase in the total numbers of buses serving Swords outbound and inbound respectively from Dublin on weekdays, 53%/47% on Saturdays and 29%/26% on Sundays.

I'm not sure how you figure that the numbers of buses serving Swords Manor has not increased significantly?

Sizzler

As a previous poster has said Swords Express only serves the periphery of Swords and does not provide direct competition for the 41x service, so why Dublin Bus's route should suffer because of it smacks of stupidity from the authorities in making this judgement.

Clare_Culchie

Just six more years or so and it won't matter a toss when we get our shiny new Metro North (or will that be objected to as a breach of competition laws or whatever?). C'mon the Metro, now there's some joined-up thinking.

Beasty

Clare_Culchie wrote: »

Just six more years or so and it won't matter a toss when we get our shiny new Metro North (or will that be objected to as a breach of competition laws or whatever?). C'mon the Metro, now there's some joined-up thinking.

This is nothing to do with the discussion concerning current Dublin Bus/Swords Express services.

Please stay on topic

Thanks

Beasty