Are you a Schumacher fan?

IM0

Poll

amacachi

Ficus wrote: »

These schumacher threads usually end up being absolute drivel and always descend into a slagging match and end up being inevitably closed.
I think this thread will be no different.

Tend to agree with you there alas.

I wouldn't say I'm a big fan, but I respect his abilities. The one thing that annoys me is how he's singled out for just about everything. The lads on BBC yesterday referred to him being DQed from the championship in 07 for crashing into Villeneuve as though it shows he's the hardest and most unfair guy ever in F1, yet Prost and Senna did far worse but it was acceptable to the FIA back then. Look at Suzuka ffs, a crash at near full speed yet it's fine, Schumacher crashed into Villeneuve at low speed but that is worse somehow.

ant043

No never

The man is a legend. Would love it if he rammed words from jordan and coulthard back down their throats next season even though i doubt it. He wouldn't have been the same driver without his win at all costs philosophy. Imo the greatest F1 driver of all time followed closed by Senna.

lord lucan

No never

amacachi wrote: »

Tend to agree with you there alas.

I wouldn't say I'm a big fan, but I respect his abilities. The one thing that annoys me is how he's singled out for just about everything. The lads on BBC yesterday referred to him being DQed from the championship in 07 for crashing into Villeneuve as though it shows he's the hardest and most unfair guy ever in F1, yet Prost and Senna did far worse but it was acceptable to the FIA back then. Look at Suzuka ffs, a crash at near full speed yet it's fine, Schumacher crashed into Villeneuve at low speed but that is worse somehow.

I agree 100% with you there. The BBC's constant comment on him is getting tiresome now.

I've always been a Schumacher fan. There's been plenty of times as a fan where i've shouted at the tv at some of his decisions,Jerez v Villeneuve,stalling at Rasscasse in Monaco etc. but when i think back to some of the races he won just on shear tenacity and an unwillingness to lose it brings a smile to my face. Barcelona in '96 in the rain,Brazil '06 to come from near the back to finish 4th,amazing drives that will stay with me for the rest of my life.

I've no doubt there'll be more controversy before he calls it a day again. Perversely many will miss his 'style',his win-at-all-costs attitude,look at what he's given us this season in terms of talking points.

Voodu Child

amacachi wrote: »

The lads on BBC yesterday referred to him being DQed from the championship in 07 for crashing into Villeneuve as though it shows he's the hardest and most unfair guy ever in F1, yet Prost and Senna did far worse but it was acceptable to the FIA back then. Look at Suzuka ffs, a crash at near full speed yet it's fine, Schumacher crashed into Villeneuve at low speed but that is worse somehow.

Martin Brundle was talking about Senna on Top Gear the other week, about how he would position his car in such a way that you would crash into him if you didn't back off:

"He would put you into a compromising position, and then leave you to make the decision, and if you didn't run into him, then psychologically you were buried, finished. He would then know that every time after that he showed you a wheel, you'd jump out of the way."

He said it very much with respect and admiration for Senna's uncompromising style. That's why I found his criticism of Schumacher hypocritical.

IM0

I was but not now after how he has driven THIS SEASON

Ficus wrote: »

These schumacher threads usually end up being absolute drivel and always descend into a slagging match and end up being inevitably closed.
I think this thread will be no different.

Its all about the POLL!......only?

BostonB

No never

me@ucd wrote: »

Poll

Why?

Theres no story here.

amacachi

Voodu Child wrote: »

Martin Brundle was talking about Senna on Top Gear the other week, about how he would position his car in such a way that you would crash into him if you didn't back off:

"He would put you into a compromising position, and then leave you to make the decision, and if you didn't run into him, then psychologically you were buried, finished. He would then know that every time after that he showed you a wheel, you'd jump out of the way."

He said it very much with respect and admiration for Senna's uncompromising style. That's why I found his criticism of Schumacher hypocritical.

Aye, that's what I was getting at.

GTE

No never

Voodu Child wrote: »

Martin Brundle was talking about Senna on Top Gear the other week, about how he would position his car in such a way that you would crash into him if you didn't back off:

"He would put you into a compromising position, and then leave you to make the decision, and if you didn't run into him, then psychologically you were buried, finished. He would then know that every time after that he showed you a wheel, you'd jump out of the way."

He said it very much with respect and admiration for Senna's uncompromising style. That's why I found his criticism of Schumacher hypocritical.

Having read that and looked at the video I really dont understand what the problem with the Schumacher move was BESIDES the fact it was the end of the pit lane that could have caused so much desrtuction.

Odd, its all odd.

Just saw a vid of Massa and Webber. Id say if wasnt Schumacher there wouldn't be such a frenzy over it.

Ghost Train

I was but not now after how he has driven THIS SEASON

Not a fan as such. In his early years with ferrari i wanted him to win races. Prefered him to alonso when they were both at the front. Can admire how well hes done but things like running into damon or villeauve and some other things make him less than the perfect driver the stats show

Dorsanty

Ghost Train wrote: »

Not a fan as such. In his early years with ferrari i wanted him to win races. Prefered him to alonso when they were both at the front. Can admire how well hes done but things like running into damon or villeauve and some other things make him less than the perfect driver the stats show

Well if you look back on the Damon incident you could say at least Schumacher was willing to try and race him at all. Senna on the other hand took out Prost on the first corner of the first lap. Job done! Champagne anyone?

Still I can see both sides for the most recent incident. I would have been more okay with it if it wasn't a concrete wall. Forcing someone onto the dirt is far easier to stomach. If Barrichello lost his front suspension in a crush he'd be nothing short of a missile heading straight at where ever the car points and really susceptible to rolling. I believe they said it was approx 180mph, so rolling at that speed isn't good for your health.

Of course in Senna's day cars had a terrible habit of becoming fireballs so him forcing possible crashes could be considered worse.

Lurching

No never

Yup, always thought he was a bit of a legend.

Max Power1

No never

ant043 wrote: »

The man is a legend. Would love it if he rammed words from jordan and coulthard back down their throats next season even though i doubt it. He wouldn't have been the same driver without his win at all costs philosophy. Imo the greatest F1 driver of all time followed closed by Senna.

^
This imo.

Possibly the greatest driver of this generation.

lee_baby_simms

No never

bbk wrote: »

Just saw a vid of Massa and Webber. Id say if wasnt Schumacher there wouldn't be such a frenzy over it.

Well thats exactly it. So many people have an axe to grind when it comes to Schumacher not least the brits. My feeling is that what we saw yesterday was REAL RACING. Ok it was deemed illegal and I accept that but, to be completely honest, I like my F1 to be a bit dangerous, unpredictable, controversial and thats exactly whats Schumacher has always brought for better or for worse.

I'd dearly love to see Schumacher score a podium and rub it in Couthards breezeblock shaped face.

I'll always be a fan btw.

Ghost Train

I was but not now after how he has driven THIS SEASON

Dorsanty wrote: »

Well if you look back on the Damon incident you could say at least Schumacher was willing to try and race him at all. Senna on the other hand took out Prost on the first corner of the first lap. Job done! Champagne anyone?

Still I can see both sides for the most recent incident. I would have been more okay with it if it wasn't a concrete wall. Forcing someone onto the dirt is far easier to stomach. If Barrichello lost his front suspension in a crush he'd be nothing short of a missile heading straight at where ever the car points and really susceptible to rolling. I believe they said it was approx 180mph, so rolling at that speed isn't good for your health.

Of course in Senna's day cars had a terrible habit of becoming fireballs so him forcing possible crashes could be considered worse.

Was more a racing incident with senna, stuck the car up the inside. At least the other car can avoid it. Driving sideways into somebody along side of you is worse

metzengerstein

No never

the man is a legend indeed ,its a compedative sport and the drivers should be allowed to compete and defend their positions ,probably the only real racer on track now ,when they get that car sorted no doubt hel be kicking some ass,

as for barichello he is one of the biggest whingers in f1, he says hes sick of being the no2 driver ,well thats because your not good enough to be

dor83

I was but not now after how he has driven THIS SEASON

I was a huge fan of his before he retired but I was a Ferrari fan first and they come before any driver for me. I have huge respect for what he has done in the past and in my opinion he is the best driver I have ever seen, including Prost and Senna, but I also think he made a mistake coming back because I think he has lost a little and that has allowed others to catch him.

BostonB

No never

I think people forget how long it took to get results at Ferrari when he joined them. In F1 even the best driver in the world needs the best car and team around him.

BoardsRanger

No never

I love Schumacher’s desire to win. I realise alot of people will disagree with me here but I absolutely love it when a driver is willing to do anything to win.

Senna on Prost, Michael on Hill – this mentality of “Im better than you and even though I’m on the back foot today, there is no way I will let you beat me”

I also think Formula 1 has become too much of a “nanny state” in recent years with penalties being handed out too willy nilly. Just let them race- thats what Id like to see.

Finally, people always seem to be quick to knock Barrichello . We should not forget, he came very close to winning a championship against a much younger team mate last year and he is pushing on 40. He always has time for his fans and from meeting him some years ago, I can tell you he is a genuinely nice guy.

lee_baby_simms

No never

BoardsRanger wrote: »

Finally, people always seem to be quick to knock Barrichello . We should not forget, he came very close to winning a championship against a much younger team mate last year and he is pushing on 40. He always has time for his fans and from meeting him some years ago, I can tell you he is a genuinely nice guy.

Hes always reminded me of Kelsey Grammer.

vincenzolorenzo

No never

Voodu Child wrote: »

Martin Brundle was talking about Senna on Top Gear the other week, about how he would position his car in such a way that you would crash into him if you didn't back off:

"He would put you into a compromising position, and then leave you to make the decision, and if you didn't run into him, then psychologically you were buried, finished. He would then know that every time after that he showed you a wheel, you'd jump out of the way."

He said it very much with respect and admiration for Senna's uncompromising style. That's why I found his criticism of Schumacher hypocritical.

Yep, thats something that really annoys me too. And its not just Brundle. Everyone talks about how great senna was but tend to either ignore his absolute ruthlessness (IMO dangerous driving) or else make it sound like its a good thing. Don't get me wrong, schu was wrong yesterday and has been in the wrong plenty of times in the past but there is an awful lot of hypocrisy around too

vincenzolorenzo

No never

Ghost Train wrote: »

Was more a racing incident with senna, stuck the car up the inside. At least the other car can avoid it. Driving sideways into somebody along side of you is worse

Well now thats just not true at all. Senna didn't even try and take the corner. he just drove straight into Prost. He even admitted to taking him out

De Hipster

No never

Voodu Child wrote: »

Martin Brundle was talking about Senna on Top Gear the other week, about how he would position his car in such a way that you would crash into him if you didn't back off:

"He would put you into a compromising position, and then leave you to make the decision, and if you didn't run into him, then psychologically you were buried, finished. He would then know that every time after that he showed you a wheel, you'd jump out of the way."

He said it very much with respect and admiration for Senna's uncompromising style. That's why I found his criticism of Schumacher hypocritical.

It's this attitude that bothers me, I was a huge Senna fan, loved his driving style, sometimes questioned the level of his aggression but had enormous respect for his raw focus and never waning commitment.

...same for Schumi, but it seems that only the dead are perfect & beyond reproach. The British commentators, teams & drivers seem to have a particular issue with German drivers, the dressing down of Schumacher and his talent (by the likes of Stewart, Moss, Coultard, BBC crew and others neatly tucked under the Union Jack) is now spilling over, in some situations, to Vettel (where Schumi is too far off the pace perhaps?) whereas if Hamilton shows similar traits he is lauded & applauded and compared to the late, great master Senna.

It’s getting tiresome.

De Hipster

No never

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Great rant/post, remember if your dead people are very reluctant to say anything bad about you.

Can you tell that this has been grinding at me for some time?!

Frank Bullitt

No never

Will always be a fan of the great man, granted the move was rough but he still is one of my favorites.

Again though, people call Schumacher dangerous, but i still maintain that if Senna did that then "he races with passion" etc.

vectra

Never was as most on here already know but Am a fan of his now and am really looking forward to next season.

vincenzolorenzo

No never

As a matter of interest vectra what caused you to change your mind about Schu?

vectra

vincenzolorenzo wrote: »

As a matter of interest vectra what caused you to change your mind about Schu?

Well, To be honest I don't like Ferrari, Never did and never will,They are a bunch of cheats. During the peak years when Schumacher was with them I always said and argued the point to others that only for the Car and teammates Schumacher would never have won 7 wdc's. Now he is with a regular team he has to drive for any points he gets. Maybe that could change again,who knows. But for now I am enjoying his racing, As I am Hamilton. Never liked him either but he has mellowed now and has become quite bearable

opinion guy

Voodu Child wrote: »

Martin Brundle was talking about Senna on Top Gear the other week, about how he would position his car in such a way that you would crash into him if you didn't back off:

"He would put you into a compromising position, and then leave you to make the decision, and if you didn't run into him, then psychologically you were buried, finished. He would then know that every time after that he showed you a wheel, you'd jump out of the way."

He said it very much with respect and admiration for Senna's uncompromising style. That's why I found his criticism of Schumacher hypocritical.

Completely agree.


Ok OP there is no option in your poll for "I was not a fan of Schumacher but have become one now". Actually it would be an exaggeration as i'm hardly a fan, and I thought his manouver in that race was disgracefully dangerous, but I think his story this season is interesting.

I'm one of those who used to watch F1 in the 90's before the rise of Schumacher. Frankly I think he killed the sport for a long time by being so good. It became boring and monotanous during his reign and I stopped watching.

Now I find Schumacher makes things more interesting. Former chamion returned to the game. Older, dodgy neck, **** car, but still full of the same drive, hunger to win, prone to the odd lunatic move. Now thats interesting to watch.


So I wouldn't say I ahve become a fan, but I do appreciate the added interest his return to the sport has created

Donne

I was but not now after how he has driven THIS SEASON

Considering the 1990 Suzuka incident, Senna got pole but the biased idiot Jean Marie Ballestre put him on the dirty side of the track against Prost.

Brundle said in the 'red button' last post-race interview that Schumi's move was not comparable and was worse since Senna in advance had communicated his intention to hold his line into the first corner.

Would Schumacher be that honest? After the race he had the gall to blame Barichello!

I can remember great drives from Schumacher, especially in the rain in Spain '06 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X83Sm6YXbAU&NR=1.
But his bully tactics always spoiled for me what is/was a great talent.

vincenzolorenzo

No never

Donne wrote: »

Brundle said in the 'red button' last post-race interview that Schumi's move was not comparable and was worse since Senna in advance had communicated his intention to hold his line into the first corner.

Thats the usual rubbish from Brundle. Telling someone you're going to take them out doesn't automatically make it ok. Like insulting someone and then saying no offence afterwards!

Donne

I was but not now after how he has driven THIS SEASON

vincenzolorenzo wrote: »

Thats the usual rubbish from Brundle. Telling someone you're going to take them out doesn't automatically make it ok. Like insulting someone and then saying no offence afterwards!

He didn't say Schumacher’s move was okay.

He said that while both were wrong, at least Senna had the honesty to give his intentions in advance, therefore giving full warning to Prost.

Schumacher has just ploughed into drivers like Hill in Adelaide '94 and Villeneuve '97 (for which he was stripped of all points for that year) on the spur of the moment, or like the last incident in Hungary almost crushing Barrichello into the concrete pit wall.


That’s what I think is the shame about Shumi. One of the greatest drivers ever, but one of the dirtiest!

vincenzolorenzo

No never

Donne wrote: »

He said that while both were wrong, at least Senna had the honesty to give his intentions in advance, therefore giving full warning to Prost.

Now I just don't buy that argument. He could have warned Prost as many times as he liked, it was still a completely unacceptable thing to do on a racetrack. But because he was such a great (but very flawed IMO) driver and now deceased the great and good of F1 look on him like he was some kind of saint and look back on various incidents in his career with rose tinted glasses and hammer drivers for hard moves they might make nowadays.

Oh and i better just add that while I am a schumacher fan i still believe his move on Barrichello was too hard. I also am a great admirer of the fantastic talent that Senna had. Its just the way they get treated completely differently for very similar incidents that gets meconfused:

Donne

I was but not now after how he has driven THIS SEASON

vincenzolorenzo wrote: »

Now I just don't buy that argument. He could have warned Prost as many times as he liked, it was still a completely unacceptable thing to do on a racetrack. But because he was such a great (but very flawed IMO) driver and now deceased the great and good of F1 look on him like he was some kind of saint and look back on various incidents in his career with rose tinted glasses and hammer drivers for hard moves they might make nowadays.

Oh and i better just add that while I am a schumacher fan i still believe his move on Barrichello was too hard. I also am a great admirer of the fantastic talent that Senna had. Its just the way they get treated completely differently for very similar incidents that gets meconfused:

Okay I accept Senna gets the 'Rose Tinted' glasses treatment due to Imola '94, and I also accept he was a hard driver and that Suzuka '90 was unacceptable.

But let's look at Senna's career. He raced with all of his team mates without team orders including Prost '88 (his greatest rival) and won. Apart from the previous mentioned incident he never took a driver off the track, indeed he was taken out by Prost at Suzuka '89.

Schumacher however apart from his dangerous driving, relegated all of his team mates to a firm 2nd spot. Refusing to share test data. Remember Austria '02 when he effectively ordered Barichello who was first, to be allowed overtaken by him under “team orders”. As a result of this the FIA declared new rules against "team orders" artificially affecting race results.

The above reasons add to why I think Schumacher has a deeply flawed character, much more than Senna.

I really wish the latter had lived and we could have seen the battle between them.

opinion guy

Donne wrote: »

I really wish the latter had lived and we could have seen the battle between them.

I think that would have been predictable enough - they would have killed each other!

DOC09UNAM

Forgive my ignorance, but WHICH one, important thing that should be included in the poll tbh.

Ralf, yes.
Michael, no.

vgv

I was but not now after how he has driven THIS SEASON

I was a big fan of Schumacher when I started watching F1 in the late 90s.Back then he was considered something of an underdog as the Ferraris he drove were considered not quite at the level of the Williams and McLarens and I liked the way he brought the fight to them and made those championships competitive.But after he started absolutely dominating in the early to mid 2000s I kind of cooled towards him.Its just the way he was winning most of these titles by large margins in the superior car without any consistent challengers and the way his teammates were used as his pawns(Austria2002)that put me off.Would he have 7 titles if he raced in the era of Senna,Prost and Mansell?I doubt it.I dont blame him for trying to stack the odds in his favour to try and win but I think hes somewhat overrated by virtue of having 7 world titles,some of which came very easily.Still a great driver dont get me wrong but GOAT,I dont know.

Tea 1000

In fairness, when he was dominating in a dominant car, he was the one who worked hard with the engineers to make that car dominant. I'm sure if Irvine for example had to bother staying back on track with Schumacher and working with him just as hard, he'd also have gained the respect from his team and team mate and got the inside track and worked out what set up suited him best.
But no, he'd much sooner party and then criticise Schu in interviews. Irvine was number 2 because he wasn't good enough for number 1.
No driver or team ever was or will be 100% fantastic, there's always a flaw or two! Highlighting those flaws won't make Schu or Senna or anyone else less great.

vincenzolorenzo

No never

F1 did indeed get very boring and one sided in the early 00s but that was down to Schu and Ferrari being so good and hence they can't really be blamed for that. Every team strives to be the best and unless there's a decent opposition, one team or another are going to dominate. its happening right now with kilkenny in the hurling. I'd rather admire them for their achievements rather than complain because its boring

Oblomov

I was but not now [nothing to do with this season]

But no, he'd much sooner party and then criticise Schu in interviews. Irvine was number 2 because he wasn't good enough for number 1.

I was under the disctinct impression that Schumachere's contract clearly stated that he was number one and his team mate would acquiesce as and when necessary.

Irvine knew that he would not be allowed to 'race' against Schumacher. Look at the Fiorano test circuit test times posted by Irvine and Schumacher.

TGB was often playing catch up to Irvine's times.... Much to Eddie's delight.

The reason Irvine stayed so long was because he was the ideal team mate, pay Eddie the money and he would comply with instruction. And, he enjoyed himself. The controlling factor, his sister, who made Edmund, as she called him, a very rich man.

The overall question about Schumacher and his adoring fans, what action would have been deemed a 'step too far' because Schumacher was allowed a greater freedom than possibly imaginable today?

thegoth

No never

Donne wrote: »

Schumacher however apart from his dangerous driving, relegated all of his team mates to a firm 2nd spot. Refusing to share test data. Remember Austria '02 when he effectively ordered Barichello who was first, to be allowed overtaken by him under “team orders”. As a result of this the FIA declared new rules against "team orders" artificially affecting race results.

1) I'm pretty sure Schumacher did share his test data although I'm not certain. Can you provide a link ?

2) Austria 2002 was not Schumachers call. It was made my the team principle, Jeam Todt, see here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yHPQSOziDw . Team orders are the way Ferrari work. They still use them in 2010 without Schumacher anywhere near the team. Remember Massa handing the lead to Alonso a few weeks ago ?

G-Money

I had a new admiration for Schumacher this year. Trying to make a comeback, it not going so well, the car not being great, people questioning him. I felt a bit bad for him and I was hoping he'd do well.

Then he managed to destroy most of the good will I had towards him with that move he made on Barrichello in Hungary.

Joe Luis

I was but not now after how he has driven THIS SEASON

I used to be a big schumacher fan but not any more that move on rubins was one of the worst I've seen he went too far there he could have killed him. Time to retire if you ask me

johnnysmack

No never

Poor michael is having a rough time from the PC brigade. If it had been any other driver who did that move on ruebens nothing would be said as was shown in an earlier post showing webber doing the EXACT same thing to massa couple years back and i dont remember a thing said about that at the time.

Schumacher is being punished for being Schumacher.

Oblomov

I was but not now [nothing to do with this season]

Schumacher is being punished for being Schumacher.[

Your absolutely right, given his history of punting people off, rules infringement and blatant disregard for safety and other drivers.

Then, from a behavioural point of view, the arrogance in believing he could get away with it.

If it's PC to consider a driver's safety is paramount and not at the whim of another driver, then values have slipped, badly

Reference to an earlier incident with another driver, the history of the driver concerned was not comparable with the disregard shown by Schumacher.

opinion guy

LIGHTNING wrote: »

He has been doing similar things his entire career nothing new at all.

True. If anything this move marked a return to form...