UPC DOCSIS 3.0 Fair Use

cros13

Hi all,

I'm considering moving into Dublin City this October. At the moment I have 50 Mbit FTTH from Magnet. Most of the apartments I'm looking at have UPC Cable available.
The thing is my average monthly data usage at home is ~500GB per month which Magnet has never had a problem with (I'm not subject to a fair use policy).
I have no problem paying a couple of hundred euro a month extra if a can be guaranteed that:
1. I won't be cut off
2. I pay a flat fee.

My only backup plan at the moment is recording an oral amendment to the contract when I sign up with UPC over the phone and suing for breach of contract if they cause trouble.

Can anyone with any experience of UPC offer any guidance?

Karmafaerie

You do know that if you're going to record the conversation you have to also record yourself advissing the customer service agent that you're recording it right, otherwise it means nothing.

Just like they have to advise you that they're recording, so do you.

MunsterCycling

Simple to do, just babble it at the very beginning of the call just like most CSRs do when saying their name, completely covers you.

Karmafaerie

MunsterCycling wrote: »

Simple to do, just babble it at the very beginning of the call just like most CSRs do when saying their name, completely covers you.

Nope.
They have to acknowledge it.

You have to say clearly that you're recording and if you want it to stand up in court you need them to verbally acknowledge that they are aware of this.

Stupid I know, but that's how it is.

And bear in mind that seeing as they record conversations also, they'll have the exact same call on record.

Call centers started recording all calls to cover themselves more so than to help the customer.

Sponge Bob

UPC will have a recording of you asking them "is it unlimited?" and them lying back to you saying "it is" . The contract depends on the recording.

shinzon

so let me get this straight, you want to throw a couple hundred euro extra to upc so they can bend the terms and Conditions so you can download what you like and be damned with everyone else, and if they dont do that youll sue them

thx for the laugh

Shin

Sponge Bob

Ahh he won't end up being able _sue_ them, he will just get out of the contract early with no penalties and go to Magnet

Karmafaerie

Sponge Bob wrote: »

UPC will have a recording of you asking them "is it unlimited?" and them lying back to you saying "it is" . The contract depends on the recording.

Yes, and they will also have his signature on the docking slip stating that he read the terms and conditions which state that the "Unlimited" limit is subject to an AUP.

Companies like UPC have lots of solicitors, and know how to cover themselves.
You're not gonna trick them into something by recording a phone conversation.


OP, as has been stated dozens of times here before - despite the way it's ignored by a lot of posters everytime - UPC have an "unlimited" package as if you're not in a congested area you'll never hear from them.
Loads of people have stated that they download and upload hundreds of gigs a month and have never heard from UPC, while other people do recieve letters when they reach the 250GB mark.

There is no invisible margin as some imply, unless your downloading effects others, as in utilization/congestion.


But as is the law on the internet, people only talk about it when it effects them.
So we end up with a lobsided view of things.

cros13

Karmafaerie wrote: »

Yes, and they will also have his signature on the docking slip stating that he read the terms and conditions which state that the "Unlimited" limit is subject to an AUP.

And I can also copy those terms and conditions, amend them as agreed and return by registered post. I am aware of the law in relation to this.

Karmafaerie wrote: »

Companies like UPC have lots of solicitors, and know how to cover themselves.
You're not gonna trick them into something by recording a phone conversation.

I didn't suggest "tricking" anyone. I'm aware of the law in regards to recording phone calls.

Karmafaerie wrote: »

OP, as has been stated dozens of times here before - despite the way it's ignored by a lot of posters everytime - UPC have an "unlimited" package as if you're not in a congested area you'll never hear from them.
Loads of people have stated that they download and upload hundreds of gigs a month and have never heard from UPC, while other people do recieve letters when they reach the 250GB mark.

There is no invisible margin as some imply, unless your downloading effects others, as in utilization/congestion.


But as is the law on the internet, people only talk about it when it effects them.
So we end up with a lobsided view of things.

I'm a network engineer. Even given my monthly usage with the contention ratios UPC mention (17:1) there should be no issue unless there is a bandwidth bottleneck further upstream.
Remember that given 30Mbps of bandwidth, 500GB is less than 5% of line capacity. I shouldn't even use my "share" of bandwidth on the local cable loop.
All I'm really doing is rsyncing my home server to work so I'm hardly using any of the more sparse upstream bandwidth.

Sponge Bob

Karmafaerie wrote: »

Yes, and they will also have his signature on the docking slip stating that he read the terms and conditions which state that the "Unlimited" limit is subject to an AUP.

Companies like UPC have lots of solicitors, and know how to cover themselves.
You're not gonna trick them into something by recording a phone conversation.

They record the conversation, you ask for a copy of it if there is a dispute. Not a judge in Ireland will find against you if you ask on that recording "is it unlimited" and the sales monkey says "yes", "are you positive" "yes".

UPC have an "unlimited" package as if you're not in a congested area you'll never hear from them.
Loads of people have stated that they download and upload hundreds of gigs a month and have never heard from UPC, while other people do recieve letters when they reach the 250GB mark.

That is a lottery not a package...but you are correct in saying that limits are enforced very arbitrarily according to the state of the network.

But always remember that if the recording shows the sales monkey wilfully misled the end user then the contract can easily be voided for misrepresentation .

Buying off ISPs is a matter for the unfair contracts directive of 1993

"Whereas the consumer must receive equal protection under contracts concluded by word of mouth and written contracts regardless, in the latter case, of whether the terms of the contract are contained in one or more documents"

and the Distance Selling Directive of 1997 too.

cros13

Sponge Bob wrote: »

That is a lottery not a package...but you are correct in saying that limits are enforced very arbitrarily according to the state of the network.

Sponge Bob hit the nail on the head here. My primary concern is the uncertainty over whether they cut me off or impose arbitrary bandwidth limitations.
I'm willing to do whatever is required to avoid that situation.

Cabaal

cros13 wrote: »

My only backup plan at the moment is recording an oral amendment to the contract when I sign up with UPC over the phone and suing for breach of contract if they cause trouble.

You'll be laughed at, UPC's written contract over rules anything an agent may say...at the end of the day the outcome of a dispute is them terminating the service. There's no law that says they MUST provide you with a service.

Both you and me know you won't sue for breach of contract so why kid yourself? The costs involved don't make it workable, again any attempts to try such a thing will simply result in UPC ending the agreement and rightly so.

cros13 wrote: »

<SNIP> My primary concern is the uncertainty over whether they cut me off or impose arbitrary bandwidth limitations.
I'm willing to do whatever is required to avoid that situation.

So don't break there T&C's then?
You say your a network engineer, so say you have a user policy for people connecting to a network you operate, a user breaks this and you have a policy of limiting their connection or whatever. Think its ok for the user to create their own policy?

Its UPC's network, if you don't like the terms of their network then use somebody else's...

dub45

Have you approached UPC about this?

dub45

Sponge Bob wrote: »

That is a lottery not a package...but you are correct in saying that limits are enforced very arbitrarily according to the state of the network.

Surely all customers should be treated equally? Does this now mean that in addtion to UPC being allowed to redefine the English language that the meaning of 'unlimited' also depends on where you are?:rolleyes:

Sponge Bob

Cabaal wrote: »

You'll be laughed at, UPC's written contract over rules anything an agent may say

It doesn't in law. The agent must be trained on the full T&Cs and the recording IS the contract.

This is also how people get out of supposedly long mobile contracts where they were offered a new modem for better speeds only to find it was a contract extension later. We have done the nuts and bolts in the midband forum Cabaal. Anyone who asks for "the recording" usually gets released straight away

The recording proves there is no contract or no recording ( cos they lost it) proves there is no contract. Either way there is no contract.

But when the agent is specifically asked if there are limits and they lie then the contract may be voided in the small claims court and very very quickly.

UPC won't even show up for the trial, they never do.

Sponge Bob

Just to clarify a bit.

If one is assured that a service has "no limits" or is "unlimited" at a set price by a sales monkey....and one then signs up for the service , one has entered into a distance contract where nothing is signed. A recording MUST be kept to prove the contract exists

If you get a wrong bill the following month you must follow the UPC complaints procedure ( it obliges them to sort the issue within 5 working days or something) and you must formally complain AND in writing .

This complaints procedure is detailed in full here . You may complain by email.

It would be possible to sign up to UPC today , get a wrong bill by early September and complain and exit the contract by end september. If they do take any money you will get it back in the small claims court.

T&C changes will apply AFTER you accept a change in the T&Cs of course. You know that if UPC materially change their T&Cs during the contract period you may then exit their contract if you do not accept them.

dub45

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Just to clarify a bit.

If one is assured that a service has "no limits" or is "unlimited" at a set price by a sales monkey....and one then signs up for the service , one has entered into a distance contract where nothing is signed. A recording MUST be kept to prove the contract exists

If you get a wrong bill the following month you must follow the UPC complaints procedure ( it obliges them to sort the issue within 5 working days or something) and you must formally complain AND in writing .

This complaints procedure is detailed in full here . You may complain by email.

It would be possible to sign up to UPC today , get a wrong bill by early September and complain and exit the contract by end september. If they do take any money you will get it back in the small claims court.

T&C changes will apply AFTER you accept a change in the T&Cs of course. You know that if UPC materially change their T&Cs during the contract period you may then exit their contract if you do not accept them.

It should be remembered that in UPC's view Terms and Conditions apply only to the customer and not to themselves. Note their flagrant breach of their own Terms and Condtions in relation to the notificiation to customers of their increase in prices last year. They consistently breach the terms of the direct debit scheme and they refuse to comply with Comreg's policy on unlimited products. So do not rely on their staff to either know their own Terms and Conditons or to acknowledge their repsonsibilites under those terms.

watty

And the actuall T&C there is a "FUP" and the "unlimited" is about 250Gbyte on UPC. Much better than Vodafone's 10Gbyte "unlimited" or Imagine's 30Gbyte "unlimited".

dub45

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Just to clarify a bit.

If one is assured that a service has "no limits" or is "unlimited" at a set price by a sales monkey....and one then signs up for the service , one has entered into a distance contract where nothing is signed. A recording MUST be kept to prove the contract exists

If you get a wrong bill the following month you must follow the UPC complaints procedure ( it obliges them to sort the issue within 5 working days or something) and you must formally complain AND in writing .

This complaints procedure is detailed in full here . You may complain by email.

It would be possible to sign up to UPC today , get a wrong bill by early September and complain and exit the contract by end september. If they do take any money you will get it back in the small claims court.

T&C changes will apply AFTER you accept a change in the T&Cs of course. You know that if UPC materially change their T&Cs during the contract period you may then exit their contract if you do not accept them.

As a matter of interest has anyone ever been notified of of a 'material' change to their Terms and Condtions by UPC? Again any terms and conditons listed on a website or given to a customer by any isp should bear the last date of amendment. Does it ever happen:rolleyes:

Sponge Bob

watty wrote: »

Much better than Vodafone's 10Gbyte "unlimited" or Imagine's 30Gbyte "unlimited".

Voda staff will not lie about the 10GB limit if asked but UPC staff will lie about their 250gb.. After that it hinges on the dictionary meaning .....innit

dub45

watty wrote: »

And the actuall T&C there is a "FUP" and the "unlimited" is about 250Gbyte on UPC. Much better than Vodafone's 10Gbyte "unlimited" or Imagine's 30Gbyte "unlimited".

"unlimited" and "about" are incompatible! and how can one "unlimited" be better than another? This sort of nonsense only condones lying on the part of companies.

If a company advertises an unlimited product and there is a restriction on it then they are lying pure and simple and one should be condoning this practise in any way.

An unlimited product with a fup of xxxx is a product wtih cap of xxxx its as simple as that.

hightower1

I suppose if anyone has a problem with an ISP that sells an "unlimited" product in their range and has a FUP on this can speak with their wallet and not sign up with that ISP although something tells me no one screaming rally cries of unfair practice here actually has the conviction to not sign with an ISP selling an unlimited pack.... seeing as thats all of them. :rolleyes:

Speak with your wallet if you have the stomach for it and do without broadband.

dub45

We should all have problems with companies that lie. Is integrity too much to ask for even for a UPC fanboy????:rolleyes:

hightower1

All I am saying is if you dont agree with an ISP selling an unlimited / FUP product then dont give them your custom.

If I dont like the prices or practices of a shop I certainly wont hand over my hard earned money.

watty

It should be illegal to use the word "Unlimited" or "No Limits" unless you can actually use the connection 24x7 all year at full speed without penalty.

There should be no "up to" except as fine print, the Speed quoted should be the minimum 75% of users will see (average could be misleading as on DSL there could be many on 1Mbps and > 10Mbps if all was ADSL2+). The "up to" should be peak time for users on avearge. Knowing you are "up to" 21Mbps if you have a perfect signal at 3am is pointless. Knowing you on average get 1Mbps at peak time is more realistic.

Blindpew2

They do have the "extreme" package that's not listed anywhere on their website. They only tell you about it when you go over the "unlimited" limit. They use it as a threat. Just tell them that you need the extreme package from day one and stop all the pussyfooting around.

54kroc

dub45 wrote: »

Have you approached UPC about this?

It might be worth getting on to their SME broadband support and telling them exactly what you require.

cros13

hightower1 wrote: »

All I am saying is if you dont agree with an ISP selling an unlimited / FUP product then dont give them your custom.

If I dont like the prices or practices of a shop I certainly wont hand over my hard earned money.

That makes perfect sense in a free market. Problem is that not reality.
In 99% of the country the only choices are ISPs with either capped packages or "unlimited". In 75% of the country the only choice is eircom (or eircom wholesale). I'm moving from one of the few areas where I had a choice to inside the M50 where there is no choice.

watty

hightower1 wrote: »

All I am saying is if you dont agree with an ISP selling an unlimited / FUP product then dont give them your custom.

If I dont like the prices or practices of a shop I certainly wont hand over my hard earned money.

But most people don't know how misleading the adverts are. That's why we have Consumer Association of Ireland, Advertising Standards Authority of Ireland and Comreg. Sadly they seem more inclined to make sure all vendors are doing the same (Level playing field to rip off customers) rather than any interest in protecting consumers.

Karmafaerie

dub45 wrote: »

Surely all customers should be treated equally? Does this now mean that in addtion to UPC being allowed to redefine the English language that the meaning of 'unlimited' also depends on where you are?:rolleyes:

Yeah, that's why I sued the travel agency when it rained during my medeteranian sun holiday a few years back!:rolleyes:

UPC aren't responsible for how many heavy users live in the one area.
What do you want them to do?
Ask customers to choose a house based on their internet usage?!

Karmafaerie

Sponge Bob wrote: »

They record the conversation, you ask for a copy of it if there is a dispute. Not a judge in Ireland will find against you if you ask on that recording "is it unlimited" and the sales monkey says "yes", "are you positive" "yes".

First off, stop with the "Sales Monkey" talk.
It makes you sound extremely pretentious and condescending to be honest.
The fact that you've said it about 5 times in this thread says a lot.
I don't like sales agents myself, but that doesn't mean I have free reign to be abussive towards every person who works in sales!

Secondly, no it won't stand up for anything.
UPC would have to release you from your contract at worst.
Plain and simple.

At worst you'd be paying thousands of euros for UPC to release you're contract and arrange further training for the agent in question.

Sponge Bob wrote:

That is a lottery not a package...but you are correct in saying that limits are enforced very arbitrarily according to the state of the network.

No it's not really.
UPC have no say over how much your neighbours download.
If you happen to live in an area full of heavy users, that's unfortunate, but not UPC's fault.

Sponge Bob wrote:

But always remember that if the recording shows the sales monkey wilfully misled the end user then the contract can easily be voided for misrepresentation .

Yes, exactly, it can be voided.
That's what we're saying.
It can not however be used to force UPC to supply you with a service that they don't offer.