'Manly men' and worship

SonOfAdam

I saw an interview* with Matt Redman (songwriter/worship leader) where he said that he now regrets some words that he has used in his songs [I love you etc.] as some men have difficulty singing a 'love' song to Jesus; as if they see it as being a bit 'gay'** (not his words). Personally, I think through their own sense of machoism, they are confusing worship with romantic love.

What is your opinion of this ?

*can't post link (at work)
** my inference

dvae

I know a Chinese bloke in Athlone.
I love his chicken balls but not in a gay way.

Zombrex

SonOfAdam wrote: »

I saw an interview with Matt Redman (songwriter/worship leader) where he said that he now regrets some words that he has used in his songs [I love you etc.] as some men have difficulty singing a 'love' song to Jesus; as if they see it as being a bit 'gay' (not his words). Personally, I think through their own sense of machoism, they are confusing worship with romantic love.

What is your opinion of this ?

Do you have a link to the interview (it is a little confusing to quote words and then say not his words ).

The Smurf

A big problem in the Catholic Church at present is the feminisation of the Mass, with hand-holding, lots of women doing things, and lots of other silliness that is not meant to be part of the Mass. Many priests think that the Mass, said reverently and in accordance with the rubrics and the true 'Spirit of the Liturgy' is not enough, so they add things of their own, like getting lots of women into the sanctuary and a lot of ad libbing, and other silliness. They do this to be hip and inclusive, but in the end just alienate young men like myself.

The cause of this silliness is in large part due to the very poor Liturgical formation these priests receive at Maynooth.

Another issue is altar girls. These take over the role and boys at that age don't have much interest in competing with girls. This in turn damages vocations to priesthood as altar serving was once a source of vocations to priesthood. It is recognised that this was a mistake, along with permitting Communion in the Hand. Both practises started out as abuses which were later tolerated...

I would say to the OP, men and women are different and to try and pretend that they are not different is harmful, most especially to men, who are more difficult to get and keep in Church than ladies. Many men, especially young men, and all men in fact, think that much of what goes on in churches, both catholic and non-Catholic, is lame. It's really a case of looking lame when we try to incorporate the entertainment aspects of the world into Divine Worship, it's just lame.

Having said that I do think there is a place for praise and worship music, but definitely not at Mass.

Morbert

lots of women doing things

*gasp* What's the world coming to?!?!

Zombrex

The Smurf wrote: »

They do this to be hip and inclusive, but in the end just alienate young men like myself.

Can you expand on this? How does women doing things in church alienate you, as a man?

Do you mean they are doing things that traditionally would be done by men and thus the men have nothing to do and thus have less connection with the service?

Ash.J.Williams

The Smurf wrote: »

A big problem in the Catholic Church at present is the feminisation of the Mass, with hand-holding, lots of women doing things, and lots of other silliness that is not meant to be part of the Mass. Many priests think that the Mass, said reverently and in accordance with the rubrics and the true 'Spirit of the Liturgy' is not enough, so they add things of their own, like getting lots of women into the sanctuary and a lot of ad libbing, and other silliness. They do this to be hip and inclusive, but in the end just alienate young men like myself.

The cause of this silliness is in large part due to the very poor Liturgical formation these priests receive at Maynooth.

Another issue is altar girls. These take over the role and boys at that age don't have much interest in competing with girls. This in turn damages vocations to priesthood as altar serving was once a source of vocations to priesthood. It is recognised that this was a mistake, along with permitting Communion in the Hand. Both practises started out as abuses which were later tolerated...

I would say to the OP, men and women are different and to try and pretend that they are not different is harmful, most especially to men, who are more difficult to get and keep in Church than ladies. Many men, especially young men, and all men in fact, think that much of what goes on in churches, both catholic and non-Catholic, is lame. It's really a case of looking lame when we try to incorporate the entertainment aspects of the world into Divine Worship, it's just lame.

Having said that I do think there is a place for praise and worship music, but definitely not at Mass.

Exactly!! The sooner we prevent women from taking part in mass the better!! Us men can get on with it!!

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

PDN

SonOfAdam wrote: »

I saw an interview* with Matt Redman (songwriter/worship leader) where he said that he now regrets some words that he has used in his songs [I love you etc.] as some men have difficulty singing a 'love' song to Jesus; as if they see it as being a bit 'gay'** (not his words). Personally, I think through their own sense of machoism, they are confusing worship with romantic love.

What is your opinion of this ?

I've heard something along these ines before.

I think Matt Redman is wrong, and that the real problem is that many men have more difficulty than women in expressing their feelings and emotions.

Certain concepts in Scripture should be adhered to, irrespective of our gender. The Church (including men) is the Bride of Christ. All Christians (including women) are the sons of God. Trying to change that language to sound more inclusive IMHO actually obscures important biblical and theological truths.

SonOfAdam

I understand there is a difference between man and woman and there is a complementarity between the sexes - we were created (man and woman) in His image and are called to worship him in spirit and in truth. Maybe the question should be this : do men find it more difficult to worship God than women given that there may be an internal struggle by virtue of them worshiping, what we perceive to be, a male being ?

the smurf wrote:

Having said that I do think there is a place for praise and worship music, but definitely not at Mass

If the chief end of man is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever (as per the cathechism of RCC) and mass is the (only?) place where most catholics meet him where else would praise and worship take place if not in the main celebration of your faith ?


Thanks PDN - posted before I read your reply

Splendour

I agree with partially with PDN, although I think many of us have problems in saying 'I love you' to our earthly parents so this is possibly transferred onto our heavenly father. Having said that, I find the line 'Jesus I am so in love with you' of this song a bit odd:


Let My Words Be Few-Matt Redmond

You are God in heaven
And here am I on earth
So I'll let my words be few
Jesus, I am so in love with You

And I'll stand in awe of You, Jesus
Yes, I'll stand in awe of You
And I'll let my words be few
Jesus, I am so in love with You

The simplest of all love songs
I want to bring to You
So I'll let my words be few
Jesus, I am so in love with You

I can't say 'I'm in love with Jesus' although I could certainly say 'I love Jesus.'

Splendour

The Smurf wrote: »

Having said that I do think there is a place for praise and worship music, but definitely not at Mass.

Psalm 150
1 Praise the LORD. [a]
Praise God in his sanctuary;
praise him in his mighty heavens.

2 Praise him for his acts of power;
praise him for his surpassing greatness.

3 Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet,
praise him with the harp and lyre,

4 praise him with tambourine and dancing,
praise him with the strings and flute,

5 praise him with the clash of cymbals,
praise him with resounding cymbals.

6 Let everything that has breath praise the LORD.
Praise the LORD.

The Smurf

Wicknight wrote: »

Can you expand on this? How does women doing things in church alienate you, as a man?

Do you mean they are doing things that traditionally would be done by men and thus the men have nothing to do and thus have less connection with the service?

Pope Benedict has written extensively on the misunderstanding that followed the Second Vatican Council on the subject of 'active participation' and what it meant. Many bishops and priests, sadly even today, think this means we must be 'doing things' during the mass, like carrying stuff or giving out Holy Communion. What the Council Fathers meant was not this, it was about how to get the people to participate in an active, spiritual sense, in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, which is not accomplished by 'doing things' or faffing around in the sanctuary.

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

Exactly!! The sooner we prevent women from taking part in mass the better!! Us men can get on with it!!

The priest offers the Sacrifice of the Mass. The people participate in that Sacrifice in a dfifferent way than the priest. To suggest, as many do, that the only way to participate in mass is by imitating the priest is a new and horrid form of clericalism, very popular in Ireland right now.

Plowman wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

You are wrong about altar boys and vocations. The 2000 year tradition of the Catholic Church would not support your assertion.

Are you Catholic? In fact, even if you were Catholic, I'd be quite surprised if you could follow or accept my arguments were I to present them. There has been a lot of turmoil and confusion in Catholic Liturgy for these past 40 years. I am not so foolish to think that I can correct all that in a couple of posts so I won't get into it, other than to say that the Church is wrestling with these issues and trying to restore order to the Church, especially as regards the Mass. If you want to read about the altar girl issue, you can see here:

http://www.adoremus.org/0302Altargirls.html

Excerpt:

Experience since 1994 has proven true the warning that since women are neither eligible for ordination nor even for anything but temporary, "delegated" service at the altar, it is actually a disservice to girls to encourage or even to allow them to serve in this fashion. Just as service at the altar encourages priestly vocations in boys, so it can encourage the (false) hope of possible ordination in the minds of some girls as well. Anyone who has talked to one of these altar girls (or, especially, to her parents!) knows that many of them do think that they should be able to be priests some day.

Cardinal Arinze also addresses the issue in this youtube video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWByiwHE4MY

''I think it was a mistake that they were introduced at all.''

- Cardinal Arinze, Prefect Emeritus of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments.

Splendour wrote: »

Psalm 150
1 Praise the LORD. [a]
Praise God in his sanctuary;
praise him in his mighty heavens.

2 Praise him for his acts of power;
praise him for his surpassing greatness.

3 Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet,
praise him with the harp and lyre,

4 praise him with tambourine and dancing,
praise him with the strings and flute,

5 praise him with the clash of cymbals,
praise him with resounding cymbals.

6 Let everything that has breath praise the LORD.
Praise the LORD.

Again, I can't expect you to understand these complex Catholic matters via a few comments on a blog post. To gain insight into the purpose and spirit of the Catholic Mass, read Cardinal Ratzinger's 'Spirit of the Liturgy'.

wolfsbane

Splendour wrote: »

I agree with partially with PDN, although I think many of us have problems in saying 'I love you' to our earthly parents so this is possibly transferred onto our heavenly father. Having said that, I find the line 'Jesus I am so in love with you' of this song a bit odd:


Let My Words Be Few-Matt Redmond

You are God in heaven
And here am I on earth
So I'll let my words be few
Jesus, I am so in love with You

And I'll stand in awe of You, Jesus
Yes, I'll stand in awe of You
And I'll let my words be few
Jesus, I am so in love with You

The simplest of all love songs
I want to bring to You
So I'll let my words be few
Jesus, I am so in love with You

I can't say 'I'm in love with Jesus' although I could certainly say 'I love Jesus.'

Yes, I think you have captured the problem. Some of the language used in modern hymns is the same in all nuances as the language we use for romantic love.

There is a problem not only for the gay-sounding stuff, but also for women singing it - it can lead to an unhealthy concept of their relationship to Christ.

I gather it is not all modern either - some of the mystics centuries ago seemed a bit off too.
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Matthew 22:37 Jesus said to him, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

Manach

Slightly tongue in check, that is why I enjoy Latin hymns at mass. No need to parse the meaning, and just enjoy the experience.

johnfás

I dislike many modern song, not because of their use of the word love, but because of many of them being both theologically sparse and predominantly self centred.

homer911

Manach wrote: »

Slightly tongue in check, that is why I enjoy Latin hymns at mass. No need to parse the meaning, and just enjoy the experience.

Do you understand the Latin and can you sing if from the heart?

If not, you could be singing a song praising Satan for all you know!

CIE

SonOfAdam wrote: »

I saw an interview* with Matt Redman (songwriter/worship leader) where he said that he now regrets some words that he has used in his songs [I love you etc.] as some men have difficulty singing a 'love' song to Jesus; as if they see it as being a bit 'gay'** (not his words). Personally, I think through their own sense of machoism, they are confusing worship with romantic love.

What is your opinion of this ?

*can't post link (at work)
** my inference

They must hate Shakespeare for some unknown reason as well. Manly men in his plays always talked about "lov(ing)" their friends. Do they "unlove" their own fathers too?

wolfsbane

CIE wrote: »

They must hate Shakespeare for some unknown reason as well. Manly men in his plays always talked about "lov(ing)" their friends. Do they "unlove" their own fathers too?

I think the problem has only arisen in the present gay-awareness society. Before that love of another man was seen to refer to brotherly or paternal love. Now everyone is constantly faced with it being used of homosexual love, so ambiguity arises.

In my youth Ivanhoe was 'bold and brave and gay', without any implication of his sexual preferences.

So we need to be careful when we speak of loving someone of the same sex, careful that the context makes the meaning clear.
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John 11:5 Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus.