Lead Toxicity and Exposure concerns

4gun

as for the topic of water contamination ..just how soluble is lead? it last for hundreds of years in pipes and on roofs...lead in its metalic form is generally safe ...from what I've read over the years including fishin with lead shot is that water fowl pick it up instead of grit and this is how it come into the bird food chain ..
on the fishind side how many lads used to crimp the shot on to the line with their teeth?
If it waas just me ...then it explains alot...all though Tackleberry ...I do have FIVE very healthy children..:p

Dusty87

4gun wrote: »

on the fishind side how many lads used to crimp the shot on to the line with their teeth?

Never thought of that but me for one, for over ten years, and still do.
Although i did bring my leathermans on, i think, all of 2 occasions

Spannerman7

Sorry for the long text, the below is taken from the Alzheimers Society's website, I do a lot of brewing (I have a 100ltr brewery at home and intend to bring it further) and looked into this but the myth was debunked years ago and is not an issue, there are certain precautions when using it and beer has a ph of 4.2, never put caustic and alu together.

Spannerman


Aluminium and Alzheimer's disease

A number of environmental factors have been put forward as possible contributory causes of Alzheimer's disease in some people. Among these is aluminium. There is circumstantial evidence linking this metal with Alzheimer's disease, but no causal relationship has yet been proved. As evidence for other causes continues to grow, a possible link with aluminium seems increasingly unlikely. This factsheet looks at the circumstantial evidence and current medical and scientific views.
Causes of Alzheimer's disease

Researchers believe that in the majority of those affected, Alzheimer's disease results from a combination of different risk factors rather than one single cause. Such factors, which vary from person to person, may include age, genetic predisposition, other diseases or environmental agents.
The chief symptoms of Alzheimer's disease are progressive decline of memory and other higher mental functions. These changes are associated with the loss of brain cells and the development of two kinds of microscopic damage in the brain known as 'plaques' and 'tangles'.
Plaques consist of an abnormal deposit of a particular protein called beta amyloid between the brain cells. Tangles occur within cells, and are formed from abnormal thread-like deposits of a protein called tau, which is normally part of the cell's 'skeleton'.
(For more information about causes of Alzheimer's disease see Factsheet 450, Am I at risk of developing Alzheimer's disease?, and Factsheet 405, Genetics and dementia.)
Evidence linking aluminium and Alzheimer's disease


The hypothesis that there is a link between aluminium and Alzheimer's disease was first put forward in the 1960s (Terry and Pena 1965, Klatzo et al 1965). Since then, researchers have claimed a number of other circumstantial links between aluminium and Alzheimer's disease, as follows:

• Aluminium has been shown to be associated both with plaques and with tangles in the brains of people with Alzheimer's disease (Crapper et al 1976). However, the presence of aluminium does not mean that the aluminium was the causal factor − it is more likely to be a harmless secondary association.
• Some have claimed that people with Alzheimer's disease have a higher than average level of aluminium in their brains. However, other studies find no difference between the overall amount of aluminium in the brains of people with Alzheimer's and the amount in normal brains (Trapp et al 1978).
• Studies of other sources of aluminium, such as tea, antacid medications and antiperspirants have also failed to show a positive association with Alzheimer's disease (Flaten and Odegård 1988).
• People with kidney failure are unable to excrete aluminium, and yet they frequently have to be treated with compounds that contain aluminium. Aluminium accumulates in nerve cells that are particularly vulnerable in Alzheimer's disease. However, even after years of high exposure to aluminium, patients with kidney failure are no more likely to develop dementia or the hallmark pathological changes of Alzheimer's disease (Netter et al 1990).
• Treatment with desferrioxamine (DFO), a drug which binds aluminium and removes it from the body, also has a major effect on iron stores in the body. Therefore the effects of DFO may have nothing to do with aluminium (Gomez et al 1998).
• There have been many experimental studies on animals and on isolated cells showing that aluminium has toxic effects on the nervous system, but in almost all cases the doses of aluminium used were much higher than those occurring naturally in tissues (Gitelman 1988).

Feargal as Luimneach

Dusty87 wrote: »

Ah yes another great comparison, raptors and humans.;):rolleyes:

I was making a point about raptors. I wasn't making any comment on lead poisoning in humans. Lead shot should be banned because it is toxic to apex predators such as raptors.

Feargal as Luimneach

Dusty87 wrote: »

Thats bullsh1t. I know a man eating game, rabbits, pigeon all his life and never a problem with him. He's 78:eek:
Thats the scaremongering they're doing in England, (less buyers of game, less demand, less be shot)
No laws here about lead shot
Dont mind all that talk Tack,

Go off and eat 150 grms of lead and get back to us to see how you get on.!

Feargal as Luimneach

Sparks wrote: »

About raptors who have far higher exposure levels and are a completely different species from primates...


Actually, adults will excrete 99% of the lead they're exposed to after a few weeks. Children less so, which is why lead-based paint on toys is so much of a problem.
But mostly, you can't absorb the lead except when it's in gaseous or particulate form. The sole exception was the tetrahydl lead they had in leaded petrol (which is why it was banned), you could absorb that through the skin. As shooters, we have a major source of exposure, but it's not eating game; it's being at the breech end of the rifle. The propellant vapourises and atomises lead off the bullets and inside of the rifle barrel, and we're exposed on opening the breech and/or cleaning the rifle, or in enclosed ranges. But washing your hands and wrists in cold water negates that for the most part (the lead particulates settle on your forearms and work their way down to the hands where they're transferred to food and ingested; washing with cold water sluices them away safely). Hot water opens the pores and you risk exposure that way, so cold water only. That's the advice we've been given for decades and it protects you from the vast majority of the exposure, and studies have shown this.

And for pistol shooters, change your shirt/jacket. Rifle shooters tend to have specific clothes for the range (shooting jackets and the like) - pistols shooters can shoot in anything, so they're more likely to shoot in their street clothes, but a dedicated jacket would help reduce exposure.

Of interest is this case study of lead poisoning in a shooting team in the US, which highlighted the need to also clean the range if it's an indoor range.

I apologize, I forgot that lead is excreted but you do get a build up in tissue such as the bone. It does lead to toxicity.

Dusty87

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

Go off and eat 150 grms of lead and get back to us to see how you get on.!

Thats some cartridge there Fearghal, good man :rolleyes:.

Id say them 150grm cartridges skin the birds for ya do they??
It just shows how little you know if you think someone who eats game is going to eat that amount at one time.

Feargal as Luimneach

Dusty87 wrote: »

Thats some cartridge there Fearghal, good man :rolleyes:.

Id say them 150grm cartridges skin the birds for ya do they??
It just shows how little you know if you think someone who eats game is going to eat that amount at one time.

I don't shoot, I never said I did. I was talking about taking it orally. Now off you go boy!

4gun

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

I don't shoot, I never said I did. I was talking about taking it orally. Now off you go boy!

you take your lead orally?..

Grizzly 45

Well in this case I should be DEAD a long time ago!!
Dont know how many of us born in the 60s chewed as kids on our lead painted cots and stuck our matchbox lead painted toys in our gobs.

I used to cast my own lead soilders from old roof lead my dad salvaged off old houses,the only thing he told me to be careful of was the lead fumes coming off the aluminium saucepan I was using for a smelter on an old rickety Primus stove.
[Speaking of tetryl lead in petrol.He used to work for Exxon and in their raffineries.The crew that had to clean out the tetryl ethyl facilities were the best paid and the shortest lived apprently back in the 1950s.]

Some of the plumbing in our old house is still lead!
[With some of those more modern asbestos pipes in there as well no doubt.:eek:]
Yet it isnt a problem as there is so much lime scale build up it practically seals the lead from the water.Been drinking the water since I was born.Have eaten game shot with both leadshot and bullets since I was able to,and am still here,and thats quite alot now at this stage.Cast my own lead weights for diving and handle them as well wet or dry.
Like I said I should be long since gone.My German granddad lived til he was 99 of old age ,gave up hunting at 97,and had been hunting since he was 18.No trouble there either with lead,was sharp as a new pin until the day he died.They ate,post the Reich from aluminium pots,of very dubious quality for many years.Not one died of Alsheimers.

Our family home over there is built ona bombed out Luftwaffe
synthetic fuel processing plant.There is still tetryl in the soil,along with God knows what still leaching from blown up fuel bunkers into the water table.We have had a veg garden there for three generations,and last time it was soil tested lead was a neglible trace,but high for the surrounding areas .The health dept were more worried about us digging up an unexploded bomb from the war than lead poisioning.

So while it is dangerous,no doubt about it,it isnt depleted uranium...I would think with all the crud and pollution from car exhausts etc.
Not to mind one thing that is not considerd very often outboard boat motors with their exhaust gas bein mixed into the propwash,running on two stroke mix which is one of the biggest pollutors going.Wonder how much of that contributes to lead water pollution?

One place I would say is distinctivly unhealthy in Ireland for lead pollution is actually the old Silvermines works in Nenagh Co Tip.Been up there a few time and came away from them feeling nauseous.There are lads who hunt and sell bunnies from there,and a few deer hunters.I would love to see the lead content in that meat from backround lead contamination.More I would say from any shot.

jwshooter

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

i'd be more afraid of firing Blanks TBH (no Pun's intended)

Rather not risk it!

that would be some loss to the gene pool .

4gun

half the fuss about lead poisioning comes from old pewter ware that people used to eat off, acid in certin food used to dissolve the lead which was why tomatoes were considered poison
Also from lead oxide face power that was used in th 17th or 18th century.
I'd agree with Tack. to a point absolutely limit the ammount ingested to as little as possible..
but then how many shooters smoke? is lead poisioning their number 1 concern
what else should we be wary of :rolleyes:

jwshooter

Dusty87 wrote: »

Iv been eating pigeon for years, and i still managed to get her pregnant and she on the pill:eek:

you would have to stand over them dusty ,they would forget there heads

jwshooter

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

I was making a point about raptors. I wasn't making any comment on lead poisoning in humans. Lead shot should be banned because it is toxic to apex predators such as raptors.

iv shot 1000s of shells at clays in the field beside my house , if i got the lotto numbers i reckon i would not find a grain of shot in the field

elius

Dusty87 wrote: »

Iv been eating pigeon for years, and i still managed to get her pregnant and she on the pill:eek:

You must be my long lost bro:D, Eating Rabbit's pheasants and alike for years. In fact when in the uk with my grandad for summer months all we had was rabbit Stew, Pie, casserole with the odd pigeon thrown in and peasants and i still managed to knock the misses up and as above (like dusty 87) she on the pill.(Due November;) ) Had no effects on me.


My Second cousin has 20 odd pellets in him from being shot. And not a bother on him and he's touching 80 odd....

Tac ya cant live that way everything in life has risks.

landkeeper

yeah tac;) rumor has it with some of the birds you eat you'll get more than lead poisioning

FISMA

On, albeit crude, simple test for alzheimer's is a smell test.

The olfactory part of the brain is one of the first to go when Alzheimer's strikes. This is the area that relays scent information.

Get someone to help with a blindfold test, or you could do it yourself. Get some items in bowls: cinnamon, tea, apples, lemons, Guinness, whatever and see if you can identify the smell. An inability to do so may warrant further investigation.

Finally, do not let the Guinness go to waste.:pac::pac::pac::pac:

Sparks

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

I apologize, I forgot that lead is excreted but you do get a build up in tissue such as the bone. It does lead to toxicity.

It will build up if you are continually exposed to it. Even the 1% that you do not excrete in the normal way you excrete solid wastes, will be eventually excreted from the body; it's just that it takes a lot longer (often weeks or months).

But so long as your range hygiene is good, you won't be exposed to much lead (or at least, no more than anyone else is exposed to), and so it won't be in your system to begin with.

But eating shot game is not going to lead to lead exposure.

Dusty87

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

I don't shoot, I never said I did. I was talking about taking it orally. Now off you go boy!

Fearghal, no one is denying that lead can harm you, but when is someone going to eat 150grms of lead?? Your arguement is stupid to say the least. This is the shooting forum where we are talking about weather eating game shot with lead will harm or not, not which animal can be harmed. Now off with you boy:rolleyes::rolleyes:

4gun

Dusty87 wrote: »

Fearghal, no one is denying that lead can harm you, but when is someone going to eat 150grms of lead?? Your arguement is stupid to say the least. This is the shooting forum where we are talking about weather eating game shot with lead will harm or not, not which animal can be harmed. Now off with you boy:rolleyes::rolleyes:

and to add to this,

we actually USE lead to kill animals in the first place of of course its harmful to them ....duh :rolleyes:

Dusty87

FISMA wrote: »

Finally, do not let the Guinness go to waste.:pac::pac::pac::pac:

Guinness always turns to waste the next morning:D:pac::pac::pac:
human waste