Re-loading and the law in Ireland..has it changed?

rrpc

Vegeta wrote: »

And some committee member who lives 2 minutes from the range answers back with "How about just allowing it on approved range premises then"

And then a law was born

I live 5 minutes from the range and I can just see such a solution totally wrecking my free time, or that of others in the same position. Never mind that you would either have to be 'on call' or people would turn up and you wouldn't be there.

Far too complicated to my mind and inherently unworkable. Especially when you have many ranges with nothing more than a garden shed on them.

By the same token, it's quite possible that somebody who's wont to put their mouth in gear without engaging their brain could come up with such a 'solution' because it works for them. I'm sure we all know people like that .

Of your three solutions, I think the best is to wait for the trial to be carried out and for the new bill to be published. There'll be plenty of time to handle any issues at that stage.

And again for the record, I'm not at all in favour of a centralised system for all the reasons given.

rrpc

johngalway wrote: »

So, you're saying should reloading for clubs be permitted in the future that clubs would not take it up as it would omit other shooters?

bunny_shooter didn't get a licence for a mod, are you going to hand yours back?

Why don't we work towards getting what's needed instead of trying to cut off our noses to spite our faces?

Strangely enough, I wouldn't have a need to relaod, but I can see very clearly why others would and don't really see why they shouldn't, provided they can do it safely.

johngalway

rrpc wrote: »

bunny_shooter didn't get a licence for a mod, are you going to hand yours back?

Why don't we work towards getting what's needed instead of trying to cut off our noses to spite our faces?

Strangely enough, I wouldn't have a need to relaod, but I can see very clearly why others would and don't really see why they shouldn't, provided they can do it safely.

I'll take the non answer as a yes then

As for Bunny, no I won't hand my mod back, infact I'm getting another one The difference there is the Gardai's interpretation of the law differing in both districts and not an edict handed down from the DOJ which would be unfairly applied across the board

Reloading isn't a particularly hard or dangerous activity. All that's needed is some attention to detail and an ability to follow the numbers so to speak.

My entire point was that everyone should have the choice to reload as a basic standard. If people want to get involved in groups, co-ops, or whichever after that level good and well, but no one should be left outside the door looking in.

tac foley

This is positively the very last time that I'll mention this on this forum - the stuff that makes the bang in cartridges is NOT an explosive. It is a propellant, perfectly safe to store in your broom cupboard if you felt so inclined.

I would point out that many of you living in rural areas are quite happy to have 25 or even 50 kg BOMBS in your houses, under the sinks, beside the stove - I'm talking about LPG tanks here, of course. 25 kilos of LPG going off will put the roof in the neighbouring county, let alone singe the ould eyebrows.

Modern nitro-cellulose propellants, kept and stored in their original containers, are safer than self-raising flour, a substance that IS explosive in air, as any miller will tell you.

Explosives go bang.

Propellants go FZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.

No other country seems to have a government 'scared of people storing powder in their own home' - not even the British government, well-known to be paranoid about almost everything to do with either Health & Safety or shooting.

tac

It wasn't me!

For the purposes of Irish legislation, they *are* explosives, just as a crossbow and an air rifle are firearms. Is it correct? No. Does it do any good to argue over their actual definition? No.

bunny shooter

Who mentioned moddies & me

This, as in reloading, is likely to cause US yet MORE problems if it is not sorted out properly :rolleyes:

Grizzly 45

I don't know anybody who reloads shotgun cartridges, but then, most semi-profis get a substantial discount, those that actually PAY for ammunition, that is.

We do...and it is still cheaper to buy Rottweil[which is pretty priccy ammo both here and Germany] than set up and reload.

Well, I shoot in Canada, two states of the USA and over here, and I've never heard of such a thing as a club reloading magazine - where on earth has THAT idea come from?

Try the Minister for justice equality and law reform, [or whatever their new handle is]
Dept of Justice,Dublin,Along with the cheif comissioner ,An Garda Siochanna HQ,Phoenix park,Dublin..They would be two good starting places .:rolleyes:

I'd like to belabour the point that in all my years on this planet I have never heard of ANY gun store being broken into to steal either propellant or other ammunition components - criminals buy their ammunition by the ton on the black market and import it under the noses of the Gardai in Dun Laoghaire and Dublin and anyplace else they fancy. The likes of the 'Aud' don't even figure on the ilegal arms market...

This WE know.It think the worry is that it would be nicked and used as a filler in pipe bombs.As the local crime lords are using DIY IEDs made by Ex subversives,who still have access for some reason to Semtex and other HE.This is the kind of mindset that has been in Govt circles since the States foundation in relation to gun ownership and explosives.We are like CA if you want a comparision,you cant even get table fireworks here legally,yet "banger season"[Illegal fire crackers] will be upon us soon too,and despite "tough new laws":rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:,any kid can get them on any housing estate in the land.So go figure.

SOME of you must get black powder, or else there would be no historical re-enactment. And of course, Pyrodex, Triple 7 or Clean-shot are propellants - and right now, you don't get propellants. Shame, that. BP shooting is great fun, especially out at the longer ranges with a good match rifle - 800, 900, 1000 and 1200 yards or so....

Well there isnt that much historical renenactment here in the ROI that uses BP.Its more UK and NIthat has the BP.It is a pity,as there are some fine old BP big elephant guns that would be intresting to fire again.

Not met any 'top name' shooters of any kind who pay for their own ammunition.

Neither have I ...point being???

. Over here, if you want anything done, you have to do it yourself. Like the man said, if you want to fly like an eagle, don't dress like a turkey

Not at all different over here my good man!Proably worse,as the eagles will be poisioned,by the turkeys who begrudge the eagles ability to soar.:(

f you can't afford to do it in the first place, don't bitch about not being able to afford it. Nobody ever said that IPSC-style shooting was made with paupers in mind. The same goes for F-TR, clay shooting or any other sport where there are dues to pay and expensive tools to play with.

Thats pretty below the belt Tac...So you are saying dont go showjumping if you cant afford a top class bloodline showjumping horse????Or dont expect to shoot for the Olympics,just because you havent got a top class current issue target pistol?
Great! So you were on the "winning side" ..Of what??The nowhereville IPSC team vs the "deliverance county"IPSC team?or was it an international competition where according to you us Irish would never have been,because we didnt have top class equipment,had to pay our own way from start to finish,werent even given the time of day by the PTB,or any money.[I do belive we did get a free calender!...once],buy our own ammo.But still brought home a Gold,in the first year of the sport being founded here,and were rated the most fastest growing pistol sport in the ROI since handguns were again legal,not to mind IPSC Intl,voted Ireland the most sucessful new country in the sport TWICE.
Not bad for me thinks fora bunch of people who couldnt reload and used average equipment and bought their own ammo without the facilites to reload.Maybe we have the right to bitch about the price??

rrpc

johngalway wrote: »

I'll take the non answer as a yes then

You're trying to take my word as representing all clubs in this country.

You'll forgive me if I don't answer in that capacity. It's not one I hold.

I did answer personally, but that's as far as I go. I pointed out earlier that I'm not exactly in the loop on this and also that some people are inclined to open their mouths just to change feet, but I draw the line at becoming somebodies idea of a spokesperson for all clubs.

I also gave reasons for why I think it would be a bad idea and if I'm asked, that's my opinion and those are my reasons.

What more can I be expected to say?

Vegeta

rrpc wrote: »

Of your three solutions, I think the best is to wait for the trial to be carried out and for the new bill to be published. There'll be plenty of time to handle any issues at that stage.

This is a good point actually, we will have time between bill and law and if there is a time for lobbying then I that is the time I guess.

Mr Mole

Tac Foley, I know you are pissed off hearing propellant called explosives. Please understand that under Irish Law, its classed as explosives, and if found with it unlawfully, you will be charged by the Police with unlawful possession of explosives, not propellant, but explosives. Likewise its storage etc is governed by the law as pertains to explosives. Yes, you and I and everyone else knows the difference, but the law doesnt.

On the general matter of when and how anyone might be permitted to reload in Ireland, a small group can have strong bearing on how it is done, whether by individuals, or within the confines of a club or range. We have see this already with the so called approved list of .22 Olympic style pistols, and the five round restriction on non restricted pistols. Dont believe for one minute that the PTB wont listen to another small group on this issue. The last thing the PTB want to see is reloading for pistols, but might just approve it for certain rifle users / competitions if the trial satisfies them.

Sparks

Bananaman wrote: »

I am not aware of any consultation taking place with any groups that would be interested in the reloading process - except those involved in the creedmoor trial but that would be limited to a small subset of 1) and hence not really consultation

Those involved would be on the FCP for a start and involved in F-Class for a second and therefore have a serious amount of motivation to succeed and the forum in which to do it. And they'd fall into both groups (1) and (2) there; and groups (3) and (4) are so small that if you had even one person there from either, you'd risk having the entire population of the group sitting at the table!
Apart from those, the only group not being represented is (as john points out) hunters; and at this stage of the proceedings, it might be better to make some progress before getting shouty. Given that the NARGC is currently in court more often than not against the PTB, having them in the discussion would lead to that discussion taking an adverse turn, just because of human nature. I'd say avoid it for now and sort it out when there's something with a bit of meat to get into, instead of fairly insubstantial proposals and what-ifs, which is the stage we're at at the moment.

tac foley

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Neither have I ...point being???

YOU said 'top end IPSC shooters - I said that I don't know any top end shooters who buy their own ammunition.

Thats pretty below the belt Tac...

I'm sorry you interpreted my post in that way - that was a generalisation, not a dig at the Irish team, whose fortunes we followed over here with has much fervour and go-gettit as you did. All we saw was a team of very good shooters, very succesful in their sport, no matter that they had just taken it up, AND we cheered when they won!

There was no mention in OUR shooting press of any details regarding Irish pistol-shooting funding, how the team was supported [or not] or anything else for that matter that would have detracted from the effort they put in. Only 'Here's the Irish team, haven't they done fantastically well and shown the rest of the world the way home!' Their photo from Gun Mart was on the wall in my shed until it fell off.

FWIW, I shot MY 9mm matches with a Canadian Inglis-made Browning made in 1943, that I'd bought for £38 back in 1968. And shot service 9mm in it, since I got that for nothing because of the funny clothes I wore at the time. I only reloaded for the .38 Spec revolver matches.

I don't shoot F-TR because I simply couldn't afford a rifle like that, and to be honest, I find the whole TR world to be slightly unreal and waaaaay too serious. So I shoot a lot of older guns that I CAN afford. Not one of my .22 rifles cost me more than £65. Not one of my vintage military rifles or carbines cost more than £300. My Krico in .308 Win was just over £800, but my Swiss-action TR was only £120 because it was so ugly that nobody wanted it. A bit like me.

All of my guns together couldn't buy a good TR these days.

tac

tac foley

Mr Mole wrote: »

Tac Foley, I know you are pissed off hearing propellant called explosives. Please understand that under Irish Law, its classed as explosives......The last thing the PTB want to see is reloading for pistols, but might just approve it for certain rifle users / competitions if the trial satisfies them.

OK. I hears ya.

Thank you.

tac

Bananaman

Sparks wrote: »

the only group not being represented is (as john points out) hunters; and at this stage of the proceedings, it might be better to make some progress before getting shouty.

Now now - who burned their last slice of bread in the toaster???

I was not shouty - I just pointed out that there is no consultation with the shooting associations - which there is not - in my experience there never has been.

There is consultation with a small group - on one range - all of who would probably not fill a mini bus - for this trail.

That is fine - that is all that is needed for the trail as that small group is all it is for.

But when it comes to the explosives materials legislation - which will affect each and every one of us - and everyone that comes after us - there is NO consultation with the shooting bodies - as usual - nor is it likely.

Hunters, Fullbore Target Pistol Shooters, Full Bore Target rifle shooters, Gallery Rifle Shooters, Classic Rifle Shooters, Clay Shooters, Black Powder Shooters, the list goes on and on.

None of them.

As for the FCP - what a joke - it's kinda like a convention for eunuch monks in Vegas - had a lot of potential but just didn't have the tools for the job.

It will however, continue to seek enlightenment and collect alms from the believers ... bless.

B'Man

Dvs

Bananaman wrote: »

As for the FCP - what a joke - it's kinda like a convention for eunuch monks in Vegas - had a lot of potential but just didn't have the tools for the job.

This could be your new sig line Bananaman.

Unfortunately it is an accurate statement.



Dvs.

Sparks

Bananaman wrote: »

Now now - who burned their last slice of bread in the toaster?

No-one - you misread me

I was not shouty

Wasn't talking about you. I thought I was being clear - I was referring to the current state of play between the PTB and the NARGC.

I just pointed out that there is no consultation with the shooting associations - which there is not - in my experience there never has been.

I think that's a statement that requires you to define your terms carefully in order to be correct. There has been consultation, and there has been consultation on this topic.
What there has not been is us dictating terms to the DoJ, but that would be a tiny minority dictating matters of legislation to the entire population, and none of us here likes the idea of that being allowed, which is why no-one likes what FF and the Greens are doing right now.

There is consultation with a small group - on one range - all of who would probably not fill a mini bus - for this trail.

I think you'd find that that small group are the people carrying out the trial, while the people involved in the consultation would be a slightly more inclusive group.

But when it comes to the explosives materials legislation - which will affect each and every one of us - and everyone that comes after us - there is NO consultation with the shooting bodies - as usual - nor is it likely.

That's just plain untrue, this has been talked about as far back as the first FCP conference three or four years ago.

As for the FCP - what a joke - it's kinda like a convention for eunuch monks in Vegas - had a lot of potential but just didn't have the tools for the job.

I love this kind of nonsense, I really do.
A decade ago, I suggested at one NTSA committee meeting that what was needed was an official forum for us to talk to the DoJ and Minister and Gardai about firearms stuff - just to talk to them, as they were fairly cagey about us because we were an unknown quantity to them. I was nearly laughed out of the room for being a naive college student Today, the idea's so boring and unsexy that people laugh at it as not being dramatic enough - "Oh noes, the FCP doesn't dictate policy to the Minister or legislation to the Oireachtas". The FCP was never going to be able to do that; it's a forum, one we've never had before, and it's worth having just for that.

What it's not, is a mechanism to reign in a wayward Minister, because there's no such thing in Ireland. It's not a means for us to dictate legislation, because there's no such thing in Ireland - and rightly so. It's not a means for us to exercise control over the PTB, because ... well, you get the picture. Laughing at the FCP because it's none of these things is just a poor reflection on your knowledge of the purpose of the FCP.

Sparks

Dvs wrote: »

This could be your new sig line Bananaman.
Unfortunately it is an accurate statement.
Dvs.

Horse hockey.
Shouting has only ever cost us in the end.
Talking is the only thing that has ever gained us things that last longer than it takes the Minister to pick up the phone and order a bill drafted.
But it takes longer to talk to a solution than it does to shout about a problem, and a fight's more fun than building something, so people seem to think it's a better idea to sue the Minister for something trivial than it is to sit down and hammer out a compromise we can build on.
/shrug.
I figure folk with no patience make bad shooters anyways.

dCorbus

I figure folk with no patience make bad shooters anyways

I'll get me popcorn!:rolleyes::D

Tackleberrywho

dCorbus wrote: »

I'll get me popcorn!:rolleyes::D

To be a great shooter one needs patience, I have limited patience so i will never go that extra mile.

Sparks

dCorbus wrote: »

I'll get me popcorn!:rolleyes::D

You're three years late - even when we were arguing over who should sit at the table, the point was explicity being made that the FCP was an advisory panel, not a policy-making panel:

Sparks wrote:

Have you even read the terms of reference of the FCP? The FCP does not make decisions. It advises, nothing more.

Grizzly 45

Great pity we cant charge for our "advice" like so many NGBs do.Maybe we might be taken abit more seriously then.:rolleyes:

Darr

not getting in the fcp - worthwhile or not conversation

but Im curious as to what this talk yeilded ?

Quote:
But when it comes to the explosives materials legislation - which will affect each and every one of us - and everyone that comes after us - there is NO consultation with the shooting bodies - as usual - nor is it likely.

That's just plain untrue, this has been talked about as far back as the first FCP conference three or four years ago.


thanks
Dar

rrpc

Darr wrote: »

not getting in the fcp - worthwhile or not conversation

but Im curious as to what this talk yeilded ?

thanks
Dar

Here's the thread on the FCP conference. A post about the reloading discussion, and another one.

There's probably lots more, but the search function works quite well

And just to reiterate what Sparks said, the FCP is consultative, so it puts its views and it's up to the Minister to take them on board....

...or not.

However, you can see from the posts above why the reloading issue was taken out of the firearms act and moved to the explosives act.

Dvs

Sparks wrote: »

Horse hockey.
Shouting has only ever cost us in the end.
Talking is the only thing that has ever gained us things that last longer than it takes the Minister to pick up the phone and order a bill drafted.
But it takes longer to talk to a solution than it does to shout about a problem, and a fight's more fun than building something, so people seem to think it's a better idea to sue the Minister for something trivial than it is to sit down and hammer out a compromise we can build on.
/shrug.
I figure folk with no patience make bad shooters anyways.

Sparks,
You quoted my post and posted the above,
a response to a number of things I did not post?

Dvs.

****s sake lads, first time I read this forum in months and still the same old **** with the same old people repeating the same old crap.

And you guys wonder why we keep getting the short end of the stick in firearms legislation?