Dagnerous Dogs off the leash w/o muzzle

d'Oracle

Tranceypoo wrote: »

The law says you have to have 'control of your dog' it does not state you have to have your dog on a lead so in theory he is not breaking the law. The dog warden, if you manage to get hold of him, could do nothing,

Good point here.
Its seems like people automatically assume that a dog is not going to respond to its owner.

Tranceypoo wrote: »

however under some ridiculous 'restricted breed' or 'dangerous dogs' act certain breeds have to be muzzled in public and on a lead, however, this dog may not necessarily be a full pedigree but just have the look of one, if you look closely at my dog he has the face of a Staffy but is a mutt, yet my ignorant cousin still calls him a pitbull.
Please educate yourself about dogs and breeds, pitbulls are not agressive dogs, )

It is not ridiculous.
It is very sensible indeed.
Any dog can be aggressive if treated badly/incorrectly. Even very placid breeds can be prone to outbursts of aggression in the wrong conditions.

The importance of this legislation is that the breeds described are capable of doing a lot of damage due to physical characteristics and breed instincts. Unfortunately the necessity of ensuring the bad or stressed examples of these breeds cannot bite, means that perfectly well behaved dogs will also have to mask up.

Two Boys

I am always on my guard for Dogs when I go for a walk in teh evening with my 2 sons, they have been chased on their bikes, by dogs once or twice. The owners always just make feeble apologies, if I hear teh words "he won't do any harm" etc once more.

As for the issue of Owners not cleaning up after their dogs...it's gone beyond a joke. I offered a dog owner a nappy bag once, when she allowed her dog to do his biz right in front of us, and was walking away, she didn't take teh bag and just told me to F off, charming.

cyrusdvirus

Did anyone mention anything about fouling? A responsible dog owner will always clean up after their dog, simple as.

What type dogs have chased your sons?

Tranceypoo

d'Oracle wrote: »

Good point here.
Its seems like people automatically assume that a dog is not going to respond to its owner.



It is not ridiculous.
It is very sensible indeed.
Any dog can be aggressive if treated badly/incorrectly. Even very placid breeds can be prone to outbursts of aggression in the wrong conditions.

The importance of this legislation is that the breeds described are capable of doing a lot of damage due to physical characteristics and breed instincts. Unfortunately the necessity of ensuring the bad or stressed examples of these breeds cannot bite, means that perfectly well behaved dogs will also have to mask up.

It is ridiculous. The breeds on the list have been picked for no other apparent reason than scaremongering, certain groups of society have given certain breeds a reputation that they do not deserve, these people who own pits/rotties etc and chain them up in the back garden, don't socialise them/train them/feed them properly, are not responsible dog owners, if anyone in authority had bothered to do any research into these breeds they would see that most of them are working/herding dogs and make excellent family pets - any dog will fight another dog if you torture it, beat it, starve it for long enough, any dog can be vicious in the wrong hands and equally any dog can be an excellent family pet in the right hands. The argument being well these are all strong breeds and can do more damage than the smaller dogs, well then why isn't every breed that's over a certain weight/height on this list? Why aren't labs on it? Why aren't Dalmations on it? Gundogs? All equally 'strong' breeds but with better/cuter PR (in the case of labs and dalmations particularly), the media love a report on a pitbull or rottie attacking a family member 'unprovoked' but if the JRT or the lab attacks then it's not news.
I suggest you look on the Animals and Pet Issues board and read the story of Bruce, the dog who, because he looked like pitbull was dragged from his family and kept in dreadful conditions by the 'authorities' and after a 3 year campaign has finally been released to the care of EGAR in the Republic, there is another story of Lennox, same situation, he looked like a pitbull and is still kept locked up away from his family by the authorities, the daughter of the family is 11 years old and disabled and the dog is her total pet and she is distraught. Attitudes like yours perpertuate this crazy myth that any dog that looks remotely like a pitbull is going to savage you to death. Please educate yourself before you support laws like the dangerous dogs act/restricted breeds act.

Two Boys

There's a chololate brown coloured labradore lives in C'land wood, quite old (and dopey) always comes up to their bikes. The same dog jumped up on me when I was heavily pregnant, and also jumped on the pram when my son was only a few weeks old...we have quite a history. I have said it to teh owner, she could not care less. The dog is simply left to roam free day and night.
My son was chased by another dog, don't know teh breed, floppy ears, curly hair. He is 4 and flies along on teh bike, so I let him go ahead as long as I can see him, he was quite far off when this dog came out of teh trees and started after him. Not much fun for me, pushing his brother on his tricycle and trying to catch up with them so I can shoo the dog off.
I am quite scared of dogs having never owned one myself, so am very nervous around them.

Two Boys

Sorry but I think Dogs should be kept on leads when in public places, one child being chased by a dog and left feeling scared is too many....

Tranceypoo

Two Boys wrote: »

There's a chololate brown coloured labradore lives in C'land wood, quite old (and dopey) always comes up to their bikes. The same dog jumped up on me when I was heavily pregnant, and also jumped on the pram when my son was only a few weeks old...we have quite a history. I have said it to teh owner, she could not care less. The dog is simply left to roam free day and night.
My son was chased by another dog, don't know teh breed, floppy ears, curly hair. He is 4 and flies along on teh bike, so I let him go ahead as long as I can see him, he was quite far off when this dog came out of teh trees and started after him. Not much fun for me, pushing his brother on his tricycle and trying to catch up with them so I can shoo the dog off.
I am quite scared of dogs having never owned one myself, so am very nervous around them.

You should report that woman to the dog warden and/or the guards, she is a very irresponsible dog owner, God forbid her dog could have hurt you when you were pregnant or harmed your child in the pram, I wonder if she'd have cared less then!

Two Boys

I did ring teh Guards, they said there was nothing tehy could do, she wasn't breaking the law!

cyrusdvirus

Two Boys wrote: »

There's a chololate brown coloured labradore lives in C'land wood, quite old (and dopey) always comes up to their bikes. The same dog jumped up on me when I was heavily pregnant, and also jumped on the pram when my son was only a few weeks old...we have quite a history. I have said it to teh owner, she could not care less. The dog is simply left to roam free day and night.
My son was chased by another dog, don't know teh breed, floppy ears, curly hair. He is 4 and flies along on teh bike, so I let him go ahead as long as I can see him, he was quite far off when this dog came out of teh trees and started after him. Not much fun for me, pushing his brother on his tricycle and trying to catch up with them so I can shoo the dog off.
I am quite scared of dogs having never owned one myself, so am very nervous around them.

Not meaning to make light of the situation, but THAT is an irresponsible owner.
As Trancey said, report her to the warden, maybe someone who will care properly for the dog will get to look after him.

LMC

Slightly off topic but I was at home a while back and heard a noise upstairs and to my horror there was a Cat roaming around, hissing like a mad thing at me, nails out the works, he'd got in the bedroom window, now what if there was a baby up there...It took a while to get it out, (Im afraid of Cats, when I did, it did her business in my garden. My dog wasnt there at the time. A cat can do damage to small people too...anyhow I said to its owner and her attitude was its only a cat, she gets confused about which house she lives in, laughed and said she's always doing it!!!! Now what would have happened if my dog and wondered into her house........................:eek:

Ive encountered that brown dog, he's like a small bear he doesnt know his own strenght, v friendly unfortunately too friendly but he can look frightening, he's jumped at me a few times but Im not afraid of dogs and when I see him coming now I just shout at him, he wanders off, any time ive seen him lately his been on his lead, so I presume someone complained. I say it was v frightening for you.

TIP: If a dog is coming near you, just shout at it, using one word, like stop, firm and sharp, hold your ground, generally works, I have 3 dogs that wander around near me and usually scare the life outta my dog, good ole Ben (The famous door opening dog) included!!!

cotton

Tranceypoo is right unfortunately. The breeds on the list have been picked for no other apparent reason than scaremongering thanks to certain groups of society. The fact that size & weight is constantly bandied about as a reason is ridiculous - staffies are quite small & there are dogs much bigger & heavier than the ones the list. If a St Bernard, Dane or Wolfhound wanted to do damage, you'd be in a lot more trouble....
Statistically I think cocker spaniels are the worst biters, labs don't fare much better.

I'm the owner of 4 dogs, 3 of which are "restricted breeds" 4th one (the grumpiest) is a labrador/retriever. People have no problem walking up to him with their kids saying "look at the pretty doggie" but would cross the road if they saw any of the others coming. One in particular, people will actively get out of the way rather than pass us. This monster adores our nieces & nephews & vice versa, will do everything they ask & is generally an angel. It's very funny to watch a 2 year old girl shouting commands & the dog bigger than her sitting, giving paw, rolling over! Also very funny to watch the cats wrestling their toys off him.

Anyway, none of this is the reason I came on to post. Even though I own dogs, I agree totally with what people are saying here.
Owners should have effectual control over their dogs or have them on a lead. That's the law. Mine are never off lead, & they'd never get a chance to roam as they are never, ever out of the house/garden without us. It's nothing got to do with breed, it's simply responsible ownership. Apart from anything else, I'd be terrified they'd be knocked down or come to harm. Do other people not care what their pets are doing or what might happen to them?
I'm sick to the back teeth of other dogs off lead or roaming coming up to me & my dogs & starting havoc. It's getting to the stage I drive them to Newtown for their walks as Greystones is a joke. Only a few weeks ago I was on the beach with one of them (on the lead) & a lab came up & started to attack him. I was frantically trying to get him off mine when the owner strolled PAST. I yelled at her that she had no control over her dog & what if that was a child? She told me it was my own fault as she was on the beach first?????? Dog then ran off, straight through a toddler, knocking it down.
It's that sort of attitude that sickens me.
Nobody should have to put up with loose dogs, dog owners, parents, joggers, anyone. I guarantee those loose dogs aren't that happy either, their owners obviously don't care about them.




And nobody should have to step in dog poo either! That is another bearbug of mine. I don't walk around with bags of poo for miles so that others can leave their dog crap for my shoe.

kramxw

For the OP, from www.citzensinformations.ie

The Control of Dogs Regulations 1998 (S.I. No. 442 of 1998) impose additional rules in relation to the following breeds (and strains/cross-breeds) of dog in Ireland:

* American Pit Bull Terrier
* English Bull Terrier
* Staffordshire Bull Terrier
* Bull Mastiff
* Dobermann Pinscher
* German Shepherd (Alsatian)
* Rhodesian Ridgeback
* Rottweiler
* Japanese Akita
* Japanese Tosa
* Bandog

The rules state that:

* These dogs (or strains and crosses of them) must be kept on a short strong lead by a person over 16 years who is capable of controlling them
* These dogs (or strains and crosses of them) must be muzzled whenever they are in a public place
* These dogs (or strains and crosses of them) must wear a collar bearing the name and address of their owner at all times.

So if its a Staffordshire or Pit Bull Terrier (strain or cross), irrespective of how good or bad the owner, the dog should be on a short leash, muzzled and owners details on the dog's collar.

d'Oracle

Tranceypoo wrote: »

Please educate yourself before you support laws like the dangerous dogs act/restricted breeds act.

This is off topic really.

I think you need to kop on a bit here.
You assume because of your totally biased ideas that I am not "educated"?

Seems to me I know more than you about the issue at hand. You are going off on one about bull terriers. There is more to it than temperament, but you are so glued in your opinion that you are not even attempting to look for the logic behind these laws.

Quoting sob stories about the treatment of the dogs after removal is irrelevant. Its like saying the laws are invalid because of the state of the prisons.

loyatemu

keep it civil please or I'll lock this thread.

the law seems pretty clear, if its a bull terrier, it should be on a lead and muzzled; never mind the dog warden - if the law is being broken you should be calling the guards.

If you want to dispute the justness of Dangerous Dogs Act , go and do it in the Pets or Legal forums.

DancingGrape

There is some good arguments here but a lot of bad ones!

I work with dogs on a daily basis. And own three.

If you know that your dog can be even slightly unpidictable or prone to biting, jumping up, becoming over excited, growling or any such thing, you should 100% make it your responsibility to have your dog an a short, strong lead and a muzzle if needed (regardless of its breed).

If you know your dog inside out (as i do) and know for sure that he/she will most definatley not do any of the above, there should be no problem with having a dog off the lead, especially in open green spaces.

My three boys have NEVER once bitten, growled, jumped up on etc any one or anything because they have been raised well and i know exactly what they are like so I have no problem with them interacting with children etc.

Another thing is, there is a lot of talk about particular breeds being, and i quote "All agressive dogs". What a load of crap!
There is a little angelic looking westie next door to me who would take the hand off you in a second but a mean looking pitbull down the road who is one of the happiest, most well behaved dog ive ever seen!
There is no bad dogs, just bad owners.

thebullkf

Tranceypoo wrote: »

Would you be concerned if a Lab or a JRT or any other dog were running around without a lead on? Because Labs have a higher percentage of so called 'unprovoked attacks' than any of the pit bull breeds.

source??

ciaran67

thebullkf wrote: »

source??

Many have drowned in their saliva

Two Boys

DancingGrape wrote: »

There is some good arguments here but a lot of bad ones!

I work with dogs on a daily basis. And own three.

If you know that your dog can be even slightly unpidictable or prone to biting, jumping up, becoming over excited, growling or any such thing, you should 100% make it your responsibility to have your dog an a short, strong lead and a muzzle if needed (regardless of its breed).

If you know your dog inside out (as i do) and know for sure that he/she will most definatley not do any of the above, there should be no problem with having a dog off the lead, especially in open green spaces.

My three boys have NEVER once bitten, growled, jumped up on etc any one or anything because they have been raised well and i know exactly what they are like so I have no problem with them interacting with children etc.

Another thing is, there is a lot of talk about particular breeds being, and i quote "All agressive dogs". What a load of crap!
There is a little angelic looking westie next door to me who would take the hand off you in a second but a mean looking pitbull down the road who is one of the happiest, most well behaved dog ive ever seen!
There is no bad dogs, just bad owners.

That's all fine, but how do I know when I see you with your 3 dogs running round the green that you are a responsible owner, and that your dogs are well behaved?
When we come across owners and dogs playing we don't know what to expect? It's a relief if they are well behaved dogs with responsible owners, but my son was chased by a loose dog and teh owner was not around?


It concerns me that you call them boys? they are dogs?

Phsyche

thebullkf wrote: »

source??

http://www.ucd.ie/news/0710_october/081007_dog_bite.html

d'Oracle

DancingGrape wrote: »

There is some good arguments here but a lot of bad ones!

I work with dogs on a daily basis. And own three.

If you know that your dog can be even slightly unpidictable or prone to biting, jumping up, becoming over excited, growling or any such thing, you should 100% make it your responsibility to have your dog an a short, strong lead and a muzzle if needed (regardless of its breed).

If you know your dog inside out (as i do) and know for sure that he/she will most definatley not do any of the above, there should be no problem with having a dog off the lead, especially in open green spaces.

My three boys have NEVER once bitten, growled, jumped up on etc any one or anything because they have been raised well and i know exactly what they are like so I have no problem with them interacting with children etc.

Another thing is, there is a lot of talk about particular breeds being, and i quote "All agressive dogs". What a load of crap!
There is a little angelic looking westie next door to me who would take the hand off you in a second but a mean looking pitbull down the road who is one of the happiest, most well behaved dog ive ever seen!
There is no bad dogs, just bad owners.

While that is a great post, that last bit.....I HATE that phrase.

If someone is raised by bad parents and end up being a horrible criminal scumbag do we say "he isn't bad its just his parents"? No.

Bad owners (or indeed not having an owner) lead to bad behaviour in dogs, this is indisputable. But if a dog is a danger to people, dogs or other animals (regardless of breed) then it's bad.

And it is much easier to ensure that the more robust breeds or breeds which were bred to do more damage (don't anybody dispute that these exist) are muzzled in public than to control owners activities in their own homes.

Psyche: That is not an adequate source to prove tranceypoo's point on Lab's.

Annasopra

DancingGrape wrote: »

If you know your dog inside out (as i do) and know for sure that he/she will most definatley not do any of the above, there should be no problem with having a dog off the lead, especially in open green spaces.

Would the dog not poo all over the place if it's off the lead?

d'Oracle

Johnnymcg wrote: »

Would the dog not poo all over the place if it's off the lead?

Erm....It would probably poo once.
At which point a responsible owner, which DancingGrape we would assume is, would clean it up.

RosieJoe

d'Oracle wrote: »

Psyche: That is not an adequate source to prove tranceypoo's point on Lab's.

How is a university research document used in a seminar not an adequate source? Shall we use wikipedia instead?

Merch

gatecrash wrote: »

Firstly, my dog isn't off his lead unless we are at the side of my house training, or on the walk along the canal.

Secondly, he gets taken out of the house on his lead, and only when i'm happy does he get taken off his lead. By happy i mean that there are no kids around, (holding cats or not ). He's not a huge dog, or a dangerous dog (apart from to your dignity as he says hello!!) but is decent enough sized (boxer-lab cross) but i am aware that to a 5 or 6 year old he would be quite intimidating. Then and only then is he taken off his lead, and he knows that he's 'working' for treats etc.

There is a cat that lives in the house opposite, and while occasionally my fella will bark at my sitting room window to be let out cos he can see the cat, under no circumstances is he.

He's getting better about coming back, but it's a work in progress. As for not feeling in control, all i need to do is squeeze his favourite toy (squeaky ball) and cat or not he comes a running!! I want him to do that with commands, not bribery, that's why i said he might not come back if there was a cat involved. But once i use the ball, that's it, he comes straight back to me.

I'm just wondering where that leaves people who want to have a walk along the canal? I've seen a local that has a rotweiller letting the dog off the lead and he didn't have a muzzle either, as far as I'm concerned thats out of control as I dont know how aggressive that dog is or not, or how much regard the owner has for other people, so what happens if you come across a person while your dog is off the lead or another person with their dog off the lead or not?
I'd love to have the time for a dog, unfortunately most (not all) dog owners to me aren't that responsible or seem to realise what might be involved in looking after one, I've known quite a few people that have had staffs and it changed my mind about certain breeds but there is no way a person can make a judgment of what personality a dog has when it is bounding towards them.

Jelly2

Merch wrote: »

I'm just wondering where that leaves people who want to have a walk along the canal? I've seen a local that has a rotweiller letting the dog off the lead and he didn't have a muzzle either, as far as I'm concerned thats out of control as I dont know how aggressive that dog is or not, or how much regard the owner has for other people, so what happens if you come across a person while your dog is off the lead or another person with their dog off the lead or not?
I'd love to have the time for a dog, unfortunately most (not all) dog owners to me aren't that responsible or seem to realise what might be involved in looking after one, I've known quite a few people that have had staffs and it changed my mind about certain breeds but there is no way a person can make a judgment of what personality a dog has when it is bounding towards them.

In principle, just because you don't know a dog is under control does not mean it is not. Where does this end? You don't know a car is under control when it is being driven, but you have to use your judgement to gauge whether it is or not. If a car looks like it is under control, then you must assume that it is. Same with a dog. A dog running around can be recalled in a second if it is trained.
The rottweiler you mention - shouldn't that have a muzzle when in a public place? Isn't this the law?

d'Oracle

RosieJoe wrote: »

How is a university research document used in a seminar not an adequate source? Shall we use wikipedia instead?

Because it doesn't prove the point.
Its not even the real document, its a news report.

Did you read the link?

DancingGrape

You wouldnt know but it just means that my dogs wouldnt be anywere near you, therefore, you have no reason to worry. Are you one of these people who sees a loose dog, then runs half a mile? if so, the problem lies with you...

d'Oracle: Humans have the mental capacity to know right from wrong. Animals dont. In dogs case, it's monkey see, monkey do.
Adults have a choice an a level of intelligance far higher than i dog so that they can make good/bad decisions.
You cannot justify your argument.

d'Oracle

Jelly2 wrote: »

The rottweiler you mention - shouldn't that have a muzzle when in a public place? Isn't this the law?

It is.

But you are right.
Restricted breeds aside, the law says "under effective control" which is not necessarily on leash.

A well trained dog can be controlled effectively without a leash.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1986/en/act/pub/0032/sec0009.html#zza32y1986s9


Index for the act.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1986/en/act/pub/0032/index.html

d'Oracle

DancingGrape wrote: »

d'Oracle: Humans have the mental capacity to know right from wrong. Animals dont. In dogs case, it's monkey see, monkey do.
Adults have a choice an a level of intelligance far higher than i dog so that they can make good/bad decisions.
You cannot justify your argument.

We are clearly working off very different definitions of Bad.
Rather than be as appallingly dismissive as you were with that last line, I'm out.

Needless to say, I think your logic is a mess.

cyrusdvirus

Merch wrote: »

I'm just wondering where that leaves people who want to have a walk along the canal? I've seen a local that has a rotweiller letting the dog off the lead and he didn't have a muzzle either, as far as I'm concerned thats out of control as I dont know how aggressive that dog is or not, or how much regard the owner has for other people, so what happens if you come across a person while your dog is off the lead or another person with their dog off the lead or not?
I'd love to have the time for a dog, unfortunately most (not all) dog owners to me aren't that responsible or seem to realise what might be involved in looking after one, I've known quite a few people that have had staffs and it changed my mind about certain breeds but there is no way a person can make a judgment of what personality a dog has when it is bounding towards them.

As i said, he is under control and is getting better with his recalls. That's down to training. When i see someone the dog is called back and put on his lead. There are 2 walks on the canal, one goes to another part of the town and you can quite easily do a nice loop. There can be quite a bit of traffic on this route. the other walk goes out towards the next town over, about 5 miles and sees significantly less traffic as there is no logical loop, you are walking out to meet yourself coming back in. I take the second walk to minimise having my dog on his lead to give him his 'treat' walk and swim in the canal

There are people who fish on the canal, when we come close to them (by close i mean 40 or 50 feet) the dog goes on his lead. We have to cross a road at a half way point, near a lock, railway crossing and house, he goes on his lead there. For as much of the rest of the walk i like to let him run around, but always within recall distance and within a close enough distance from me... never more than 20 feet.