The cost of Free Education.

Nevyn

Last year the primary school wanted the money for books and the fees all in by the end of June, this year they said it was to be in by the end of may and there was 3 weeks notice. When I queried I was told sure don't the clever parents just use the school's saving club to save for the books money over the year so it's not such a big deal.

The books are bought in bulk with the other primary school in the area and not one cent gets passed on to the parents in a discount.

So they did not get the money for to sit in an account for 3 months earning intrest, it was paid 1st of September and we shopped around to get the books ourselves and as many second hand as possible.

mariaalice

I know this is an old thread but i have to vent!!!!!

Just after coming back from the book shop and i have spent 90 on past papers and two book for history and she still needs another book!

So so far this year..going in to sixth year it has been 70 for photycopying and reports...120 for after school study...90 for some books and past papers...50 for the sixth year jumper:mad:

thesimpsons

if you consider that school jumper will get approx 10 hrs wear a day by 5 days for the rest of the school year, 50e doesn't actually seem that expensive. I'm certainly glad my kids wear uniform cos if you work it out over the cost of the school year, its relatively good value in my opinion. Sorry, but after school study is an optional extra - not essential. I've got a leaving cert plus a junior cert this year so apart from the past papers, I've had it fairly cheap for them. Nxt year though I'll have full college costs, full 5th year books costs and a 1st year with whole new uniform and book costs.

Nevyn

And this friday we got a forum home for personal injury insurance.
Yes it's less then a tenner and there are two types one which cover to and from school, in school and all school outings and one that cover the child 24/7 12 months of the year.

Due to a child falling in the play ground breaking a leg and a lot of their grown up teeth when they face planted the tarmac, the schools rating soared after the pay out and they can't afford to have a general comprehensive for all the kids. So the parents are being told to insure their kids themselves in a group policy.

SerialComplaint

Thaedydal wrote: »

And this friday we got a forum home for personal injury insurance.
Yes it's less then a tenner and there are two types one which cover to and from school, in school and all school outings and one that cover the child 24/7 12 months of the year.

Due to a child falling in the play ground breaking a leg and a lot of their grown up teeth when they face planted the tarmac, the schools rating soared after the pay out and they can't afford to have a general comprehensive for all the kids. So the parents are being told to insure their kids themselves in a group policy.

Is this compulsory or optional? Kids aren't insured when out on the street, so I don't see an absolute requirement for this kind of insurance in school.

Fittle

Thaedydal wrote: »

And this friday we got a forum home for personal injury insurance.
Yes it's less then a tenner and there are two types one which cover to and from school, in school and all school outings and one that cover the child 24/7 12 months of the year.

Due to a child falling in the play ground breaking a leg and a lot of their grown up teeth when they face planted the tarmac, the schools rating soared after the pay out and they can't afford to have a general comprehensive for all the kids. So the parents are being told to insure their kids themselves in a group policy.

We've had this from the start - my son is in third class now, and we always get this 8euro per year, form home.

I always pay it and thankfully, have never had to avail of the insurance.

But again, 8euro per child x almost 400 kids = over three thousand euro to the insurance company.

In my own sons class, in the past four years, there has been one child who needed stitches and his mum availed of this insurance (the medical costs were about 1,000 because he needed some cosmetic surgery). I always thought that children were automatically insured whilst on the school grounds (by the dept of ed) so whilst its 'only' eight euro per child, and I'm not complaining that I'm paying it, it seems like an added extra to me.

OS119

thesimpsons wrote: »

if you consider that school jumper will get approx 10 hrs wear a day by 5 days for the rest of the school year, 50e doesn't actually seem that expensive. I'm certainly glad my kids wear uniform cos if you work it out over the cost of the school year, its relatively good value in my opinion.

no, €50 on a jumper isn't good value, because you can buy the same jumper - or one that does the same job, and looks pretty similar - for 1/5th of that in Tesco or Pennies.

the jumper won't last as long, but by the time it starts looking a bid tired you'd need to replace it with a bigger one anyway.

school uniform is brilliant - there's no visible economic/fashionista difference between the kids, it does foster a cameraderie, and it saves time in the morning - that however does not mean that parents should be required to purchace uniform for ridiculous prices from specific stores that (allegedly) are giving kickbacks to the school authorities with your money.

i'm 36, i've earnt a very good living my whole working life, and i've never paid €50 for a jumper - indeed i don't think i've ever spent €25 on a jumper. i'm certainly not going to spend that kind on money on a jumper thats going to get ink and lunch on it, get pulled in the playground, sat on in the school field, used as a goal post, spend every weekend stuffed at the bottom of a school bag, and then be completely outgrown in a year!

SerialComplaint

Fittle wrote: »

We've had this from the start - my son is in third class now, and we always get this 8euro per year, form home.

I always pay it and thankfully, have never had to avail of the insurance.

But again, 8euro per child x almost 400 kids = over three thousand euro to the insurance company.

In my own sons class, in the past four years, there has been one child who needed stitches and his mum availed of this insurance (the medical costs were about 1,000 because he needed some cosmetic surgery). I always thought that children were automatically insured whilst on the school grounds (by the dept of ed) so whilst its 'only' eight euro per child, and I'm not complaining that I'm paying it, it seems like an added extra to me.

But why would you want insurance for when the child is in school? You don't have seperate insurance for when he is playing in your garden, or on the road? So why when in school?

If you have medical insurance (VHI/Quinn etc), this covers anything that happens in school anyway. If you don't have medical insurance, you'll get treated in the public health system at minimal cost (though maybe with some delays).

deisemum

I think the 24 hour insurance is very good value if you don't have other insurance when you see the cost of a trip to A&E.

Also the school gets 30% of the premium back if they submit the applications online so it's in the school's interest to encourage parents to take out this policy.

thesimpsons

OS119 wrote: »

i'm 36, i've earnt a very good living my whole working life, and i've never paid €50 for a jumper - indeed i don't think i've ever spent €25 on a jumper. i'm certainly not going to spend that kind on money on a jumper thats going to get ink and lunch on it, get pulled in the playground, sat on in the school field, used as a goal post, spend every weekend stuffed at the bottom of a school bag, and then be completely outgrown in a year!

I've probably never spent 50e on a jumper for myself either but i've also never worn the same jumper for 5 days every week for 10 hrs. Then again, my kids have often gotten 2 years out of a jumper or have being able to pass it on to sibling or cousin without it looking shabby or too worn, don't use it as a goalpost and generally take off uniforms when they come home. Ours are a wool/arcylic mix with crest for 45e - sounds like you not getting as good value for your 50e.

We pay the 24hour insurance and have had cause to use it twice. daughter broke front teeth on holidays in europe and needed them capped. the insurance has held an open file on the claim so when she gets new caps in the future they'l be covered. Also, its looking like she'll need braces as a result of teeth getting pushed in the fall so they will be covered as well. not bad for 12e. schools shoudl really offer the 12e one as standard - 24hour/365 days a year.

Nevyn

SerialComplaint wrote: »

But why would you want insurance for when the child is in school? You don't have seperate insurance for when he is playing in your garden, or on the road? So why when in school?

If you have medical insurance (VHI/Quinn etc), this covers anything that happens in school anyway. If you don't have medical insurance, you'll get treated in the public health system at minimal cost (though maybe with some delays).

Because due to the fact there are so many kids clustered together in school there is a higher risk of injury due to play acting or just plain accidents.

Some delays is far from ideal when you are dealing with kids.

Yes it is 'voluntary' but it used to be every school had it's own insurance

mariaalice

I think the school insurance is a good thing and it is reasonably good value....i also am very supportive of school uniforms and of schools being stricked about kids wearing them, i think a good uniform policy sets the tone of the school.

What i don't like is that in my daughters school the sixth years have a different school jumper which they will only use for one year.

The problem with the school books particularly for secondary school is that there dose not appear to be any guide lines form the schools to the teachers re the cost of the books they are choosing for the subject e.g. my daughter has four history books for the higher leaving cert course two on Europe history and two on Irish history which cost nearly 90 euros alone!!!! she had to get two in fifth year and two in sixth year....this should not be allowed.

I think teachers should be given a guide that should go something like this....one book and one workbook only for each subject and the teacher should be given a maxim price for each book he/or she proscribes.

Having said that i am very supportive of the school as i think my daughter is getting an excellent education.

dan_d

we'llallhavetea wrote: »

well tbh, they shouldn't be mandatory, some kids don't want to learn to swim.

As someone who took lifeguarding lessons (through a private group) and qualified a number of years ago, I think everyone should have basic knowledge of swimming.It's one of the most fundamental skills a child should learn. Those of my friends who cannot swim find themselves missing out on so much...and it can save lives. First aid can be taught in a classroom, if it's being taught.

Irrelevant to the topic anyway. I imagine that schools have insurance because a large number of parents have in the past, charged medical bills to the school after a child falls in the playground??......Useful though.

Davidth88

Ill be honest , I got the form through for insurance on Friday . My immediate reaction was , ' you mean the school does not have insurance then ?'

Is the implication that the school does not have 3rd party insurance , for example if I was collecting my little one and was hit by a tile falling on my head it would be tough ?

Anyway , I will be paying it , because just my luck if I didn't something will happen.

As for school uniforms, they should allow you to buy generic uniforms , not insist on some fancy uniform you can only buy in Brown Thomas or similar at stupid prices.

OS119

mariaalice wrote: »

...The problem with the school books particularly for secondary school is that there dose not appear to be any guide lines form the schools to the teachers re the cost of the books they are choosing for the subject e.g. my daughter has four history books for the higher leaving cert course two on Europe history and two on Irish history which cost nearly 90 euros alone!!!! she had to get two in fifth year and two in sixth year....this should not be allowed.

I think teachers should be given a guide that should go something like this....one book and one workbook only for each subject and the teacher should be given a maxim price for each book he/or she proscribes....

the problem is that a lot of very good academic textbooks cost that kind of money - if you want access to the best reseach in a particular field then you need to pay for that research to continue. the only way the prices of such books will come down is if a much larger print run in enabled - and that means a standardisation of the curriculum accross the whole state sector.

the down side of that, though not one i imagine most parents will give a toss about when faced with paying €90 a text book, is that instead of hundreds of academics (and their PhD and Masters students) all producing serious research every year and putting it into textbooks, you'd only have a score or so such teams because there'd only be one curriculum to write for, rather than hundreds.

that would then have a shocking impact on the university sector - and the potential education available to degree level students would suffer.

i'm not sure there is a good answer...

wolfpawnat

My school made you buy the uniform through the school. So I can imagine they mark up they had! You had to get everything from the shirt to a blazer AND a jacket. No Jackets other than the navy one given would do! Wasnt even warm!!!! They would do inspections and were strick if you didnt adhere to them! Came to about £200 for me in 1999.

4th Year was maditory, and we weren't given anything great to do for the whole year!

"Voluntary Contributions" were not very voluntary! They would plague you with letters once or twice a month til you paid and it was over £100 per child!

You had to pay for a bus to take us to our sports field and the only sport we played was hockey so parents had to buy their daughters hockey sticks! And if you played on the school hockey team, you had to buy the skirt!

It all adds up and they dont care how many kids you have or financial troubles you have!

Jo King

wolfpawnat wrote: »

"Voluntary Contributions" were not very voluntary! They would plague you with letters once or twice a month til you paid and it was over £100 per child!

Any request for a voluntary contribution should be refused in writing in a letter which should also state that any attempt to intimidate you by repeated requests or identifying you publicly as a person who had not paid will lead to legal action.

thesimpsons

Jo King wrote: »

Any request for a voluntary contribution should be refused in writing in a letter which should also state that any attempt to intimidate you by repeated requests or identifying you publicly as a person who had not paid will lead to legal action.

unfortunately some schools are experts at getting to parents through the kids - handing out notes about missing vol contribs to kids saying "tell your parents they haven't paid yet" or handing out the receipts to kids so its obvious who didn't pay is totally wrong. Its not the kids fault parents don't or can't or won't pay. No one wants their kids being embarrassed in school. Repeated requests that the school doesn't participate in this type of behaviour are just ignored.

Jo King

thesimpsons wrote: »

unfortunately some schools are experts at getting to parents through the kids - handing out notes about missing vol contribs to kids saying "tell your parents they haven't paid yet" or handing out the receipts to kids so its obvious who didn't pay is totally wrong. Its not the kids fault parents don't or can't or won't pay. No one wants their kids being embarrassed in school. Repeated requests that the school doesn't participate in this type of behaviour are just ignored.

The requests should be in writing. If that doesn't work, a solicitors letter should be next. A statement should also be made to the Guards.

irish sea

This is pretty shocking reading! After 14 years in London I am returning to Dublin with my two primary school aged children in October and am now v worried! Firstly I can’t believe the curriculum isn’t standardised and therefore all the books required are not standardised. What if the school decides they want to teach creationism or decide not to teach world war II, who decides what is taught?

I think I understand the need for the voluntary contribution (though I don’t agree with it), perhaps they need to change the name and drop the ‘voluntary’ label as it doesn’t sound like it’s optional for most parents.

I agree with school uniforms for all the reasons already stated. Most state schools in England go down the tesco/iron on school badge route. I would hate to think I am buying a uniform and a kick-back was going to the school or worse, an individual, I hate all that underhand stuff.

Thanks for all the comments though, it’s given me a few questions to ask the schools I’ll be contacting to see who has available school places.

Irish Sea

Nevyn

The curriculum is standardised and teachers have to submit lesson plans,
but there is a range of books form 3/4 different publishers which are approved for use.

crabfeet

irish sea wrote: »

This is pretty shocking reading! After 14 years in London I am returning to Dublin with my two primary school aged children in October and am now v worried! Firstly I can’t believe the curriculum isn’t standardised and therefore all the books required are not standardised. What if the school decides they want to teach creationism or decide not to teach world war II, who decides what is taught?

The school Patron decides what is taught. An attempt to standardise the curriculum was found to be unconstitutional.

irish sea wrote: »

I think I understand the need for the voluntary contribution (though I don’t agree with it), perhaps they need to change the name and drop the ‘voluntary’ label as it doesn’t sound like it’s optional for most parents.

The contribution is voluntary. I got a "reminder" from my son. I went to the school and asked to see the principal. I asked if my sons teacher was properly qualified. I asked had he checked her qualifications personally. I then asked why she did not undersatnd a simple English word. She seemed puzzled. I asked what part of "voluntary" does she not understand? She seemed taken aback. I asked if by handing out reminders that she was implying that I was under a legal obligation to pay and was refusing to do so? She denied this and said it must be a mistake. I asked how it could be a mistake. That teacher knew full well that I was refusing to pay a voluntary contribution and she was attempting to humiliate my son in an effort to black mail me.

irish sea wrote: »

I agree with school uniforms for all the reasons already stated. Most state schools in England go down the tesco/iron on school badge route. I would hate to think I am buying a uniform and a kick-back was going to the school or worse, an individual, I hate all that underhand stuff.

[/QUOTE]

I hate uniforms and I do not pay over the odds for crests or other rubbish.

taram

OS119 wrote: »

the problem is that a lot of very good academic textbooks cost that kind of money - if you want access to the best reseach in a particular field then you need to pay for that research to continue. the only way the prices of such books will come down is if a much larger print run in enabled - and that means a standardisation of the curriculum accross the whole state sector.

the down side of that, though not one i imagine most parents will give a toss about when faced with paying €90 a text book, is that instead of hundreds of academics (and their PhD and Masters students) all producing serious research every year and putting it into textbooks, you'd only have a score or so such teams because there'd only be one curriculum to write for, rather than hundreds.

that would then have a shocking impact on the university sector - and the potential education available to degree level students would suffer.

i'm not sure there is a good answer...

I doubt that many academics write the books for schools, they are often rehashed from previous texts: my aunts went to the same school as me (15 and 10 years older) and my geography book was by the same guy, almost identical contents, very similar layout. And some subjects such as Biology are so basic compared to university textbooks a lot of undergrad students could write one out accurately using their basic undergraduate knowledge. They definitely aren't the most up to date, my biology textbook spoke about things I did in first year uni like it was space age, and it was a new edition for my 6th year!

Ayla

crabfeet wrote: »

The contribution is voluntary. I got a "reminder" from my son. I went to the school and asked to see the principal. I asked if my sons teacher was properly qualified. I asked had he checked her qualifications personally. I then asked why she did not undersatnd a simple English word. She seemed puzzled. I asked what part of "voluntary" does she not understand? She seemed taken aback. I asked if by handing out reminders that she was implying that I was under a legal obligation to pay and was refusing to do so? She denied this and said it must be a mistake. I asked how it could be a mistake. That teacher knew full well that I was refusing to pay a voluntary contribution and she was attempting to humiliate my son in an effort to black mail me.

Good for you - LOVE IT!

Now, I know most schools are strapped for cash, but soliciting for money through the kids is shameful. This absolutely should not be tolerated by parents, and if more folks reacted like crabfeet it wouldn't go on for long.

There *are* other ways to raise funds, it just takes more work & thought to generate ideas & carry out fundraisers.

wolfpawnat

Ayla wrote: »

Good for you - LOVE IT!

Now, I know most schools are strapped for cash, but soliciting for money through the kids is shameful. This absolutely should not be tolerated by parents, and if more folks reacted like crabfeet it wouldn't go on for long.

There *are* other ways to raise funds, it just takes more work & thought to generate ideas & carry out fundraisers.

Agreed, there are many fun ways, no uniform days, €2 a child, school of about 300 - €600 without costing even a penny on photocopying! Say it to one class and the whole school will have it by lunch. Or if the schools do not want it to turn into a fashion show day, hoodie and jeans day, sports jersey day. I know I would have went to school willingly that day!

thesimpsons

Ayla wrote: »

There *are* other ways to raise funds, it just takes more work & thought to generate ideas & carry out fundraisers.

true but unfortunately even with the best ideas in the world if you can't get parents to volunteer their time its almost impossible to run an effective fundraiser. School of 350 and the most we would get to help at a cake sale, bag packing, coffee morning, fashion show, quiz, etc would be the same 10/15 parents the whole time. Whether we run them mornings, evening or weekends it doesn't matter - too many people don't want to help out.

Even with fun non-uniform days the kids will wear the colours to school but "forget" the money - though they will often stop in the shop on the way home and suddenly "find" money

Ayla

thesimpsons wrote: »

... too many people don't want to help out...

And that there is the crux of the problem...it's human nature to gripe & complain behind closed doors, but few will actually care enough to do something about it. Whether it be actively fighting the issue like crabfeet did, making darn sure the kids hand in their donations on "fun days," or volunteering time & energy by fundraising.

If parent's can't afford monetary donations, then they sure should find another way of helping out. Can't have the cake & eat it too...

SerialComplaint

Ayla wrote: »

Can't have the cake & eat it too...

There is very little cake around these days (except maybe at the cake sale fundraiser). Schools should not be dependant on fundraising for basic services. We need to keep this in mind.

Where the school does request voluntary contributions, they should be publishing accounts to show exactly where the money goes to.

crabfeet

Why should parents have to get involved in findraising. I do my fundraising by working and paying taxes. Why should I have to pay twice for the same service?
Article 42.4 of the Constitution.
"The State shall provide for free primary education and shall endeavour to supplement and give reasonable aid to private and corporate educational initiative, and, when the public good requires it, provide other educational facilities or institutions with due regard, however, for the rights of parents, especially in the matter of religious and moral formation."

Free means you do not pay. Does anybody in any other occupation fundraise just to do their job. Do librarians in Public Libraries go fundraising to pay for heating, cleaning etc?
My son now carriews a letter with him to school which he is to give to any teacher who looks for money from him, either directly or indirectly. It warns them of the consequences. He has been shown my receipts for taxes and knows that the money has been paid. He knows also that I am not going to pay twice and I am not going to tolerate any attempt to pressurise me into doing so.

thesimpsons

ya we all know about the free education and free public healthcare we are all paying for through our taxes but guess what, this little country just doesn't deliver. While I may or may not be able to afford the voluntary contributions I'm happy to help fundraise to provide the things in schools and hospitals that me, you, my kids and your kids might all benefit from. I'd love not to have to fundraise for school equipment, hospital scanners, play equipment but they aren't going to happen without people helping out. Other occupations don't fundraise because companies can and do just close down if they don't have the funds to keep going because their equipment is too old. Schools can't just close down, they have to keep plodding along with substandard equip. I also help out with fundraising and volunteer work to show my kids that you need to put something back into the community. Working and paying your taxes is not fundraising - thats just doing your legal duty.