Where is this forum going?

Dav

Folks, this forum was set up for non-drinkers to discuss alternatives to the usual social activity of going to the pub. There were meet ups and ideas shared etc. It was *never* set up to act as a support group type forum. We specifically didn't want it to be a support group forum.

Alcoholics trying to get better need to seek professional advice from places geared towards handling their needs. Boards.ie shouldn't be that place - it's way too open to someone giving bad advice (unintentional or otherwise) or some arsehole troll finding this forum and deciding to tear down the good work someone's been doing in giving up so badly that they pick up another bottle. For the record, I do have a lot of personal experience with this issue - my father was one of many in a family of alcoholics and his drinking killed him in the end. For this and several other reasons, I am a mostly non-drinker these days.

The issue of the Giving up Smoking forum has been raised and it's a fair point. I think the difference between a smoker and an alcoholic is that a smoker is a lot less likely to endanger other people's lives (second hand smoke arguement aside) and destroy a family. But I'm not dismissing the issue, just pointing out why I think we have this sort of forum for smokers. The decision was made before I became and employee and I'm going to have to do a bit of research about it's creation - please leave it with me.

The "higher ips" are talking about where we go with this forum. There may be a middle ground but that needs to be worked towards as a group. We're going to mull it over for a few days, I would very much appreciate it if people could post their thoughts here for us to review early next week.

Thank you for your time.

Dav
Boards.ie Community Manager

cue

This forum has attracted many in recovery because it deals with the experiences of those who are trying to socialise and engage in activities that do not involve alcohol. Everyone on this forum shares that common interest but those in recovery are coming from a very different place than someone who never drank. This in itself is attracting problem drinkers who are trying to actually stop drinking and who want to know how those in recovery managed to stop and stay stopped, whether it was through AA or counselling or whatever. There appears to be a need coming from within the Boards members for information on the type of help that is out there.
I suppose it is up to the higher ups to decide if Boards wants to fill this need with a forum.

Doublin

cue wrote: »

This forum has attracted many in recovery because it deals with the experiences of those who are trying to socialise and engage in activities that do not involve alcohol. Everyone on this forum shares that common interest but those in recovery are coming from a very different place than someone who never drank. This in itself is attracting problem drinkers who are trying to actually stop drinking and who want to know how those in recovery managed to stop and stay stopped, whether it was through AA or counseling or whatever. There appears to be a need coming from within the Boards members for information on the type of help that is out there.
I suppose it is up to the higher ups to decide if Boards wants to fill this need with a forum.

I would agree with this wholeheartedly. While all people with alcohol problems/dependency should seek professional help initially, there is also a need for a sense of community with fellow people who can 'understand' where you are coming from and going.

The advice/opinions I have read on this forum opened my mind to possibilities I didn't know/think of before (My GP shoved me towards a treatment centre, who in turn shoved me towards AA) e.g. Addiction Counsellor, which has been great. I would still go to some AA meetings not for the 'AA' part of the meeting but to meet friends & acquaintances who I have shared a common experience with and who understand and support what is going on.

This is where a forum could help. GP/Professional etc. can offer advice and potential roads to recovery (can be cold/impartial, for good or bad on something that can be wrapped up in emotions but self-destructive). However, I firmly believe that the support of others going through the same/something similar is the key to long term recovery and learning about alternative's to your previous patterns of behaviour.

I don't really see where such treads differ from PI or others which bring together people with similar issues and can provide advice/assistance/knowledge & support to what can be a lonely/bleak/lack of hope outlook.

As an random aside, from Boards I have both developed an appreciation for Mustard and Religious Beliefs which I never had much of before. That is something I never really looked at before/read up about, and for which I am appreciative of this site for 'inspiring' me to look into things further. AH and CT can often be off the wall to me but can cause me to think and examine beliefs/outlooks randomly also. What I believe from that is that all talk is good, it opens your possibilities and can really change your life.

Elenxor

I (for one) regret that this Forum has been involved in controversy and sincerely hope it can be saved.

If I have offended anyone or advocated one Group above another I am sorry.

At the end of the day., I think we are all coming from the same viewpoint, whatever stops us from drinking is O.K.

Tender Hoop

I cant help but think that this is all my fault.

I was the one who came up with the idea of having a recovery forum. The reason for this was that most people on here were already using this forum to talk about their experiences with addictions. I felt that the non addicts non drinkers would have preferred us to go elsewhere which is understandable as we come from two totally different back rounds.

I think the risk of receiving poor advice on here would be the same as in any forum. Personal issues/ Relationship deals with extremely delicate topics all the time and there does not seem to be a problem.

When you say that someone might receive bad advice and then go out drinking are you not concerned that someone who is depressed ( of which there seems to be many) in PI might receive poor advice and then go and top themselves??

They are outside sources of help for people recovering from addictions but I do feel it is an issue that can be discussed on boards. There is obviously a need for it as this forum seems to have been "hijacked" by people in recovery for some time.

I think its a pretty poor show for the powers that be to lock our threads and tell us to g else where.

force majeure

Good question, where indeed.
I fully agree with Dav on the matter at hand, this form should not be used as a advice or recovery form as far too may alkis [myself included] tend to think they are well placed to offer help wheres as every person with an alcohol addiction well have their own personal and unique [if I can use the word] account off their prolonged fight with alcohol.
The best way forward is to state quiet simply that every one with an addiction must have the assistance and advice off a professional and not some one with well meaning who can only retell their own situations.
Result if some one wants to take the rains and set up a club or regular get together up and down the country they they have my full support and any help that I can relay.
PS I may be down south in Kerry but it does not mean I cant travel!
FM

cue

force majeure wrote: »

The best way forward is to state quiet simply that every one with an addiction must have the assistance and advice off a professional and not some one with well meaning who can only retell their own situations.

Why the insistence on professional advice? I like the Boards forum precisely because it gives a broad range of experiences, mostly from non-experts. I'm not knocking professionals, but they have their place, and Boards is not it, or at least it doesn't appear to be.
Is Boards responsible if someone else drinks because they were affected by what they read here? If they are, then they should certainly close the forum.

bank

force majeure wrote: »

The best way forward is to state quiet simply that every one with an addiction must have the assistance and advice off a professional and not some one with well meaning who can only retell their own situations.
FM

If there was such thing as professional advice wouldn't you think that people would put their health and welfare first and seek this advice.

Quote again "not some well meaning who can only retell their own situations" This is EXACTLY what AA or any other recovery group is and that is all the advice they have to offer.

There is NO profession advice out their because there is absolutely no evidence as to the reason why some people become addicted or not, why some people just cant seem to stop no matter whats happening in their lives, why some people love AA and many others don't.

Nobody can give another either bad or good advice, they can only tell them what worked for them. We make the choices ourselves.

force majeure

cue wrote: »

Why the insistence on professional advice? I like the Boards forum precisely because it gives a broad range of experiences, mostly from non-experts. I'm not knocking professionals, but they have their place, and Boards is not it, or at least it doesn't appear to be.
Is Boards responsible if someone else drinks because they were affected by what they read here? If they are, then they should certainly close the forum.

I'm afraid you completly misunderstand my point in its entire.

force majeure

bank wrote: »

If there was such thing as professional advice wouldn't you think that people would put their health and welfare first and seek this advice.

Quote again "not some well meaning who can only retell their own situations" This is EXACTLY what AA or any other recovery group is and that is all the advice they have to offer.

There is NO profession advice out their because there is absolutely no evidence as to the reason why some people become addicted or not, why some people just cant seem to stop no matter whats happening in their lives, why some people love AA and many others don't.

Nobody can give another either bad or good advice, they can only tell them what worked for them. We make the choices ourselves.

At what point do I say this at all, all I'm saying is trying to do it off ones own back alone is a miscomprehension , on the 3 times I tried to do so on you idea did not work yet now that my GP and a councillor are involved it is working at no stage do I say every one must follow suit.

bank

force majeure wrote: »

The best way forward is to state quiet simply that every one with an addiction must have the assistance and advice off a professional and not some one with well meaning who can only retell their own situations.
FM

!What didn't you say????

cue

force majeure wrote: »

I'm afraid you completly misunderstand my point in its entire.

I don't doubt that, and I do apologise if I misunderstand. Maybe you could help me understand?

mikemac

I remember when this forum started.

We had plans like indoor football, basketball and meeting in cafes. Went very well, craic was had by all.
There were sponsors like Cineworld too.

What we have today is completely different, most threads are about recovery.

I do think there should be a recovery forum but that's for the site owners to decide.
Until then, I'd imagine this forum will go back to how it originally was.

Dav, in Personal Issues forum there are sub forums on relationships and bereavement.
Maybe start a new sub forum for the recovery threads to go there, the PI mods can handle it for sure.

As said, nobody here is offering professional advice but neither does the AA, just people sharing their experiences to show what worked for them.
If the AA are not liable I fail to see how Boards would be.

cantdecide

There certainly is a massive distinction between the two kinds of forum user here. I'm the lifelong teetotaller and you feel that you can be of no assistance to those in recovery and your perspective is 100% different to the other.

As already stated, my suggestion too would be a Recovery sub-forum where people can at least try and find out factual info about facilities and organisations etc. Having seen similar debates in the PI forum, you can understand that it's a delicate area. Having said that, there was quite a lot of heavy-handed modding that I felt was a bit beyond the pale.

Nevyn

feelingstressed wrote: »

Dav, in Personal Issues forum there are sub forums on relationships and bereavement.
Maybe start a new sub forum for the recovery threads to go there, the PI mods can handle it for sure.

This has been suggest before and turned down, there are many contributing reasons and factors as to why a person abuses drink or drugs or even food,
those who are at the stage where they are starting to seek help need to go and deal with professional help and real life face to face support.

Forums here can not provide that and may end up being a distraction so that people post rather then getting the real life assistance they need.

bank

Thaedydal wrote: »

those who are at the stage where they are starting to seek help need to go and deal with professional help and real life face to face support.



Why are so many people so called "Experts" when it comes to whats best for people who feel the need to talk about their problems, just because its alcohol. Its called ignorance/complete lack of knowledge. The one country in most need of a forum and everyone turns their backs. Typical Irish.

Doublin

bank wrote: »

Thaedydal wrote: »

those who are at the stage where they are starting to seek help need to go and deal with professional help and real life face to face support.

Of course, nobody with a problem like this can tackle it alone (or through an internet forum alone). As with every other forum on boards.ie it is a coming together of people with experience who can offer advice on how they found solutions/alternatives; be it car batteries/long term illness/X area of Ireland to live in. The point that is a single professional in this area (as a single professional in the other examples above) may not bring about the best solution for you. I don't see why you see a difference here to other area's of individuals lives as represented on these forums.

Nevyn

bank wrote: »

Why are so many people so called "Experts" when it comes to whats best for people who feel the need to talk about their problems, just because its alcohol. Its called ignorance/complete lack of knowledge. The one country in most need of a forum and everyone turns their backs. Typical Irish.

I didn't say it was just alcohol, if you had read my post you would see I clearly stated

there are many contributing reasons and factors as to why a person abuses drink or drugs or even food,

If you think there is such a need for that type of forum why don't you put your money and time where your keyboard is and set one up?

Doublin wrote: »

Thaedydal wrote: »

those who are at the stage where they are starting to seek help need to go and deal with professional help and real life face to face support.

Of course, nobody with a problem like this can tackle it alone (or through an internet forum alone). As with every other forum on boards.ie it is a coming together of people with experience who can offer advice on how they found solutions/alternatives; be it car batteries/long term illness/X area of Ireland to live in. The point that is a single professional in this area (as a single professional in the other examples above) may not bring about the best solution for you. I don't see why you see a difference here to other area's of individuals lives as represented on these forums.

Many people need counselling/therapy to get to the root reasons as to why they drink and how it effects them in their life. Being on the road to recovery can have a person hit rock bottom and end up angry, hurt, raw and vulnerable it is not fair to put them in a position where they may be exploited
and exposed online.

We have had threads in PI of people starting the process and they were given contacts and encouragement to start the process but the forum and site is not part of that process.

cue

Thaedydal wrote: »

may end up being a distraction so that people post rather then getting the real life assistance they need.

I had a load of counter arguments here about it helping people identify their problems etc here but I realised that Thaedydal might actually be right .

Most of us in recovery realise the responsibility we have to help those who are looking for help, and we have channels where that help is available (LifeRing, AA, Moderation Management, treatment centres, counselling, GPs, all trying their best to provide that crucial face to face assistance whether it is medical, physical or spiritual) and those channels are always crying out for people to help.

I can't speak for anyone else but I know that I get distracted from doing the actual work that needs to be done. It's easy for me to post here. Couple of sentences strung together and press "submit". Not a whole lot of personal involvement besides a few brain cells. Yet, I find that I'm always too busy to make myself available for the real work and I give out to all and sundry when it is not being done .

It's not about being right or wrong, its about being effective. In my case, maybe my energies are better spent elsewhere.

bank

Thaedydal wrote: »

I didn't say it was just alcohol, if you had read my post you would see I clearly stated



Did I say that you said it was just alcohol! I just mentioned alcohol because I dont use drugs or over eat.


QUOTE=Thaedydal;If you think there is such a need for that type of forum why don't you put your money and time where your keyboard is and set one up?


Ok so you don't post in the forums at all - and if perhaps you had the need why not go set your own forum up




QUOTE;Many people need counselling/therapy to get to the root reasons as to why they drink and how it effects them in their life. Being on the road to recovery can have a person hit rock bottom and end up angry, hurt, raw and vulnerable it is not fair to put them in a position where they may be exploited
and exposed online.


Firstly don't patronise people by telling them what they need and secondly don't feel you have some right to make a judgement as big as saying us people are being exploited. We will make out own decisions.


Fair enough if the Managers of boards.ie don't want a recovery forum or want to have a discussion on it. We have been asked for our opinion by Dave and thats what we are doing.

We don't need your Non professional advice.

Doublin

[/QUOTE]Many people need counselling/therapy to get to the root reasons as to why they drink and how it effects them in their life. Being on the road to recovery can have a person hit rock bottom and end up angry, hurt, raw and vulnerable it is not fair to put them in a position where they may be exploited
and exposed online.

We have had threads in PI of people starting the process and they were given contacts and encouragement to start the process but the forum and site is not part of that process.[/QUOTE]

Hi Thaedydal,

I am not trying to argue with you regards your first paragraph, believe me I have been down
those roads, the only thing I did not lose was my life (through no effort of my own), but there
is no one source of solution. This is not what the tread is about.

Re the second paragraph, I agree with the start of the process portion. Unfortunately/Fortunately
we addicts(in recovery or desiring recovery) need/desire/like regular connection with others
undergoing the same thing. I can't explain this properly at the moment, but it is something
like:

1) you have a problem; you are truthful to yourself and see this is a problem; you desire help and
seek it through??:
Conventional GP, friends & family. As with all things affecting you in life, these can range from 1-100% helpful.
But some of these 'quick solutions' may not last the mile; the ingrained impact of addiction and how it stays with you
throughout life is also not what what this tread is about.

2) you have acheived sobriety, you have received something good
from others(any source btw) that has helped you, you have shared, changed, experiencied a major difference in
your life & outlook(turning around the downwards that you had in the 1st paragraph of
your post). Again not going into it deeply, you become less selfish and more selfless & reach out
to others who you can see are in the pain you once were and provide assistance in any way a person who
has been on the same path can.

I am just back from an AA meeting tonight where I mentioned this topic to a person who
is 25+ years sober but still gives his time to helping new-comers, organising meetings, getting
help to anyone he can reach. He said if he knew how to use a computer he would be on here
advocating anything to help those who think they may have a problem in an instant.

Nevyn

Point of information: [noparse]

[/noparse]
the code for quotes they need to be closed like brackets.

bank wrote: »

Many people need counselling/therapy to get to the root reasons as to why they drink and how it effects them in their life. Being on the road to recovery can have a person hit rock bottom and end up angry, hurt, raw and vulnerable it is not fair to put them in a position where they may be exploited
and exposed online.

Firstly don't patronise people by telling them what they need and secondly don't feel you have some right to make a judgement as big as saying us people are being exploited. We will make out own decisions.

I am giving my input as to why such a forum was ruled out as a subforum of the personal issues group.

bank wrote: »

Fair enough if the Managers of boards.ie don't want a recovery forum or want to have a discussion on it. We have been asked for our opinion by Dave and thats what we are doing.

We don't need your Non professional advice.

I think it's wonderful that Dav the community manager started the thread and I have only posted in it due the fact the Personal Issues forum and it's mods were mentioned.

If you don't like what I have to say fair enough but that does not invalidate it.

Nevyn

Doublin wrote: »

Hi Thaedydal,

I am not trying to argue with you regards your first paragraph, believe me I have been down those roads, the only thing I did not lose was my life (through no effort of my own), but there is no one source of solution. This is not what the tread is about.

Re the second paragraph, I agree with the start of the process portion. Unfortunately/Fortunately we addicts(in recovery or desiring recovery) need/desire/like regular connection with others
undergoing the same thing.

I understand that there are people in my life who have undertaken the long road to recovery in terms of their alcoholism and living with the alcoholism of a loved on and it's effects. I know that regular supports are needed and regular contact but I am of the opinion that the best type is that of face to face and that there is a network of meeting and sponsors out there for people.

I know it's a very hard thing to do to take those brave steps and start the road to recovery and everyone that does has my respect but they need the best supports and as wonderful as this site is, there is nothing like the look on someones face that tells you they have been where you are and they got through it and there's nothing like a hug.

It is a hard thing to go about changing your life and I don't think this site can do all that is needed and if it can't it's best it doesn't offer half arse measures as any stumble on the road to recovery can set a person several back.

Doublin wrote: »

I am just back from an AA meeting tonight where I mentioned this topic to a person who is 25+ years sober but still gives his time to helping new-comers, organising meetings, getting help to anyone he can reach. He said if he knew how to use a computer he would be on here advocating anything to help those who think they may have a problem in an instant.

I think he's doing well where he is and long may his sobriety be a positive force in his life and the lives of those he touches.

The PI forums will always point people to get help and start the hard journey on the road, and where they can meet people like your friend who will give them help and hope.

As for the remit and future of the forum I hope it stays open and active.
I am only an occasional drink and 3 tends to be my limit if I am out and I know the pressures when you are not drinking on an evening and how people can make a fuss and all the pressures that go with it(esp the gits who start asking if you are preggers very loudly).

As more people learn to value their sobriety and make the choice not to drink be they Teetotallers or in recovery I always thought having a forum to support those who don't drink and to organise nights out with out drink is a wonderful thing. It also makes not drinking more normal and hopefully some day going out and not consuming alcohol won't be pass remarkable at all.

[-0-]

Sticky that reads "THIS IS NOT A SUPPORT FORUM FOR ALCOHOLICS - DO NOT USE IT AS ONE".

Update charter to explain exactly what the forum is for - Organising Non Drinking Events.

Users report posts that break the above.

Job done.

Dav

Folks, just popping in to say I haven't forgotten about this thread, I'm having a very busy week. But I'm doing my best to get some manner of solution for us here by the end of this week. I've started to summarise my thoughts and reactions to your feedback, but it'll take a wee while to get written up.

Thank you everyone for their feedeback so far, I will be back with a more detailed post.

Dav

The Black Oil

Interesting thread. I'm not a teetotaller and only drink around 5-6 times a year. I attended 2 events through this forum when that seemed to be its primary remit. That and discussing what it was like to be a non-drinker or just have a general chat. It's always hard to get sufficient numbers for events. I can't remember when or how the focus took on a recovery based slant, it did come as a surprise, though. I find it a little off-putting, if I'm honest, though I've hardly posted here lately so... It would be good to see the forum going back to its original focus, but presumably that's down to the users pushing it in that direction.

Dav

Ok, so I've had a good chance to think about this topic and the forum and once again, thank you everyone for your feedback.

Going back to the reasons for this forum's creation, it was for non-drinkers to organise social events without the inevitable "What do you mean you don't drink?" comments. Believe me I know how that is. It is still the Admins feeling that this should remain the primary focus of this forum. This allows for non-drinkers and recovering alcoholics alike to go out and enjoy themselves in a mutually agreeable social setting. If people want to talk about their lives and/or what brought them to the forum, that's their choice of course. I see no reason that people shouldn't be allowed to talk about themselves and if they choose to share with everyone that they are in recovery or are simply choosing to not drink for whatever reason, that's their decision.

Looking at the forum today, we don't want to just remove all the genuinely useful stuff people have found here in their dealing with recovery. That said, this is not and should not be a "support group" type forum. As a compromise, I think it sensible and fair that we acknowledge that some people will find their way here as a part of their recovery process. What I propose is a sticky thread or two listing the various organisations (e.g. AA) and treatment centres (St John of Gods, Rutland Centre, etc) along with contact details or details of how you get referred to them (via GP or support groups etc). These would be for information purposes only and not for discussion. I would suggest that anyone wishing to add to these threads PM the details to the mods and they can add it in.

However, with this in mind, threads asking about the specifics of these places or organisations would still be very much off-topic and cross into the territory we specifically do not want to host on the site. I don't mean to be insensitive when I say this, but procrastination and self delusion go hand in hand with the realities of trying to combat any addiction. "I haven't stopped drinking yet, but sure I'm getting help by talking to the peoeple on the internet" does nothing further than delay the process which is one of the reasons we don't have these sorts of threads or forums. Legal issues of the medical advice on these sorts of forums aside, there is an ethical responsibility on us to do what's best for the members of this site.

I realise this point of view may annoy some of the members here, but unfortunately there's never a way to accomodate everyone's opinion I'm afraid. I'm basing these findings on both the feedback received here, from the other Admins and on my own personal experiences.

So over the next few days I will be working with the Mods here on how we implement this and you can expect to see a new charter and the resource threads I mentioned appearing soon.

Thank you once again for your time folks.

Dav

bank

Hi Dav

I just want to say thank you for taking the time to think about all thats been said. It can't have been easy with so many conflicting and sometimes quite angry views but you have come across to me as a very considerate and reasonable person and I appreciate this. I take on board the content of your last post and accept the decisions made. Good Luck.

CDfm

This is a great and I had stopped visiting this forum cos it had lost its focus.

Sometimes, I have a low boredom threshold at events that are focussed on drinking but I dont have a problem with others doing so. Then again I dont want tickets to X-factor auditions.