If there is no proof for the existence of a supernatural realm

Freiheit

why do people believe in it?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

checkyabadself

Edit; totally misinterpreted the OP.

liamw

Freiheit wrote: »

why do people believe in it?

Sweet I get to post this again

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iMmvu9eMrg

goingpostal

My answer would be, because people are scared of dying. And a lot of people don't like the thought that once we die, that is the end of our life, our consciousness and our connection to the ones we love. And because for most of our existence as a species, supernatural explanations for the nature of the world around us, were the only explanations we had.

liamw

goingpostal wrote: »

My answer would be, because people are scared of dying. And a lot of people don't like the thought that once we die, that is the end of our life, our consciousness and our connection to the ones we love. And because for most of our existence as a species, supernatural explanations for the nature of the world around us, were the only explanations we had.

I agree with you but then we can ask why do we need explanations at all? Why can't we accept that we just don't know something. So the answer to the OPs questions can be divided into two related categories:

Evolutionary factors: Humans have a psychological predisposition to the supernatural through patternicity (looking for patterns) and hyperactive agency detection (obvious survival value - noise in the bush, assume it's a predator).

Social factors: Fear of death, comforting in the event of a death, fear of being alone, fear of a purely material world where there is no ultimate purpose, etc.

Coupled together with flawed senses and tendancy to hallucinate, you can start to see why people believe in supernatural entities.

gaynorvader

liamw wrote: »

I agree with you but then we can ask why do we need explanations at all? Why can't we accept that we just don't know something. So the answer to the OPs questions can be divided into two related categories:

Evolutionary factors: Humans have a psychological predisposition to the supernatural through patternicity (looking for patterns) and hyperactive agency detection (obvious survival value - noise in the bush, assume it's a predator).

Social factors: Fear of death, comforting in the event of a death, fear of being alone, fear of a purely material world where there is no ultimate purpose, etc.

Coupled together with flawed senses and tendancy to hallucinate, you can start to see why people believe in supernatural entities.

Possibly being told that such things exist as children also?

nozzferrahhtoo

Freiheit wrote: »

why do people believe in it?

Because our species has an awful penchant for deciding the answer to something first and seeking the evidence to confirm it second.

In often direct opposition to some of my peers on this forum and others I never define “faith” as “belief without evidence”. I define it as “the willingness to assume in advance to be true what you are trying to show is true”.

If you try it for a day, really assume there is a supernatural realm which is influencing your every day life and events, you will likely find you are surrounded in evidence confirming your assumption.

Try it with “god” too. If you assume there really is one, you will find yourself literally surrounded in evidence that confirms this. The bible itself actively supports you in your endeavour too when it says “Seek and you shall find”.

If our entire species suddenly tomorrow, at the flick of a switch, changed into a species that started only with the evidence on hand and followed it to its conclusions, you would likely find belief in gods would die instantly.

Why do I suspect this to be so? Because after 20 years of asking for any evidence, argument, data or reasons to support the notion that a non-human intelligence is responsible for the creation and subsequent maintenance of our universe… nothing has ever been shown that does not first require you to assume there IS such an intelligence before applying that “evidence”.

Not once.

Ever.

Beruthiel

Freiheit wrote: »

why do people believe in it?

Once upon a time, long, long ago, a cave man looked up at the stars and was scared. So he decided they were his dead ancestors looking down on him from the heavens in a protective way. A warm, fuzzy feeling came over him and he lived happily ever after.
Fin.

nozzferrahhtoo

Freiheit wrote: »

why do people believe in it?

Actually there is probably innumerable answers to your question. Another one is that our species has a penchant for personifying aspects of the Human Condition and of reality.

This is not a bad thing and the personification of aspects of our existence actually can result in wonderful music, literature and art. Greek mythology is almost endlessly interesting for example, with its personfications of aspects of the human condition into characters that we then tell tales about (the god of love, the god of war, the god of thunder and so on).

Creating personifications in our head is something we do all the time. You do it for example when you think a sentence like "I wonder if my mum suspects that I think she knows I took the money from the cookie jar". You are in fact creating a very real ( to you ) representation of your mother in your head in order to do your pondering. The representation is almost as real to us as actually experiencing the real person.

So when we personify aspects of reality in this way, it is a small step to actually feeling those personifications are in fact real. Most of our representations usually are real for sound reasons. So we are not born with a faculty for distinguishing the two types… as for evolutionary reasons it was never necessary to do so.

robindch

Freiheit wrote: »

why do people believe in it?

That's a rather larger question than it might first seem. These two good books attempt to answer it:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0226901343 - David Sloan Wilson, Darwin's Cathedral: Evolution, Religion, and the Nature of Society
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0195178033 - Scott Atran, In Gods We Trust: The Evolutionary Landscape of Religion

Pace2008

goingpostal wrote: »

My answer would be, because people are scared of dying. And a lot of people don't like the thought that once we die, that is the end of our life, our consciousness and our connection to the ones we love.

Yeah, this would apply to most of the theists I know. I don't think too many people care one way or another about god himself, but if this omnipotent being can let them have a cup of tea with their granny after they die they're going to back him all the way. I think that's why some people can get a bit prickly when you tell them you don't believe god exists; they're essentially hearing you say "Your granny's nothing but a rotting corpse and you're going the same way when you kick the bucket."

liamw

gaynorvader wrote: »

Possibly being told that such things exist as children also?

Yep, a child's mind is like a sponge. Again, this is an evolutionary adaptation. However, we need more to explain why, as adults, we don't dismiss this religious nonsense.

condra

If there is no proof for the existence of a supernatural realm, why do people believe in it?

I suspect superstitious beliefs started in early man for different reasons such as:
to explain the unknown
to manipulate people

Superstition has survived as a sort of cultural virus.

karlog

Freiheit wrote: »

why do people believe in it?

They have faith.

ColmDawson

karlog wrote: »

They have faith.

He knows this much. He's asking why.

drifting

Freiheit wrote: »

why do people believe in it?

You certainly don't have to be in any sense a believer to accept a supernatural realm.

The evidence for ghosts is beyond any dispute, as they have been photographed countless times and are regularly reported in the press, at least in the UK. Poltergeist activity is also numerous.

Doctor DooM

drifting wrote: »

You certainly don't have to be in any sense a believer to accept a supernatural realm.

The evidence for ghosts is beyond any dispute, as they have been photographed countless times and are regularly reported in the press, at least in the UK. Poltergeist activity is also numerous.

I'll use my own psychic powers here and say there is a whole lot of disputation about to happen right here.

Morbert

drifting wrote: »

The evidence for ghosts is beyond any dispute, as they have been photographed countless times and are regularly reported in the press, at least in the UK. Poltergeist activity is also numerous.

The same goes for aliens.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FaCFo-IEPE

drifting

Morbert wrote: »

The same goes for aliens.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FaCFo-IEPE

I think the evidence for ghosts is in altogether in a different league.

Ush1

Same as religion, it's ignorance, irrational thinking or both.

Morbert

drifting wrote: »

I think the evidence for ghosts is in altogether in a different league.

Of course it isn't. It is equally lacking in rigour.

robindch

drifting wrote: »

that Jesus rose from the dead is the irrefutable proof of the validity of religion.

drifting wrote: »

The evidence for ghosts is beyond any dispute, as they have been photographed countless times

It'd be quite something if somebody managed to take a photo of the Holy Ghost!

Doctor DooM

drifting wrote: »

I think the evidence for ghosts is in altogether in a different league.

I'm pretty sure someone who believes in aliens would disagree.

Sigh, come on then, where's this evidence.

Bear in mind saying "there's loads out there, find it yourself" is an auto fail.

drifting

Doctor DooM wrote: »

I'm pretty sure someone who believes in aliens would disagree.

Sigh, come on then, where's this evidence.

Bear in mind saying "there's loads out there, find it yourself" is an auto fail.

OK, I'll concede that some of the ghost photos could be fakes, particularly where the photographer has some background in TV, film or photography as was the case recently with the Gwrych Castle ghost widely reported, but the sheer number of photos and other evidences is really just too much now. I can't be bothered too much spend time now; and you can use google as well as I.

http://www.moonslipper.com/ghostphotographs.html
http://www.castleofspirits.com/hamptoncourt.html
http://www.ghostsofamerica.com/

Dades

drifting wrote: »

OK, I'll concede that some of the ghost photos could be fakes, particularly where the photographer has some background in TV, film or photography as was the case recently with the Gwrych Castle ghost widely reported, but the sheer number of photos and other evidences is really just too much now. I can't be bothered too much spend time now; and you can use google as well as I.

Check out the ghost moving around in the background of this one... I'm convinced!



Seriously - photographs can never be evidence enough for such outrageous claims. They're simply too easy to fake.

antiskeptic

Freiheit wrote: »

why do people believe in it?

For the same reason people believe other people love them. Even though there's no proof. When faced with a lack of proof, the next best thing to do is to ask "where does the evidence point".

Doctor DooM

drifting wrote: »

OK, I'll concede that some of the ghost photos could be fakes, particularly where the photographer has some background in TV, film or photography as was the case recently with the Gwrych Castle ghost widely reported, but the sheer number of photos and other evidences is really just too much now. I can't be bothered too much spend time now; and you can use google as well as I.

http://www.moonslipper.com/ghostphotographs.html
http://www.castleofspirits.com/hamptoncourt.html
http://www.ghostsofamerica.com/

Aaaah. I did say autofail.

It's amazing how it's only people who claim things which are not accepted who ever say this. It turns a lack of evidence on your part into me being lazy.

Just to make it perfectly clear, I also note the lack of any academic evidence there, just photos.

Ush1

antiskeptic wrote: »

For the same reason people believe other people love them. Even though there's no proof. When faced with a lack of proof, the next best thing to do is to ask "where does the evidence point".

Explain what you mean here. People believe other people love them usually based on evidence, otherwise they are just wierd and/or stalkers.

antiskeptic

Ush1 wrote: »

Explain what you mean here. People believe other people love them usually based on evidence, otherwise they are just wierd and/or stalkers.

People believing that someone loves them is quite a different thing to them having proof that they are loved. Not that the lack of proof means people should stop believing they are loved by another.

In other words: so what if there is no proof for the existance of the supernatural realm

robindch

Dades wrote: »

Check out the ghost moving around in the background of this one... I'm convinced!

Jesus, Dades, are you the Holy Ghost? If so, then count me converted!

Real slick move on god's part to make the Holy Ghost bit of him the moderator of the local atheists and agnostics board! Pass on my congrats to yourself/god and yourself/Jesus when you meet them/you later on!

bigswede12

Freiheit wrote: »

why do people believe in it?

Offcourse i was talking to Elvis yesterday

Ush1

antiskeptic wrote: »

People believing that someone loves them is quite a different thing to them having proof that they are loved. Not that the lack of proof means people should stop believing they are loved by another.

In other words: so what if there is no proof for the existance of the supernatural realm

Again, illustrate to me an instance where you believe someone loves you without any evidence?

Of course lack of proof should discourage them from believing. That is the only reasonable outcome.

Sam Vimes

antiskeptic wrote: »

People believing that someone loves them is quite a different thing to them having proof that they are loved. Not that the lack of proof means people should stop believing they are loved by another.

In other words: so what if there is no proof for the existance of the supernatural realm

You're right. I for one believe Angelina Jolie loves me and I won't listen to anyone who talks such nonsense as "she's never even heard of you" and "you're insane". They just haven't felt the love for themselves

Dades

robindch wrote: »

Pass on my congrats to yourself/god and yourself/Jesus when you meet them/you later on!

Well we need one more for football later, so either of them turn up we're sorted.

genericguy

Pace2008 wrote: »

Yeah, this would apply to most of the theists I know. I don't think too many people care one way or another about god himself, but if this omnipotent being can let them have a cup of tea with their granny after they die they're going to back him all the way. I think that's why some people can get a bit prickly when you tell them you don't believe god exists; they're essentially hearing you say "Your granny's nothing but a rotting corpse and you're going the same way when you kick the bucket."

you're so eloquent pace. onthe other hand though, it always intrigues me why the more devoutly religious seem to be most afraid of dying when they profess such certainty about the existence of this magical heaven land.

seamus

Ush1 wrote: »

Again, illustrate to me an instance where you believe someone loves you without any evidence?

If you believe that someone else loves you, despite having no proof of it, you are labelled a weirdo, a creep and a sad case.

If you believe that an invisible deity loves you, despite having no proof of it, you're "holy".

Go figure.

bigswede12

Ush1 wrote: »

Again, illustrate to me an instance where you believe someone loves you without any evidence

Dont you have a mother

JimiTime

Freiheit wrote: »

why do people believe in it?

Depends on how you define proof. The fact that we are here in all our complexity, along with the fact that existance exists including the universe etc, is to me an overwhelming evidence that we are in a created universe, and that whatever created us is outside of that universe. So if all you trust is what you can observe and test, then you will stop at the observable realm. This is why you'll have atheists say that atheism is not a denial of a creator, but rather the denial of the existance of all deities man has worshipped. Some may go further and take the faith position that scientists will eventually find how the universe began.

Note, that what I have described does not lead you to a particular god/creator, but can be an initial step in identifying if there is any wisdom in existance which gives any indication of what/who this being/thing is/was.

Ush1

bigswede12 wrote: »

Dont you have a mother

:pac:

This should be good. Yes indeed I do.

Ush1

seamus wrote: »

If you believe that someone else loves you, despite having no proof of it, you are labelled a weirdo, a creep and a sad case.

If you believe that an invisible deity loves you, despite having no proof of it, you're "holy".

Go figure.

Certainly. Although the only "holy" thing seems to be their logic.

Sam Vimes

JimiTime wrote: »

Depends on how you define proof. The fact that we are here in all our complexity, along with the fact that existance exists including the universe etc, is to me an overwhelming evidence that we are in a created universe, and that whatever created us is outside of that universe. So if all you trust is what you can observe and test, then you will stop at the observable realm. This is why you'll have atheists say that atheism is not a denial of a creator, but rather the denial of the existance of all deities man has worshipped. Some may go further and take the faith position that scientists will eventually find how the universe began.

Note, that what I have described does not lead you to a particular god/creator, but can be an initial step in identifying if there is any wisdom in existance which gives any indication of what/who this being/thing is/was.

Two things that science has tracked down so far are:

1. How evolution accounts for all of our complexity that you attribute to god
2. How we have a propensity to attribute things to intelligent agency whether they were caused by intelligent agency or not

I'm afraid the gap you have placed your god in was closed 150 years ago by Mr. Charles Darwin

As for existence existing, that indicates to me that existence exists and says little or nothing about whether or not the stories in a book from Israel 2000 years ago are true

CerebralCortex

JimiTime wrote: »

Depends on how you define proof. The fact that we are here in all our complexity, along with the fact that existance exists including the universe etc, is to me an overwhelming evidence that we are in a created universe, and that whatever created us is outside of that universe...

No you're jumping to conclusions. It's not overwhelming evidence of a creator but rather evidence of complexity. Sam is right, to whittle it down to a deity belittles the concept.

Sam Vimes

CerebralCortex wrote: »

No you're jumping to conclusions. It's not overwhelming evidence of a creator but rather evidence of complexity. Sam is right, to whittle it down to a deity belittles the concept.

And doesn't actually make any sense. As we've been saying to Jakkass for the past few days, saying that something is so complex that it must have been created by something even more complex creates an infinite regression of increasing complexity. Explaining complexity with more complexity explains nothing. The only workable solution is one where complexity arose from simplicity as described by evolution.

drifting

robindch wrote: »

....Holy Ghost....

Altogether on a higher level. Atheists and agnostics definitely won't be seeing him, anytime soon.

goingpostal

drifting wrote: »

Altogether on a higher level. Atheists and agnostics definitely won't be seeing him, anytime soon.

Neither will anybody else......

Sam Vimes

drifting wrote: »

Altogether on a higher level. Atheists and agnostics definitely won't be seeing him, anytime soon.

I think you're right about that. But you might want to throw your net a bit wider. I don't think anyone will be seeing him except those on LSD

edit:

goingpostal wrote: »

Neither will anybody else......

snap :pac:

Ush1

drifting wrote: »

Altogether on a higher level. Atheists and agnostics definitely won't be seeing him, anytime soon.

Says you.

drifting

Ush1 wrote: »

Says you.

Well, lets put it this way, my father in law, who recently died, reported being visited by what he described as an angel shortly before his death. Try disputing that one.

Sam Vimes

drifting wrote: »

Well, lets put it this way, my father in law, who recently died, reported being visited by what he described as an angel shortly before his death. Try disputing that one.

OMFG YOU'VE CONVERTED ME!!1!1!!!1!!!

How do you dispute all the similar claims made by people of other religions?

bigswede12

drifting wrote: »

Well, lets put it this way, my father in law, who recently died, reported being visited by what he described as an angel shortly before his death. Try disputing that one.

No offense but was he on any medications at the time?