Bishops + Department of Education To Begin "Consultations" Sometime

robindch

The bishops have released a long statement in which they say they:

Irish Bishops wrote:

[...] have for some time stressed their willingness to cooperate in the process of ensuring a greater variety of patronage within the primary school system to respond to the needs of parents.

Well, the Department sat up, paid attention and made the following announcement today:

http://www.education.ie/home/home.jsp?maincat=&pcategory=10861&ecategory=10876&sectionpage=12251&language=EN&link=link001&page=1&doc=50435

...and here's the report:

http://www.education.ie/servlet/blobservlet/report_divesting_of_patronage_primary_schools.pdf

As far as I can make out, it appears to propose a death-march of a process at the end of which, the church may, through the grace of god and innumerable "consultations" ultimately find itself able to "identify" one or more trial schools which it wishes to hand over to the control of the state.

I predict that no significant change of control will happen before at least 2030.

Ickle Magoo

I think you are being optimistic.

goingpostal

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0803/breaking29.html

My favourite bit is this quote: “does not see itself in the future as the sole or dominant provider of schools”. So its going to divest its interest in at least 42% of the schools in Ireland? That would bring them below 50% of the primary schools in Ireland. I think it more likely that I will grow a third leg. This is one area where they will fight tooth and nail to maintain control. Indoctrinating young children with their creepy fairytales is vital to the survival of any religion.

Dades

I can see this decision requiring a lot of 'reflection'.

recedite

Some of the Christian Brothers schools had to close years ago due to lack of customers. So it's possible that they might now identify some lame duck school, preferably located in a prefab, which they don't mind being rid of. That should do nicely for the "trial". If the new patron can't make a success of it, it will prove that the RCC were right all along.

Denerick

The RCC doesn't particularly want the hassle of running schools, or at least as many of them, believe it or not. If nothing else they are running out of clergy and the schools all too often don't have active clerical intervention any more. In ten years time the situation will be more pressing. Its natural that they will want to forego some schools. Its a consolidation process. Ye are far too cynical.

mohawk

Its never going to happen.

robindch

Denerick wrote: »

Ye are far too cynical.

Well, we only have the evidence to go on.

What are you aware of that suggests that the church no longer wants to manage schools?

PeterIanStaker

robindch wrote: »

I predict that no significant change of control will happen before at least 2030.

you mean 2130?

axer

Denerick wrote: »

The RCC doesn't particularly want the hassle of running schools, or at least as many of them, believe it or not. If nothing else they are running out of clergy and the schools all too often don't have active clerical intervention any more. In ten years time the situation will be more pressing. Its natural that they will want to forego some schools. Its a consolidation process. Ye are far too cynical.

There's no way that the RCC want to get rid of schools.

Nobody in their right mind would believe the crap they spout unless they are 8 years old. Hence why the RCC need schools.

Beruthiel

Dades wrote: »

I can see this decision requiring a lot of 'reflection'.

Mature reflection....

Ickle Magoo

Denerick wrote: »

The RCC doesn't particularly want the hassle of running schools, or at least as many of them, believe it or not. If nothing else they are running out of clergy and the schools all too often don't have active clerical intervention any more. In ten years time the situation will be more pressing. Its natural that they will want to forego some schools. Its a consolidation process. Ye are far too cynical.

The government don't want them either - that's the problem - especially now they are struggling to pay their exorbitant salaries and limos between airport aprons. They have failed at every opportunity when most other modern countries took responsibility for education a hundred years ago, I have no reason to believe they won't continue shirking for as long as they possibly can and I also have no doubt that despite the lip-service, the RCC has no intention of giving up control of their little indoctrination centres, especially in the middle of the current crises and mass abandonment by many of their old faithful.

magicbastarder

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

The government don't want them either - that's the problem - especially now they are struggling to pay their exorbitant salaries and limos between airport aprons.

this suggests that the church pays for the running of the RC controlled schools.
the department of education pays the teacher salaries in *private* religious schools, let alone RC controlled national schools.

axer

magicbastarder wrote: »

this suggests that the church pays for the running of the RC controlled schools.
the department of education pays the teacher salaries in *private* religious schools, let alone RC controlled catholic schools.

Yes, the government pays pretty much everything for these schools. Salaries, capitation grants, costs of prefabs etc.

From my experience of one RCC primary school in particular (this school is in one of the towns being considered by the DOE) that I know the inner workings very well of I am not aware of one thing that the local parish/church pays for. The land the school was built on was passed to the church free of charge as it belonged to the town due to the wishes of the original landlord of the town way back designating the property as being only for local services use.

The only extra costs I can see is that A. the church sell the land to the government (which should not happen since they didn't pay for the land originally and since the government has been funding the school for years) and B. any additional administration costs of owning it.

Ickle Magoo

magicbastarder wrote: »

this suggests that the church pays for the running of the RC controlled schools.
the department of education pays the teacher salaries in *private* religious schools, let alone RC controlled national schools.

Yes but presumably the RCC aren't going to give over all the buildings and land for free? They have compensation to raise...

robindch

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

the RCC aren't going to give over all the buildings and land for free?

Up to a (very limited) point, yes they will. The original €125m residential abuse settlement did contain, AFAIR, something like €80m of school and hospital buildings. However, most of this stuff can't be sold, so it has no actual cash value to the state.

Since the abuse settlement ten or so years ago, the religious orders set up a range of trusts, whose trustees are members of the religious orders themselves, or people sympathetic to the order. Of the three or four orders I checked sometime last year, I recall that most had acquired substantial (>80%) portions of the assets of their founding organizations, thus legally protecting them from state acquisition without the state taking the Orders to the High Court to have the transactions reversed. Which is unlikely to happen.

It's probable that these trusts could transfer further properties to the state, but will probably be done to offset the increased payments that the orders were forced, under intense pressure, to promise last year. Again, few of these properties are salable so the actual cash value transferred to the state will probably be minimal.

recedite

Could Compulsory Purchase Orders be used in these situations, with a nominal valuation?

magicbastarder

sure the government could just move the schools into the ghost estates if the church refused to play ball.

seamus

axer wrote: »

any additional administration costs of owning it.

Easy solution for that one - ringfence a per-child budget, per school, which pays for admin & upkeep and also allows the school to subsidise the cost of books and stationary.

Then halve the child benefit, with the very obvious intention that the child benefit you're losing is the money that you won't have to pay in "voluntary contributions", school uniforms and materials for the next 18 years.

robindch

recedite wrote: »

Could Compulsory Purchase Orders be used in these situations, with a nominal valuation?

I doubt it -- the CPO system is complex and if the church wanted to fight it, then they could create an unending stream of legal misery.

This has to be done with the consent of the church, though at the moment, it seems that the church seems to be more enthusiastic about losing the schools than the Department of Education is about handing them over to the VEC's or Educate Together (and I don't quite understand why, at least in a non-conspiratorial way).

sonicthebadger*

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Yes but presumably the RCC aren't going to give over all the buildings and land for free? They have compensation to raise...

No they don't! They were allowed to cap that. All the compensation for victims of the church comes from the taxpayer now.

...

Just read robin's post. Has that changed? Are the RCC going to be made pay?