What would you do to improve the LOI?

Ferris_Bueller

The last few pages seem to have brought up ideas such as an inter county league gaa style or an all-ireland league to boost attendances but in reality I think the only way the league will properly grow is to improve the quality, which will require a total rebuild from the bottom structure upwards. If LoI teams are producing better players they will attract more fans due to the better quality of football on display, perform better in European competition (making more money for themselves and attracting fans) and by selling players more a higher price to clubs across the water, again producing more money. Then we can start improving facilities and advertising etc. I don't think there is any shortcut we can take that will benefit the league long term.


As an ex-LoI fan, I just no longer see the attraction to the league if I don't have a local team, which I imagine applies for many people throughout the country. My closest team would probably be Shamrock Rovers, who are top of the league, played in europe, have a lovely stadium, only half an hours drive away, reasonably easy to access via public transport, (i imagine) would have one of the best atmospheres in the league not to mention one of the better footballing teams. But no, to be honest I just wouldn't bother going up to one of their matchs and this is coming from someone who used to be a big follower of the league. I can only imagine how people in my shoes who are completely unattatched to the league would feel.

And since my interest in the LoI has dwindled, I have found myself following the EPL more and with a bigger interest, and I don't blame people who follow that league to be honest. It's a more talked about subject, easier to follow and hear news/updates about, the games are of much better quality and with the quality of production on Sky Sports, you can watch about 3 games a weekend from the comfort of your own home, a much simpler option than going out to a match on a cold wet Friday night (although admittedly it is not anywhere near as good a feeling when Liverpool win as to when Kildare County won).
It's not easy to get new fans to go to games with the way the league is currently, so I wouldn't be focusing solely on that, more so the improvement of the standard in the country which for me, is the only route to success.

micks

I have been called a barstoller in many fora. I would consider my self a Liverpool fan. Yet I spend 20-40 hrs a wk with my local schoolboy / junior club watching matches, coaching attending meetings etc. And am a rovers season ticket holder but am not a fan.
Personally I think there is no community feeling in the LOI. No links from u7 to adult. 20yrs ago very few LOI had schoolboy teams. Rovers have what I'm talking about in abundance. That's how I got a family season ticket. By them talking to schoolboy clubs having kids on at halftime, doing ballboy, inviting them to games building up relationships. LOI fans go on about the low attendances compared to GAA but I'd love to get the figures. I reckon there's more watching schoolboy,junior and intermediate games of football annually than GAA. Every week there's at least 50000 playing football in Dublin alone giving 1 watching each player over 30 weeks would rival any other sport and that's just Dublin. That's the real rival of LOI. If loi clubs create a link with these clubs they open up a whole new audience.
Those saying that football needs change from top to bottom need to go and have a look at schoolboy football particulary Ddsl u15-16 prem. These divisions should be mirrors of the loi instead of crumlin, cherry orchard, belvedere home farm etc.

From what I've seen of rovers they're going to dominate the LOI for yrs. Great stadium, loads of fans, loads of kids, excellent schoolboy set up.

Back to facilities Is there any LOI club that owns the ground where it trains?
Seriously they're around yrs and most only have a stadium and first team looked after. Everything else doesn't seem to matter. It'll just happen. A champ, u20, schoolboy don't seem to matter.
As the saying goes buildings only as strong as their foundations.

bohsman

micks, from what Ive seen intermediate clubs have very little time for LOI clubs, not sure there's any way of healing that rift tbh. Not sure on the exact details but all Bohs teams underage to senior squad use the top class facilities in DCU and there's also a scholarship programme available.

I agree with you completely, would love to see Bohs build from the bottom up and dominate in the schoolboy leagues.

CiaranC

Great post micks

Dempsey

micks wrote: »

I have been called a barstoller in many fora. I would consider my self a Liverpool fan. Yet I spend 20-40 hrs a wk with my local schoolboy / junior club watching matches, coaching attending meetings etc. And am a rovers season ticket holder but am not a fan.
Personally I think there is no community feeling in the LOI. No links from u7 to adult. 20yrs ago very few LOI had schoolboy teams. Rovers have what I'm talking about in abundance. That's how I got a family season ticket. By them talking to schoolboy clubs having kids on at halftime, doing ballboy, inviting them to games building up relationships. LOI fans go on about the low attendances compared to GAA but I'd love to get the figures. I reckon there's more watching schoolboy,junior and intermediate games of football annually than GAA. Every week there's at least 50000 playing football in Dublin alone giving 1 watching each player over 30 weeks would rival any other sport and that's just Dublin. That's the real rival of LOI. If loi clubs create a link with these clubs they open up a whole new audience.
Those saying that football needs change from top to bottom need to go and have a look at schoolboy football particulary Ddsl u15-16 prem. These divisions should be mirrors of the loi instead of crumlin, cherry orchard, belvedere home farm etc.

From what I've seen of rovers they're going to dominate the LOI for yrs. Great stadium, loads of fans, loads of kids, excellent schoolboy set up.

Back to facilities Is there any LOI club that owns the ground where it trains?
Seriously they're around yrs and most only have a stadium and first team looked after. Everything else doesn't seem to matter. It'll just happen. A champ, u20, schoolboy don't seem to matter.
As the saying goes buildings only as strong as their foundations.

I'd like to get yerself and John Delaney into a room although his head might explode at the thought of doing some real work! :pac:

djpbarry

Ferris_Bueller wrote: »

The last few pages seem to have brought up ideas such as an inter county league gaa style or an all-ireland league to boost attendances but in reality I think the only way the league will properly grow is to improve the quality...

But the quality has improved, yet attendances seem to be going down, if anything.

The idea of keeping young players in the country for longer makes sense, but it’s extremely difficult to implement in practice. Imagine a young lad playing for Cherry Orchard who’s told that both Pat’s and <insert Premiership team here> are interested in signing him. Realistically, he might have about a 20% chance of breaking into the Pat’s first team and less than a 1% chance of making it at the Premiership side, but he’s still going make the move across the water every time. Irish clubs just can’t compete with the appeal of English sides.

loyatemu

According to the Irish Times the attendance at the Carlisle grounds on Friday was a little over 500. This is bang in the middle of a well-populated area (Bray, Greystones, Enniskerry, Shankill - over 50K people within 10 mins of the ground).

OK, Bray are bottom of the league, but the idea that putting a club in each county will suddenly have thousands of people rocking up every week to watch LOI football is nonsense; you'd just have a load of extra clubs with tiny attendances.

They need to concentrate on the clubs with a decent fanbase already, they do need to bring in the 3 or 4 bigger Norn Iron clubs and then they need to concentrate on improving the facilities and the rewards available to the players (ie in the short to medium term the FAI and IFA would need to subsidise the league).

SantryRed

bohsman wrote: »

micks, from what Ive seen intermediate clubs have very little time for LOI clubs, not sure there's any way of healing that rift tbh. Not sure on the exact details but all Bohs teams underage to senior squad use the top class facilities in DCU and there's also a scholarship programme available.

I agree with you completely, would love to see Bohs build from the bottom up and dominate in the schoolboy leagues.

I'm sorry but that is bull. A lot still train in the Albert College Park and Bohs underage set up is an absolute shambles. They are the best team in the country yet in every age their team isn't in the top league in the DDSL which just isn't good enough for a LOI side.

dreamers75

SantryRed wrote: »

I'm sorry but that is bull. A lot still train in the Albert College Park and Bohs underage set up is an absolute shambles. They are the best team in the country yet in every age their team isn't in the top league in the DDSL which just isn't good enough for a LOI side.

St pats under 15s and 16s won their respective leagues last season, as normal when a new season starts the club holds trials. St Pats had to as they only have 2 players for their 16s and 17s, guess where the rest went

SantryRed

dreamers75 wrote: »

St pats under 15s and 16s won their respective leagues last season, as normal when a new season starts the club holds trials. St Pats had to as they only have 2 players for their 16s and 17s, guess where the rest went

Well they'd want there heads screwed on or they aren't good. Bohs have no teams in the top flight from U11s to U17s. They are only in the 18s top league last year as so many teams drop out at 17s.

Leagues are here: http://www.a2zsoccer.com/ResultsandFixtures/tabid/41/Ctry/IE/Orgn/3076442/Tour/3076510/Default.aspx

Ferris_Bueller

djpbarry wrote: »

But the quality has improved, yet attendances seem to be going down, if anything.

The idea of keeping young players in the country for longer makes sense, but it’s extremely difficult to implement in practice. Imagine a young lad playing for Cherry Orchard who’s told that both Pat’s and <insert Premiership team here> are interested in signing him. Realistically, he might have about a 20% chance of breaking into the Pat’s first team and less than a 1% chance of making it at the Premiership side, but he’s still going make the move across the water every time. Irish clubs just can’t compete with the appeal of English sides.

That's true, but as one of the first posts in this thread said, if the LoI club were to offer the chance for them to continue their education in college (possibly a scholarship even?) and the opportunity to play football at a high(ish) level then would we have a better chance of them staying home instead of flying over to the first championship team that calls (I agree with you if it were a premiership club the temptation would probably be too much).

CiaranC

Ferris_Bueller wrote: »

That's true, but as one of the first posts in this thread said, if the LoI club were to offer the chance for them to continue their education in college (possibly a scholarship even?) and the opportunity to play football at a high(ish) level then would we have a better chance of them staying home instead of flying over to the first championship team that calls (I agree with you if it were a premiership club the temptation would probably be too much).

Rovers do this

bohsman

As do Fingal, Bohs and UCD.

Ferris_Bueller

Did not know this. Do they offer it to all players even youths or just some of their top players?

CiaranC

Ferris_Bueller wrote: »

Did not know this. Do they offer it to all players even youths or just some of their top players?

All U20, A and Senior Team players AFAIK

bohsman

Ferris_Bueller wrote: »

Did not know this. Do they offer it to all players even youths or just some of their top players?

Im not sure of the specifics for each club, Bohs offer it to the best youths at the mo, Kevin Hunt did a part time course in DCU towards the end of his career, we facilitated this around training etc but no idea who financed it, think UCD and Fingal use it to convince good young players to sign.

homerjay2005

having read throught the bohs accounts posted, in detail, its clear to see where the main problem is - wages.

f8ck me, over 2.5million in wages in one year in total when you add all staff in, is shocking. its clear that the 65% rule can be manipluated, so its simple, put a contract and wage cap on all players for the immediate future is the only way to save clubs.

maybe limit it to 2 years and have player at most on 600 to a grand a week for full time pro or even limit it to pay per game and bonuses. the league as it is, cannot sustain such greed from the players.

bohsman

homerjay2005 wrote: »

having read throught the bohs accounts posted, in detail, its clear to see where the main problem is - wages.

f8ck me, over 2.5million in wages in one year in total when you add all staff in, is shocking. its clear that the 65% rule can be manipluated, so its simple, put a contract and wage cap on all players for the immediate future is the only way to save clubs.

maybe limit it to 2 years and have player at most on 600 to a grand a week for full time pro or even limit it to pay per game and bonuses. the league as it is, cannot sustain such greed from the players.

We havent offered over 1k a week in 2 season, the problem is players on longer contracts, our wage bill is still down to 1.2m or so this season.

Gavin "shels"

Ferris_Bueller wrote: »

Did not know this. Do they offer it to all players even youths or just some of their top players?

Fingal have had some of their top players in DCU iirc under there scheme. Only noteable Rovers player in the last while that has taken up the offer of ITT was Amond. Not sure about Bohs or UCD.

CiaranC wrote: »

All U20, A and Senior Team players AFAIK

AFAIK only half a dozen take advantage of it, but think it's all players yes.

homerjay2005 wrote: »

having read throught the bohs accounts posted, in detail, its clear to see where the main problem is - wages.

f8ck me, over 2.5million in wages in one year in total when you add all staff in, is shocking. its clear that the 65% rule can be manipluated, so its simple, put a contract and wage cap on all players for the immediate future is the only way to save clubs.

It's been clear the 65% rule is a joke for ages, Fingals wage budget around €17,000 with attendences of 400-500, Derrys dual-contract crap, etc... It needs to be stricter, "donations" shouldn't be allow be used in the 65% thing, no 6 figure sum from NAMA (ala Gerry Gannon) at Fingal, no advances on Dalyer, etc..

djpbarry

Gavin shels wrote: »

It's been clear the 65% rule is a joke for ages, Fingals wage budget around €17,000 with attendences of 400-500, Derrys dual-contract crap, etc... It needs to be stricter, "donations" shouldn't be allow be used in the 65% thing, no 6 figure sum from NAMA (ala Gerry Gannon) at Fingal, no advances on Dalyer, etc..

Enforcing the salary cap was always going to be a challenge, requiring constant revision of the rules. Unfortunately, there'll always be clubs trying to bend the rules so they can splash cash and hoover up top players.

tolosenc

My thoughts:

We're a small country. We're not going to ahve teams of the likes of Real Madrid or AC Milan. At very best, we'd be looking to have the top teams in Ireland able for a mid-table finish in the Dutch or Portuguese leagues.

I'd like to see a more franchise based system. Set up new teams in bigger population centres, and larger areas which are more sparsely populated. Catchment areas for fans, if you will. Then operate the provincial rugby style academy system, keeping players here till 21-22. Any integration with the IFA would be good too. We need fundamental changes on how football is organised in this country. Centrally plan it till it gets going, then reduce the league's influence.

Ultimately, we need money, which we don't have.

djpbarry

tolosenc wrote: »

I'd like to see a more franchise based system.

It’s been tried – it doesn’t work.

tolosenc wrote: »

Set up new teams in bigger population centres...

What big population centres exist in this country that do not currently have an LOI team?

tolosenc wrote: »

...and larger areas which are more sparsely populated.

Again, this won’t work – new fans are not going to travel large distances to attend games.

tolosenc wrote: »

Then operate the provincial rugby style academy system, keeping players here till 21-22.

Keeping players here is extremely difficult because the lure of the Premiership (and even the Championship) is far too strong. As for rugby, the reason the (professional) provincial model has been so successful is because (in my opinion) there was no pre-existing English Premiership-supporting fan base to be convinced of the merits of domestic rugby. People watched international rugby, but they didn’t really follow club rugby, so there was a huge potential market there. The same is obviously not true of soccer.

tolosenc wrote: »

Any integration with the IFA would be good too.

Not realistic in the short-to-medium term – the IFA have too much to lose.

Fr Tod Umptious

tolosenc wrote: »

I'd like to see a more franchise based system..

djpbarry wrote: »

It’s been tried – it doesn’t work.

Whne exactly has it been tried ?

CiaranC

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Whne exactly has it been tried ?

Dublin City
Sporting Fingal

djpbarry

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Whne exactly has it been tried ?

I should have phrased that better...

An entirely franchise-based system, similar to the MLS, has not been tried, no. However, several (so-far unsuccessful) attempts have been made to 'plant' a club in a particular catchment area, the latest being Sporting Fingal, which is being run on a totally unsustainable basis and cannot survive in its current form without the backing of Gerry Gannon. Previous attempts include Kildare County and Dublin City. Clubs without a history and associated fan base, or a grassroots structure ala Wexford, will not survive.

Fr Tod Umptious

djpbarry wrote: »

I should have phrased that better...

An entirely franchise-based system, similar to the MLS, has not been tried, no. However, several (so-far unsuccessful) attempts have been made to 'plant' a club in a particular catchment area, the latest being Sporting Fingal, which is being run on a totally unsustainable basis and cannot survive in its current form without the backing of Gerry Gannon. Previous attempts include Kildare County and Dublin City. Clubs without a history and associated fan base, or a grassroots structure ala Wexford, will not survive.

Yea, if a franchise system is to be introduced it cannot be in isolation and would have to be part of a total re-org of European league which is something that will never happen

I do not know anything about Sporting Fingal's setup but from the outside it looks like are doomed as soon as this Gannon chap stops feeding them cash.

They remind me of Gretna

Gavin "shels"

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I do not know anything about Sporting Fingal's setup but from the outside it looks like are doomed as soon as this Gannon chap stops feeding them cash.

Moreso when Gannons fund he gave the club is gone, Gannon shouldn't be allow give anymore money to them since he's after shifting nearly €1 billion to NAMA. Once Gannon honeymoon with Fingal County Council is over, so with Sporting Fingal, there's alot more to Fingal than just Gannon lots of little favours here and there between the County Council and Gannon.

Pure_Cork

Get more games and highlights on tv, even if it's not the national broadcaster.

We've just announced a partnership with Cork Community TV, http://www.corkcityfc.net/home/2010/07/29/cork-city-fc-are-delighted-to-announce-a-partnership-with-cork-community-tv/, broadcast on Channel 803 on the UPC digital cable network and also streamed live on http://www.corkcommunitytv.ie/. Home fixtures will be broadcast on the Wednesday following each game, starting tomorrow, 6pm and repeated at 10pm. First there'll be highlights from the Limerick, Shels and Harps games, then full coverage of the Wexford game from last Friday.

Shels and Galway have fans who already produce quality highlights videos of their matches, no reason why they couldn't do this. Since there are so many clubs in Dublin, maybe the local Dub channel(s) could run a highlights show featuring all the clubs.

whatawaster

There is just so much wrong with the league that it needs to be disbanded and start again, completely afresh, but with a long term vision.

That long term vision has to be:
- keep the best Irish players playing here for as long as possible
- improve the coaching of young players and meet their educational needs
- improve facilities

Salary caps as a strict % of gate receipts should be enforced immediately. If teams are getting a couple of hundred a week max, then they should be amateur.
A certain % of income must be spent on youth development, and the focus in this area should be on skills and technique.
Each matchday squad and starting 11 should have a certain number of U-21s

I’d like to see a more integrated schoolboy system, with a greater focus on school teams and providing better coaching and training in schools.
Then, the nearest LOI club should have the pick of the better kids to train in their academy.

A focus on training kids themselves, and keeping them as long as possible, with a view to getting as much compensation as possible, should be the main focus.
- The best ones will leave when they’re 17/18 of course – the Robbie Keane’s and Damien Duff’s will always be lured abroad.
- The next best – the Kevin Doyle’s etc – will hopefully stay until their early 20s when the LOI clubs will get a decent fee for them
- The best of the rest – will hopefully have a decade long or more career here. Hopefully they’ll be able to make a decent living playing in our league, and at the end of it, will have the educational achievements to find work outside football if they need to.


Infrastructural improvements are crucial in the medium and long term.
Clearly, government/local authority funding is crucial to this happening.

The marketing/Branding of the league is a whole other kettle of fish.

Gavin "shels"

whatawaster wrote: »

That long term vision has to be:
- keep the best Irish players playing here for as long as possible
- improve the coaching of young players and meet their educational needs
- improve facilities

Only way to keep best Irish players here for as long as possible would be if a rule was introduced by FIFA that a certain amount of the International team would have to be made up of players playing in the national league, and that's never going to happen.

Improve facilities won't happen unless more people go to matches or a Rovers type plan, the latter won't happen anything soon though as there's no money in the local councils.

whatawaster

Gavin shels wrote: »

Only way to keep best Irish players here for as long as possible would be if a rule was introduced by FIFA that a certain amount of the International team would have to be made up of players playing in the national league, and that's never going to happen.

The best ones are always going to go to United/Pool etc. That's an unfortunate fact.

The next best - the ones stagnating in English academies - can and should be convinced to stay.
Better coaches, better training facilities, education are some of the incentives that need to be put in place.