Are Irish State Benefits too generous.

ixoy

McDougal wrote: »

I have no desire to start a company. I want a secure job with a pension where I can work 35 hours a week, access to good healthcare and enough free time to enjoy the finer things in life such as the arts, sport and travel.

So who do you want to start up this company for you? Do you want them to have only 35 hours a week setting it up but receive little reward for you?
What will this company do?
Does it need raw materials to set up? How will it purchase these?
How will it finance itself on startup? Will it be a loan? Who will back the loan and what collateral will they have? Who will insure it?
Who are the customers? How will they pay?

etc

McDougal

alex73 wrote: »

So you honestly expect a job to be handed to you on a plate? Which europe of the 70's are you taking about?

It's illogical to pay people not to work ie the dole. Labour creates wealth and therefore it's in the interests of the state to create work. Capitalists however like unemployment. It means enhanced competition between workers so that they can drive down wages and increase profits.

McDougal

ixoy wrote: »

So who do you want to start up this company for you? Do you want them to have only 35 hours a week setting it up but receive little reward for you?
What will this company do?
Does it need raw materials to set up? How will it purchase these?
How will it finance itself on startup? Will it be a loan? Who will back the loan and what collateral will they have? Who will insure it?
Who are the customers? How will they pay?

etc

The company already exists. It's merely about changing its ownership from private to public control.

changes

Its far too generous. It can be a lifestyle choice in ireland and people can get by just fine on it. Especially considering that they get medical card, fuel allowance, rent allowance/council house etc.

In New york you get $7.20 (€5.45) per hour working in McDonalds.... thats about 218euro for a 40 hour week.

We give that sort of money out here for doing nothing.

Max Power1

Also, there will be a cut (or cuts) soon whether we like it or not.

The question is will the cuts be made by the government or enforced by the IMF.

sceptre

I'd like to see significantly less negative personalisation in this thread please.

While I can see why the personalisation of the topic exists (ie a forum member slots personal circumstances into it, resulting in other people naturally referring to it), significant toning down please.

There is a general topic of discussion here, you know, what the thread's about...

/mod

alex73

McDougal wrote: »

It's illogical to pay people not to work ie the dole. Labour creates wealth and therefore it's in the interests of the state to create work. Capitalists however like unemployment. It means enhanced competition between workers so that they can drive down wages and increase profits.

You said it in one!! Labour creates wealth. If somebody wants to use their legit wealth to create a company and compete with other companies are they not entitled to? Are they not entitled to the wealth they earned.

The logic to your arguments are all of the place. Infact you seem to be from the joe higgins socialist party hippy camp.

McDougal

changes wrote: »

Its far too generous. It can be a lifestyle choice in ireland and people can get by just fine on it. Especially considering that they get medical card, fuel allowance, rent allowance/council house etc.

In New york you get $7.20 (€5.45) per hour working in McDonalds.... thats about 218euro for a 40 hour week.

We give that sort of money out here for doing nothing.

€218 for a 40 hour week? That's criminally low wages in a place like New York.

Head The Wall

McDougal wrote: »

The company already exists. It's merely about changing its ownership from private to public control.

Your ideas are like swiss cheese, full of holes.

How would this plan work out, something like Mugabe reclaiming the Farms for the people and now Zimbabwe is a barren wasteland.

alex73

McDougal wrote: »

The company already exists. It's merely about changing its ownership from private to public control.

Really... so are you suggesting we team up with venezuela? (AKA power cuts and isolation. ) Where do they get their money from?

McDougal

alex73 wrote: »

You said it in one!! Labour creates wealth. If somebody wants to use their legit wealth to create a company and compete with other companies are they not entitled to? Are they not entitled to the wealth they earned.

The logic to your arguments are all of the place. Infact you seem to be from the joe higgins socialist party hippy camp.

Of course they should be allowed. However the problem with the capitalist class is that they get rich off the wealth that others create.

McDougal

alex73 wrote: »

Really... so are you suggesting we team up with Valenzuela? (AKA power cuts and isolation. ) Where do they get their money from?

Where? Do you mean Venezuala?

alex73

McDougal wrote: »

Of course they should be allowed. However the problem with the capitalist class is that they get rich off the wealth that others create.

Who are the Capitalist class??

Sleepy

McDougal wrote: »

I'm not advocating Ireland declares itself a communist island. What we need is a socialist europe. We need an end to the workers of europe competing with eachother to see who can go the lowest. Workers need to unite and co-operate and not undercut eachother. The assets of the parasitic capitalist class will be seized and invested for the common good. The use of capital, labour, machiney, land and other resources will all be democratically planned.

OK, so now you want all of Europe to be starved of capital as it flees to (or returns to) the US or other Capitalist societes and most of Europe's talent to emmigrate as the best workers leave for greener pastures where they're allowed to benefit from their own talents rather than having to pay for you to have your comfortable 9 to 5.

So, with greatly reduced capital and greatly reduced talent and innovation in the supply of labour how is this utopian new society of yours going to out-perform our current society?

I contend that it won't. There'll either be mass unemployment as the "new europe" won't have the capital to fund non-productive companies or the masses will be toiling unproductively in fields.

danbohan

McDougal wrote: »

Of course they should be allowed. However the problem with the capitalist class is that they get rich off the wealth that others create.

yea your right brother , i am sure you are making some fat captalist very rich with your 35 hours hard work !

McDougal

alex73 wrote: »

Who are the Capitalist class??

Surely that's obvious. Those who derive the majority of their income from a capital function rather than a labour function.

McDougal

danbohan wrote: »

yea your right brother , i am sure you are making some fat captalist very rich with your 35 hours hard work !

Hope not although the company accounts suggest otherwise.

Welease

McDougal wrote: »

Hope not although the company accounts suggest otherwise.

... especially as you claimed not to pay any income tax

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=67316164&postcount=40

McDougal

Welease wrote: »

... especially as you claimed not to pay any income tax

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=67316164&postcount=40

Yes I don't even work 35 hours a week. I work 3 days. Got a problem with that?

scorpioishere

For me personally the social welfare benefits are far too much. It should definetely be cut. I know lots of people who are abusing the system and also some lazy one's who doesn't bother to go and look for job. There's job in Ireland unless you are very lazy, fussy and dnt have the academic qualification needed. Irish people think they will go to America or Australia to find jobs but in their mind they are thinking about partying. Also people should think about how many babies they want. If you can afford to look after the baby then its ok. So many people having babies like rabbits and can't look after them properly and have to rely on state benefits/taxpayers money. I even know people who use child benefits money to go on holidays 3/4 times a year. Absolutely disgraceful.

McDougal

scorpioishere wrote: »

For me personally the social welfare benefits are far too much. It should definetely be cut. I know lots of people who are abusing the system and also some lazy one's who doesn't bother to go and look for job. There's job in Ireland unless you are very lazy, fussy and dnt have the academic qualification needed. Irish people think they will go to America or Australia to find jobs but in their mind they are thinking about partying. Also people should think about how many babies they want. If you can afford to look after the baby then its ok. So many people having babies like rabbits and can't look after them properly and have to rely on state benefits/taxpayers money. I even know people who use child benefits money to go on holidays 3/4 times a year. Absolutely disgraceful.

Oh dear

But just to focus on one particular part of that post- how much should a woman/couple be earning before she is allowed have a baby?

scorpioishere

Well one child is enough. If you can afford to have another one , thats fine. But dnt make babies like rabbits and then other people have to pay for it.

McDougal

scorpioishere wrote: »

Well one child is enough. If you can afford to have another one , thats fine. But dnt make babies like rabbits and then other people have to pay for it.

You don't think that might create a future labour shortage?

scorpioishere

McDougal wrote: »

You don't think that might create a future labour shortage?

Well most irish people have money in ireland. If they want 10 babies, who cares as long as they doesn't received any benefits from the government. Future labour shortage i dnt think so. Also this will stop teens pregnancies too.

TheInquisitor

The Social Welfare is definitely too high. It should be reduced to the UK level of roughly E100. E20 of it should only be given in cash. A new system should be setup where the other E80 is put on a debit like card that can only be used on Food and other essentials. Like the food vouchers system that the US has.

No more people gambling, smoking or drinking their dole money away each week and it would be a serious encouragement for them to go back to work if they could get their playing around money back.

For the millionth time the dole is not meant to be a way of life as it has become. It is meant to be a allowance that allows you to get to your next job no more no less, just enough to survive on!

McDougal

scorpioishere wrote: »

Well most irish people have money in ireland. If they want 10 babies, who cares as long as they doesn't received any benefits from the government. Future labour shortage i dnt think so. Also this will stop teens pregnancies too.

Close down public schools too. That's a state benifit. Only the rich have the right to bear children!

scorpioishere

It will be a great idea

Chuchoter

Lone parent benefits are too high as is the dole, however now is the wrong time to be lowering it. People might not be able to get a job even if they want to now, whereas three years ago they could and still took the dole money. Once more jobs are around we should start lowering social welfare.

alex73

McDougal wrote: »

Oh dear

But just to focus on one particular part of that post- how much should a woman/couple be earning before she is allowed have a baby?

Enough to maintain the child.. There are young mothers having children with the specific end of getting the state benefits.

However as far as supporting children, I think the support should be there. But there should be a balance and not an abuse of the system.

RonMexico

I think in Spain you get child allowance for your first child only. They should bring that in here.

rightwingdub

scorpioishere wrote: »

For me personally the social welfare benefits are far too much. It should definetely be cut. I know lots of people who are abusing the system and also some lazy one's who doesn't bother to go and look for job. There's job in Ireland unless you are very lazy, fussy and dnt have the academic qualification needed. Irish people think they will go to America or Australia to find jobs but in their mind they are thinking about partying. Also people should think about how many babies they want. If you can afford to look after the baby then its ok. So many people having babies like rabbits and can't look after them properly and have to rely on state benefits/taxpayers money. I even know people who use child benefits money to go on holidays 3/4 times a year. Absolutely disgraceful.

Mandatory sterilisation for all unemployed people me thinks:rolleyes:, no actually if a couple are unemployed and have never sought work I'd have no problem with sterilisation, I'm sick and tired of poor couples moaning about how poor they are after deciding to breed kids like confetti at a wedding, simple solution get themselves sterilised and they won't have to worry about having kids.

On the dole yes it should be cut.

Budget 2011 €167
budget 2012 €155
budget 2013 €150

1) Anyone under 30 (without kids) living at home with their parents should have their dole cut to €100 per week.
2) Between 22-24 inclusive €125 per week.
3) Reduce rent allowance by 40% in Dublin and Cork, smaller reductions in other areas.
4) Cut the OAP to €190 per week.
5) Anyone who has a public sector pension of over €300 per week should be ineligible for a state pension. sliding scale for less than €300 should apply.
6) Ditto with private sector pensions over €300 per week.
7) Someone who turns down 2 job offers should lose all welfare benefits.
8) All single parents under 30 should live at home with their parents unless they are actually working.
9) Place kids into foster care if their parents have been committing welfare fraud for at least 18 months and been working FULL TIME, i'm not too bothered about people doing nixers one or two days a week.

rightwingdub

crayolastereo wrote: »

Lone parent benefits are too high as is the dole, however now is the wrong time to be lowering it. People might not be able to get a job even if they want to now, whereas three years ago they could and still took the dole money. Once more jobs are around we should start lowering social welfare.

One major problem the state can't continue to pay out extremely generous welfare benefits and the state is actually borrwing money off the markets so that social welfare can be paid out.

changes

The UK are getting worried because their welfare bill is at 14% of national spending..... we must be nearer 40% and still no major changes in the pipeline.

rightwingdub

changes wrote: »

The UK are getting worried because their welfare bill is at 14% of national spending..... we must be nearer 40% and still no major changes in the pipeline.

Me thinks that an IMF takeover is what Ireland needs as regards the welfare state. Any single person without kids can get by fine on €150 per week.

alex73

rightwingdub wrote: »

Me thinks that an IMF takeover is what Ireland needs as regards the welfare state. Any single person without kids can get by fine on €150 per week.

If the IMF were called in , all benefits would be cut

rightwingdub

alex73 wrote: »

If the IMF were called in , all benefits would be cut

By how much 40 or 50%?

I support welfare cutbacks in the region of 20-25% but 40-50% is quite extreme.

Brussels Sprout

McDougal wrote: »

What do they invest in? Online gaming, gambling, gold, property speculation or other unless rubbish. Better to take the money off them through progressive taxation and invest it in the real economy. And it's not enough to pay income tax, there also needs to be a wealth tax.

This sounds like the sort of half baked economic plan that Sinn Fein would come up with. It's simplistic and it's foolish. If you were to try and 'take money off of rich people' they are not going to stay for very long. They have the means to leave and enjoy a similar lifestyle somewhere else. What's more you're going to create a disincentive for future entrepeneurs to take the risks required to try and start companies.

Look we'd all like to have great jobs with good benefits. The theory of socialism is great. I totally agree with it. However it doesn't work in practice. For god's sake you've got plenty of examples from the last century to see that it doesn't. Communist countries had to virtually imprison their people and create vast spy networks just to keep them in check. If that's the alternative-where creativity is stifled, the media is censored and individualism is looked down upon give me capitalism (with all it's many many faults) any day of the week. I firmly believe that even in a country like ours with it's rotten political and state bodies that if you want something and are prepared to work at it then the sky is the limit for you.

scorpioishere

rightwingdub wrote: »

Mandatory sterilisation for all unemployed people me thinks:rolleyes:, no actually if a couple are unemployed and have never sought work I'd have no problem with sterilisation, I'm sick and tired of poor couples moaning about how poor they are after deciding to breed kids like confetti at a wedding, simple solution get themselves sterilised and they won't have to worry about having kids.

On the dole yes it should be cut.

Budget 2011 €167
budget 2012 €155
budget 2013 €150

1) Anyone under 30 (without kids) living at home with their parents should have their dole cut to €100 per week.
2) Between 22-24 inclusive €125 per week.
3) Reduce rent allowance by 40% in Dublin and Cork, smaller reductions in other areas.
4) Cut the OAP to €190 per week.
5) Anyone who has a public sector pension of over €300 per week should be ineligible for a state pension. sliding scale for less than €300 should apply.
6) Ditto with private sector pensions over €300 per week.
7) Someone who turns down 2 job offers should lose all welfare benefits.
8) All single parents under 30 should live at home with their parents unless they are actually working.
9) Place kids into foster care if their parents have been committing welfare fraud for at least 18 months and been working FULL TIME, i'm not too bothered about people doing nixers one or two days a week.

I 100% agree with that.

gcgirl

This has been done to death blah blah bleedin blah

irishh_bob

rightwingdub wrote: »

By how much 40 or 50%?

I support welfare cutbacks in the region of 20-25% but 40-50% is quite extreme.

yet you support the idea of forced sterilisation

Denerick

irishh_bob wrote: »

yet you support the idea of forced sterilisation

I'm pretty sure anyone who says that is joking. Unless they've crossed the line between 'right wing' and 'fascist' and couldn't find their way back again...

lmimmfn

nah, we should keep the dole really high and also the minimum wage, that will really help our economy and sure in a few years we'll be the number 1 economy in europe

[/End Sarcasm]

We're borrowing now for the first time to pay fecking dole, i.e. we cant afford it, the dole amount should be whatevers in the coffers, if we havnt got it because the tax revenue isint high enough, reduce the dole by the amount required( if theres nothing there, reduce dole to uk amounts, if noone on the dole is happy with that then feck off somewhere else( maybe the uk and go on the dole there ) and get a job( jebus those of us working are considering it, but the option isint there if youre on the dole? )

rightwingdub

irishh_bob wrote: »

yet you support the idea of forced sterilisation

Only for couples who have never bothered their arses working as well as criminals who rape or murder children. In those cirumstances I don't have a problem with compulsory sterilisation.

hoyanto

So much for the so called reputation of boards.ie eh?

To all the right wing closet Yankee capitalists in this thread moaning about how there is work out there if only people were bothered to look for it. Well, about 350,000 + people who have lost their jobs in the last 18 to 24 months would argue quite readily that you are full of SH1T!!!!!

Even minimum wage jobs are scarce on the ground with many possible employers being overwhelmed by thousands of applicants for the most menial jobs out there.

What you all seem to hide from is the simple truth that the only reason the welfare bill is so huge is because of the mismanagement of this economy and the resulting attendant banking crisis and furthermore the public finances situation as a direct result because of it. The Government of this nation, fixated on development led GDP growth adhered to completely pro cyclical fiscal policies that engendered massive tax forgivings for the wealthy elite of this nation while all the while ignoring the obvious need to temper progress and build any form of viable reserves for the inevitable outcome, the recession we are now faced with.

Now the funny part is that the righties on the board have swallowed the cuts cuts cuts mantra (like any good servant on his knees is inclined to swallow) and literally throw the baby out with the bath water. Ireland will not emerge from this crisis by slashing the minimum wage and cutting social welfare payments by any large amount. Such actions will only serve to further deflate the economy while successive governments will grapple with further deteriorating economic conditions because one simple fact of capitalism will continue to be over looked.

You have to invest capital to make money. In the case of Ireland this means that this nation has to invest money in getting people back to work for two very simple reasons.

1: they won't be getting social welfare payments if they are working thereby reducing the SW bill that so many on this board seem to hold as the ruin of this country (though I would argue it more likely that failed taxation policies and poor fiscal management of the boom would be a better place to start to look for blame, oh and the banks lol).

2: once they are working they can pay tax again and hence the public finance problems will be reversed.


Now I know the same bunch of people are going to hop in and say "but we have no money to create jobs" or "there is no money left to get people back to work".

And of course you will be aware that there is only one response needed. We don't have a choice. Ireland cannot continue for a prolonged period of time (Japan's ten year zomby economy etc.) to keep such a large percentage of the populace out of work. Literally the consequences will never be the same!!!

We are in a veritable catch 22. We can't afford to continue in the hole we are in and taking the corrective measures that this Government seem set upon will only further exacerbate the problem and prolong the inevitable deflationary spiral we are caught in. And on the other hand we cannot seem to afford to take anti cyclical measures that are truly needed to lift the nation out of this deflationary trap.

So we come back to the capitalism argument once again. If the rich of this country (who are so happy to now tell us they are no longer rich), want to be rich again then they are going to have to find a way to put some of their non existent money back in to the economy and get people back to work so that there will be enough people working to actually sustain this silly little unimportant backwater island of fools economy.

If you want to simply hark on about where these jobs are supposed to come from then fine go ahead. I can't answer that in any meaningful sense. I would argue that there has to be some jobs to be found in renewable energy, food and agri businesses, financial services or hell maybe even indigenous manufacturing and exports especially in the pharmachem and biomedical fields and don't forget the smart economy lads. Oh Christ we really are screwed.

Head The Wall

Thats a lot of wasted words to actually say nothing

irishh_bob

rightwingdub wrote: »

Only for couples who have never bothered their arses working as well as criminals who rape or murder children. In those cirumstances I don't have a problem with compulsory sterilisation.

and i thought i was right wing :eek:

thier is no way i would want to see the state have that much power ,by all means , reduce benefits drastically but not only should people have the right to be wreckless with thier finances , they should also have the right to be foolish with thier bodies

irishh_bob

Head The Wall wrote: »

Thats a lot of wasted words to actually say nothing

show and tell

hoyanto

Head The Wall wrote: »

Thats a lot of wasted words to actually say nothing

Sure Head 2 Ball, and your contributions to this thread have been ever so enlightening. Look simple facts are that even if the Government are to drastically cuts social welfare rates, they have made and will make no serious effort to create actual employment on any scale that will address the problem. And sure they might succeed in reducing a portion of the social welfare bill people have to keep in mind that Job Seekers payments aren't even the largest single category of payments that are made through the DoSP. This Government has decided that it's job creation strategy is to sort out the banks and then to blindfold itself with the rhetoric and pure waffle of "The Smart Economy". That's not a plan, that is economic suicide.

Anyway it's all just a bit too much of a joke really. When you have people like Rightwingdub advocating the forced sterilization of unemployed people in a thread then you know the time for serious and balanced discussion has long since passed.

I am however amused by you dropping in to a thread and making laughable threats about other posters cringe worthy comments being decimated by much smarter people. Nothing quite as scary as being called out on an internet forum by the equivalent to the loudmouth kid at the playground who runs away to find one of the big boys to deal with the people he doesn't like.

Idbatterim

maybe all those dole claiming world of warcraft players, could turn their hobby into cash. (See below link)

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_18/b3982001.htm

The gob****es in goverment here are always going on about the smart economy and attracting software development and gaming industry companies:)

Head The Wall

hoyanto wrote: »

Sure Head 2 Ball, and your contributions to this thread have been ever so enlightening. Look simple facts are that even if the Government are to drastically cuts social welfare rates, they have made and will make no serious effort to create actual employment on any scale that will address the problem. And sure they might succeed in reducing a portion of the social welfare bill people have to keep in mind that Job Seekers payments aren't even the largest single category of payments that are made through the DoSP. This Government has decided that it's job creation strategy is to sort out the banks and then to blindfold itself with the rhetoric and pure waffle of "The Smart Economy". That's not a plan, that is economic suicide.

Anyway it's all just a bit too much of a joke really. When you have people like Rightwingdub advocating the forced sterilization of unemployed people in a thread then you know the time for serious and balanced discussion has long since passed.

I am however amused by you dropping in to a thread and making laughable threats about other posters cringe worthy comments being decimated by much smarter people. Nothing quite as scary as being called out on an internet forum by the equivalent to the loudmouth kid at the playground who runs away to find one of the big boys to deal with the people he doesn't like.

Who's Head 2 Ball, are you in the wrong thread?