What are the chances of a private making it to officer ?

PatsytheNazi

From what I've heard down the years the odd private makes it through, bit of tokenism as someone said to me. So out of say 1,000 how many might make it to Lieutenant or above ? What factors might help, e.g. doing a degree in a certain related area, having served in a few different areas such as artillery, cavalry, engineers etc

It wasn't me!

Applying for it is probably going to be the most useful thing they could do, frankly.

PatsytheNazi

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Applying for it is probably going to be the most useful thing they could do, frankly.

God that's a brillant insight. Would being in the army help as well ?

ShaneIRL

Wel if your name on boards is anything to go by you wont be making it that far anyway.

Manic Moran

All right, tone it down. It's a valid question.

In the PDF, I'd wager not too many. Figures on how many members of a Cadet class used to be PDF enlisted should be publicly available somewhere. I honestly don't know if PDF have OCS or direct commission options for those above the age limits for a cadetship.

NTM

It wasn't me!

Manic Moran wrote: »

I honestly don't know if PDF have OCS or direct commission options for those above the age limits for a cadetship.

NTM

As I recall there are systems to enable it, but I'm not sure what they are or what might be involved.

PTN: No, really. A degree will give a certain advantage, depending on the substance of it and its quality (A II.2 in English Literature and a I in Mechanical Engineering are not going to be looked at the same way). The best thing they can do is have a look at themselves and see what their experiences and achievements highlight about them with particular regard to their suitability for leadership positions within the army. If they come out of that period of introspection feeling that they have what it takes, then they should apply, and if that self-examination was correct, that quality is going to be of far greater significance than the degree, or the experience floating around areas of the military, since that's what the interviewers are going to be looking for.

PatsytheNazi

Manic Moran wrote: »

All right, tone it down. It's a valid question.

In the PDF, I'd wager not too many. Figures on how many members of a Cadet class used to be PDF enlisted should be publicly available somewhere. I honestly don't know if PDF have OCS or direct commission options for those above the age limits for a cadetship.

NTM

In the American forces it wouldn't be uncommon for a private to make it to an officer ? Just curious.

Manic Moran

I managed it.

There are a number of ways it could happen.

One is to complete a stint of, say, three years, then join ROTC. Get the degree, and get the commission.
The next is to go to OCS. Much quicker, and you need to have your degree already. There are a fair few people who enlist with degrees (I was one of them), and the Army encourages its troops to get degrees while in the service.
If the degree you get is in law or medicine, or you manage to complete a religious education, you may request an automatic commission in the medical, JAG or chaplains' corps.
If you've been in for quite a few years and proven an excellent NCO, you may be offered a direct commission. It's basically "Fill out this form, raise your right hand, and here are your lieutenant's bars". Rare, though, I've only ever met one or two direct commission officers. I've only ever had one person ask me for one, I denied it and told him to go to OCS.

NTM

minidazzler

Manic Moran wrote: »

I managed it.

There are a number of ways it could happen.

One is to complete a stint of, say, three years, then join ROTC. Get the degree, and get the commission.
The next is to go to OCS. Much quicker, and you need to have your degree already. There are a fair few people who enlist with degrees (I was one of them), and the Army encourages its troops to get degrees while in the service.
If the degree you get is in law or medicine, or you manage to complete a religious education, you may request an automatic commission in the medical, JAG or chaplains' corps.
If you've been in for quite a few years and proven an excellent NCO, you may be offered a direct commission. It's basically "Fill out this form, raise your right hand, and here are your lieutenant's bars". Rare, though, I've only ever met one or two direct commission officers. I've only ever had one person ask me for one, I denied it and told him to go to OCS.

NTM

Since we're on the subject. Regarding the highlighted part, could you promote him? or is it that he wanted a recommendation?

concussion

There have been a few CFR (Commissioning from the Ranks) competitions run over the past few years, I don't have the info but the DoD website should yield some results. In addition, the Cadet Competitions are open to serving (Other) Ranks.


Edit - I must say, I'm a bit intrigued over your use of the phrase 'making it' with regard to attaining a commission. Privates and NCO's are subordinate to Commissioned Officers, but that doesn't mean that the end goal of the Private soldier should be to wear pips and swords; fficers and Other Ranks follow completely different career paths which require different skills and attitudes.

It wasn't me!

concussion wrote: »

fficers and Other Ranks follow completely different career paths which require different skills and attitudes.

This is a point which I think is thoroughly understated. I've known some high-ranking NCOs who have had the prospects of commissions mentioned to them, but they had no interest. They liked what they were doing and didn't want to change. It's a different career altogether and there's no real direct progression straight through from private to lieutenant general.

concussion

A quick analogy would be a garage taking a mechanic and putting him in an office to oversee HR instead of making him a technical team leader.

trellheim

However most professional armies tend to have an 'up or out' policy to keep the age profiles down. Senior NCOs and the like can sometimes be commissioned to hang onto their experience, wasn't Beattie, , what was Collins' RSM commissioned like that ?

OS119

trellheim wrote: »

However most professional armies tend to have an 'up or out' policy to keep the age profiles down. Senior NCOs and the like can sometimes be commissioned to hang onto their experience, wasn't Beattie, , what was Collins' RSM commissioned like that ?

yeah, the BA has Late Entrant commisions - they are for WO's at the 20-22 year point who the Army wants to keep and who want to stay in. they commision as Captains and usually work in support roles (QM, QM(Tech), Instructors, HQ Coy 2i/c's etc). most will retire at 25-26 years as Captains, but a good few make Major, and i know one Lt. Col.

soldiers at ranks of well below WO can apply as Direct Entrants at any time - they must have their CO's recomendation, but they do not need to have quite the same academic quals as those entrants from civvie Strasse - and a handful of OP tours and a L/Cpl stripe go a long way.

probably 10% of officers in the regular Army have previous non-commisioned service, with a greater proportion in the Corps and lesser in the Infantry - in the TA is must be about 50% or so.

Delancey

I read an article some time ago where PDFORRA were highly critical of the chances for ' other ranks ' to earn a commission - the impression I had was that it's very difficult in the Army and impossible in the Naval Service.
Is that accurate ?

Irish_Army01

They run a PO( Potential Officers ) cse every 3-5 years and you must be minimum of Cpl rank. The last one they ran they wanted SNCO's and they woulfd be promoted as a Capt(same as BA into Admin/Q appointments) and anything under Sgt (Cpl) would be promoted as a Lt.

AFAIK all were promoted as LT's as they only got in Cpls/Sgts. open to correction.

all PO's will make it to Commandant(Major) if they stay until the death(retirement).. Know only one who made it to Lt Col and he was a CS when he did the cse and from Ordnance.. Gentlemen too.

Manic Moran

Since we're on the subject. Regarding the highlighted part, could you promote him? or is it that he wanted a recommendation?

Only Congress grants commissions. Or, more accurately, the Secretary of the Army on behalf of Congress advised by the Army G-1. I would be the first step in the recommendation process, it would have to go up the chain to D.C. I'm sure the guy (who was a SGT/E-5) will make a pretty good officer, but I just don't think he had the background and experience to merit skipping the commissioning courses.

To give you an idea, of the two direct commissions that I knew, one of them, commissioned in 2001, he had been around long enough to have been an NCO and tank gunner in Desert Storm. The other had also been a tanker in Desert Storm, and at that, a company commander. Resigned his commission shortly afterwards. Came back into the military back about 2008 as a SGT/E-5. We gave him his bars back just before we went to Afghanistan.

NTM

Yitzhak Rabin

There have been quite a few Pte's in the cadet classes over the years. When I joined and in the few years previous to me and in the years after there was always at least one and usually 2 or 3. Not 100% on the last few classes, but I have no reason to think otherwise.

That doesn't sound like much, but when you consider the low numbers of privates that apply its a sizeable amount. With the average amount of applicants being in and around 1,500, and I would guess usually less than 10 of those being pte's, it shows the recruiting boards are more than willing to take in suitable candidates.

But I think the point raised about them being completely different career paths is extremely valid. The analogy which concussion made with the garage is quite a good one. The end goal of a soldier is not to be an officer, no more than the end goal of an officer is to be head of the Dept. of Defence, its a different job, with different skills required.

Bullseye1

Is there a particular reason why an Engineer in the Engineering Corp can only obtain the maximum rank of Col. or has that changed. Many Engineers have went on to become Generals in the US army.

Yitzhak Rabin

Bullseye1 wrote: »

Is there a particular reason why an Engineer in the Engineering Corp can only obtain the maximum rank of Col. or has that changed. Many Engineers have went on to become Generals in the US army.

AFAIK, that applied because most of the engineers in the past were direct entrants, and as such, would only have done a six week shoot and salute course, so they couldn't really serve outside of the corps.

Not sure if its still the case as I know most of the officers of capt and below aren't DE, and some of the best ones I've seen have been engineers, in fact I know a number of them with selection done.

Delancey

Manic Moran wrote: »

Only Congress grants commissions. Or, more accurately, the Secretary of the Army on behalf of Congress advised by the Army G-1. I would be the first step in the recommendation process, it would have to go up the chain to D.C. I'm sure the guy (who was a SGT/E-5) will make a pretty good officer, but I just don't think he had the background and experience to merit skipping the commissioning courses.

To give you an idea, of the two direct commissions that I knew, one of them, commissioned in 2001, he had been around long enough to have been an NCO and tank gunner in Desert Storm. The other had also been a tanker in Desert Storm, and at that, a company commander. Resigned his commission shortly afterwards. Came back into the military back about 2008 as a SGT/E-5. We gave him his bars back just before we went to Afghanistan.

NTM

Is it true that people separating from the U.S. military can elect to re-join within 90 days and get to keep the rank they held when they first left ?

Manic Moran

Yes, particularly if they're changing from Active to Guard/Reserve or some such.

Just because you've been gone for a certain amount of time doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to start at square 1 either. If you've been gone, say, six years, you'll probably go back in at a rank lower than you had. eg SGT instead of SSG, but not 'recruit'

NTM

PeterIanStaker

Bullseye1 wrote: »

Is there a particular reason why an Engineer in the Engineering Corp can only obtain the maximum rank of Col. or has that changed. Many Engineers have went on to become Generals in the US army.

The head of the US Army's Corps of engineers is a 4 star General, however the position has been held by a Colonel in the past
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chief_of_Engineers

Delancey

Bullseye1 wrote: »

Is there a particular reason why an Engineer in the Engineering Corp can only obtain the maximum rank of Col. or has that changed. Many Engineers have went on to become Generals in the US army.

The head of the ' Manhattan Project ' was General Leslie Groves who was from the Corps of Engineers. Before he built the Atomic bomb he built the Pentagon.

tac foley

delancey42 wrote: »

The head of the ' Manhattan Project ' was General Leslie Groves who was from the Corps of Engineers. Before he built the Atomic bomb he built the Pentagon.

Last time I was there my guide told me that it was orginally intended to be round, but that the Army much preferred things to be done in straight lines.

His colleague went on to note that if it HAD been built in the round, it would look more like a target than an office block.

A week later his thoughts were made into fact - the attack on the Pentagon on 9/11.

tac

helimachoptor

Manic Moran wrote: »

If you've been in for quite a few years and proven an excellent NCO, you may be offered a direct commission. It's basically "Fill out this form, raise your right hand, and here are your lieutenant's bars". Rare, though, I've only ever met one or two direct commission officers. I've only ever had one person ask me for one, I denied it and told him to go to OCS.

NTM

Manic, what kind of promoting power do you have?

Edit: for enlisted i.e. can you promote a guy form corporal to sergeant if theres a skills gap in your unit or do you need approval from someone?

Manic Moran

helimachoptor wrote: »

Manic, what kind of promoting power do you have?

Edit: for enlisted i.e. can you promote a guy form corporal to sergeant if theres a skills gap in your unit or do you need approval from someone?

Not as a company commander. I can promote up to E-4, so the various grades of Private and Specialist in the junior ranks. I can also promote someone to Corporal, which is also an E-4, but that requires having a free Sergeant's slot to put him in. After that, NCOs are promoted by a board. There is a system of promotion points that are earned throughout a career, they vary from PT score through weapons qual to awards and medals earned and so on, plus subjective assessments by three people giving arbitrary 'marks'. The Board then also takes into account the recommendations of the commanders and senior NCOs. I also have the authority to withhold a soldier's packet from going to the board in the first place, so although I can't directly promote people, I can at least determine who is eligible for the positions.

NCO slots are very competetive, and high-scoring soldiers who meet the criteria, wherever they may be, must be offered the slot first. For example, let's say I have an open squad leader position in my unit in Yerington. I have an E-5 Sgt I think would be great at the role, but there is another cavalry E-5 looking for his E-6 down in Las Vegas who has more points, all other things being equal. He must be offered the position first. Should he decide that he doesn't want to drive seven hours each way to drill, and decline the slot, only then does my guy go forward and get his rocker. If a company commander could arbitrarily promote who he wanted, other soldiers from outside the unit wouldn't be given the same opportunities.

Similarly, I also have the authority to demote soldiers of grade E-4 and below. The authority for this goes up as grade increases, so some NCOs can be demoted by Battalion Commanders, more by Brigade commanders and so on.

NTM