The cost of Free Education.

XxMCRxBabyxX

Goesague wrote: »

Why isn't the grant sufficient? Because the schools take the easy way out and ask the parents for money, that's why. If the parents said no and told the schools to sue the minister for the money, which under the Constitution he the Minister is oblige to provide, the money would be found soon enough.

Because money is so easily accessible these days...

thesimpsons

with regard to school coats - a school can only insist you don't wear a different coat inside the school premises. If you wear a different coat to the school gates and then take it off, the school can't do anything about it.

Jo King

That is nonsense.

1. A school in the free education system can't legally insist on its own coat even in the school.

2. Do you seriously expect someone to leave their coat outside the gates of the school until they are going home at the end of the day?

3. Schools show no respect for the law in this area and are just as likely to try and discipline students who wear non uniform coats outside the school as in it.

Unless the parents are prepared to force the schools to stop their nonsense with uniforms the situation will continue, with money being wasted and childrens lives being made a misery.

smelltheglove

I thought a lot of people would have the same issue regards tot he coat. I went to a convent school and we had a certain coat we had to wear. One of thos 3/4 length heavy things. I was called back by teachers plenty of times when leaving class if they saw me with a different coat and the only time I ever got detention in school was for wearing a denim jacket and eyeliner. I actually thought it was a common thing.

thesimpsons

Jo King wrote: »

2. Do you seriously expect someone to leave their coat outside the gates of the school until they are going home at the end of the day?

Well, obviously you don't leave the coat outside, kids take the coat into school with them- just not wear it. I see loads of kids doing that every morning.

K.Flyer

Free education my A*#e, my son is starting 1st year secondary this year and all his books etc and uniform come in at approx 700.00euro. Then there will be the extras during the term and the requests for financial support.
When I went to school the school books were traded every year in the school hall, kept expences right down.
Now they want you buy school books with spaces on the pages for the answers, but not to write on these books, no, write the answers in the copy books so as to keep the books in good condition. Which is a total waste of time seeing as a lot of these school books are rarely used the following year.
What happened to protecting the rain forests and recycling...

smelltheglove

thesimpsons wrote: »

Well, obviously you don't leave the coat outside, kids take the coat into school with them- just not wear it. I see loads of kids doing that every morning.

Some schools don't even allow that, as I said above I was put in detention for carrying a denim jacket in my hand rather than the chunky school coat!

Mary Hairy

smelltheglove wrote: »

Some schools don't even allow that, as I said above I was put in detention for carrying a denim jacket in my hand rather than the chunky school coat!

What did your parents do about it? Nothing, I expect. Typical Irish parent. Let schools get away with blatant illegality. Why do schools force pupils to buy expensive clothing? What's in it for them?

smelltheglove

Each school will issue a rule book, the rule book states entry into the school accepts all rules. They basically say to you, here are our rules, if you dont like them dont send your child here.

Having said that, a reporter contacted me through this thread and has since been in contact with my mother and is apparently going to do a story with the Irish Examiner based on the crazy costs there are with school children. There are many many schools that have rules like this, maybe its just only me that has mentioned them, My brother is not going to the same school as I did, I went to a convent for girls, he is attending a school around 15 miles away so it seems to me that this sort of rule is common practice in secondary schools.

XxMCRxBabyxX

Mary Hairy wrote: »

What did your parents do about it? Nothing, I expect. Typical Irish parent. Let schools get away with blatant illegality. Why do schools force pupils to buy expensive clothing? What's in it for them?

Exactly what is the law that is being broken?

Nevyn

I also went to convent school and you would get punishment work, detention and up to suspedned for not wearing the school coat and if you were seen in a coat which wasn't the school coat traveling to and from the school you could be punished.

While in uniform you are told you repasent the school and being in partial uniform is not aceceptable and being doing a whole range of things while in school uniforum but off the school grounds and and out of school time could still be considered breaking the school rules.

I know of someone who was suspended for being seen smoking in school uniform.

amacachi

XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »

And why is it whenever fees are mentioned people seem to conveniently forget that if the plans to introduce fees come in, a "loan pay back" system of some form will be introduces as well. I.e. We won't pay the fees up front but rather will pay them off when we are working. There is no way people will just be expected to pay these fees upfront

Would you trust any government in this country to implement something like that properly? I wouldn't mind paying fees later on.

XxMCRxBabyxX

amacachi wrote: »

Would you trust any government in this country to implement something like that properly? I wouldn't mind paying fees later on.

Yes i would actually. It's easily done.

I also don't mind paying fees if it can better my education

Mary Hairy

XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »

Exactly what is the law that is being broken?

The school is in receipt of funding from the Dept of Education. One of the conditions of the funding is that the school cannot force a uniform on pupils. Using rules books and asking them to be signed is a scam. They are signed under duress and so are not binding. Schools are there to teach, not to go telling people what to wear. Why parents put up with their nonsense is a mystery to me.
Are schools or rather senior figure associated with them, getting commission from the retailer or manufacturer or both?

metrovelvet

If parents collectively refused to accept things, things would change.

As for the coat. What a crock. I think I would have ended up expelled.

thesimpsons

a school can rant and rave, threaten detention and all manner of things, but it can't enforce any of it if you are wearing uniform items outside of the school grounds on way to or from school, just hanging around in the evening or even if you wanted to wear your uniform on the weekend. So long as you are not officially representing the school, and the school doesn't own the clothes, they are your property - as told to me by principal of a very large boys school who tries to threaten all the time but knows it can't do anything about it. A school who suspends pupil for wearing uniform outside of hours but while smoking stands on a very thin line should the parents decide to complain. All the principals know this but they'll still try pretend to pupils and parents that they can, and parents rarely complain about this so schools can keep doing it.

littlebug

This is the first year that I've really noticed the cost (2nd class and senior infants)... nearly 200 spent already and we haven't even got uniforms yet I don't know if I have less money than last year or if everything is dearer. The 2nd class books seemed ridiculously expensive.

top girl

Hi all. There are a lot of sites now where you can purchase second hand books for both primary and secondary. I Have been using them quite a lot recently and found I saved quite a bit of money. As for the school fees they are just crazy. Our primary is 25 euro and secondary want 90 euro per child. I hate having to pay these especially the secondary one as they never have to contact you. At least with the primary they do photocopy lots of items for the child.

Jo King

top girl wrote: »

I hate having to pay these especially the secondary one as they never have to contact you. At least with the primary they do photocopy lots of items for the child.

You don't have to pay. They have no right to money from you. Tell them to sod off when they ask for money.

smelltheglove

Speaking of books and fees, when the fees were due for my daughter I didnt have the cash free, we had a week to pay €80 fee but with my husband after being let go I didnt have the spare cash that week so I called the school to tell them I didnt have it available to pay on time. They were good enough, asked would I pay 20 and then pay the rest in September which I agreed to but they mentioned that the free book scheme was back, they asked would my daughter be eligible which I assumed she was and took her name saying they would arrange it, only I have heard nothing back so I dont know am I to go off and get her books, no point in getting them if the school is getting them under a grant, does anyone know anymore about this scheme?

byhookorbycrook

Mary Hairy wrote: »

The school is in receipt of funding from the Dept of Education. One of the conditions of the funding is that the school cannot force a uniform on pupils. Using rules books and asking them to be signed is a scam. They are signed under duress and so are not binding. Schools are there to teach, not to go telling people what to wear. Why parents put up with their nonsense is a mystery to me.
Are schools or rather senior figure associated with them, getting commission from the retailer or manufacturer or both?

Uniforms are usually agreed with the parent body, rules are agreed, if people don't like the rules then it is up to them to get them changed.

byhookorbycrook

Jo King wrote: »

You don't have to pay. They have no right to money from you. Tell them to sod off when they ask for money.

The less people pay, the more expensive it becomes for those who do. Schools HATE asking for this money. Some people seem to think that schools look for money to fund some mysterious benefits for the teachers. If schools get money, it is spent on the pupils and on the running of the school. I agree the DES is getting off the hook by all the fundraising schools and parents do, but would you have your child in a school without heat/light etc?

LegacyUser

When my son was 4 and I was looking at primary schools for him, our nearest school was deemed 'disadvantaged' by the dept of education. At that time, I had no experience of schools in Dublin (my last experience being when I myself went to school!) so I foolishly believed the 'disadvantaged' tag was something to do with the academic levels in the school. So I (foolishly) decided not to send him there, but to another school, a bit further away.

Roll on a few years and here I am paying just under 200e for his 3rd class school books, over 150 for his new uniform (all crested jumper/sweathshirt and tshirt - HAVE to wear black shoes with the trousers & black runners with the tracksuit - if he wears black runners on the days he's wearing trousers, we get a note home!). I also have to pay 160euro on the first day back to school - 50 for (compulsory??) swimming lessons and 110 for photocopying etc....

I was chatting to a few of my neighbours last week, one of who's sons goes to the local 'disadvantaged' school. She gave him 50euro on the last day of school and received all his school books for 3rd class. Crests are 5euro in the school, and you can buy the navy & grey uniform wherever you like. Fees on the 1st of september are 20euro. They also have an afterschool service until 6pm monday to friday for FREE!!! We have an afterschool service til 4pm 3 days a week (no use to most people) for 20euro per day. They also have interactive white boards in every classroom. WE, on the other hand, have been fundraising for our 3rd interactive white board which is only for 6th class kids.

From what I can see, the schools deemed 'disadvantaged' get a huge amount of government support (and rightly so), while those deemed not so disadvantaged, get zilch.

Surely this level of support could be spread across more schools more evenly?????

Jo King

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

The less people pay, the more expensive it becomes for those who do. Schools HATE asking for this money. Some people seem to think that schools look for money to fund some mysterious benefits for the teachers. If schools get money, it is spent on the pupils and on the running of the school. I agree the DES is getting off the hook by all the fundraising schools and parents do, but would you have your child in a school without heat/light etc?

A school can't open without heat or light. It is a breach of the Health and Safety Act. The schools should spend the grant money and when it is gone, close up! That is what happens in every other walk of life. No resources provided, no work. What would happen in your local bank branch if the staff were told to hand up money to pay for the central heating and toilet paper? The fuel for the government jet for a month would heat every school in the country.

XxMCRxBabyxX

Jo King wrote: »

A school can't open without heat or light. It is a breach of the Health and Safety Act. The schools should spend the grant money and when it is gone, close up! That is what happens in every other walk of life. No resources provided, no work. What would happen in your local bank branch if the staff were told to hand up money to pay for the central heating and toilet paper? The fuel for the government jet for a month would heat every school in the country.

And I repeat again? What about the children who then lose their education becaus ethe schools have to close down?

byhookorbycrook

In no other country in the world do you have to have so much fundraising to keeps schools going. If parents aren't hit with a voluntary contribution, they get caught for the cake sale/sponsored this and that. Schools collect and count thousands of tokens so they can have sports stuff or computers. I know in many schools that the computers there are ones that factories and offices have thrown out. I remember a guy from the DES was in our school about 4 yrs back and got very thick that whatever software he had was not running on our computers. I had an American student in last term and she wanted to know where the computer lab was and why I was crawling over desks to plug in stuff("Does the IT techie not do that?" ) We have aquatics as part of our curriculum yet parents have to pay for bus, hire of the pool and instructors. Also suggested on the curriclum is camping!?!

Nevyn

smelltheglove wrote: »

Speaking of books and fees, when the fees were due for my daughter I didnt have the cash free, we had a week to pay €80 fee but with my husband after being let go I didnt have the spare cash that week so I called the school to tell them I didnt have it available to pay on time. They were good enough, asked would I pay 20 and then pay the rest in September which I agreed to but they mentioned that the free book scheme was back, they asked would my daughter be eligible which I assumed she was and took her name saying they would arrange it, only I have heard nothing back so I dont know am I to go off and get her books, no point in getting them if the school is getting them under a grant, does anyone know anymore about this scheme?

You need to have a full medical card to be in school book rental scheme.
The card is presented to the school with the forum you fill out and the nominal amount you have to pay. There is a cut of time for when applications will no longer be accepted.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/education/primary-and-post-primary-education/educational-supports/school_books_scheme

Nevyn

XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »

And I repeat again? What about the children who then lose their education becaus ethe schools have to close down?

The parents are the primary educators of children, says so in the constitution.
If closing the schools down and running home schooling collectives is an option while its sorted out.

There are parents who home school and who collectively home school their kids each parent taking turns.

storm2811

unregistered wrote: »

Roll on a few years and here I am paying just under 200e for his 3rd class school books, over 150 for his new uniform (all crested jumper/sweathshirt and tshirt - HAVE to wear black shoes with the trousers & black runners with the tracksuit - if he wears black runners on the days he's wearing trousers, we get a note home!). I also have to pay 160euro on the first day back to school - 50 for (compulsory??) swimming lessons and 110 for photocopying etc....

I was chatting to a few of my neighbours last week, one of who's sons goes to the local 'disadvantaged' school. She gave him 50euro on the last day of school and received all his school books for 3rd class. Crests are 5euro in the school, and you can buy the navy & grey uniform wherever you like. Fees on the 1st of september are 20euro. They also have an afterschool service until 6pm monday to friday for FREE!!! We have an afterschool service til 4pm 3 days a week (no use to most people) for 20euro per day. They also have interactive white boards in every classroom. WE, on the other hand, have been fundraising for our 3rd interactive white board which is only for 6th class kids.

Those prices are mad!
My little brother who's going into 6th class has only had to pay €15 every year for photo copying and art supplies etc.
The swimming lessons were €70 but last year he said he didn't want to go anymore and they were fine with that,I doubt it's compulsory,I'd talk to the principal about it.

You could just move him to the other school that your neighbours children are in?

I don't understand why some schools are so specific with their uniforms when other schools down the road have uniforms that you can buy anywhere for €50.

I was watching something the other day about schools in France,they get their copies,pencils,pens etc supplied to them in the school and the books are usually supplied aswell for a small fee,most don't have uniforms either!

I was talking to my relatives in Belgium about their schools there and they have pretty much the same system,my aunt pays something like €60 a year for each child and that's for everything for the entire year!

LegacyUser

I agree that his school costs are extortionate this year. It's a normal, run of the mill school on the northside of dublin!!!

I did think of moving him last year, but he's going into third class now so I'll stick with it until he finishes up - pretty disrupting for him I'd imagine, so I'll stick with this school for now.

'You need to have a full medical card to be in school book rental scheme.
The card is presented to the school with the forum you fill out and the nominal amount you have to pay. There is a cut of time for when applications will no longer be accepted.'

That's all well and good, but the school has to be deemed disadvantaged by the Dept of Ed....and my sons isn't...:-(